View Full Version : KAC or LaRue...?
OK, help me out here, but please, so as not to get sidetracked, can we please stick to just what I am inquiring about...these two brands...not "you should get this or that & I have this...?"...I mean, I know all the others and have looked at them, but have narrowed it down to these for my own reasons, and what I am after from y'all, is your educated opinion between just these two companies and these specific "models" listed.
A HUGE thanks to all who participate...as I have NO experience with either.
So what I am looking at is;
1. A light compact rifle / carbine in 7.62x51
2. the same as above but in 5.56NATO
As to #1, if I am comparing oranges to oranges I have these:
LaRue OBR 7.62 16"
Knights Armament SR25 Enhanced Carbine 16"
...the KAC in same barrel (16") length is 1 pound heavier...closest they have to the LaRue.
However, there is a "tangerene" offered by LaRue, the LaRue PredatAR 7.62 16"...which is 2.5 lbs. lighter than the KAC 1.5 lighter than the OBR.
Hence, I am leaning towards the LaRue in a 7.62 for that very reason they have by far the lightest between the two companies.
As to #2 (5.56NATO) guns;
KAC SR-15 E3 IWS Carbine 16"
PredatAR 5.56 16"
...the KAC in this caliber / model is only 1/4 lbs. heavier, non-issue here...leaning towards the KAC between these 2 companies & models in this caliber?
What say you?
Thanks!:help:
I vote for KAC.
Now this is a sample size of exactly one but my buddy with a OBR has had a hell of a time getting his rifle to function correctly. When it does it is a very accurate firearm, but so are all of the SR25's.
Also the group of professionals at KAC are second to none IMO.
Both are awesome quality. You really can't go wrong with either.
I have and have had different variations of the SR-25'S and the SR15. The SR15 is truly a tough one to beat price wise. Out of the box, it's a pertty decent rifle. IMHO, it's always one of the rifles everyone talks about when shopping for the best AR. Throw in Colt, LMT, DD, BCM.
I've only had the chance to shoot two different LT rifles.
I think the problem you'll have is sourcing a LT rifle. I have a couple relative on the waits list for their PredatorAR/OBR or whatever they ordered. The lead time is quite a bit. This is not to say that KAC rilfes are hard to get, but in my experience I never had to wait as long compared to a LT.
Your post seems to indicate that weight is a big factor. I would try to get your hands on one or even shoot one if you can. Some rifles balance better than others. It's like sticking a 1.5lbs suppressor on the end of an AR to mess up the balance.
I prefer KAC since I have had good experiences with them.
I vote for KAC.
Now this is a sample size of exactly one but my buddy with a OBR has had a hell of a time getting his rifle to function correctly. When it does it is a very accurate firearm, but so are all of the SR25's.
Also the group of professionals at KAC are second to none IMO.
Well, hmmm, that seems to be the case with those outside of this forum I talk to...and that thread here "show us your KAC" or something to that effect...was wildly active, so....?
But you know, many forums are subject to "fanboy-ism" ...so?
But I thought LaRue was TOP notch...?
Littlelebowski
05-02-13, 12:01
KAC. Fully ambi.
Both are awesome quality. You really can't go wrong with either.
I have and have had different variations of the SR-25'S and the SR15. The SR15 is truly a tough one to beat price wise. Out of the box, it's a pertty decent rifle. IMHO, it's always one of the rifles everyone talks about when shopping for the best AR. Throw in Colt, LMT, DD, BCM.
I've only had the chance to shoot two different LT rifles.
I think the problem you'll have is sourcing a LT rifle. I have a couple relative on the waits list for their PredatorAR/OBR or whatever they ordered. The lead time is quite a bit. This is not to say that KAC rilfes are hard to get, but in my experience I never had to wait as long compared to a LT.
Your post seems to indicate that weight is a big factor. I would try to get your hands on one or even shoot one if you can. Some rifles balance better than others. It's like sticking a 1.5lbs suppressor on the end of an AR to mess up the balance.
I prefer KAC since I have had good experiences with them.
OK...funny, I am gonna break my own request in my OP to keep it between LT & KAC...given the very 1st post, came up with reliability issues with LaRue...
If I changed this to the KAC 7.62 model mentioned in my OP...
...VS. the COLT LE901 16S...which is 'bout the same weight as the KAC SR25 I listed...how does that change opinions here.
I know COLT is highly regarded here...along with KAC, so maybe this will be more relevant, and it (LE901) was originally on my "shortlist" (#3)...?
I've had a couple of different rifles from both companies. When you say lightweight 7.62 the PredatAR is the answer. Mine will consistently shoot 3/4 MOA groups with match ammo.............for 10 rounds or so before opening up to 1.0-1.5 MOA. I've never had any cycling issues. I cleaned the grease off the bolt and carrier and lubed it before firing. It seems to do a little better with 168 match than the 175's which kind of surprises me.
As to the 5.56 I believe KAC is the way to go. The 5.56 PredatAR is nice but as light and balanced as the KAC when it's in shooting trim. The other side of the coin is it's nice to have a pair of Larues. I don't think you'll see Larue complete rifles for many moons.
Army Chief
05-02-13, 12:53
My preferred product is KAC (based primarily upon experience with 5.56 systems).
My preferred manufacturer is KAC (based primarily upon who is standing behind the brand).
Not suggesting that LaRue isn't marketing a fine rifle, but I just prefer to limit my exposure to their core competencies (mounts and components).
AC
My preferred product is KAC (based primarily upon experience with 5.56 systems).
My preferred manufacturer is KAC (based primarily upon who is standing behind the brand).
Not suggesting that LaRue isn't marketing a fine rifle, but I just prefer to limit my exposure to their core competencies (mounts and components).
AC
Hello Army Chief;
I am relatively new here...slowly starting to approach my 200 posts so I can "post" in General" as well.
You are the founder of this forum, is that correct...?
At least the senior most member?
Can you explain ( other than they are a fine company)...if there is anything other than the above in (...) to explain, why the extreme high reverence here for KAC ( maybe as much for Colt, as well?)?
Is there a strong "affiliation" or financial connection to the company?
Or...?
Just wondering.
What I have read, ( I think, I did) is that KAC was Stoner's last affiliation or the last "evolution" of his design?
Correct me if that is wrong?
thanks to you for "weighing" in on my post.
ps. I am a 17 yr. CANCER survivor...by the grace of GOD and the very good Dr.'s sent my way...also, an amazing holistic concoction I ingested all the while thru surgeries & chemo...and beyond!
Glad to see you making a comeback form that original prognosis given to you back in Dec. 2012
I love my PredatAR 5.56. In my limited experience its the best rifle I ever held and fired, then again, I never held or fired a SR15.
The only think that I will say is that speaking with LaRue last week, looking to order an 18" OBR 7.62, the wait is "over a year" but they are still taking orders. This may influence your decision making if a KAC rifle is easier to get.
My PredetARm took 26 weeks after being quoted 14-16 weeks in April of last year.
WickedWillis
05-02-13, 13:14
You sure changed your options around extremely quickly based on very few replys. Do you have 1st hand experience with either brand? Have you even handled one? I have handled the KAC's. If i had about 2k burning a hole in my pocket I would buy an SR15, because It is everything you would need in one AR but I have only handled it and not fired one. I recently did however fire a Larue PredatAR that one of my customer owns and it was a really nice rifle, it also seemed way more accurate than my capabilities.
I've had a couple of different rifles from both companies. When you say lightweight 7.62 the PredatAR is the answer. Mine will consistently shoot 3/4 MOA groups with match ammo.............for 10 rounds or so before opening up to 1.0-1.5 MOA. I've never had any cycling issues. I cleaned the grease off the bolt and carrier and lubed it before firing. It seems to do a little better with 168 match than the 175's which kind of surprises me.
As to the 5.56 I believe KAC is the way to go. The 5.56 PredatAR is nice but as light and balanced as the KAC when it's in shooting trim. The other side of the coin is it's nice to have a pair of Larues. I don't think you'll see Larue complete rifles for many moons.
Well...as stated in my OP, I was leaning in both calibers, to exactly as you describe...with as a #3 "dark horse" choice, the Colt LE901 16S ( if the pricing ever comes back to Earth...?)...
...but wanted a bunch of input and opinions having had no experience with either company.
You sure changed your options around extremely quickly based on very few replys. Do you have 1st hand experience with either brand? Have you even handled one? I have handled the KAC's. If i had about 2k burning a hole in my pocket I would buy an SR15, because It is everything you would need in one AR but I have only handled it and not fired one. I recently did however fire a Larue PredatAR that one of my customer owns and it was a really nice rifle, it also seemed way more accurate than my capabilities.
"You sure changed your options around extremely quickly based on very few replys"
Not really...as I later mentioned, the Colt LE901 was in close contention for me...#3 and it IS "special" can do what the other 2 cannot...be an AR10 & AR15...so, it is close and maybe in a class all by itself?
But I did not know if I really needed that...and "light" (as a 7.62) was really my 1st priority and the Colt is not.
WickedWillis
05-02-13, 13:29
Here is the short of it, If you want the 5.56 the SR15 cannot be compared to IMO. For the money its the most solid 5.56 AR out there.
As for the 7.62, the Larue should be the way to go. The wait time on the rifle however may keep you from wanting one. Ive heard anywhere from 8 months to 2 years so keep that in mind.
You are right on the Colt however, not a light rifle.
Army Chief
05-02-13, 13:34
Hello Army Chief;
I am relatively new here...slowly starting to approach my 200 posts so I can "post" in General" as well.
You are the founder of this forum, is that correct...?
At least the senior most member?
Can you explain ( other than they are a fine company)...if there is anything other than the above in (...) to explain, why the extreme high reverence here for KAC ( maybe as much for Colt, as well?)?
Is there a strong "affiliation" or financial connection to the company?
Or...?
Just wondering.
What I have read, ( I think, I did) is that KAC was Stoner's last affiliation or the last "evolution" of his design?
Correct me if that is wrong?
thanks to you for "weighing" in on my post.
ps. I am a 17 yr. CANCER survivor...by the grace of GOD and the very good Dr.'s sent my way...also, an amazing holistic concoction I ingested all the while thru surgeries & chemo...and beyond!
Glad to see you making a comeback form that original prognosis given to you back in Dec. 2012
Don't want to color the discussion here too much, but I appreciate your post, and will do what I can to offer some clarity.
- I am not the owner, founder, illustrious potentate nor the HMFIC of M4Carbine. I was sort of holding out for the title of Oberführer at one point (I like umlauts), but that didn't seem to gather much momentum, either. ;) I'm actually just a regular member who keeps getting bumped up the chain; likely because everyone feels sorry for me. lol
- There is no financial or inside business connection between M4C and any manufacturer, to include KAC. We do have a few KAC employees in our membership base, as well as one or two on the staff itself, but I am not sure that I have ever seen them actively promote KAC product on the boards. Mostly they just respond to questions.
- You will find that the folks on this site have a special appreciation for top-quality product that is truly battle-tested and ready for hard-use. Colt certainly meets the bar here, as does KAC. This is why we steer folks toward these companies, and to others like BCM, Daniel Defense and Noveske; because they are truly advancing the art and taking no shortcuts. Our focus is upon tools that work well and are built to last, because we actually believe in shooting them and training to win.
- Eugene Stoner was indeed a KAC employee in his later life, and they did give him Carte Blanche to develop the ultimate evolution of his AR design. The result was/is the SR-15E3, and it is that rifle that stands above most everything else in this class in my view. I'm not saying that there are no worthy peers; merely that it is a well-balanced, lightweight work of art that has everything you need, and nothing that you don't. The quality is very high, and the company stands behind their product. I own one now, and will invest in others as I have the means.
- Don't have a 7.62 AR, and have never used one. I believe that I would likely be a SCAR 17 customer if I desired a full 7.62x51mm solution, but with 300 BLK and 6.8 SPC, I've been able to cover most of those same bases in a standard AR format. Just depends upon what you want to do. Keep in mind, though, that, if you want to fire a full-power .30 cartridge with any regularity, light weight might not be the most important variable, simply because a bit of heft helps quite a bit to moderate recoil.
- Always a delight to hear from someone who has spent some time in the Lion's Den of cancer and been given the grace to survive it. My prognosis isn't particularly good, but yet I continue to improve every day. I've nary a complaint, and have an army of folks praying for me, so I feel somewhat obligated to stay healthy for as long as I can. ;)
AC
Magic_Salad0892
05-02-13, 15:52
KAC. That gun is built to fight with.
The LaRue gun is built for shooting tiny groups.
I believe that the Knight's gun will be more reliable, and it's ambi.
I also believe that the KAC gun is better than the Colt LE901 offering. As it's purpose built for 7.62x51mm NATO, and does not posess a monolithic rail, so if the rail is damaged it can be replaced. Also the KAC has the E3 bolt, and comes with an Enhanced type carrier, if I recall correctly. (They need to start doing that with the SR15 guns.)
While it may not be an issue for you, for some people it's a driving force.
Larue is widely used amongst Army SF as a semi-auto precision weapon platform / counter sniper role.
KAC has it's hand all over the military in every branch... so there's that side of it too.
I think both are great guns - I would say get both ;-)
Failure2Stop
05-02-13, 17:26
I am one of those fore-mentioned KAC employees (see sig line), so I am only going to discuss our product.
The EC is a very nice precision carbine.
It is one of the lesser expensive options in the SR25 line.
It has a fairly heavy barrel profile, one that is designed to provide minimized shift during extended firing. Lighten a barrel and heat affects it more. Laws of physics/thermodynamics. The ECC (flagship option, weighs in around 9 lbs) has a ball-mill lightened barrel to reduce weight while not giving up much rigidity or suffering from group shift/dispersion due to barrel heating/cooling.
The handguard of the EC is also fairly heavy in comparison to the ECC. Not a big deal to someone that wants a compact precision carbine that doesn't mind a 10 pound gun. I personally prefer the URX3.1 over the URXII.
*Weights given are with sights, SOPMOD stocks, rail covers, and ambi controls.
One thing to remember is that KAC has delivered over 10,000 Mk11 variants, and over 10,000 M110 variants to the US and Allied militaries, not counting the commercial sales of SR25s. Having the ability to turn out that volume of precision semi-automatic sniper rifles to meet the needs of the most discerning end-users speaks volumes on its own.
Yeah, I work for KAC, but I chose to work here for a reason.
MichaelVain
05-02-13, 19:44
I would highly recommend KAC for both your options.
The SR15 is a very balanced and soft shooting AR15. The out of the box rifle comes with everything you need as was posted above, including flip up micro sights, ambi controls, QD sling attachment, SOPMOD stock, and a really nice 2 stage match trigger. Compared to my Swiss SIG 550s (known for their triggers), the KAC trigger is every bit as crisp and clean. The gas system they use really makes a difference in felt recoil (not much) compare to standard AR15s. I usually run American Eagle 223 through my SR15 and have had no issues. I have read that when some have used ammo that is not full powered, they may have some issues. Quite honestly, whatever rifle you get, run quality ammo through it.
The SR25 EMC (EC, ECC) has all the advantages and characteristics of the SR15 in a .308 configuration. The design is very robust and reliable. It does have considerably more weight, but this is to be expected. The shouldering and handling of the SR25 EC is very comfortable. The build quality it top notch.
As also said above, the folks that work at KAC are very responsive and professional. All my questions and follow up questions that I've ever posed have been answered politely and timely.
I would encourage you to visit silencertalk.com and read the KAC subforum where you can find a history of the development of the SR25 EC. The amount of innovation and R&D that KAC has done in these 2 platforms is extraordinary.
I don't have any experience with LaRue products, I like Bobro mounts and KAC rifles. I prefer to buy from companies that can innovate.
Edit: grammar
I prefer to buy from companies that can innovate.
Innovation, not replication. I prefer KAC as well.
I think Larue makes some fine products...but if one steps back and looks at the companies, what they have done, and where they have been, its no longer oranges to oranges as you stated earlier.
As far as your question concerning rifles, I will give the nod to KAC every single time.
KAC...there is a reason why they are DOD contracted. also, I live close by there factory so i always get 1day standard shipping...
Cylinder Head
05-03-13, 10:14
KAC across the board for me. I love my SR-15 and will be sticking with the platform when I go for a 7.62.
I love my predatAR in 7.62. I use mostly steel case, have run about 2k rounds through it, then another 1k of brass. Runs like a raped ape, very accurate, and very happy with it. I have never handled a KAC though.
sent from my dishwasher
Magic_Salad0892
05-03-13, 12:00
It's funny to see the overwhelming preference to KAC over nearly anybody else's products. Especially in 7.62x51mm.
I dig it.
I vote for KAC.
Now this is a sample size of exactly one but my buddy with a OBR has had a hell of a time getting his rifle to function correctly. When it does it is a very accurate firearm, but so are all of the SR25's.
Also the group of professionals at KAC are second to none IMO.
My preferred product is KAC (based primarily upon experience with 5.56 systems).
My preferred manufacturer is KAC (based primarily upon who is standing behind the brand).
Not suggesting that LaRue isn't marketing a fine rifle, but I just prefer to limit my exposure to their core competencies (mounts and components).
AC
KAC. That gun is built to fight with.
The LaRue gun is built for shooting tiny groups.
I believe that the Knight's gun will be more reliable, and it's ambi.
I also believe that the KAC gun is better than the Colt LE901 offering. As it's purpose built for 7.62x51mm NATO, and does not posess a monolithic rail, so if the rail is damaged it can be replaced. Also the KAC has the E3 bolt, and comes with an Enhanced type carrier, if I recall correctly. (They need to start doing that with the SR15 guns.)
I am one of those fore-mentioned KAC employees (see sig line), so I am only going to discuss our product.
The EC is a very nice precision carbine.
It is one of the lesser expensive options in the SR25 line.
It has a fairly heavy barrel profile, one that is designed to provide minimized shift during extended firing. Lighten a barrel and heat affects it more. Laws of physics/thermodynamics. The ECC (flagship option, weighs in around 9 lbs) has a ball-mill lightened barrel to reduce weight while not giving up much rigidity or suffering from group shift/dispersion due to barrel heating/cooling.
The handguard of the EC is also fairly heavy in comparison to the ECC. Not a big deal to someone that wants a compact precision carbine that doesn't mind a 10 pound gun. I personally prefer the URX3.1 over the URXII.
*Weights given are with sights, SOPMOD stocks, rail covers, and ambi controls.
One thing to remember is that KAC has delivered over 10,000 Mk11 variants, and over 10,000 M110 variants to the US and Allied militaries, not counting the commercial sales of SR25s. Having the ability to turn out that volume of precision semi-automatic sniper rifles to meet the needs of the most discerning end-users speaks volumes on its own.
Yeah, I work for KAC, but I chose to work here for a reason.
I would highly recommend KAC for both your options.
The SR15 is a very balanced and soft shooting AR15. The out of the box rifle comes with everything you need as was posted above, including flip up micro sights, ambi controls, QD sling attachment, SOPMOD stock, and a really nice 2 stage match trigger. Compared to my Swiss SIG 550s (known for their triggers), the KAC trigger is every bit as crisp and clean. The gas system they use really makes a difference in felt recoil (not much) compare to standard AR15s. I usually run American Eagle 223 through my SR15 and have had no issues. I have read that when some have used ammo that is not full powered, they may have some issues. Quite honestly, whatever rifle you get, run quality ammo through it.
The SR25 EMC (EC, ECC) has all the advantages and characteristics of the SR15 in a .308 configuration. The design is very robust and reliable. It does have considerably more weight, but this is to be expected. The shouldering and handling of the SR25 EC is very comfortable. The build quality it top notch.
As also said above, the folks that work at KAC are very responsive and professional. All my questions and follow up questions that I've ever posed have been answered politely and timely.
I would encourage you to visit silencertalk.com and read the KAC subforum where you can find a history of the development of the SR25 EC. The amount of innovation and R&D that KAC has done in these 2 platforms is extraordinary.
I don't have any experience with LaRue products, I like Bobro mounts and KAC rifles. I prefer to buy from companies that can innovate.
Edit: grammar
Innovation, not replication. I prefer KAC as well.
I think Larue makes some fine products...but if one steps back and looks at the companies, what they have done, and where they have been, its no longer oranges to oranges as you stated earlier.
As far as your question concerning rifles, I will give the nod to KAC every single time.
KAC...there is a reason why they are DOD contracted. also, I live close by there factory so i always get 1day standard shipping...
Knight's has a yet-to-be released K2 version that's like 7.7lbs. That'd be my choice.
It's funny to see the overwhelming preference to KAC over nearly anybody else's products. Especially in 7.62x51mm.
I dig it.
Thanks guys...that's a "wrap", for me, nuff said.
I will, though, read up more on the comapany (KAC) origins R&D and such...other forums, perhaps that one mentioned...just for inspiration.
You know, I did already do my "homework"...no accident came down to
KAC, LT, & Colt...(looked at these fine rigs too; Noveske, LMT, BCM, LWRCI, & Daniel Defense)
...actually have a LWRC M6 A2 in 6.8SPC &
two D.D. ; DDM4 V1 5.56 & .300 ACC w/custom lower w/ Geissele SSA-E trigger, Vitor stock kit & Magpul furniture.
Best forum I have been involved with, little or NO,
"attitudes & flaming"...
...just competence, courtesy, patience & tolerance exhibited, others would do well to take notice !
Great input...THANKS !!!
Magic_Salad0892
05-03-13, 12:36
Best forum I have been involved with, little or NO,
"attitudes & flaming"......just competence, courtesy, patience & tolerance exhibited, others would do well to take notice !
Great input...THANKS !!!
Lol. You haven't been to GD yet, have you?
All lols aside, we're glad to have you here.
Don't want to color the discussion here too much, but I appreciate your post, and will do what I can to offer some clarity.
- I am not the owner, founder, illustrious potentate nor the HMFIC of M4Carbine. I was sort of holding out for the title of Oberführer at one point (I like umlauts), but that didn't seem to gather much momentum, either. ;) I'm actually just a regular member who keeps getting bumped up the chain; likely because everyone feels sorry for me. lol
- There is no financial or inside business connection between M4C and any manufacturer, to include KAC. We do have a few KAC employees in our membership base, as well as one or two on the staff itself, but I am not sure that I have ever seen them actively promote KAC product on the boards. Mostly they just respond to questions.
- You will find that the folks on this site have a special appreciation for top-quality product that is truly battle-tested and ready for hard-use. Colt certainly meets the bar here, as does KAC. This is why we steer folks toward these companies, and to others like BCM, Daniel Defense and Noveske; because they are truly advancing the art and taking no shortcuts. Our focus is upon tools that work well and are built to last, because we actually believe in shooting them and training to win.
- Eugene Stoner was indeed a KAC employee in his later life, and they did give him Carte Blanche to develop the ultimate evolution of his AR design. The result was/is the SR-15E3, and it is that rifle that stands above most everything else in this class in my view. I'm not saying that there are no worthy peers; merely that it is a well-balanced, lightweight work of art that has everything you need, and nothing that you don't. The quality is very high, and the company stands behind their product. I own one now, and will invest in others as I have the means.
- Don't have a 7.62 AR, and have never used one. I believe that I would likely be a SCAR 17 customer if I desired a full 7.62x51mm solution, but with 300 BLK and 6.8 SPC, I've been able to cover most of those same bases in a standard AR format. Just depends upon what you want to do. Keep in mind, though, that, if you want to fire a full-power .30 cartridge with any regularity, light weight might not be the most important variable, simply because a bit of heft helps quite a bit to moderate recoil.
- Always a delight to hear from someone who has spent some time in the Lion's Den of cancer and been given the grace to survive it. My prognosis isn't particularly good, but yet I continue to improve every day. I've nary a complaint, and have an army of folks praying for me, so I feel somewhat obligated to stay healthy for as long as I can. ;)
AC
As the OP...allow me to digress.
This is solely for AC (this time)...
"- Always a delight to hear from someone who has spent some time in the Lion's Den of cancer and been given the grace to survive it. My prognosis isn't particularly good, but yet I continue to improve every day. I've nary a complaint, and have an army of folks praying for me, so I feel somewhat obligated to stay healthy for as long as I can. ;)
AC"
In respect to your "prognosis"...acknowledge it & accept it,
( sure you have...)...then DEFY IT !
Faith, prayer & positive outlook with much humor & joy...is vey, very powerful "medicine"!
I know.
Got myself on every prayer list with EVERY ministry in the USA, I had respect for...
...I also let go & let GOD ( know it sounds cliche', but...)
Get good physicians , "medical practitioners" ...but seek the
GREAT Physician who does not need ANY "practice" !
Also, look into Essiac Tea:
...I drank it...learned how to make it...ALL thru my surgeries & chemo & 5 yrs. after. Mentioned it to my Oncologist from the start...he winked at me, TOLD ME "I am a 'medical' physician and cannot discuss that, however...KEEP DOING what you are doing" (wink, wink...very cool) !!!
http://www.essiac-canada-intl.com/?gclid=CNXK2fO9-rYCFep7QgodKzcAVg
http://campaignfortruth.com/Eclub/250505/CTM%20-%20story%20of%20essiac.htm
http://www.mdanderson.org/education-and-research/resources-for-professionals/clinical-tools-and-resources/cimer/therapies/herbal-plant-biologic-therapies/essiac-scientific.html
AND...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR6lTPPwfwE
Regardless...GOD is in control.
My journey was filled with miraculous encounters that defied all logic!
Army Chief
05-03-13, 13:04
As a man of faith, I can relate quite easily to all that you are saying. To live is Christ, to die is gain; that said, I'm doing all that I can to bounce back, stay healthy and see if I can't stick around to sniff a few grandchildren in the years to come. I'm fairly sure that I was born to be a grandfather. ;)
Am usually wary of non-standard treatments, but I'm not operable, chemo is not well-suited to my case, and I've already had all of the radiation that I can ever be given, so a proper cup of tea may be just what the doctor would order, if he only could. Will look into this, and your links -- and I thank you for the kind note.
AC
Beat Trash
05-03-13, 15:20
Question for the KAC experienced shooters. I'm lead to believe that the KAC SR15 has a proprietarily bolt that is not cheap. Does this even play into the decision if choosing between the LaRue and the KAC products?
My first thought when I saw what a replacement bolt costs was enough to dissuade me. But I was also told that the bolt supposedly has a service life of 20,000 rounds. When I factor how money I would have spent on 20,000 rounds, a new bolt and barrel all of the sudden isn't that much. Just wondering the thoughts on the proprietarily bolt from KAC users.
Army Chief,
Hang in there. A positive attitude is everything!
I hit my 5 year mark cancer free last spring. Spent almost all of 2007 undergoing two chemo treatments for stage 3 colorectal cancer.
It sucks...
But it can be beat. Find strength and support where ever you can. It helps to get through the bad days.
Question for the KAC experienced shooters. I'm lead to believe that the KAC SR15 has a proprietarily bolt that is not cheap. Does this even play into the decision if choosing between the LaRue and the KAC products?
My first thought when I saw what a replacement bolt costs was enough to dissuade me. But I was also told that the bolt supposedly has a service life of 20,000 rounds. When I factor how money I would have spent on 20,000 rounds, a new bolt and barrel all of the sudden isn't that much. Just wondering the thoughts on the proprietarily bolt from KAC users.
Army Chief,
Hang in there. A positive attitude is everything!
I hit my 5 year mark cancer free last spring. Spent almost all of 2007 undergoing two chemo treatments for stage 3 colorectal cancer.
It sucks...
But it can be beat. Find strength and support where ever you can. It helps to get through the bad days.
It may not be cheap, but if you only have to purchase one every 20,000 rounds vs the 4 standard bolts you may have had to replace during the same time frame it evens out.
I have never heard of a SR15 bolt ever failing.
Beat Trash
05-03-13, 16:06
I guess this answers the question I asked when I saw the cost of a KAC bolt. That being, "how often would a person realistically need to replace one?".
As a man of faith, I can relate quite easily to all that you are saying. To live is Christ, to die is gain; that said, I'm doing all that I can to bounce back, stay healthy and see if I can't stick around to sniff a few grandchildren in the years to come. I'm fairly sure that I was born to be a grandfather. ;)
Am usually wary of non-standard treatments, but I'm not operable, chemo is not well-suited to my case, and I've already had all of the radiation that I can ever be given, so a proper cup of tea may be just what the doctor would order, if he only could. Will look into this, and your links -- and I thank you for the kind note.
AC
Please do...not saying it is a sure thing...but has a legendary, albeit anecdotal track record, and rabid following...I know some who claim complete healing when chemo was not an option ( the Mormon young mother & herbalist, who swore to me it cured her of Hodgkins when chemo & radiation was NOT an option due to her pregnancy ...she also the one who initially made my gallons then showed me what I needed to make my own at 1/10 her price...I did, and results were significant and well, not sure if would have been enough in my case, alone...I did do chemo along with it...but the story behind it is amazing.
Is actually four herbs /plants common to North America when combined and prepared one way...have this amazing synergistic effect & affect.
BTW, I am a Nutritionist (traditional RDA / ADA type ) 1/2 way to my PhD.
I was "skeptical"...but had nothing to lose.
Rene Caisse (spelled backwards "Essiac")
There is documented history there.
Also, google "Royal Rife"...wanna eye-opener, try that on for size.
Extremely well documented if taken the time to go dig...
How many millions of lives could have been saved since Cassie & Rife?
Alas, the "management" of CANCER is second only to the Petrochemical Industry...
NEVER will there be a flat-out "cure"...what would happen to all the oncologists & ALL who supporting characters as well as equipment companies & pharmaceutical ...HUGE!
Now tell me what government & agencies are capable or not capable of?
50 years later and billions in donations & research and we are not much closer to a "cure" than in 1960..."the war on cancer"...really?
Research the Kennedy boy and Essiac...and the hush, hush behind that one. But they made sure he would survive!
Do both conventional and remarkable if possible and the rest is the will of GOD.
oops...off topic again, sorry, but I cannot keep silent...and cannot post where AC's thread is.
Sorry OP.
skijunkie55
05-03-13, 16:54
How many millions of lives could have been saved since Cassie & Rife?
Alas, the "management" of CANCER is second only to the Petrochemical Industry...
NEVER will there be a flat-out "cure"...what would happen to all the oncologists & ALL who supporting characters as well as equipment companies & pharmaceutical ...HUGE!
Now tell me what government & agencies are capable or not capable of?
careful with that kind of talk... you'll have a white helicopter with a big purple pill logo on the side circling your house soon :help: big pharma has agents everywhere :ph34r:
but seriously, you hit the nail right on the head. If people could be cured "naturally" what kind of society would we have?
More than 1 in 10 americans are on prescrption anti-depressants...
back to your original question: +1 more for KAC
Littlelebowski
05-03-13, 17:01
Can we get back on topic? Not being able to post in general discussion doesn't give one license to derail technical threads.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
skijunkie55
05-03-13, 17:11
Can we get back on topic? Not being able to post in general discussion doesn't give one license to derail technical threads.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
What if it's your own thread? O_o
I suppose that's why the PM option is available...
WickedWillis
05-03-13, 17:21
Easy big fella.
Can we get back on topic? Not being able to post in general discussion doesn't give one license to derail technical threads.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Army Chief
05-03-13, 17:56
Folks like to point to the proprietary KAC bolt as being a potential source of concern, but spares are readily available, I don't see KAC going anywhere in our lifetimes, and more to the point, the bolts simply do not fail (which was the whole reason for the redesign).
Buy with confidence.
AC
ClearedHot
05-03-13, 20:03
Easy big fella.
Somebody thinks they're a mod apparently. ;)
At any rate, I would pick the SCAR-H over an AR10 platform.
Can we get back on topic? Not being able to post in general discussion doesn't give one license to derail technical threads.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Do you know AC?
Do you like him?
Does it really matter if for a post or two we are "off topic"...when it comes to ones health & life?
I am 17 years out from very rare & complex cancer...so much so Memorial Sloan Kettering in NYC...was falling all over itself to get me in there.
I feel for this man or anyone going thru this...it was hell for me, one solid year blacked out completely and a lot of grief before & after...
I had something for him. Sorry pal.
Was not trying to "derail":nono:anything.
I see the thread for AC "Pray for Army Chief" and thought he was a "mod" or even the founder of this forum.
Can we relax a bit in this case...
...I will do my best to folow the "rules" in the future.
Army Chief
05-03-13, 20:46
We're all good, gents. I think LL was just referring to the "white helicopter" add-on commentary that threatened to derail things -- not the OP's kind-hearted sidebar (or even my reply). LL's been there for me throughout these trials -- no need to cast doubt upon any of that.
We just want to keep a thread titled "KAC or LaRue ...?" somewhat related to the advertised subject, since folks will search for it this way in the future, and they don't need to wade through two pages of "cancer is a conspiracy" stuff, which is just about the only place we had left to go.
I see the thread for AC "Pray for Army Chief" and thought he was a "mod" or even the founder of this forum.
Oberführer, man ... I told you I was bucking for Oberführer. lol
Anyway, as you can see, we're all about running a tight ship. Welcome aboard! :D
AC
After several years of ownership of my SR-15, I still say WOW every time I handle, and shoot it. it's just quality equipment. I have never had the chance to handle or shoot a LT rifle, but have used their mounts over the years and they are clearly the top notch producer of that type of equipment, so I would tend to believe their rifles would rifles would be high quality too. But when it comes down to it, as the others have said, KAC has significant contracts with people who put their rifles through their paces in very hostile environments and conditions. These are people who can choose what they want, and have to depend on this product. This should speak volumes as to what rife to go with. I doubt you will find any negative info on the LT rifles, but you just wont find the much deserved and consistent praise for LT rifles as you will with the KAC rifles. I would love to pick up a KAC 308 rifle and will do so one day, until then I hope I get to read your range report of your new KAC rifle!
leibermuster
05-03-13, 22:48
I own Larue mounts and few other odds and ends, but really KAC's SR25 is better overall, the OBR is more a sniper rifle and the barrel life will not last as long compared to a KAC SR25, kind of a different class apparently.
I have an SR15 upper coming soon but all ready own 2 KAC lowers and various other accessories and parts from KAC and they deserve my business and any serious AR hobbyist should have something from them in their collection.
Eventually I will pick up an SR25 as well, hopefully sooner than later. I have used several of their rifles and find their product line to be the best that the US has to offer and for that matter the world. I put them at the Top for DI guns and they are "toe to toe" with HK(Yes I am an HK Believer) in many regards...
7.62: Larue PredatOBR
5.56: KAC SR-15
After several years of ownership of my SR-15, I still say WOW every time I handle, and shoot it. it's just quality equipment. I have never had the chance to handle or shoot a LT rifle, but have used their mounts over the years and they are clearly the top notch producer of that type of equipment, so I would tend to believe their rifles would rifles would be high quality too. But when it comes down to it, as the others have said, KAC has significant contracts with people who put their rifles through their paces in very hostile environments and conditions. These are people who can choose what they want, and have to depend on this product. This should speak volumes as to what rife to go with. I doubt you will find any negative info on the LT rifles, but you just wont find the much deserved and consistent praise for LT rifles as you will with the KAC rifles. I would love to pick up a KAC 308 rifle and will do so one day, until then I hope I get to read your range report of your new KAC rifle!
I own Larue mounts and few other odds and ends, but really KAC's SR25 is better overall, the OBR is more a sniper rifle and the barrel life will not last as long compared to a KAC SR25, kind of a different class apparently.
I have an SR15 upper coming soon but all ready own 2 KAC lowers and various other accessories and parts from KAC and they deserve my business and any serious AR hobbyist should have something from them in their collection.
Eventually I will pick up an SR25 as well, hopefully sooner than later. I have used several of their rifles and find their product line to be the best that the US has to offer and for that matter the world. I put them at the Top for DI guns and they are "toe to toe" with HK(Yes I am an HK Believer) in many regards...
Ok...may be great value also, in having both guns / calibers from the same company...in case you had to deal with them, would also show you are a committed customer?
What about this KAC BCG thing...it is not "mil-spec", but proprietary?
I am very pleased with my 762 OBR. Runs like a sewing machine, shoots .5 MOA with 118LR or FGMM, and makes me smile.
Army Chief
05-04-13, 10:45
What about this KAC BCG thing...it is not "mil-spec", but proprietary?
In the SR-15E3, the bolt has been subtlety modified to increase longevity and reliability (rounded lugs, extractor spring configuration, cam pin shaft size and location).
There is a decent YouTube video on the KAC channel (http://youtu.be/BRC1Txi21UM) that explains this, but the bottom line is that the gun can run with a conventional bolt and carrier group, should that ever become necessary.
AC
hotrodder636
05-04-13, 10:49
In the SR-15E3, the bolt has been subtlety modified to increase longevity and reliability (rounded lugs, extractor spring configuration, cam pin shaft size and location).
There is a decent YouTube video on the KAC channel (http://youtu.be/BRC1Txi21UM) that explains this, but the bottom line is that the gun can run with a conventional bolt and carrier group, should that ever become necessary.
AC
Furthermore, replacement bolts and field repair kits are available for the SR15. I got my replacement/spare bolt from KingOpticusa.com and was impressed with their business and will continue to buy from them for my KAC needs.
I vote for KAC.
Now this is a sample size of exactly one but my buddy with a OBR has had a hell of a time getting his rifle to function correctly. When it does it is a very accurate firearm, but so are all of the SR25's.
Also the group of professionals at KAC are second to none IMO.
I have a SR25 and it's never skipped a beat while, the PredeTAR and OBR ny friends own have been problematic from day one.
The OBR will not run suppressed on any gas setting and the PredeTAR has been short stroking right out of the box.
Verdict is still out on the PredeTAR though cause we'll see how it goes after it's broken in some more.
ETA: In regards to the OBR, Larue sent a new extractor, extractor spring, and a smaller extractor spring after the first call in to diagnose the extraction issues. After installing those parts, rifle still malfunctioned just about every or every other round.
Next up after another call to Larue was they sent a green action spring. After installing that, still the same issues. Larue finally agreed to take the rifle in and they swapped out the BCG and sent it back. We headed out to the range and rifle still in not extracting while suppressed.
My friend got an email from Larue basically saying that it looks like he wont be able to run his AAC 762SD-N suppressor and he should just get a SF since that's what they're tuned for.
Needless to say, the OBR will be up for sale soon and he has an ECC on order.
All things being somewhat equal, I'll always opt for the older, more proven platform over the newcomer. The KAC line has a lot of pedigree and tweaking behind it. The LaRue seems to have some shortcomings that I'm sure will be ironed out in time.
A purchase right now? KAC all the way. In a few years? LaRue might give KAC a run for their money.
In the SR-15E3, the bolt has been subtlety modified to increase longevity and reliability (rounded lugs, extractor spring configuration, cam pin shaft size and location).
There is a decent YouTube video on the KAC channel (http://youtu.be/BRC1Txi21UM) that explains this, but the bottom line is that the gun can run with a conventional bolt and carrier group, should that ever become necessary.
AC
OUTSTANDING...
I have a SR25 and it's never skipped a beat while, the PredeTAR and OBR ny friends own have been problematic from day one.
The OBR will not run suppressed on any gas setting and the PredeTAR has been short stroking right out of the box.
Verdict is still out on the PredeTAR though cause we'll see how it goes after it's broken in some more.
ETA: In regards to the OBR, Larue sent a new extractor, extractor spring, and a smaller extractor spring after the first call in to diagnose the extraction issues. After installing those parts, rifle still malfunctioned just about every or every other round.
Next up after another call to Larue was they sent a green action spring. After installing that, still the same issues. Larue finally agreed to take the rifle in and they swapped out the BCG and sent it back. We headed out to the range and rifle still in not extracting while suppressed.
My friend got an email from Larue basically saying that it looks like he wont be able to run his AAC 762SD-N suppressor and he should just get a SF since that's what they're tuned for.
Needless to say, the OBR will be up for sale soon and he has an ECC on order.
OK...keep going guys, only if you want to add more info & experience ...but it's a done deal, I'm sold, I think I am just going to feed my addiction from here on out, with tried & true with a "name" to go with it if in case re-sale should become necessary (hope not).
So COLT & KAC should fit nicely into that scenario.
rapomstage3
05-04-13, 19:02
Guess what I'm going to say.
bluejackets92fs
05-04-13, 19:27
Knights for sure.
Good to read this thread. Have an SR-15 E3 IWS Mod 1 inbound. Now I really can't wait.
OK...keep going guys, only if you want to add more info & experience ...but it's a done deal, I'm sold, I think I am just going to feed my addiction from here on out, with tried & true with a "name" to go with it if in case re-sale should become necessary (hope not).
So COLT & KAC should fit nicely into that scenario.
you better...kidding!
you better...kidding!
I "better" what?
Sell it...lol, don't even have one yet, cannot find one anywhere?
Anyone buy a SR 15 lately...if so , where?
Anyone buy a SR 15 lately...if so , where?
I got mine at boltcarrier.com. I put my email in the notify when in stock but you can also email Ayan and he can put you on the waitlist.
Lawmens is great as well but you will have to email mail them to see what's in stock or put 1 on order (don't know their eta).
Lastly, there are a few on gunbroker right now at a spectrum of prices.
Anyone buy a SR 15 lately...if so , where?
My lgs has 10 mod 1s in stock for $2399. We might be able to work a deal for M4C members. Pm if interested
wilson1911
05-10-13, 11:04
i just came back from a Costa class, so I ran my guns pretty hard out there. Before class I was a KAC fan, but I bought my sr-15 based on the fact that I am a south paw. After this, I am now a true believer in them. I will not say Larue is a bad gun, but my kac feels alot better than my bcm and noveske's. Not one failure the whole time.
I highly reccomend KAC after using the gun as it was meant to be used.
If you are considering Larue, be aware of his CS, as it sucks. Yes, he builds nice guns, but I would never buy anything from him based on personal exp.
Lastly, the lead time on his guns is really bad atm. Not trying to bash him at all, but making you aware of what you will receive as a total package.
My lgs has 10 mod 1s in stock for $2399. We might be able to work a deal for M4C members. Pm if interested
Really?
Hi;
What is the name of the LGS that has all these?
Thanks.
ps. any reason you do not want to share this publicly, I only want ONE...maybe 9 other guys here want one?
Sorry for derailing the thread but are the Australian's still using KAC rifles?
I don't own either brand, but have handled both and I like the SR-15. It's a very nice rifle. So I say go KAC. Honestly, I'd rather just roll my own for the same price and make it the way I like it.
I don't own either brand, but have handled both and I like the SR-15. It's a very nice rifle. So I say go KAC. Honestly, I'd rather just roll my own for the same price and make it the way I like it.
From what I now understand...hard to "roll your own" KAC SR15 E3.1 IWS...?
Not exactly.
Failure2Stop
05-11-13, 15:33
Sorry for derailing the thread but are the Australian's still using KAC rifles?
Yup
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I had the privilege of visiting Lawmens not to long ago and loved the SR-15 MOD 1 it balanced extremely well with plenty of hand guard real estate. I attended an HSP class at the beginning of the month and there were two MOD 1's. One ran great, but the other one was constantly malfunctioning. But that one had been chopped to 14.5 with a battlecomp 1.5 and was running green tip if that makes a difference. I would love to own a KAC but I doubt I would go shorter than 16 inch with that gas system. I will stick with BCM middies for under 16.
Army Chief
05-11-13, 20:08
If you are considering Larue ... I would never buy anything from him based on personal exp.
While we are always pleased to recognize quality products, longtime M4C members may have noticed that the staff rarely wades into discussions that deal with Mr. LaRue or his company. This is not a result of any personal vendettas or ill will; however, if you spend enough time in or around the industry, you will likely come to recognize that Mr. LaRue has some rather polarizing tendencies, and we simply prefer to take the high ground and avoid potential drama.
Speaking only for myself, I believe that it is fair to say that most LaRue products acquit themselves quite well. Whether you wish to deal with the company on a regular basis as a customer is a decision best left to the individual. You can often do better, and you can certainly do far worse.
AC
Really?
Hi;
What is the name of the LGS that has all these?
Thanks.
ps. any reason you do not want to share this publicly, I only want ONE...maybe 9 other guys here want one?
I thought it was against policy to advertise, and if it is mods please delete.
The shop is Dixie Gunworx in Washington, UT.
The # is 435-275-1296.
As stated in my sig line i am a manager there, and we are a KAC dealer among other products.
I thought it was against policy to advertise, and if it is mods please delete.
The shop is Dixie Gunworx in Washington, UT.
The # is 435-275-1296.
As stated in my sig line i am a manager there, and we are a KAC dealer among other products.
Do not see ANY AR's M4's or KAC on your site...black powder guns???
Do not see ANY AR's M4's or KAC on your site...black powder guns???
I won't derail this thread anymore but for clarification the website hasnt been updated since pre sandy hook when it was a 2 man operation in a basement. We have since expanded to a full gunsmith shop that includes Cerakote and Hydro dipping, and retail store, and a indoor range under construction. The Website is currently being updated by a local web design company, hopefully we'll launch the new and improved website in a couple weeks.
We are dealers for KAC, LMT, Battle Comp, Battle Arms Development, Geissele, Timney, Aimpoint, Vortex, WMD, Midwest Industries, Spikes Tactical, Griffin Armament, Vltor, etc. July 1st our SOT becomes effective, and we go through RSR, Davidson's, Sports South Lipseys, etc for other firearms and product.
OK back on topic, KAC all the way! (with bias)
Anyone buy a SR 15 lately...if so , where?
I recently purchased a Mod1 from Darc Ops Armory on GunBroker at a great price.
I'm still in Australia, so I haven't even been able to touch it...:suicide:
I had the privilege of visiting Lawmens not to long ago and loved the SR-15 MOD 1 it balanced extremely well with plenty of hand guard real estate. I attended an HSP class at the beginning of the month and there were two MOD 1's. One ran great, but the other one was constantly malfunctioning. But that one had been chopped to 14.5 with a battlecomp 1.5 and was running green tip if that makes a difference. I would love to own a KAC but I doubt I would go shorter than 16 inch with that gas system. I will stick with BCM middies for under 16.
An important caveat in the 16" vs 14.5". In addition to the SR15 mod 1 with a 16" barrel KAC makes a 14.5 upper. Out of the three KAC factory configurations that i have (16", 14.5" and 11.5") the 14.5 is my favorite. I've been running it since I got it in January with absolutely no problems and its been eating .223 77 gr BHA for the last couple hundred rounds.
I cannot speak to having a 16" mod 1 cut to 14.5 (and i wouldnt do it personally especially when you can get a KAC factory 14.5 upper with a medium contour dimpled barrel!
Now to the OPs request: KAC
An important caveat in the 16" vs 14.5". In addition to the SR15 mod 1 with a 16" barrel KAC makes a 14.5 upper. Out of the three KAC factory configurations that i have (16", 14.5" and 11.5") the 14.5 is my favorite. I've been running it since I got it in January with absolutely no problems and its been eating .223 77 gr BHA for the last couple hundred rounds.
I cannot speak to having a 16" mod 1 cut to 14.5 (and i wouldnt do it personally especially when you can get a KAC factory 14.5 upper with a medium contour dimpled barrel!
Now to the OPs request: KAC
I knew that they made factory 14.5's but I did not realize that they were different. Is the gas port larger on the 14.5?
I knew that they made factory 14.5's but I did not realize that they were different. Is the gas port larger on the 14.5?
Yes. They are "different".
See Jack's post: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=127776
Yes. They are "different".
See Jack's post: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=127776
Thanks for the link. I figured as much. I couldn't see a company with a reputation like Knights not doing their homework before changing the barrel length. But as I said the 16" in that class ran flawless.
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