View Full Version : OK, I am narrowed down to two choices here..
JohnnyGunns
05-01-13, 22:39
First off thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my "new guy, new buyer" post about a week ago. I read every response and took the advice given. I went out again and took a look at a few different AR's, and I am down to two that I feel would be a good first purchase for myself... What are your guys thoughts on these two, and what are the ups and downs of either?
I am between a Colt LE6920 MP-B $1299.99 (I think this Colt comes with a lot of Magpul accessories too which is nice, right?)
Or a Smith and Wesson M&P15T $1159.00
absolutely no proof out there that says a S&W isn't on par OR better than Colt.
While s&w is a good firearm, this statement is false. Google the m4 chart and stack them up side by side and the Colt wins every time. Just the specs alone in the rifle is your proof.
If it is between Colt and Smith, go with the Colt you will be much happier. Colt has done more testing and been proven longer than Smith.
In MY opinion you can't really go wrong with either. There are a few things to consider tho.
Colt, they have a very good name and they make killer rifles. They dident get their reputation by chance. With a Colt you will get a full auto carrier if that matters, you will have a fixed front sight and a chrome lined barrel.
The Smith,
Some of the best CS in the industry. Low profile gas block, if you want to swap out the rail down the rode it will be easier then if you have a fixed front sight.
Those are the things that jump out at me. If you are going to keep this as your first rifle and leave it mostly stock and then get another one and make it how you want it then I would go with the Colt. But if you want one gun that you will upgrade down the rode then I would go with the Smith.
Either way they will both be great guns.
Magic_Salad0892
05-01-13, 23:04
Both are good rifles. Colt has A LOT of problems with lowers when it comes to cosmetics, so be sure to check thoroughly when inspecting it.
A lot of people will recommend Colt for the simple fact the Military has used it before... I guess that makes it (Good to go). But, there's absolutely no proof out there that says a S&W isn't on par OR better than Colt.
Also, that Colt price is very high for that model, from prices I've seen around my area. IF.... you want to save up another $200... you can get a Daniel Defense M4 which is a very good top-tier quality AR, better than Colt & S&W in my opinion.
The fail. It burns.
Between those two I would definitely go with the Colt.
I have owned both rifles. I had a 1st gen Smith M&P 15T with all of the Troy accessories and also the LE6920MP-B. Both were great shooting guns. The Smith is heavier weight wise than the colt. Most likely because of the 12" quad rail. I did prefer the 1/7 twist of the Colt over the 1/8 of the Smith, it seemed to hold a tighter group. If it is any indication of my preference, I sold the Smith and kept the Colt. If I had it to do again, I would still keep the Colt. Anyway, just my $0.02
Also, here is a new colt for $1149.99 if you can live with the Magpul FDE.
http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/113259/c/firearms
OP,
The Colt carbine is the standard and many knowledgeable people will tell you this. The S&W is a hobby gun and though the T version may be better than their standard offerings it doesn't compare to Colt.
While s&w is a good firearm, this statement is false. Google the m4 chart and stack them up side by side and the Colt wins every time. Just the specs alone in the rifle is your proof.
There is no chart. And from the URL element page it's outdated as ****.
Between those two, go Colt.
There is no chart. And from the URL element page it's outdated as ****.
Yeah i just noticed that its been shut down.
But still when you compare the quality of the parts and the manufacturing processes side by side the Colt wins. I'm not bashing on S&W, i've owned a couple and they make good guns but they are not quite up to the level for Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, etc.
It doesn't matter if the chart is around or not. The Colt 6920 which is the derivative of the Colt M4 carbine is the standard. They have seen combat from Vietnam-Panama, Gulf War I, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Smith and Wesson has not.
There is no chart. And from the URL element page it's outdated as ****.
glock30_27
05-02-13, 01:10
There is no chart. And from the URL element page it's outdated as ****.
http://gunfacts.webs.com/M4Chart1.gif
Colt.....when getting answers ffrom people make sure you look at there post count usually the higher the count the better advice.
I'd get the Colt LE6920 MP-B which comes with Magpul accessories. Their black MOE stock, grip, hand guard, trigger guard and vertical grip.
My wife bought me a Colt MT6400 Carbine for Christmas and my birthday last year. It's the post-ban compliant version of the LE6920. I've tried a few different things on it that I had and used on my other AR. However, I've settled on a Magpul ACS stock, MIAD grip, their MOE hand guard, trigger guard and I have the vertical grip. I'm still not sure if I'm going to keep the vertical grip on it or not, I go back and forth on it.
Off topic but I went with THIS (http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/smc-1-light-mount-n-slot-w-g2x-tactical-by-surefire/) light and mount combo and THIS (http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/product/qd-micro-mount/) QR sling mount from Impact Weapons Components. Both were simple to install and use with my MOE hand guard.
I'm no AR expert by any means. That said, Colt AR's are usually the AR's in which all others are judged against.
Good luck and let us know which one you end up getting.
NYH1.
It doesn't matter if the chart is around or not. The Colt 6920 which is the derivative of the Colt M4 carbine is the standard. They have seen combat from Vietnam-Panama, Gulf War I, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Smith and Wesson has not.
This. This cat knows his shit when it comes to weapons. Colt's 6920 is THE standard for the civilian market. You can get more expensive/possibly better rifles, but the 6920 is the standard. Smiths are between colt and dpms quality wise.
JohnnyGunns
05-02-13, 04:25
I have owned both rifles. I had a 1st gen Smith M&P 15T with all of the Troy accessories and also the LE6920MP-B. Both were great shooting guns. The Smith is heavier weight wise than the colt. Most likely because of the 12" quad rail. I did prefer the 1/7 twist of the Colt over the 1/8 of the Smith, it seemed to hold a tighter group. If it is any indication of my preference, I sold the Smith and kept the Colt. If I had it to do again, I would still keep the Colt. Anyway, just my $0.02
Also, here is a new colt for $1149.99 if you can live with the Magpul FDE.
http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/113259/c/firearms
Is this the exact same colt as I named above, the LE6920MP-B but just not in the black? It's the exact same weapon with the same Magpul accessories correct, just in that different color.
I have both of those guns. The S&W is okay but the Colt is the true winner. The colt has the h buffer, a FA BCG, 1/7 barrel and has a correct gas port. S&W has carbine buffer, semi BCG, 1/8 barrel (mines 1/9), and is over gassed. Only thing i wish is Colt made a 16" midlength. Go with the Colt.
Redbeardsong
05-02-13, 07:48
The Colt is the better rifle. Smith makes very good guns, and for most people's use they will be great, but they are not quite the same spec as the Colt. Smith does use 7075 receivers, mil spec receiver extensions, and HPT bolts, but most of their guns have A 4140 steel barrel instead of 4150 (the Moe Mid has a 4150CMV barrel), and they use semi-auto bolt carrier groups. The semi BGC isn't a major issue if the gas system is tuned for it (LMT uses semi BCGs, too) but a full auto BCG can help improve reliability.
Also, which M&P15T? There were two versions made. The current version (SKU: 811041) has Magpul sights, a cheaper (but lighter) rail, and a Melonited 1/8 5R rifled 4140 barrel. (Although I would inspect the actual gun you buy. The M&P Sports have changed recently from a 1/8 5R barrel to a 1/9, I believe, and I think these were using the same barrels.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_786010_-1_757785_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
The old version (811001) had the better Troy sights, Troy rail (which was heavy) and a 1/9 Chrome Lined barrel. It was a lot more expensive than the new version.
http://clydearmory.com/smith-and-wesson-m-p15t-rifle.html
I'm guessing, from price you listed, that it is the new version. That's full MSRP, and at that price I would definitely buy the Colt.
Redbeardsong
05-02-13, 07:50
Speaking of price gouging...
http://nationalarmory.info/shop/viewitem.php?productid=2
Aside from the fact that Colt is the AR standard, the Colt will hold its value better then the Smith. Just another notch for the Colt.
Speaking of price gouging...
http://nationalarmory.info/shop/viewitem.php?productid=2
Yikes! I was looking to see where it said "select fire", lol!
davidjinks
05-02-13, 08:05
End of thread!
Excellent advice here OP.
OP,
The Colt carbine is the standard and many knowledgeable people will tell you this. The S&W is a hobby gun and though the T version may be better than their standard offerings it doesn't compare to Colt.
skijunkie55
05-02-13, 08:31
First off thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my "new guy, new buyer" post about a week ago. I read every response and took the advice given. I went out again and took a look at a few different AR's, and I am down to two that I feel would be a good first purchase for myself... What are your guys thoughts on these two, and what are the ups and downs of either?
I am between a Colt LE6920 MP-B $1299.99 (I think this Colt comes with a lot of Magpul accessories too which is nice, right?)
Or a Smith and Wesson M&P15T $1159.00
http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/products2.cfm/ID/113256/c/firearms
your colt for the S&W Price
The_War_Wagon
05-02-13, 08:31
Colt!
/thread.
I own both. I shoot both. I like both of them, but between the two...
Colt.
The Colt is the standard against which all the others are compared. My S&W, while I like it a lot, took some more work to get to where I'm as satisfied with it as I am with the 6920. Granted, I started with an earlier model.
MiamiCracker
05-02-13, 08:53
I had a S&W, it never seemed to be accurate. I have no experience with Colt but with them being the standard you should go for it.
Beat Trash
05-02-13, 08:58
Colt.
There is a reason everyone tries to compare various brands of guns to the Colt 6920. In my profession, we call that, "A Clue".
While there are brands out there that I feel can compare to the Colt 6920, the S&W isn't one of them.
The semi BGC isn't a major issue if the gas system is tuned for it (LMT uses semi BCGs, too) but a full auto BCG can help improve reliability.
Most S&W's are over gassed so a heavier buffer is necessary.
I have both of those guns. The S&W is okay but the Colt is the true winner. The colt has the h buffer, a FA BCG, 1/7 barrel and has a correct gas port. S&W has carbine buffer, semi BCG, 1/8 barrel (mines 1/9), and is over gassed. Only thing i wish is Colt made a 16" midlength. Go with the Colt.
Why does the Colt need the H buffer if it isn't overgassed also?
All 16" carbines are overgassed somewhat by design.
JohnnyGunns
05-02-13, 10:56
So after all of this I am definately going with the Colt! I have one other question however.. The Colt I looked at was the LE6920MP-B. What is the LE6920MP-FDE that people have metioned on this thread? Are these two the exact same guns, with the same Magpul accessories, but the FDE is in that earthy color instead of black? In other words, LE6920MP-B and LE6920MP-FDE are exactly the same but its just a color difference, correct? If so, I like the color of the FDE.
skijunkie55
05-02-13, 10:58
So after all of this I am definately going with the Colt! I have one other question however.. The Colt I looked at was the LE6920MP-B. What is the LE6920MP-FDE that people have metioned on this thread? Are these two the exact same guns, with the same Magpul accessories, but the FDE is in that earthy color instead of black? In other words, LE6920MP-B and LE6920MP-FDE are exactly the same but its just a color difference, correct? If so, I like the color of the FDE.
Correct.
justin_247
05-02-13, 11:06
Why does the Colt need the H buffer if it isn't overgassed also?
No... the 14.5" guns, like the 6921, have H-buffers, as well.
All 16" carbines are overgassed somewhat by design.
Somewhat true, but many lower tier guns require not just an H-buffer... some require an H2 or H3 buffer.
Speaking of price gouging...
http://nationalarmory.info/shop/viewitem.php?productid=2
Looks like they are positioning themselves as competition to CTD :happy:
So after all of this I am definately going with the Colt! I have one other question however.. The Colt I looked at was the LE6920MP-B. What is the LE6920MP-FDE that people have metioned on this thread? Are these two the exact same guns, with the same Magpul accessories, but the FDE is in that earthy color instead of black? In other words, LE6920MP-B and LE6920MP-FDE are exactly the same but its just a color difference, correct? If so, I like the color of the FDE.
Yes, I believe "FDE" means "flat dark earth" and it appears those two guns are the same with the exception of the color of the Magpul goodies.
RogerinTPA
05-02-13, 17:26
Although S&W has stepped up their quality game over the years, in the end, it's still a commercial grade gun, but I'll take it over a RRA, Stag, or OLY arms anyday of the week. In your case, Colt should be the clear choice. If you don't want to take our advice, then do some research around here, and it will bring you back to the same conclusion.
What everyone else has said: Colt. I have a 6920 and have not had one single problem with it. Like it has been said, the Colt rifle is the standard. This decision should be very easy to make especially when the prices are pretty close between the two.
Although S&W has stepped up their quality game over the years, in the end, it's still a commercial grade gun, but I'll take it over a RRA, Stag, or OLY arms anyday of the week. In your case, Colt should be the clear choice. If you don't want to take our advice, then do some research around here, and it will bring you back to the same conclusion.
I don't get the why people act like Stag makes an inferior gun. Stag's are by far the best bang for your buck. Fit, finish, qc and customer service is top notch, just wish they used 1/7 barrels. I'd take one over an s&w, rra or Sig any day of the week. Granted its no colt.
RogerinTPA
05-02-13, 20:31
I don't get the why people act like Stag makes an inferior gun. Stag's are by far the best bang for your buck. Fit, finish, qc and customer service is top notch, just wish they used 1/7 barrels. I'd take one over an s&w, rra or Sig any day of the week. Granted its no colt.
FYI, most do not care about 'fit & finish' here. We care about performance and quality. For most of the people on this forum, who actually use, train with and expect a hard use quality firearm, that's MilSpec according to the actual TDP of an M4 platform (Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, LMT, KAC), that we can stake ours and our families lives on, it is inferior for our purposes. It has been proven time and time again here, with actual data. I'm not slamming any of the commercial platforms I mentioned, but it is not for most of us here on this forum. If you own one, good on you. Take it to a couple of high round count carbine classes and let us know how it did. We, (well pre Sandy Hook anyway), actually shoot and run our guns pretty hard. I used to personally shoot around 10K rounds 223/556 and 8K for pistol per year, spread over 5 ARs, 4 pistols. Compared to some, thats on the low end. You might want to take a look around, do some reading of all the subjects that are stickied here and get a feel for what M4C is about. As a technical forum specifically designed around the M4 platform, the research has been done years ago. I suggest you do some research of your own...or not, it's up to you.
I have a Colt MT6400 Carbine (post-ban compliant LE6920) and a Stag Model 1 Carbine with their plus package.
Here are the spec's on my Stag-
Bolt & Bolt Carrier-
Bolt Material- Carpenter 158, shot peened (fixture method).
HPT bolt (100%) HPT bolt round M197 or SAAMI equivalent.
MPI bolt (100%), MPI bolt rejection- cracks & inclusions.
Spring Extractor 5.
Extractor Spring Buffer- black.
Shrouded Full Circle M16 Carrier, side staked carrier key.
Barrel & Upper Receiver-
Barrel Steel- 4150.
HPT barrel (100%).
HPT barrel round- SAAMI equivalent to M197.
MPI barrel (100%).
MPI barrel rejection- cracks & inclusions.
Chamber- 5.56.
1 in 7 twist rate, chrome lining barrel & chamber.
Barrel Feedramps- M4 extended.
Upper Feedramps- before anodizing.
FSB- "F", FSB Pins- taper pins, Finish Under FSB- yes.
Heat Shields- double.
Lower-
R.E. Diameter- 1.14", R.E.
Material- 7000 series.
Castle Nut- staking,
Buffer- H (3.6 oz)
My Stag is a heck of a carbine for the $840 I paid for it. I do like my Colt better. That's mainly because I set my Colt up the way I want it. My Stag only has the things my son (12) likes. A MOE stock, grip, trigger guard and hand guard all black.
NYH1.
Somewhat true, but many lower tier guns require not just an H-buffer... some require an H2 or H3 buffer.
It would be interesting to see the 6920 with a H2 or H3... even with weaker ammo. I have read mutiple times about 6920's using Tula/Wolf ammo just fine.
On the flip side of that I wonder how a 6920 would do with a carbine buffer and if it would show the same signs as other 16" "commercial" brand would show of being over gassed.
I am not sure on this, but do all BCM, DD, LMT, etc. (top tier) 16" carbines come with H buffers?
I just believe the over gassed argument is a bit overplayed with 16" carbines, regardless if they are a "top tier or commercial".
They do, for a reason, and it's not "overplayed."
It's just that enough folks shoot cheap, lo-pressure .223 crap through their hobby-guns that they'll not see the symptoms of an overgassed gun because their gas ports are usually oversized. The ammo's not generating a lot of pressure in relation to correct 5.56 levels, but enough gas is getting to the system to make it operate correctly.
Mr. Wyndham and his ilk ginned up the way they were gonna build their guns based upon the idea that the average American schlub that wants an AR is gonna shoot almost nothing but Remington UMC .223 or similar garbage (relative term). When we get down to cases, they were right. They weren't dumb, most of their material and assembly shortcuts are purely toward max possible reduction of manufacturing costs, and sale to folks that'll do little more serious with the things that shoot clay pidgeons strewn on a hillside (which isn't pejorative in the least, it's *America*, we're supposed to do that stuff)
Same schlub goes to something with honest-to-Crom 5.56 pressures, there's a better chance of seeing symptoms because of the oversized gas port and a CAR buffer allowing all a round of proper pressures "overpowering" the usual CoO.
This is not an article of faith. Belief has nothing to do with it. It's not overplayed, it's just not always evident.
It may seem overplayed because the folks who don't know the system and see malfunctions are pretty strident about it. We've all tried something we're not fully boned-up upon, had something go wrong, had our immedate reaction be some analogue of "WTF!? The salesman LIED TO ME!!", and start cursing or typing in all-caps.
Then, somebody in the know schools us, and we feel all sheepish because it was pretty simple, and we just didn't know.
Story as old as time. Song as old as rhyme. Beauty and The Beeeeeeassst.
They do, for a reason, and it's not "overplayed."
It's just that enough folks shoot cheap, lo-pressure .223 crap through their hobby-guns that they'll not see the symptoms of an overgassed gun because their gas ports are usually oversized. The ammo's not generating a lot of pressure in relation to correct 5.56 levels, but enough gas is getting to the system to make it operate correctly.
Ok. Then what about all those with non-hobby-guns that fire "lo-pressure .223 crap" just fine from their tier 1 Colt, BCM, DD, etc. 16" carbine? Since they have properly sized gas ports this should not be the case, right? Top tier 16" carbines should be short stroken, especially with their H buffer. This doesn't seem to be the case for the most part from what I have read. In theory, they should not function reliably with "low power crap" since they have properly sized gas ports and an H buffer to boot.
Mr. Wyndham and his ilk ginned up the way they were gonna build their guns based upon the idea that the average American schlub that wants an AR is gonna shoot almost nothing but Remington UMC .223 or similar garbage (relative term). When we get down to cases, they were right. They weren't dumb, most of their material and assembly shortcuts are purely toward max possible reduction of manufacturing costs, and sale to folks that'll do little more serious with the things that shoot clay pidgeons strewn on a hillside (which isn't pejorative in the least, it's *America*, we're supposed to do that stuff).
I guess your referring to the old Bushmaster in Windham, Maine. What proof/evidence do you have of this as their (and other so called commercial brands) reasoning for making their guns with allegedly oversized gas ports? I am not saying this is not the case, but I believe in the possibility that just maybe they are able to fire “low power crap” reliably because of the CAR buffer along with the 16” carbine design.
I am not trying to argue, really.
But my original question would be interesting to see a top tier 16” carbine operate with a CAR buffer.
Between those two choices. Colt is the gold standard.
JSantoro, would you recommend a H buffer when shooting lower level UMC 223 type ammo and a H2 buffer when shooting full power 5.56 ammo? Or will a H buffer work with each? Or is the gas system itself the issue and not the buffers? I'm talking 16" carbine length gas system.
Thanks, NYH1.
Like hell you're not trying to argue. :D
You're also not asking a question that hasn't been discussed umpty-squat times over, directly or indirectly, anecdotally and objectively in any number of existing threads, starting with the Knowledge Base stickies. Beyond that, existing M4C threads about buffers, action springs, gas system lengths, SA/FA bolt carriers, gas port sizing. One thing bleeds over into the other, and can make one start chasing the mice running about in one's head.
Fortunately, you don't need to take my word for it, even in terms of how it's not an original question. Mr. Pannone has....ahh...a certain level of familiarity with these guns and his own section aboard M4C, and encapsulates it better than just about any of us can: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97540
From my experience I have seen no difference in the reliability of the system either way as long as the proper action spring/buffer weight are used. The middy's shoot a little softer but I shot a Noveske 14.5 N4 barrel until it wouldn't hold groups (it crapped out at about 23,000) and it was a spectacularly reliable gun. I shot a BCM 14.5 out at about 12,000 rds. and it was also as reliable as any rifle I've ever owned. The advent of the middy was an attempt to match the gas system to the barrel length which was originally a problem with the civilian 16" barreled guns with the 7.5" gas system and a port drilled for the 14.5”. The addition of 1.5" from the military configuration (14.5"bbl>7.5"tube) over-gassed an already over-gassed design. The 14.5 over gassing was by design for reliability under adverse combat conditions. The 16" over-gassing on top of that was an oversight and a desire to use existing tooling and parts..
I'd recommend not using UMC and the like in the first place, so you don't have to fret over component swaps, though that's hard to state without it coming off as dickish, given 1) the state of the market, and 2) I don't have dependents, so all my money's mine. I simply won't buy anything but 5.56 ammo, and even then, I want to know what the MV is before I buy it (...and the BC, but that doesn't apply to CoO). Knowing that almost all of us are feverishly refreshing GunBot and AmmoSeek and buying up what we can stomach to buy, when we can, the immediate above is probably stupendously unhelpful, right...? :(
Here's what I've done:
I have a 14.5" Noveske carbine-length gas, and a 14.5" BCM mid-length. Both fire 5.56-pressure stuff just dandy. Both use H buffers. given the choice, I prefer shooting the mid-length.
I've kept the carbine-length gun, instead of having matching systems, because I know that Noveske will eat anything I put in it, whereas I've had reliability issues show up when shooting lesser ammo types out of the BCM (which BCM and DD specify may happen with mid-length gas, the product descriptions)....which prompted me to ensure that I had one of each standard weight of buffer on-hand, just in case. AND so that there were extra, different-weight buffers on-hand in case some other individual I might be shooting with had relaibility issues that might be solved by bumping up or down in buffer weight. Yeah yeah, I'm a caring nurturer...
I have extra, easily-transported components like that on-hand, all the time. A carbine's barrel/gas system length is irrelevant to me. With the huge variations of ammo that the everyday shooter uses, and the batch problems that can spring up within one type, for get multiple types...ANY configuration can cock up. Fortune favors the prepared, not the roll-mark on the lower.
Put to a choice, I'd lean toward the Colt, and shoot the piss out of it as best I could. The S&W offerings are really decent, with the overgassed (oversized gas port) being valid, but not enough to be a show-stopper. To this day, I'd buy one with confidence, and have CAR, H, and H2 buffers on-hand and shoot the piss out of it so I had a frame of rererence upon which to decide which buffer (or "buffers," sometimes a gun can straddle the threshold between two of them) provide the greatest reliability.
FYI, most do not care about 'fit & finish' here. We care about performance and quality. For most of the people on this forum, who actually use, train with and expect a hard use quality firearm, that's MilSpec according to the actual TDP of an M4 platform (Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, LMT, KAC), that we can stake ours and our families lives on, it is inferior for our purposes. It has been proven time and time again here, with actual data. I'm not slamming any of the commercial platforms I mentioned, but it is not for most of us here on this forum. If you own one, good on you. Take it to a couple of high round count carbine classes and let us know how it did. We, (well pre Sandy Hook anyway), actually shoot and run our guns pretty hard. I used to personally shoot around 10K rounds 223/556 and 8K for pistol per year, spread over 5 ARs, 4 pistols. Compared to some, thats on the low end. You might want to take a look around, do some reading of all the subjects that are stickied here and get a feel for what M4C is about. As a technical forum specifically designed around the M4 platform, the research has been done years ago. I suggest you do some research of your own...or not, it's up to you.
I bet a stag would fair just fine through a high round carbine class. I don't currently own a stag but have in the past, they put out a quality product. I feel like stag gets a bad rap because of its price point. They're no Colt by any means (current le6290 owner),but they're not far behind. Just my 2 cents..
I myself plan on taking a carbine class when the ammo starts becoming plentiful and cheap.
Grand58742
05-03-13, 17:57
I've kept the carbine-length gun, instead of having matching systems, because I know that Noveske will eat anything I put in it, whereas I've had reliability issues show up when shooting lesser ammo types out of the BCM (which BCM and DD specify may happen with mid-length gas, the product descriptions)....which prompted me to ensure that I had one of each standard weight of buffer on-hand, just in case. AND so that there were extra, different-weight buffers on-hand in case some other individual I might be shooting with had relaibility issues that might be solved by bumping up or down in buffer weight. Yeah yeah, I'm a caring nurturer...
I have extra, easily-transported components like that on-hand, all the time. A carbine's barrel/gas system length is irrelevant to me. With the huge variations of ammo that the everyday shooter uses, and the batch problems that can spring up within one type, for get multiple types...ANY configuration can cock up. Fortune favors the prepared, not the roll-mark on the lower.
I have been experimenting with different ammo with my two mid lengths (BCM and DD V3) with an H and H2: .223 Barnaul (Silver Bear 62gr), .223 Tula (62 gr), .223 PMC (Bronze 55 gr), .223 Prvi (55 gr blue box) and 5.56 M193 spec (PMC and CBC). Like you I was unsure of buffer weight but didn't bring along spares until AFTER I had issues with the Tula. I had short stroking problems in both the carbines while running an H. After that outing, I've started carrying a spare carbine buffer and H, but tested with an H2 mainly. I have yet to run into an issue with any .223 powered stuff cycling the actions on an H2 save the Tula. Having said that, I probably won't buy steel cased again (range restrictions around here) and will attempt to stick to brass case. The Prvi and PMC Bronze seem like acceptable alternatives that cycle like they are supposed to so they will be on my radar for range ammo.
Having said that, I did have a Palmetto mid length upper with an FN barrel that ate the Tula on an H and H2 buffer with zero problems...not sure if the gas port on those are larger or what.
I know I'm a statistic of one without a high round count of any one in particular on the BCM or DD and have stuck to the same lot numbers on each...maybe five to six mags of each total, but running an H2 on lower powered ammo in a mid length hasn't caused serious problems for me yet. I still toss in the additional buffers just in case on range days, but my SHTF load works just fine on an H2 (RA556B in a two box test) so I'm comfortable with keeping it in at all times.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-03-13, 19:12
I bet a stag would fair just fine through a high round cabinet class.
A Stag probably would do better through a cabinet class than a carbine class.
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