View Full Version : Odd Project - the 'Boat Gun'
So recently a fellow on another site asked the community at large (handgun oriented site, not rifle oriented) about a decent boat gun. He goes boating on fairly extended trips into the Caribbean, so the salt water is obviously a concern. His original thoughts were on a Ruger Mini 14 in stainless steel, and wasn't interested in the first suggestion I had (marine shotgun with a rifled bore). He wanted a rifle, specifically, settling on an AR-15.
The idea is pretty simple: an AR-15 is more easily customizable and make it more resistant to corrosion from salt water. Things progressed a bit before myself and another guy came up with a theoretical idea of what we think would be a workable plan for the guy to have an AR-15 that would be appropriate for his needs. Truthfully, I believe it to be a pretty sound idea.
Tear it apart as you guys feel necessary. My only experience with metal and salt water comes from scuba diving, where I've moved to titanium knives after the 'stainless steel' Leatherman on deck, exposed only to ocean spray, corroded in the course of two seven-hour days in the Atlantic.
Lower: Cavalry Arms CAV-MKII polymer lower. The few I've handled in person left me with a pretty good impression for being sturdy and durable, and polymer is obviously pretty resistant to corrosion.
Upper: RRA Stripped A2. Simple, basic sights, not sure if there's any upper specifically that's going to be better than others in resisting corrosion.
BCG: Young Manufacturing Chrome M16 BCG seems like the best way to go here, but the Bravo Company ion bonded one might work too. I don't know enough about it specifically.
Barrel: White Oak Armament 16" .223 stainless steel barrel. It's a mid-length, lightweight contour barrel from a company who I've only seen good reviews of. Again, because this is a purpose-built rifle I'm under the impression that the stainless steel barrel is going to be better off than a standard chrome-lined one.
Handguards: Basic mid-length handguards from RRA (with the aluminum heat shield). Like the upper, I don't know if there's any particular handguard that's more resistant to corrosion than another; I think Magpul had a new set of handguards but I don't know anything about them (including whether or not they're even available).
The lower parts kit and remaining parts for the upper (literally, all of the other parts to complete the upper assembly) are a bit of a concern for me; to the best of my knowledge, most seem to be made out of the same materials so all would be equally susceptible to corrosion from salt water.
So, thoughts? Am I on the right track or taking this corrosion thing too seriously (or completely underestimating the finishes of AR-15s as-is)?
-B
I would go with a Noveske flat-top upper and an Aimpoint and some simple BUIS. THe A2 sights have a lot of internal nooks and crannies that may/may not be succeptable to corrosion.
The reason for Noveske is the M249 spec chrome-lining. Stainless, as you already stated WILL rust, and the difference between regular steel and stainless is that when stainless rusts, it is much more prone to pitting--not good. The chrome-lined bore should be better at resisting corrosion.
Also, a chrome-lined gas-key wouldn't hurt. Some BCG's come with them, some don't. My Sabre did as do most Colt's I have seen.
You could then send off the internals (trigger, hammer, ect.) as well as the other small-parts and have them NP3 plated. The same goes for the barrel and other metal parts. In fact, you could NP3 the whole weapon I belive. (except for polymer parts).
Stay away from chrome-silicone springs, they like to rust even inland.
What you outlined would work fine if you took care of it, but I am just throwing in all the CDI mods/parts that I think could do it a little better.
That's a good point on the upper; initially I wanted to go with the A2 because it would save money (not having to buy optics), but your argument is a good one.
Also, good catch on the barrel; I don't know why that didn't occur to me earlier. If stainless steel barrels are more susceptible to corrosion, the Noveske N4 16" middy barrel is a good option, too.
The NP3 thing I hadn't heard of before, but will definitely keep in mind. Could this coating put on a rifle effectively "salt-water-proof" the rifle better than any build like I'm posting here would? If so, that's definitely a route to go, though I'm still thinking the Cav Arms lower might be a good option to keep.
-B
This for external surfaces:
http://www.robarguns.com/roguard.htm
This for internals:
http://www.robarguns.com/np3.htm
Yes, have your pocketbook ready :D
This for internals:
http://www.robarguns.com/np3.htm
Yes, have your pocketbook ready :D
Hm. Hmmmmm. You know, this project started as just a mental exercise for someone else, but now...
It's a conspiracy to make me spend money, I tell you. Conspiracy!
-B
Hm. Hmmmmm. You know, this project started as just a mental exercise for someone else, but now...
It's a conspiracy to make me spend money, I tell you. Conspiracy!
-B
I bet that NP3 would slick up a trigger pull...:cool:
I've spent more time than I care to remember deployed aboard ship as a Marine or in coastal environments. Any weapon with steel parts will need to be maintained. This is where I think CLP really shines.
All weapons had to be cleaned every week or two weeks max that were just sitting in the rack. This included our rifles and crew served weapons.
The polymer and stainless parts sound like a good idea but there those steal parts will need some attention on a regular basis. And of course CLP attracts dust etc.
I'd definitely opt for a Chrome lined mil type barrel over stainless. The bore would be much more resistant to corrosion, and the external surfaces are easy enough to maintain with CLP and visual inspection.
Duracote the exterior and internal parts. Send the BCG to IonBond for the Diamondblack (or buy one that way) or their Chromium Nitride finish. Done.
Submariner
03-28-08, 15:50
That's a good point on the upper; initially I wanted to go with the A2 because it would save money (not having to buy optics), but your argument is a good one.-B
If you were to truly encounter Caribbean "pirates,"would cost matter that much? Would you not prefer to get solid hits? Get an Aimpoint. Ever shot at night with irons? Get a light and an Aimpoint. Eothingies are having battery corrosion and other battery contact issues. Check out the thread on LF.
what is the legality of tooling around non-US waters armed with an assault rifle? Not knocking the idea by any means, self defense is a natural right, no matter what legislators may say. just wondering....
also, i believe there's a corrosion inhibiting bag out there that would be a perfect place to store a rifle like this. obviously corrosion proofing the rifle as well would be good.
5.56 is great for my needs on dry land, but if I were headed out to sea, I'd want a 7.62, particularly for penetration of things like the hull of another boat full of people intent on doing me harm. An FAL or M1A would work for me.
Of course, I don't think "one gun" would cut it for me, either. I'd also want a 12ga with both buckshot and slugs. What the .308 won't penetrate, the slugs probably will.
This thread brings back memories, I sold A LOT of Colt AR-15A2 Carbines, Ruger Stainless Mini-14's, Remington and Winchester Marine/Mariner shotguns, and S&W stainless 5906's and 4506's back in the 80's to guys who took their boats down into the Caribean.
Hopefully they never got used.
Failure2Stop
03-28-08, 20:08
Interesting thread.
I have spent lots of time in and under salt water with ARs. I have yet to see any aluminum parts corrode. I see no reason to eschew a standard lower in favor of a polymer, other than to save a little money, which I do not agree with either (that is cost/benefit heavily skewed in favor of cost instead of benefit).
Ever shot at night with irons?
...That's very true. That completely slipped my mind. I've personally never used anything but irons on a rifle (excluding the cheap $30 my dad put on his 10/22), so I'd have to find someone willing to let me "trial" their Aimpoint/Eotech/Trijicon before I put down the money for one. Aimpoint's look nice, never even seen an Eotech except at the range, and ACOG's are really nice... (and out of my price range, though I hear tale of a micro ACOG that's less expensive?).
Rhino, that's partly why I tried to sell the idea of a rifled shotgun. Slugs are going to hurt a boat a lot more than a 5.56 will, even if it's something like attacking an engine or whatever. Granted, a slug gun will probably not do much better than 150m-200m (100 is the furthest I've ever experienced shooting with), and to your point the 7.62 is going to reach out and touch quite a bit better. I think one of the important factors is cost, though; I'm mostly a "buy it once" sort (hard to be when tuition costs what it does :rolleyes:), but I can't speak for others.
Failure, I see what you're saying, but my reasoning behind the polymer lower is purely theoretical. I've seen 'em, and like them, and I can see why they might be of benefit. How much of a benefit... no idea. I've never carried a rifle in a salt water environment.
So what I gather is this: pick your preferred rifle (whatever it is), determine whether or not you can trust your life to it, then NP3 the internals, get chrome-lined where you can, and rub Slip 2000 into the outside metal surfaces and you're as good to go as you can get?
-B
Submariner
03-29-08, 10:54
5.56 is great for my needs on dry land, but if I were headed out to sea, I'd want a 7.62, particularly for penetration of things like the hull of another boat full of people intent on doing me harm. An FAL or M1A would work for me.
Of course, I don't think "one gun" would cut it for me, either. I'd also want a 12ga with both buckshot and slugs. What the .308 won't penetrate, the slugs probably will.
How about a Barrett M82? :D
Even with the FAL or M1A, there is still the issues of a light for low or no light situations and iron sights. It gets pretty dark out there. Fast. No street lights.;)
Steel mags also suck around salt water.
An AR (with Aimpoint, Surefire and P-Mags) and a decent shotgun would probably do it. By the time you would be morally/legally able to shoot, they might be too close to take advantage of extended range of the 7.62mmX51. It's "Repel Boarders!" time: rate of fire over weight of fire. YMMV.
My vote is for a Glock 17 or 19 with martime spring cups. This way you can take it with you if you're diving and be armed when you surface and find pirates on your boat. :D
Oh, don't forget the NATO-spec FMJ with sealed primers.
condition 1
03-30-08, 15:35
This is easy, Just buy a new LMT or Colt ,and Duracoat the snot out of it, put a DD rail ,aimpoint & a good light on it, put it in a pelican case with a few pmags & a box or two of the Blackhills heavy stuff, and -open only in emergency- I would not feel out guned with this set up. :cool: I think it might even float.
I live just outside New Orleans and have spent a lot of time on salt water. Corrosion is an issue. Duracoat is the right answer for the externals. Frequent cleaning and breakfree on the internals.
One question before you go spend a pile of money on treatments... how about a pelican case? The gun is there for 'just in case', right?
I'd vote for the shotgun also. Range is a factor, but I was thinking about the money. I wouldn't go buy an expensive stainless model. I'd buy a used 870 and break out the krylon. If my Remington 870 went overboard, I'm out $200 max. I'll head to the local pawn shop and buy another. If my AR went over, I'm going swimming! Another thought is that slugs would let in a lot more water than .223.
Someone else brought up the legality issue. I've also heard stories about strict gun laws in the Bahamas also. That might be another reason to stick with something disposable. I know some African countries have laws against possession of a 'military' caliber weapon or even its ammo. I don't know the rules down there. What if you have to stop on an island for repairs that wasn't on the agenda? A 12ga shotgun would be easier to explain and would seem less threatening than an AR.
If money isn't an issue at all, then maybe a Tikka over/under in .308/12ga? How about a contender with a few barrels? Maybe .45/70 and either .222 or 6mm ppc? Either of those would be easier to explain to a local as a hunting weapon. "I was heading to the Yucatan to do some hunting when I ran into..." engine problems, pirates, whatever...
Bottom-Line Up Front (BLUF): Research the firearms/weapons laws for the island you’re going to visit (as well as the territorial waters you’ll sail through). That will have to drive your weapons selection or you face a greater risk than pirates if you get legally boarded. You also need to understand what you are legally required to do if legally boarded or when you enter a foreign port.
The legality issue is still unanswered, but is one that can not be ignored. International law recognizes a country's territorial waters as 3 miles (from the shore). The United States claims 12 miles and of course, Libya claims 200 miles. What this means is that a boater must be aware of the laws of the waters in which they are boating and the ports that they visit. Failure to do so will potentially land you in a foreign jail cell.
Since this thread concerns “Pirates of the Caribbean” then I would recommend researching the various islands that you may visit and their territorial waters. Here's an interesting thread on this issue: http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=96497
Bottom-Line Up Front (BLUF): Research the firearms/weapons laws for the island you’re going to visit (as well as the territorial waters you’ll sail through). That will have to drive your weapons selection or you face a greater risk than pirates if you get legally boarded. You also need to understand what you are legally required to do if legally boarded or when you enter a foreign port.
The legality issue is still unanswered, but is one that can not be ignored. International law recognizes a country's territorial waters as 3 miles (from the shore). The United States claims 12 miles and of course, Libya claims 200 miles. What this means is that a boater must be aware of the laws of the waters in which they are boating and the ports that they visit. Failure to do so will potentially land you in a foreign jail cell.
Since this thread concerns “Pirates of the Caribbean” then I would recommend researching the various islands that you may visit and their territorial waters. Here's an interesting thread on this issue: http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=96497
Killjoy, letting leagalities get in the way;)
decodeddiesel
04-01-08, 09:24
Very interesting thread.
The Coast Guard certianly sees the advantage of 7.62 over 5.56 on the high seas given they still use the M14. However one must keep in mind the primary role is to fire highly aimed shots to disable an escaping vessel, not in the defensive role.
I vote for a good shot gun as well, perhaps a Ramington 870 Mariner then add a side saddle stuffed with slugs and buck, flash light, some type of ghost ring night sights, and call it good. Not only will you have the intimidation factor only a pump 12g can give but it will be a hell of a lot easier to explain.
I directed the fellow to this thread, and hope it's better at informing his decision than I am. :D
For those who suggested the shotgun slugs and "poking holes" in the boat, that's exactly what I was going for. A slug gun will definitely have the range out to 100m easy to pop a couple leaks in the hull or even hit an engine if you're lucky, and has a lot more mass to do damage with than even a 7.62 does. Then again, I've never had to go shooting on the "high seas" and have no earthly idea how accurate I'd be (or not be). ;)
-B
I would go with a weapon that holds more rounds than a 870 shotgun as my primary for a couple of reasons. It will probably occur at night and there will probably be multiple perps with multiple weapons. 5-7 rounds is going to be gone in a blink and trying to reload in the dark on a bobbing vessel under fire is a bad idea. Use the shotgun as a back-up. An AR-10 with a good supply of mags is a more formidible weapon and as a semi-auto will allow you to lay down a better volley of firepower and probably better deter multiple threats.
The traditional response to Pirates of course is to return cannon fire, with the modern update perhaps being torpedoes - but those are hard to mount - if you could find a French 75 that would be a good deterrent. ;)
decodeddiesel
04-02-08, 16:12
The traditional response to Pirates of course is to return cannon fire, with the modern update perhaps being torpedoes - but those are hard to mount - if you could find a French 75 that would be a good deterrent. ;)
For that matter why not mount an f'ign M60/240-B in a on your boat? I mean sure the USCG will probably arrest and/or kill you, but you'll be prepared for Jack Sparrow and the Black Pearl when they come around!
In all seriousness, how sporty do you expect it to be down there? If one honestly for sees a need to use an AR to repel a pirate attack while at sea then perhaps an alternate itinerary should be investigated. I just think a good shotgun would avoid all of the possible legal concerns, and would be more than enough firepower for nearly any situation that would arise. Hell you could even bring along a bunch of 12g flares and claim the shotgun is safety equipment!
Yarr! I was being facetious, but it also could depend on the size of the boat and whether power or sail.
I've been interested in sailing for a while and have read about modern pirates - one popular sailing magazine publishes a column of Piracy Reports, most of which seems to occur in the East (India, Bangladesh, Arabia and Africa) rather than Caribbean - where I've learned that most countries are really-really-really gun-unfriendly and make California look like a Free State... Maybe it's their "institutional memory" as pirate colonies?
They're absolutely forbidden in the Turks and Caicos for instance - other places require all kinds of declared-in-advance paperwork - or removal and jail - some places are so prohibitive you can't keep one locked-up on board while at anchor and they must to be removed to the Police Station.
I have heard that sometimes they are more "friendly" to Line-Launcher equipped marine shotguns, like the Mossberg Mariner with the "marinecoat" finish and orange synthetic stock that makes them look un-tactical and like a piece of safety-equipment...
Considering that, maybe being able to ditch a gun at sea is equally important.
decodeddiesel
04-02-08, 17:02
Yarr! I was being facetious, but it also could depend on the size of the boat and whether power or sail.
I've been interested in sailing for a while and have read about modern pirates - one popular sailing magazine publishes a column of Piracy Reports, most of which seems to occur in the East (India, Bangladesh, Arabia and Africa) rather than Caribbean - where I've learned that most countries are really-really-really gun-unfriendly and make California look like a Free State... Maybe it's their "institutional memory" as pirate colonies?
They're absolutely forbidden in the Turks and Caicos for instance - other places require all kinds of declared-in-advance paperwork - or removal and jail - some places are so prohibitive you can't keep one locked-up on board while at anchor and they must to be removed to the Police Station.
I have heard that sometimes they are more "friendly" to Line-Launcher equipped marine shotguns, like the Mossberg Mariner with the "marinecoat" finish and orange synthetic stock that makes them look un-tactical and like a piece of safety-equipment...
Considering that, maybe being able to ditch a gun at sea is equally important.
Sorry to come off as a prick, I knew you were being facetious, as was I.
Back on topic, you made a great point on the legal issues. They have already been discussed here, but should not be dismissed. As you said a Mariner coated shotgun, with perhaps International Orange stocks, with a line launcher attachment, and flares/blanks in the side saddle (buck and slugs available) would probably be the best bet for a "sleeper" weapon.
ETA: Here's the Mossberg line launcher PDF. http://www.mossberg.com/manuals/LineLauncher.pdf A sleeper indeed.
Aw hell I didn't think you were a prick!
And I am genuinely sad that I don't have a sailboat of sufficient size and waterline to host a few Napoleonic-era cannon along her sides because it would look just so amazingly kewl (!!) and be so much fun to sail into port.
And attract chicks!
Also guessing that most modern-day Customs Inspectors would probably disbelieve the utility or even existence of a few semi-functioning 19th Century cannon, call them replicas instead, say "Yarr!" a lot and offer-up a few bottles of rum - they'd just think you were a crazy damn Gringo. ;-)
Still they would be no assistance against a Venezuelan Navy craft or even some other Banana Republic boarding party come to check your paperwork - you need real serious tonnage to resist a Naval vessel of any kind.
Very interesting thread.
The Coast Guard certianly sees the advantage of 7.62 over 5.56 on the high seas given they still use the M14. However one must keep in mind the primary role is to fire highly aimed shots to disable an escaping vessel, not in the defensive role.
I vote for a good shot gun as well, perhaps a Ramington 870 Mariner then add a side saddle stuffed with slugs and buck, flash light, some type of ghost ring night sights, and call it good. Not only will you have the intimidation factor only a pump 12g can give but it will be a hell of a lot easier to explain.
a tacticool'd out pump action is just as "scary" looking as any AR15.
legality wise the pump gun is a lot easier to have in a lot more areas.
Bring a nicely lubed AR or maybe an M1A. They will survive the elements if cared for. Shotguns may be more legal in most areas, but we all know the "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six" philosophy. I would want to be able to reach out to the enemy boat as soon as possible and/or hit them as they flee, not just engage them on my boat.
Anybody desperate and bad enough to be out there pirating is no one I would want to have to try to reason with, let alone get anywhere near my boat.
PARIS, France (AP) -- Pirates seized control of a French luxury yacht carrying 30 crew members Friday in the Gulf of Aden off Somalia's coast, the French government and the ship's owner said.
A handout photo from the French maritime transport company CMA-CGM shows the luxury yacht Le Ponant.
Attackers stormed the three-mast Le Ponant as it returned without passengers from the Seychelles, in the Indian Ocean, toward the Mediterranean Sea, said officials with French maritime transport company CMA-CGM.
"This is a blatant act of piracy," Prime Minister Francois Fillon told reporters while on a visit to Brussels. "The Defense and Foreign ministries are mobilized to act as quickly as possible, I hope in the coming minutes or hours to try to win the freedom of these hostages."
He did not elaborate. France has considerable military resources in the region, including a base in Djibouti and a naval flotilla circulating in the Indian Ocean.
The ship was in the high seas in the Gulf of Aden, off Somalia's coast in the Indian Ocean, the ministry said. At least some of the crew members are French. The company declined to identify any other crew member nationalities.
"French authorities are handling the situation," Jean-Emmanuel Sauvee, managing director of La Compagnie des Iles du Ponant, told reporters in the southeastern city of Marseille, where his subsidiary of CMA-CGM is based. The company did not want to comment further so as not to endanger the crew members held hostage, he said.
According to the company's Web site, the 88-meter (288-foot) boat features four decks, two restaurants, and indoor and outdoor luxury lounges. It can hold up to 64 passengers.
Le Ponant was next scheduled to carry passengers as part of a 10-day, seven-night trip from Alexandria, Egypt, to Valletta, Malta, starting April 19. Prices started at $3,465, not including air fare or taxes.
Pirates seized more than two dozen ships off Somalia's coast last year.
Denmark's government paid a ransom to win the release in August of the crew of a Danish cargo ship that was hijacked by Somali pirates some two months after they were taken captive.
The U.S. Navy has led international patrols to try to combat piracy in the region. Last year, the guided missile destroyer USS Porter opened fire to destroy pirate skiffs tied to a Japanese tanker.
Wracked by more than a decade of violence and anarchy, Somalia does not have its own navy, and a transitional government formed in 2004 with U.N. help has struggled to assert control.
The International Maritime Bureau, which tracks piracy, said in its annual report earlier this year that global pirate attacks rose 10 percent in 2007, marking the first increase in three years.
(http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/04/04/cruiseship.pirates.ap/index.html)
Well, this is going to be interesting.
The Somalia coast is one of the most dangerous places with the highest frequency of pirate attacks. Let's see how the French respond...:)
decodeddiesel
04-04-08, 15:24
Let's see how the French respond...:)
ROFL!!! Sorry I couldn't help myself. We shall see indeed.
A1 upper. No forward assist, fewer nooks and crannies around the sight to retain water. No optical site for me, if the weapon was to ride around in the gear locker 99.99% of the time. Tritium sights, maybe.
After a diver swims a weapon, maintenance is performed. I think long term storage in a salty environment will the real enemy. A CavArms lower would fare better, when maintenance was neglected, IMO. I'd also pack a few spares (LPK, for sure). Use PMAGs.
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