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Quiet
05-04-13, 03:18
Female LEO and male LEO, in patrol car, pulls over vehicle for traffic violation.

Suspect exits the vehicle with a semi-auto AK type rifle.

Firefight ensues.

Both LEOs are wounded (expected to recover) and suspect is killed.

Around the 0.36 mark of the video, a civilian witness with a CCW permit, is heard coming to the aid of the LEOs.

http://youtu.be/yid9qG30II8

Anyone have more information on this incident?

Endur
05-04-13, 03:31
One word.. damn.

bluejackets92fs
05-04-13, 03:49
That is crazy. At least the good guys came out on top for once.

Rattlehead
05-04-13, 04:06
Unreal. Looks like it was straight out of a simulator.

jpmuscle
05-04-13, 05:02
Saw that earlier on the web supposedly only one officer was injured and lost a finger?


Crazy shit...

rocsteady
05-04-13, 06:09
Report says the female officer shot in the hand and male officer received shrapnel wound to the knee.

jpmuscle
05-04-13, 06:15
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2319321/James-Gilkerson-Moment-gunman-opened-AK47-shot-police-routine-traffic-stop.html


Some of the comments from the people over there across the pond are just ridiculous ..

rocsteady
05-04-13, 06:21
From the above link, "Lake County prosecutors have called the cops' actions justified".

No! Ya' think?

Even the trapshooter and shotgun joe would have to concede that this was justified.

DTakas
05-04-13, 06:50
- - - - -

sjc3081
05-04-13, 06:52
Luckily for those officers the shooter was completely incompetent with his rifle.

filthy phil
05-04-13, 08:07
Luckily for those officers the shooter was completely incompetent with his rifle.

Beat me to it

ICANHITHIMMAN
05-04-13, 08:38
Thank you Jesus for TV and for that guy having no idea what he was doing! I actually started to tear up a little when I heard her voice (my wife is a patrol officer).

I love the fact that you hear that old mans voice, he was so ready to help them in any way he could, they did a great job focusing on the threat but still on each other and there surroundings. Good training in that department.

MontePR
05-04-13, 09:10
Luckily for those officers the shooter was completely incompetent with his rifle.

Amen. Thank God it turned out this way. Awesome job by the officers.

Traveshamockery
05-04-13, 10:16
Were there a bunch of police misses, or was he just soaking up bullets?

I saw the hit when he doubled over, and another when he collapsed onto his side, but otherwise didn't notice any impacts.

HackerF15E
05-04-13, 11:15
Is he saying "kill me!" in the video after he appears to be hit in the abdomen?

Seems he wanted suicide by cop as he is just sitting there, kneeling, doing nothing.

DTakas
05-04-13, 12:06
- - - - -

Eurodriver
05-04-13, 13:02
I honestly cannot believe that there is video evidence of a guy getting out of his car with a semi-automatic rifle, firing multiple rounds directly at two LEOs and people honestly have to question whether or not the shooting was justified....and the guy wasn't even black.

It baffles my mind.

Failure2Stop
05-04-13, 13:07
Were there a bunch of police misses, or was he just soaking up bullets?

I saw the hit when he doubled over, and another when he collapsed onto his side, but otherwise didn't notice any impacts.

Tracking hits during a fight is virtually impossible as physical reaction to the hit often doesn't happen unless the shot hits a hard item.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

T2C
05-04-13, 13:16
I would like to hear the background on the suspect.

Glad the police came out on top.

Zane1844
05-04-13, 13:26
That was pretty crazy. Police did the right thing, however, I wonder if they will use their tragic experience to say why we "do not need assault weapons." That is neither here nor there, though. Unlike the Libs I respect what they just went through and I will not choose to judge them. No one wants to be in that situation.

Police do not want to be outgunned, neither do normal citizens. That should illustrate why we need semi-auto rifles. Or at least concealed carry- for criminals, illustrated flawlessly in the Great State of Kalifornia, use their weapons to hurt others, no matter what weapon it may be.

I always wonder what those libertards commenting on the "dailymail.uk" would want if that nutjob started shooting at THEM.

1. A phone to call police- More likely: praying for police to come with guns. Since it seems rather hard to dial phone while being shot at.

2. To be killed while on their knees.

3. Or a rifle to shoot back.

Quite honestly given the trend of weakness of "modern man," I think they would choose dieing on their knees while praying for help.

Quiet
05-05-13, 13:21
Officers' patrol car
http://media2.newsnet5.com//photo/2013/05/03/6pm__Middlefield_police_involved_shootin_546090001_20130503180949_640_480.JPG

Suspect's weapons
http://media2.newsnet5.com//photo/2013/05/03/6pm__Middlefield_police_involved_shootin_546090000_20130503180946_640_480.JPG

Officers getting commendation for the shooting.
http://www.wkyc.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/images/130425095501_middlefieldofficers.jpg

Cincinnatus
05-05-13, 15:26
Are the windshield shots on the driver's side from the officer inside shooting out?

NeoNeanderthal
05-05-13, 16:14
First of all…… HOLY SHIT tight groups!!!! That's incredible. Thanks for posting pictures of the windshield. After doing some research this is what i found:

Dude takes 19 gunshots, at the autopsy they take out 9 bullets. Male cop fired 29 Female fired 17. Bad guy fired 33 rounds out of an AK with a 40 round mag. All the bullets they took out of the bad guy were from the male cop- dunno if the other ten wounds were from the female cop or not. Female cop got shot once in the left hand and guy cop got some shrapnel or something in the leg.

I'm assuming female cop carried a glock 17 and did not reload, or the guy was dead by the time she got a new mag in?

Heard audio of perp yelling kill me, and someone saying "I've got a handgun." Right as the shooting concluded. I am assuming that this is the CCW holder.

NeoNeanderthal
05-05-13, 16:15
PS- that female cop is a badass and easy on the eyes to boot. She had only been on duty for like a month before they got ambushed.

Nocalsocal
05-05-13, 17:27
Does anybody have info what their duty load is? I'm only asking because the perp takes one to the stomach and then continues the attack. I know shot placement is king but I wonder if he would have pressed on if he took more bullets or a different load to the belly?

Great reactions and a good shoot.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

The_War_Wagon
05-05-13, 17:39
Do-Do with a Death Wish. Can happen anywhere, anytime, & w/o warning... :eek:

jmoore
05-05-13, 18:19
Can't access vid without signing in - which I don't do. Alternate source? TIA. John

7.62WildBill
05-05-13, 18:48
http://video-embed.cleveland.com/services/player/bcpid649725534001?bctid=2350624009001&bckey=AQ~~%2cAAAAQBxUNqE~%2cxKBGzTdiYSTvTgY_KEDQxGs6uqT6UiMm

Maybe this link will work.

Crazy situation, glad the good guys prevailed.

HackerF15E
05-05-13, 20:30
So I wonder what mayhem he was going to cause with all that iron in his car.

Ordinarily I wouldn't say that, but the fact that he came out shootin' at a traffic stop AND had all those loaded mags on board makes it look like there was something stewing that was more than a dude with an AK and a bunch of loaded mags driving around minding his own business.

TSiWRX
05-06-13, 16:35
Around the 0.36 mark of the video, a civilian witness with a CCW permit, is heard coming to the aid of the LEOs.

http://youtu.be/yid9qG30II8

Anyone have more information on this incident?

I also participate on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry Forums.

Your post is actually the first I've read of the armed citizen's offer to help - I had not noticed it before, despite having seen this video in other contexts. :eek:


I have not heard anything on the local news about a CCW holder coming to the officers aid, judging by the audio I think he showed up just after it was all over.

I haven't seen anything about that on the news, either.

It does seem to me that he showed up just as the shooting ended - nevertheless, good-on-him for coming to help, and for properly notifying.


-----



That was pretty crazy. Police did the right thing, however, I wonder if they will use their tragic experience to say why we "do not need assault weapons."

According to the text of this story:

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2013/03/13/news/nh6667616.txt?viewmode=fullstory , which was published on March 13th in The News-Herald, words would lead the reader to believe that Middlefield police chief Arnold Stanko is advocating for banning the AK-47, quoting the article:



He said weapons such as the one used should be off the streets.

OFCC discussion thread here: http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71241


-----



Are the windshield shots on the driver's side from the officer inside shooting out?

One of our OFCC Forum members had this to say - his son is a LEO in a nearby municipality:


My son talked to one of the officers from that dept. and those holes you see in the windshield that were a tight group, was from one of the officers.

I don't know that there's been any official confirmation of this, though.


-----



So I wonder what mayhem he was going to cause with all that iron in his car.

Ordinarily I wouldn't say that, but the fact that he came out shootin' at a traffic stop AND had all those loaded mags on board makes it look like there was something stewing that was more than a dude with an AK and a bunch of loaded mags driving around minding his own business.

It's hard not to wonder. I find myself in your shoes, too.

That said, there are several gun-ranges relatively close to that area, and recent revisions to Ohio laws - would mean that he could legally have had loaded long-gun magazines (as long as the weapon itself was not loaded, and also with some other stowage considerations), provided that he had a valid Ohio-CHL.

I'm not justifying his actions - just pointing out the obvious. :)

HackerF15E
05-06-13, 17:05
That said, there are several gun-ranges relatively close to that area, and recent revisions to Ohio laws - would mean that he could legally have had loaded long-gun magazines (as long as the weapon itself was not loaded, and also with some other stowage considerations), provided that he had a valid Ohio-CHL.

I'm not justifying his actions - just pointing out the obvious.

Yep, I agree -- there's no crime in driving around with a bunch of loaded mags and a rifle (of course state laws/restrictions apply). It isn't suspicious in and of itself; I've been in that situation many times to/from the range or in preparations for doing so.

It is just his actions at the traffic stop that imply he had less than innocent intentions carrying that stuff around.

Moltke
05-06-13, 17:42
It is just his actions at the traffic stop that imply he had less than innocent intentions carrying that stuff around.

You think?

FromMyColdDeadHand
05-06-13, 17:50
I'd really like to see what the cops did with their movements.

That's why I don't like gun-games. While the targets are static, they only take 2 or even one round to take down. Wish someone would come up with a target that would better simulate 'shoot ending' hits.

So much for 7 rounds being enough to stop a bad guy....

CoryCop25
05-06-13, 18:00
Female officer says "He's hiding something" before he gets out.

Moltke
05-06-13, 18:00
I'd really like to see what the cops did with their movements.

That's why I don't like gun-games. While the targets are static, they only take 2 or even one round to take down. Wish someone would come up with a target that would better simulate 'shoot ending' hits.

So much for 7 rounds being enough to stop a bad guy....


What does a shooting competition have to do with being fired upon by a maniac with an AK at a traffic stop?

Moltke
05-06-13, 18:02
I'm also curious about their movements and while on the subject, the gun/caliber/ammunition the police were using.

CoryCop25
05-06-13, 18:04
I'm also curious about their movements and while on the subject, the gun/caliber/ammunition the police were using.

I know they were 9MM.

T2C
05-06-13, 18:12
I'm also curious about their movements and while on the subject, the gun/caliber/ammunition the police were using.

I would like to review the autopsy report and photographs.

WillBrink
05-06-13, 18:15
Female LEO and male LEO, in patrol car, pulls over vehicle for traffic violation.

Suspect exits the vehicle with a semi-auto AK type rifle.

Firefight ensues.

Both LEOs are wounded (expected to recover) and suspect is killed.

Around the 0.36 mark of the video, a civilian witness with a CCW permit, is heard coming to the aid of the LEOs.

http://youtu.be/yid9qG30II8

Anyone have more information on this incident?

Note that the LEO decides BG - while obviously hit but now kneeling (28sec) - is still a threat and clearly remembered "shoot 'till threat no longer a threat" training as he really unloads on the BG, who then falls over. Good on him and it may have saved his life or his partners as BG was clearly physically able to get off more rnds had he opted to.

Glad to hear their injuries not like threatening.

Anyone know how many hits were made by LE?

nml
05-06-13, 18:21
Too bad that red pickup had already went past. Could have been the world's shortest shootout.

Failure2Stop
05-06-13, 18:33
That's why I don't like gun-games. While the targets are static, they only take 2 or even one round to take down. Wish someone would come up with a target that would better simulate 'shoot ending' hits.


Reactive steel does a pretty good job, and is present in a lot of competitions. Hit the steel but it doesn't fall? Too bad...keep hitting it.

There are plenty of ways to simulate gunfights, from reactive targets to simunition with good role-players, but those don't really make sense in a competition where everyone is competing against each other on the same challenge.

At the end of the day, competitions and gunfights are different things, as those that are any good at either one will generally agree.

FromMyColdDeadHand
05-06-13, 18:40
What does a shooting competition have to do with being fired upon by a maniac with an AK at a traffic stop?


Note that the LEO decides BG - while obviously hit but now kneeling (28sec) - is still a threat and clearly remembered "shoot 'till threat no longer a threat" training as he really unloads on the BG, who then falls over. Good on him and it may have saved his life or his partners as BG was clearly physically able to get off more rnds had he opted to.


I don't want to get into a training/gaming/real-life debate, but while USPSAs link with defensive shooting is tenuous IDPA is meant to help train people to Defend themselves with a pistol, no? I don't remember ever hearing of anyone using 29 rounds on one target in an IDPA match. While LEOs may get more realistic training, how many civies even get to IDPA matches or beyond.

Just trying to look at a real shooting situation and beyond the obvious differences in set-up, looking for lessons to be learned.

I assume the passenger side cop got out since there weren't that many bullet holes on that side from shooting inside and this forced the guy to move from the middle of the street back to his car to try to get out of the line of fire?

Love to hear an interview of the CCW, mainly because he had to have a good vantage point to the whole thing.

WillBrink
05-06-13, 19:05
I don't want to get into a training/gaming/real-life debate, but while USPSAs link with defensive shooting is tenuous IDPA is meant to help train people to Defend themselves with a pistol, no? I don't remember ever hearing of anyone using 29 rounds on one target in an IDPA match.

Then you have not been to some of the IDPA matches I have! :D

I often pay no attention to the stage recs for a target, and when in doubt, will add extra rnds regardless of the time cost on the scores.

That's me. Some really want to score high, and that's cool too. I have had the SO say "you know, you only needed 2 to the body and one to the head on that last target right?"

And I'll say "but 5 to the head is better no?"

Grins all around usually :p

B Cart
05-06-13, 19:12
I don't want to get into a training/gaming/real-life debate, but while USPSAs link with defensive shooting is tenuous IDPA is meant to help train people to Defend themselves with a pistol, no? I don't remember ever hearing of anyone using 29 rounds on one target in an IDPA match. While LEOs may get more realistic training, how many civies even get to IDPA matches or beyond.

Just trying to look at a real shooting situation and beyond the obvious differences in set-up, looking for lessons to be learned.



It's hard to train for an actual gunfight, because each situation is different and unpredictable for the most part. I've luckily never found myself in a gunfight, but I've seen many videos and read accounts of perps going down with a single hit, and then situations like this where the perp absorbs multiple hits and keeps fighting.

Ultimately, we should train as much as possible, and try and mentally visualize and prepare for a variety of situations, and then adapt to the situation at hand if we are found in an actual gunfight. If the threat isn't stopped after 1 or 2 rounds, keep shooting until the threat is completely stopped.

Training can get you so far, but mental awareness and the right mindset are big factors in winning fights, IMO.

T2C
05-06-13, 19:26
At the end of the day, competitions and gunfights are different things, as those that are any good at either one will generally agree.

Fact.

jack crab
05-06-13, 21:57
A serious question and comment. From the looks of the windshield, the officers fired all, or at least quite a few, rounds from inside their vehicle.

Popular wisdom holds everything from if one shoots a handgun in the hallway of their house they will rendered senseless by the blast and concussion on the one hand, to auditory exclusion will preclude any effect on the other hand.

Is there any released commentary or after action report with regard to firing that many rounds within the confines of the car?

Alaskapopo
05-06-13, 22:16
Female LEO and male LEO, in patrol car, pulls over vehicle for traffic violation.

Suspect exits the vehicle with a semi-auto AK type rifle.

Firefight ensues.

Both LEOs are wounded (expected to recover) and suspect is killed.

Around the 0.36 mark of the video, a civilian witness with a CCW permit, is heard coming to the aid of the LEOs.

http://youtu.be/yid9qG30II8

Anyone have more information on this incident?

This is any cops worst nightmare. There is no such thing as an ordinary traffic stop. Also this shows that police work is not as low risk as some of the anti leo types want to make it out to be.
Pat

Ready.Fire.Aim
05-06-13, 22:35
Thank you Officers Savage and Thomas. Orwell's quote is appropriate for your incident, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf".


Watch the white car in the opposite lane Stop then back up straight for over two blocks at a rapid rate.

If that would have been my wife backing up she would have hit seven cars in 30 feet.

Also the pedestrian crossing the street seconds after dozens of shots were fired, either curious/ stupid???

News release with names.
Officers Erin Thomas (who is in training) and Brandon Savage stopped a vehicle for a traffic violation and the driver, James Gilkerson, 42, of Mentor-On-The-Lake, jumped out and began firing at the officers with an AK-47 assault rifle. The officers returned fire, killing Gilkerson. Thomas was shot in her left hand and leg with shrapnel injuries to her right wrist. Savage was injured from flying glass and particles from the police cruiser. Both are currently at home with family recovering.

Moltke
05-07-13, 08:41
If that would have been my wife backing up she would have hit seven cars in 30 feet.

Funny.

Moltke
05-07-13, 08:53
Gun games can be great to push you to be more accurate, or faster, or show you gaps in your skills - but it's no substitute for proper defensive training. I'll leave it at that so we can stay on topic.

T2C
05-07-13, 13:31
A serious question and comment. From the looks of the windshield, the officers fired all, or at least quite a few, rounds from inside their vehicle.

Popular wisdom holds everything from if one shoots a handgun in the hallway of their house they will rendered senseless by the blast and concussion on the one hand, to auditory exclusion will preclude any effect on the other hand.

Is there any released commentary or after action report with regard to firing that many rounds within the confines of the car?

The holes in the windshield were not from incoming fire?

streck
05-07-13, 14:04
As evidence that everyone that uses a gun for defense must train as mush as possible. 46 shots fired for 19 rounds at close range means that 27 rounds missed. For LEO and civilians, every shot missed is a potential collateral victim.


Also this shows that police work is not as low risk as some of the anti leo types want to make it out to be.

Risk is every where and there is little difference to this guy engaging these officers or any random 7-11, jewelry store, or homeowner getting engaged by someone intending to do harm. However, the facts do not lie regarding LEO not being in the top 10 of dangerous jobs.

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 14:15
As evidence that everyone that uses a gun for defense must train as mush as possible. 46 shots fired for 19 rounds at close range means that 27 rounds missed. For LEO and civilians, every shot missed is a potential collateral victim.



Risk is every where and there is little difference to this guy engaging these officers or any random 7-11, jewelry store, or homeowner getting engaged by someone intending to do harm. However, the facts do not lie regarding LEO not being in the top 10 of dangerous jobs.
This is reality when you have someone trying to kill you. Its not the square range with a stationary non threatening target. The military also expends a lot of ammo per every enemy hit. Also LEO's are in the top 20 of dangerous jobs (12). Anti leo types often try to skew things to make the job look less dangerous. (if we were number 8 you would say we were not in the top 7) Way to try to insult these two heroes that did a good job. Think you can do better sign up.

Pat

WillBrink
05-07-13, 14:16
As evidence that everyone that uses a gun for defense must train as mush as possible. 46 shots fired for 19 rounds at close range means that 27 rounds missed. For LEO and civilians, every shot missed is a potential collateral victim.


I recall for LEO miss/hit was 80%/20% on average. Perhaps there's more accurate/modern data to those numbers, but that's my recall.

Don't know what the average rnd count is for OIS.

I forget what the civilian numbers were, and or the quality of the method for collection methods to get them, but I recall civilians tended to do slightly better (need cite there) which could be altered by many factors not related to shooter accuracy/training per se.

Such as, not many civilians are faced with a person jumping out of their car with an AK and going full potato on them, etc.

I'm sure someone here will have the exact figures. But, one would hope knowing the hit/miss of LEO tends to be what it is, $$$ and focus on training is $$ well spent considering the "costs" of non hits as you point out.

I can't claim I'd do any better in that situation considering what I saw in that vid.

CoryCop25
05-07-13, 14:21
I am IN NO WAY trying to start an argument but I will say that emotionally disturbed people do not drive around looking for a 7-11 store clerk, jewelry store or home owner when they are too much of a pussy to kill themselves..... They look for police by committing traffic violations or call police to them by making suspicious person calls and when we stop them or show up on scene we get ambushed. So take it any way you want, shit gets real real quick in our jobs and if we are not switched on, we're in a box in the front of a parade.

streck
05-07-13, 14:23
I recall for LEO miss/hit was 80%/20% on average. Perhaps there's more accurate/modern data to those numbers, but that's my recall.

Don't know what the average rnd count is for OIS.

I forget what the civilian numbers were, and or the quality of the method for collection methods to get them, but I recall civilians tended to do slightly better (need cite there) which could be altered by many factors not related to shooter accuracy/training per se.

That is why I suggest we all must strive to be better, or as good as possible. It is very unlikely that anyone will hit every shot in such an engagement but the effort must be toward hits.
That is why so many instructors stress the concept of accuracy before speed or that you can't miss fast enough.

80/20 hit to miss seems an illustration of the need for that training focus.

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 14:24
I recall for LEO miss/hit was 80%/20% on average. Perhaps there's more accurate/modern data to those numbers, but that's my recall.

Don't know what the average rnd count is for OIS.

I forget what the civilian numbers were, and or the quality of the method for collection methods to get them, but I recall civilians tended to do slightly better (need cite there) which could be altered by many factors not related to shooter accuracy/training per se.

Such as, not many civilians are faced with a person jumping out of their car with an AK and going full potato on them, etc.

I'm sure someone here will have the exact figures. But, one would hope knowing the hit/miss of LEO tends to be what it is, $$$ and focus on training is $$ well spent considering the "costs" of non hits as you point out.

I can't claim I'd do any better in that situation considering what I saw in that vid.

The type of call has a great influence on the hit ratio. Traffic stops that go bad (ambushes) tend to have low hit ratios which is normal for obvious reasons. Calls where the officers have notice of the threat such as a man with a gun call tend to have higher hit ratios. This has a lot to do with the officers having the gun in their hand when the fight starts and having the mind set to be ready and many times having a long gun (huge factor). Here in Alaska our hit ratio was in the low 90% range in the 1990's and it has been dropping since as we have had more violent shootings and attacks on officers. Anyone who thinks they could simply stare down a threat like this and make every round they fire connect is living in a fantasy world. From what I can recall criminal hit ratios are lower in the 10 to 15% range. Never seen any data collected on citizen self defense hit ratios.

Pat

streck
05-07-13, 14:25
I am IN NO WAY trying to start an argument but I will say that emotionally disturbed people do not drive around looking for a 7-11 store clerk, jewelry store or home owner when they are too much of a pussy to kill themselves.....

But many armed robbers are perfectly willing to shoot to kill their victims. As in the Ohio case, it is fortunate most are incompetent shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdAs1qBOO1s

CoryCop25
05-07-13, 14:25
I try to teach the 30% concept. In a gunfight with people shooting back, you are going to score hits 30% less than when shooting paper. So, if you score 100% on your quals than you will hit about 70% on the square range with bullets coming back.

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 14:30
I am IN NO WAY trying to start an argument but I will say that emotionally disturbed people do not drive around looking for a 7-11 store clerk, jewelry store or home owner when they are too much of a pussy to kill themselves..... They look for police by committing traffic violations or call police to them by making suspicious person calls and when we stop them or show up on scene we get ambushed. So take it any way you want, shit gets real real quick in our jobs and if we are not switched on, we're in a box in the front of a parade.

Very true. Cops are targets. Out of the thousands of occupations in the country we come in at the 12th most dangerous. Also with all the anti government tinfoil stuff lately it seems its even more dangerous as the nut jobs see us as the government and the cause of all their woes.

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 14:40
But many armed robbers are perfectly willing to shoot to kill their victims. As in the Ohio case, it is fortunate most are incompetent shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdAs1qBOO1s

Police have to put themselves in contact with bad guys. Citizens are targeted randomly by bad guys. The chance of an officer facing this threat is far greater than the average person of being the victim of an armed robber.
Pat

T2C
05-07-13, 15:03
I recall for LEO miss/hit was 80%/20% on average. Perhaps there's more accurate/modern data to those numbers, but that's my recall.

Don't know what the average rnd count is for OIS.

I thought the hit ratio was worse, more like 1 out of 10, but I am not looking at any study while I make that comment. I think that percentages are a nationwide average and some agencies do a lot better than others.

Some agencies in my part of the country do the absolute minimum amount of training. Fortunately some of the officers from small agencies with little or no training spend a lot of their own time and money training off duty. Five incidents involving small agencies over the past several years come to mind. Fortunately all of the incidents involved officers who trained on their own. None of them shot competitively and their training was work focused. The officers involved fired no more than three shots to end each conflict, with two of them firing only one shot. All of those officers were carrying either a 1911 or a revolver, so that may be the reason for the low number of rounds expended. None of them faced a determined subject firing a semi-automatic rifle though.

I would like to hear more details about the incident in Ohio. I recently retired, but I am still involved in training and course development. Tomorrow I am going to assist a 9 man agency with firearm qualifications and I like to have details from recent incidents to draw from for training purposes.

Hopefully this thread gets back on track.

streck
05-07-13, 15:09
T2C,

It is a sad state of reality that officers do need to spend their own time and money to augment training. Over last several years as tactical and gun training has become more common, it seems many more officers are pursuing advanced training even at their own expense.
I wish more departments would see such training as a net gain of skill and experience rather than the first line of budget restraint.

T2C
05-07-13, 15:11
T2C,

It is a sad state of reality that officers do need to spend their own time and money to augment training. Over last several years as tactical and gun training has become more common, it seems many more officers are pursuing advanced training even at their own expense.
I wish more departments would see such training as a net gain of skill and experience rather than the first line of budget restraint.

I wish that people like you held seats on the city councils in my area.

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 15:12
I thought the hit ratio was worse, more like 1 out of 10, but I am not looking at any study while I make that comment. I think that percentages are a nationwide average and some agencies do a lot better than others.

Some agencies in my part of the country do the absolute minimum amount of training. Fortunately some of the officers from small agencies with little or no training spend a lot of their own time and money training off duty. Five incidents involving small agencies over the past several years come to mind. Fortunately all of the incidents involved officers who trained on their own. None of them shot competitively and their training was work focused. The officers involved fired no more than three shots to end each conflict, with two of them firing only one shot. All of those officers were carrying either a 1911 or a revolver, so that may be the reason for the low number of rounds expended. None of them faced a determined subject firing a semi-automatic rifle though.

I would like to hear more details about the incident in Ohio. I recently retired, but I am still involved in training and course development. Tomorrow I am going to assist a 9 man agency with firearm qualifications and I like to have details from recent incidents to draw from for training purposes.

Hopefully this thread gets back on track.
Its worse on the east coast with hit ratios being 10 to 15% and on the west coast its from 25 to 30%. Don't have the source handy was from a training about 10 years back.
Pat

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 15:14
I wish that people like you held seats on the city councils in my area.

More training is needed but as you know when times are tough training is the first thing to go.
Pat

T2C
05-07-13, 15:28
More training is needed but as you know when times are tough training is the first thing to go.
Pat

That is why those of us with years of experience need to stay involved in the training process for small agencies without concern about receiving monetary compensation.

Moltke
05-07-13, 15:38
Police are always going to be exposed to dangerous situations more often than civilians, sometimes even targeted BECAUSE they're a cop. But when a civilian happens to find themselves in one of these life/death situations they'd better be equally prepared to fight or die. I would hope that we all respect LEO's here, and I would hope that LEO's on the forum don't go picking fights! Can we drop the petty bickering about who doesn't respect who and discuss the shootout?

Has anything new surfaced?

jonconsiglio
05-07-13, 15:58
This is why I volunteer the training that I do for local LE. There's never enough training, so the more the better.

FromMyColdDeadHand
05-07-13, 16:07
... Fortunately some of the officers from small agencies with little or no training spend a lot of their own time and money training off duty. Five incidents involving small agencies over the past several years come to mind. Fortunately all of the incidents involved officers who trained on their own. None of them shot competitively and their training was work focused....

I would like to hear more details about the incident in Ohio. I recently retired, but I am still involved in training and course development...

Hopefully this thread gets back on track.

What are the differences between standard training and the training you do for defensive/work? What are your favorite drills?

Drawing from concealment, more than two shots in rapid succession and movement during firing are basic bozo-no-no's at most ranges anyways, so unless you can find some free land or an understanding club it seems to me most interesting drills are verbotten.

Failure2Stop
05-07-13, 16:34
Just went back and purged the thread of needless bickering.
Let's get back on topic.

T2C
05-07-13, 16:41
What are the differences between standard training and the training you do for defensive/work? What are your favorite drills?

Drawing from concealment, more than two shots in rapid succession and movement during firing are basic bozo-no-no's at most ranges anyways, so unless you can find some free land or an understanding club it seems to me most interesting drills are verbotten.

I have access to two gun clubs during low use hours and I have the latitude to teach people to shoot on the move, from vehicles, under barricades, at night, etc.

I hate to appear unhelpful, but you never know who is reading these threads. I would rather not post a drill, so someone can train to fight against it. I can tell you training is based on what was learned by analyzing 30 years of LEO gun fights in our region.

I will tell you that if an officer has $200 to spend on ammunition, I recommend they spend $120 on ammunition and $80 on a decent pair of running shoes. Being in shape is just as important as trigger time to maintain firearm proficiency under stress. I am also a huge advocate of performing daily dry fire drills.

Analyzing shooting incidents helps to develop lesson plans geared to train officers to fight back and take the momentum during a violent encounter. Unfortunately a lot of the small agencies do not have the time, money or experienced personnel to provide up to date training, so the retired old grumps have to step in and help. A few days of my time every month and a few bucks out of my pocket is worth it to me.

I tip my hat to the Ohio officers who fought back and won. The bottom line is that they won and survived the encounter.

WillBrink
05-07-13, 16:48
That is why I suggest we all must strive to be better, or as good as possible. It is very unlikely that anyone will hit every shot in such an engagement but the effort must be toward hits.
That is why so many instructors stress the concept of accuracy before speed or that you can't miss fast enough.

80/20 hit to miss seems an illustration of the need for that training focus.

Every LEO I know who takes their shooting seriously, some of whom have been in OIS and came out on top, would agree to a man.

I have no doubt the LE here will confirm that and not arguments from me.

But, one still needs to appreciate LE can face encounters (per vid) very few non LE will ever face, and until you walk a mile in those shoes (which I have not), essential to keep it in context of what's reasonable to expect.

Not my area of expertise, but considering the speed at which it happened and the firepower sent their way, etc, what would one expect for a hit ratio? That's a legit Q I'm asking of the members here who have the background for it.

I'd be interested to hear their opinions there.

WillBrink
05-07-13, 16:54
Very true. Cops are targets. Out of the thousands of occupations in the country we come in at the 12th most dangerous. Also with all the anti government tinfoil stuff lately it seems its even more dangerous as the nut jobs see us as the government and the cause of all their woes.

Can't speak for others, but I have seen what I have seen, and for me, the thin blue line is not a metaphor. That vid shows it in spades.

WillBrink
05-07-13, 17:00
Its worse on the east coast with hit ratios being 10 to 15% and on the west coast its from 25 to 30%. Don't have the source handy was from a training about 10 years back.
Pat

In the NE "guns are bad" even for the police. That's the mentality.

T2C
05-07-13, 17:01
Not my area of expertise, but considering the speed at which it happened and the firepower sent their way, etc, what would one expect for a hit ratio? That's a legit Q I'm asking of the members here who have the background for it.

I'd be interested to hear their opinions there.

I would expect the hit ratio under these circumstances to be very low for an officer without SWAT training or practical military experience.

Some questions were asked about the LEO firing shots from inside the vehicle. I train officers to use the vehicle as a weapon if they are in the driver's seat. You have to be able to remember under stress to use the vehicle as a weapon and a lot of officers use their service pistol because that is the way they are trained.

I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident. They were trained to fight back and they did. Bravo Zulu.

WillBrink
05-07-13, 17:12
I would expect the hit ratio under these circumstances to be very low for an officer without SWAT training or practical military experience.

Some questions were asked about the LEO firing shots from inside the vehicle. I train officers to use the vehicle as a weapon if they are in the driver's seat. You have to be able to remember under stress to use the vehicle as a weapon and a lot of officers use their service pistol because that is the way they are trained.

I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident.

Now that's an interesting point. 3000+lbs of metal makes a hell of a weapon, and launching the car at him might have been their fastest response, neutralized the threat, or gotten them out of the line of fire quickly.

Just thinking out loud, as you state: I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident

Any LE here taught that using the car as an option for stopping the threat?

Side thought: Can you imagine the hysteria and hand ringing that would have taken place if the vid had shown them running him over with the patrol car! Epic. :D

Failure2Stop
05-07-13, 17:20
Now that's an interesting point. 3000+lbs of metal makes a hell of a weapon, and launching the car at him might have been their fastest response, neutralized the threat, or gotten them out of the line of fire quickly.

Just thinking out loud, as you state: I was not there when the incident occurred and I am in no way criticizing the officers involved in this incident

Any LE here taught that using the car as an option for stopping the threat?

Side thought: Can you imagine the hysteria and hand ringing that would have taken place if the vid had shown them running him over with the patrol car! Epic. :D

Using the vehicle as a weapon is pretty common in certain circles, but I have never heard about its use inside the US by LE agencies.

The "stopping power" of an automobile is orders of magnitude higher than anything man-portable that doesn't point-detonate.

Curious as to how that kind of lethal force is viewed in US courts/LE policies. I have no issue with it, just curious.

T2C
05-07-13, 17:23
Using the vehicle as a weapon is pretty common in certain circles, but I have never heard about its use inside the US by LE agencies.

The "stopping power" of an automobile is orders of magnitude higher than anything man-portable that doesn't point-detonate.

Curious as to how that kind of lethal force is viewed in US courts/LE policies. I have no issue with it, just curious.

Once a situation merits the application of deadly force, the mechanism is a minor issue. You are using a device that will inflict great bodily harm or death to stop a lethal threat. An officer would be in good standing with the courts in my area.

Failure2Stop
05-07-13, 17:26
Once a situation merits the application of deadly force, the mechanism is a minor issue. You are using a device that will inflict great bodily harm or death to stop a lethal threat.

Understood.

I've been trained on it, know plenty of dudes that have used it, and agree with it. I'm just curious as to how it stands up in court/review and how that effects policy.

mike240
05-07-13, 17:28
The hit ratio is always brought up and criticized in police shootings. I understand since no one wants rounds strewn about their neighborhoods endangering citizens. Many with mil training and experience think mil does it better. Those of in LE in most cases see it different. I used to be shocked at the recently seperated Rangers, Recon etc guys that came to work as cops that were horrible shooters and poor gun handlers. But how many millions of rounds have been fired in Iraq and Astan compared to the hits made?

People move and do things in a fight that targets cannot recreate for training. Fx training is good but also time consuming and expensive. The other thing about training is that no matter how dynamic, students know they cannot get hurt. This fact does effect how and what they do and to what level it is done. The reality of real lethal fire coming your way can effect true performance and decision making.

You hope that Fx type training will desensitize officers through repetition and improve performance under the real world stress of such encounters. But the mindset and level of seriousness in training is invaluable.

T2C
05-07-13, 17:31
Understood.

I've been trained on it, know plenty of dudes that have used it, and agree with it. I'm just curious as to how it stands up in court/review and how that effects policy.

I discussed this with State's Attorneys in my region before training officers to consider using the vehicle as a weapon during a deadly force incident. Unfortunately, I do not have any case law on this.

I also train officers to use the vehicle to penetrate barricaded doors during rapid deployment incidents, especially at schools when an active shooter is involved.

CoryCop25
05-07-13, 21:23
Using the vehicle as a weapon is pretty common in certain circles, but I have never heard about its use inside the US by LE agencies.

The "stopping power" of an automobile is orders of magnitude higher than anything man-portable that doesn't point-detonate.

Curious as to how that kind of lethal force is viewed in US courts/LE policies. I have no issue with it, just curious.

I was involved in an incident two years ago where we were all at the right place at the wrong time and happened to be very close to a bank during a robbery.
As the suspects exited the bank, one of our units were actually in the alley behind the bank. As that unit began to chase the fleeing vehicle, the suspect in the back seat began shooting at the officer behind them. Both vehicles were still moving and the officer was not able to return fire faster than he could ram the suspect vehicle. Because the vehicle was a Ford product, when the suspect vehicle was hit, it engaged the emergency fuel pump shut off and the vehicle came to a stop in about two blocks.
The armed suspects fled and one of the other officers ran one of the suspects over, taking him out of the fight. The other police vehicle (Expedition)was disabled by the gunfire. The shooter was being chased on foot by my partner and when I came around the corner of the building and got the drop on the shooter, he quickly decided that he could not swing his S&W Sigma around fast enough to take on my 5.56. He quickly surrendered himself and the waste in his colon.
My county's district attorney is totally against any vehicle contact for any reason unless deadly force is justified. He was totally ok with how this incident was handled.
http://emmaus.patch.com/articles/knbt-bank-robbed-police-pursuing-suspects

Alaskapopo
05-07-13, 21:36
The hit ratio is always brought up and criticized in police shootings. I understand since no one wants rounds strewn about their neighborhoods endangering citizens. Many with mil training and experience think mil does it better. Those of in LE in most cases see it different. I used to be shocked at the recently seperated Rangers, Recon etc guys that came to work as cops that were horrible shooters and poor gun handlers. But how many millions of rounds have been fired in Iraq and Astan compared to the hits made?

People move and do things in a fight that targets cannot recreate for training. Fx training is good but also time consuming and expensive. The other thing about training is that no matter how dynamic, students know they cannot get hurt. This fact does effect how and what they do and to what level it is done. The reality of real lethal fire coming your way can effect true performance and decision making.

You hope that Fx type training will desensitize officers through repetition and improve performance under the real world stress of such encounters. But the mindset and level of seriousness in training is invaluable.

I shoot with a fair number of active army soldiers in three gun. I will say up here at least the average soldier is a bit better with an AR than the average cop and the average cop is much better with a hand gun than the average soldier at least the ones I have seen at the matches. The reason being soldiers get almost no time on pistols unless its in their specific job duties but they fire their rifles a lot more. The shotgun also tends to favor the cops. That said neither group is as good as they should be and both groups get out shot but avid three gunners. That being said the best shooters at my club are my best friend who is an E7 in the Army and myself who is a LEO.

NCPatrolAR
05-08-13, 04:58
When you have a suspect shooting at you while you are seated I don't see where an issue could arise if you struck the suspect with the vehicle. Lethal force is lethal force and there aren't stages of dead that we can make someone. Remember Graham v Connor



There's a few stories floating around of LEOs being used to hit violent offenders. A lot of guys don't think about doing it though

T2C
05-08-13, 06:31
I spoke with a motorcycle officer from a local agency a few days ago. Without my asking, he said that he recently completed his annual recertification and this issue came up during training. Another officer asked what he should do if a subject exits his vehicle with a firearm and engages the officer. The chief instructor pointed out that the motorcycle provides almost no cover during a gun fight. The chief instructor recommended running over the armed subject if a motor officer is still seated on his motorcycle and the engine is still running when he is attacked.

In most instances, a LEO using a motor vehicle to ram a suspect is frowned upon in my area. I believe that this type of incident would be an exception. If I were on a Grand Jury hearing a case where an officer ran over a subject with his squad car when the subject attacked him with a firearm, I would not vote to indict the officer.

rathos
05-08-13, 06:46
You also have to realize they were doubled up in the car. The first thing I do when doubled as the passenger is jump out and cover the car until my partner can get out to make contact and vice versa. So if the second officer is out of the car if you decide to take off with it you are leaving them high and dry without any cover.

We have also been taught not to get caught in the "metal coffin" as there isn't a lot of places to go inside the car and most of our fleet has ballistic panels in the doors.


When you have a suspect shooting at you while you are seated I don't see where an issue could arise if you struck the suspect with the vehicle. Lethal force is lethal force and there aren't stages of dead that we can make someone. Remember Graham v Connor



There's a few stories floating around of LEOs being used to hit violent offenders. A lot of guys don't think about doing it though

Hmac
05-08-13, 07:51
I shoot with a fair number of active army soldiers in three gun. I will say up here at least the average soldier is a bit better with an AR than the average cop and the average cop is much better with a hand gun than the average soldier at least the ones I have seen at the matches. The reason being soldiers get almost no time on pistols unless its in their specific job duties but they fire their rifles a lot more. The shotgun also tends to favor the cops. That said neither group is as good as they should be and both groups get out shot but avid three gunners. That being said the best shooters at my club are my best friend who is an E7 in the Army and myself who is a LEO.

Can't draw any conclusions from this since neither the average cop nor the average soldier shoots firearms in any kind of competition. Those guys are "firearms enthusiasts". Average cop/average soldier is not.

NCPatrolAR
05-08-13, 09:17
So if the second officer is out of the car if you decide to take off with it you are leaving them high and dry without cover.


This is something that should be discussed when partnered up. While using the car as a weapon can remove 1 aspect of cover from the outside officer, it should provide him a window of opportunity to move to a better position or at least get fire shifted away from him

CoryCop25
05-08-13, 10:44
I have watched this video several times and every time I watch it the hair on my neck stands up. I have been trying to put myself in the car with them. From what I have heard, they are watching the movements in the vehicle and discussing what to do. From the chatter on the radio, it seems like they were waiting for people to stop chatting to call off on the traffic stop. It seems that the driver opens the door of the car to approach and tells the female officer to call the car stop off on the radio when the air clears. As soon as the male officer gets out, the suspect gets out and engages.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 10:56
I have watched this video several times and every time I watch it the hair on my neck stands up. I have been trying to put myself in the car with them. From what I have heard, they are watching the movements in the vehicle and discussing what to do. From the chatter on the radio, it seems like they were waiting for people to stop chatting to call off on the traffic stop. It seems that the driver opens the door of the car to approach and tells the female officer to call the car stop off on the radio when the air clears. As soon as the male officer gets out, the suspect gets out and engages.

You might be right. I thought it was the female officer that got out of the car and walked around to the driver side of the patrol car, and that's when the shooting started. The male officer returned fire through the windshield and the female officer moved around the back of the patrol car.

As for using the vehicle, The West Memphis shoot out is a good example of this. The officer rams the minivan and from what I understand, fired on them with his m4 until it either ran dry or was taken out of the fight, then transitioned to his handgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqbEPkxuW-s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

CoryCop25
05-08-13, 11:04
Unless you know something that I don't, I don't think the female got out of the car.
I have the exact same type of video system in my car. The microphone in the car turns on when the lights are activated. Also, when the lights are activated, the video begins to record (in my car, two minutes BEFORE the lights are turned on). This is why you see the actual traffic violation that got the officer's attention. My car actually records two minutes before and two minutes after I turn the lights on/off. This can be set by whomever is in charge of the video systems in the department.
The reason why I think the female never got out, is because she is heard quite clearly throughout the entire incident. Her voice is being picked up by the in-car mic. I am going to assume that she fired what was in her gun and because she was hit in the hand, did not reload. When the BG is on his knees, you can hear the male officer reloading.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 11:13
Unless you know something that I don't, I don't think the female got out of the car.
I have the exact same type of video system in my car. The microphone in the car turns on when the lights are activated. Also, when the lights are activated, the video begins to record (in my car, two minutes BEFORE the lights are turned on). This is why you see the actual traffic violation that got the officer's attention. My car actually records two minutes before and two minutes after I turn the lights on/off. This can be set by whomever is in charge of the video systems in the department.
The reason why I think the female never got out, is because she is heard quite clearly throughout the entire incident. Her voice is being picked up by the in-car mic. I am going to assume that she fired what was in her gun and because she was hit in the hand, did not reload. When the BG is on his knees, you can hear the male officer reloading.

That's why I said you might be right. I'm taking this from the article written by their local paper. I'm searching for it now and will post back.

That article also states 37 rounds of 7.62x39 were fired and the officers fired 54. From everything else I've heard, it was a few less.

But, I do believe it was the chief that stated she was out of the vehicle.

CoryCop25
05-08-13, 11:20
The things I would like to know are:
Type of handgun (Mayor stated in press conference they have 9MM)
Type of ammo
Movements of officers
Coroner's / Pathologist's report

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 11:23
Here's the article - http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/middlefield_police_release_vid.html

It has Chief Stanko saying one of his officers, Erin Thomas, got out of the patrol car after Gilkerson was pulled over, got to about the driver side door of the cruiser, when Gilkerson bolted from his car and began shooting.

Edit - she returned fire and officer Savage did as well through the windshield of the patrol car. All of his shooting was done from inside the vehicle while her's was done from outside. She then went around the rear of the car after being hit and returned to the passenger side of the patrol car. You can see two separate groups through the windshield, which I believe are both from Savage from what I've heard.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 11:34
From another article


Stanko said his officers saw Gilkerson's car go through a stop sign on Ohio 608, near Pierce Street. They pulled it over.

Thomas, who had only been on the 10-person force for a month, got out of the passenger side of the patrol car, walked behind the patrol car and had reached the driver's door of the cruiser when Gilkerson bolted from his car and began shooting.

Thomas fired back, as did Savage. Stanko said Savage shot through the windshield of the cruiser.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 11:39
And one more...


FYI

MIDDLEFIELD, Ohio - A review is complete into the fatal officer-involved shooting of James Gilkerson and the Geauga County prosecutor reports officers acted in self-defense.

On March 10, dash cam video showed Gilkerson being pulled over by Middlefield police officers Savage and Thomas for failing to stop at the intersection of East High Street and North State Avenue.
The prosecutor's report notes Officer Thomas got out of the passenger side of her cruiser and began walking up to the stopped car when Gilkerson opened the door and began shooting at her "in rapid succession" using an AK-47 style rifle equipped with a 40 round magazine.
Thomas was struck by a bullet in her hand resulting in the amputation of her index finger. Officer Savage began firing at Gilkerson through the cruiser windshield as Officer Thomas got behind the cruiser.
The report notes one of the 29 rounds fired by Officer Savage struck Gilkerson who began to move back toward his vehicle yelling "kill me" while continuing to fire shots at the officers.
Crouched on one knee with his rifle pointed toward the cruiser, Officer Savage fired several shots, fatally striking Gilkerson as Officer Thomas radioed for backup.
Gilkerson was pronounced dead at the scene by the medical examiner. An autopsy showed 19 wounds and nine bullets to his body. The two fatal shots were to his head and chest.
In all, Gilkerson fired 33 rounds at the officers. A search of his car and the trunk revealed multiple loaded magazines and loads of ammunition, ski masks and gloves, military style ammo cans, a scoped .22 caliber rifle, numerous instructional DVDs and books such as "Kitchen Approved Plastic Explosives," "Advance Close-Range Gunfighting," "Homemade Detonators," and many others.
Geauga County Prosecutor James Flaiz noted in his 4-page report that both officers "were in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death due to the actions of James Gilkerson. The only reasonable course for both officers was to use their firearms in self-defense."
Based on the facts, the prosecutor said the incident will not proceed to a Grand Jury.

"The only crimes committed on March 10, 2013 were committed by (Gilkerson)," said Flaiz.

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/ne...kerson#ixzz2SbiBHCcC



The man heard saying he had a pistol was an Amish taxi driver.

The reason for the delay was park rangers had the radio tied up.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 11:44
Here's an interview with Officer Erin Thomas - ignore some of the stupid comments from the hosts.

http://www.roverradio.com/videos/official-show-videos/item/hot-cop-in-deadly-shootout-tells-all

From the interview, during the fight the Amish taxi driver (he's not Amish, he's a taxi driver for the Amish) came up behind the patrol car. Offcier Thomas had emptied the magazine in her handgun and as she was taking cover, the taxi driver took her handgun from her (not sure if he was going to reload it for her or just to set it aside to help with her injuries) and comforted her telling her "your partner has this, if he needs help I have my gun".

This guy deserves some recognition. He passed by right when this started then parked and ran to the patrol car during a fight. During an exchange of gunfire, he comforts the injured officer and is willing to step in should his assistance be needed.

Officer Savage also got out of the vehicle and went to the rear. When he went to the rear to check on Officer Thomas is when he asked if she's been hit. Shortly after, the taxi driver covered the downed shooter with his handgun and kicked the rifle away from him.

CoryCop25
05-08-13, 12:46
The officer/s must have had wireless mics then because they can be heard so well. We can't have those yet because of PA wire tap laws. It makes a lot of sense now. I didn't think of the wireless mics because I can't use mine. This is why I assumed the female officer stayed in the car. The radio interview actually answered a lot of questions.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 12:49
The officer/s must have had wireless mics then because they can be heard so well. We can't have those yet because of PA wire tap laws. It makes a lot of sense now. I didn't think of the wireless mics because I can't use mine. This is why I assumed the female officer stayed in the car. The radio interview actually answered a lot of questions.

Yeah, anyone wondering about specifics needs to listen to the interview.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 12:58
Here's a good example of using the vehicle as a weapon

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c9d_1286561582

Stubby
05-08-13, 13:28
Any vehicle can be used as a weapon..I've seen a case where a golf cart was ruled as one. I wouldn't want to be a police officer in a stand off with my truck .... 16644

Hmac
05-08-13, 14:17
Here's an interview with Officer Erin Thomas - ignore some of the stupid comments from the hosts.

http://www.roverradio.com/videos/official-show-videos/item/hot-cop-in-deadly-shootout-tells-all



Officer Thomas sounds pretty composed about the whole situation, aftermath, and wounds. Impressive.

a) I wonder if an interview like that is authorized

b) A shame to waste an interview like that on a Howard Stern wannabe douchebag and his crew.

jonconsiglio
05-08-13, 14:23
Officer Thomas sounds pretty composed about the whole situation, aftermath, and wounds. Impressive.

a) I wonder if an interview like that is authorized

b) A shame to waste an interview like that on a Howard Stern wannabe douchebag and his crew.

I wondered that as well. They were pushing it a bit at the end with the questions about her being single and some of the other comments. Not a big deal, but they could have handled it better.

DTakas
05-08-13, 14:25
- - - - -

T2C
05-08-13, 16:56
Officer Thomas sounds pretty composed about the whole situation, aftermath, and wounds. Impressive.

a) I wonder if an interview like that is authorized

b) A shame to waste an interview like that on a Howard Stern wannabe douchebag and his crew.

I have been on the other side of the table interviewing officers who used deadly force. With that in mind this is my opinion on the matter.

I would not talk to the media after being involved in a deadly force incident. I would make sure I retained an attorney and had my ducks in a row before speaking to anyone other than the personnel investigating the case, including my fellow officers. I would have my attorney with me when I was interviewed by investigators. I would never, ever, post anything on the internet about the incident. I would ask my attorney to obtain a court order prohibiting the release of the video until the time indicated in the statute of limitations on initiating civil litigation has expired.

mikelowrey
05-08-13, 17:17
I have been on the other side of the table interviewing officers who used deadly force. With that in mind this is my opinion on the matter.

I would not talk to the media after being involved in a deadly force incident. I would make sure I retained an attorney and had my ducks in a row before speaking to anyone other than the personnel investigating the case, including my fellow officers. I would have my attorney with me when I was interviewed by investigators. I would never, ever, post anything on the internet about the incident. I would ask my attorney to obtain a court order prohibiting the release of the video until the time indicated in the statute of limitations on initiating civil litigation has expired.

Excellent point and very true.

Alaskapopo
05-08-13, 20:47
I have been on the other side of the table interviewing officers who used deadly force. With that in mind this is my opinion on the matter.

I would not talk to the media after being involved in a deadly force incident. I would make sure I retained an attorney and had my ducks in a row before speaking to anyone other than the personnel investigating the case, including my fellow officers. I would have my attorney with me when I was interviewed by investigators. I would never, ever, post anything on the internet about the incident. I would ask my attorney to obtain a court order prohibiting the release of the video until the time indicated in the statute of limitations on initiating civil litigation has expired.

Wise words.
Pat

DTakas
05-08-13, 21:12
- - - - -

Jdbl14
05-08-13, 21:46
She has nothing to worry about. Even in todays crazy world. A guy opened up on her, basically point blank, with an AK.

I listen to that radio show, and while I was not very impressed by the host during this interview, you have to realize that it is a light hearted morning show, not a serious news program.

I thought the officer handled herself well, and represented LEOs in a positive way. From what she said her department has her back 100% as they should.

She probably chose to go on the program because it is the regions #1 morning radio show. And whether or not it matters the host is a CCW supporter and pretty pro gun, although he is somewhat ignorant of the facts when it comes to MSRs.

glockshooter
05-08-13, 22:27
Thank you Jesus for TV and for that guy having no idea what he was doing! I actually started to tear up a little when I heard her voice (my wife is a patrol officer).

I love the fact that you hear that old mans voice, he was so ready to help them in any way he could, they did a great job focusing on the threat but still on each other and there surroundings. Good training in that department.

I am not sure what your experience level is but no part of this video other than they fought though it shows good training. Both of these officers are alive because the suspect sucked. Both of these officers would likely be dead if the suspect had any amount of skill. I am a police trainer and I could write a book on the mistakes that were made. This situation reminds me of me of something LTC Grossman said during bulletproof mind. The people with the most medals on their chest are usually people that made mistakes and happened to live through it.

Matt

nml
05-08-13, 23:34
launching the car at him might have been their fastest response, neutralized the threat, or gotten them out of the line of fire quickly.I liked the officer's response. Quick engagement, steady ROF and multiple hits.

Alaskapopo
05-08-13, 23:50
I liked the officer's response. Quick engagement, steady ROF and multiple hits.

I agree. There is not much you can do in a situation like this other than dismount and lay lead down at the suspect as fast and as accurately as you can. The wrong thing to do would have been to try and run for cover. Cops have been shot in the back doing that. Using what concealment/weak cover they had and firing back was their option.
Pat

TSiWRX
05-09-13, 12:01
That said, there are several gun-ranges relatively close to that area, and recent revisions to Ohio laws - would mean that he could legally have had loaded long-gun magazines (as long as the weapon itself was not loaded, and also with some other stowage considerations), provided that he had a valid Ohio-CHL.

^ I made the previous post above.....

But I failed to realize the obvious - that this incident didn't happen all that recently. :o

The date of the incident was March 10. That would have placed it before Ohio HB 495 became effective. Loaded long-gun magazines in the vehicle would have been illegal, regardless of concealed-carry licensure.

My apologies to those who were reading the details. :o

DTakas
05-09-13, 17:21
- - - - -

Alpha Sierra
05-09-13, 22:07
That said, there are several gun-ranges relatively close to that area, and recent revisions to Ohio laws - would mean that he could legally have had loaded long-gun magazines (as long as the weapon itself was not loaded, and also with some other stowage considerations), provided that he had a valid Ohio-CHL.

Possession of an OH CHL is absolutely NOT a requirement to be able to now legally transport loaded magazines so long as the relatively easy storage requirements are complied with and there is no ammo physically in the firearm.

I have no idea why people in this state love to invent shit that is clearly not in the law, and that's one of the reasons I left the OFCC forum long ago.

Jdbl14
05-09-13, 22:27
I have no idea why people in this state love to invent shit that is clearly not in the law, and that's one of the reasons I left the OFCC forum long ago.

I agree whole heartedly. I'd say that 90% of the people I talk to in Ohio have no clue what our laws are.

PD Sgt.
05-10-13, 00:32
When you have a suspect shooting at you while you are seated I don't see where an issue could arise if you struck the suspect with the vehicle. Lethal force is lethal force and there aren't stages of dead that we can make someone. Remember Graham v Connor

There's a few stories floating around of LEOs being used to hit violent offenders. A lot of guys don't think about doing it though

This. I tell my officers that deadly force is deadly force. The only difference is the delivery method. We have had several officers utilize vehicles, and all have been found within policy/justified.

Failure2Stop
05-10-13, 09:05
I find it entertaining that some PDs hem and haw about CNS shots whereas others are encouraging officers to run the threat over with their cruiser.

Frankly, we need more of the latter.

WillBrink
05-10-13, 09:25
I liked the officer's response. Quick engagement, steady ROF and multiple hits.

If you read my entire post, you see the statement was in no way intended as arm chair quarterbacking or criticism of the officers.

TSiWRX
05-10-13, 10:54
I wondered if it happened before the new mag transport rule went into effect but I didn't bother to check the dates.

I don't know why my brain didn't make the date-jump until just yesterday. :fie::D



Also don't forget that a loaded 40 round mag is a no go in Ohio too.

^ Doh! To be honest, that was another thing I'd overlooked! :eek:

I need to slow down when watching online vids. :lol:


Possession of an OH CHL is absolutely NOT a requirement to be able to now legally transport loaded magazines so long as the relatively easy storage requirements are complied with and there is no ammo physically in the firearm.

I have no idea why people in this state love to invent shit that is clearly not in the law, and that's one of the reasons I left the OFCC forum long ago.

:eek:

You are correct - I don't know if I simply misread others' posts, or if I invented it in my mind ([/i]ETA: it was both - there were misinformed posts, but there were counterposts which corrected for those mistakes...and I read too fast and did not properly absorb the points made in the counterposts[/I]) - regardless, my apologies for propagating misleading info. Pertinent sections of ORC follows:



....
(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.

(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:

(1) In a closed package, box, or case;

(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;

(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.

....

(5)

(a) "Unloaded" means

, with respect to a firearm other than a firearm described in division (K)(6) of this section, that no ammunition is in the firearm in question, no magazine or speed loader containing ammunition is inserted into the firearm in question , and one of the following applies:

(i) There is no ammunition in a magazine or speed loader that is in the vehicle in question and that may be used with the firearm in question.

(ii) Any magazine or speed loader that contains ammunition and that may be used with the firearm in question is stored in a compartment within the vehicle in question that cannot be accessed without leaving the vehicle or is stored in a container that provides complete and separate enclosure.

(b) For the purposes of division (K)(5)(a)(ii) of this section, a "container that provides complete and separate enclosure" includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:

(i) A package, box, or case with multiple compartments, as long as the loaded magazine or speed loader and the firearm in question either are in separate compartments within the package, box, or case, or, if they are in the same compartment, the magazine or speed loader is contained within a separate enclosure in that compartment that does not contain the firearm and that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents or the firearm is contained within a separate enclosure of that nature in that compartment that does not contain the magazine or speed loader;

(ii) A pocket or other enclosure on the person of the person in question that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents.

(c) For the purposes of divisions (K)(5)(a) and (b) of this section, ammunition held in stripper-clips or in en-bloc clips is not considered ammunition that is loaded into a magazine or speed loader.

(6) "Unloaded" means, with respect to a firearm employing a percussion cap, flintlock, or other obsolete ignition system, when the weapon is uncapped or when the priming charge is removed from the pan.

(7) "Commercial motor vehicle" has the same meaning as in division (A) of section 4506.25 of the Revised Code.

(8) "Motor carrier enforcement unit" means the motor carrier enforcement unit in the department of public safety, division of state highway patrol, that is created by section 5503.34 of the Revised Code.

(L) Divisions (K)(5)(a) and (b) of this section do not affect the authority of a person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license to have one or more magazines or speed loaders containing ammunition anywhere in a vehicle, without being transported as described in those divisions, as long as no ammunition is in a firearm, other than a handgun, in the vehicle other than as permitted under any other provision of this chapter. A person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license may have one or more magazines or speed loaders containing ammunition anywhere in a vehicle without further restriction, as long as no ammunition is in a firearm, other than a handgun, in the vehicle other than as permitted under any provision of this chapter.

Amended by 129th General AssemblyFile No.190,HB 495, §1, eff. 3/27/2013.

OK, let's see if I've got this right - currently:
- non Ohio-CHL holders must meet stowage requirements
- valid Ohio-CHL licensees: anywhere but in the gun


I agree whole heartedly. I'd say that 90% of the people I talk to in Ohio have no clue what our laws are.

^ I'm new to the gun world - especially long-guns .... still quite green. Trying to keep on top of the laws, where OFCC has helped me a lot both prior to as well as after seeking my Ohio-CHL (which, at first, I only obtained in order to make it less worrisome for range-trips and training classes).

Alpha Sierra
05-12-13, 09:24
OK, let's see if I've got this right - currently:
- non Ohio-CHL holders must meet stowage requirements
- valid Ohio-CHL licensees: anywhere but in the gun.
Your first statement is correct.
Your second statement is not. If you are talking long guns, even CHL holders must meet ALL of the transport requirements including the transport requirements for loaded magazines.

A CHL authorizes you ONLY to have loaded handguns in the vehicle, see ORC2523.16(F)(5). A CHL does not authorize you to have loaded long guns in the vehicle. A loaded long gun is one that does not meet ALL the requirements of 2523.16(K)(5)(a).

TSiWRX
05-12-13, 10:36
OK, let's see if I've got this right - currently:
- non Ohio-CHL holders must meet stowage requirements
- valid Ohio-CHL licensees: anywhere but in the gun


Your first statement is correct.
Your second statement is not. If you are talking long guns, even CHL holders must meet ALL of the transport requirements including the transport requirements for loaded magazines.

A CHL authorizes you ONLY to have loaded handguns in the vehicle, see ORC2523.16(F)(5). A CHL does not authorize you to have loaded long guns in the vehicle. A loaded long gun is one that does not meet ALL the requirements of 2523.16(K)(5)(a).

^ Regarding that second statement....



(L) Divisions (K)(5)(a) and (b) of this section do not affect the authority of a person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license to have one or more magazines or speed loaders containing ammunition anywhere in a vehicle, without being transported as described in those divisions, as long as no ammunition is in a firearm, other than a handgun, in the vehicle other than as permitted under any other provision of this chapter. A person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license may have one or more magazines or speed loaders containing ammunition anywhere in a vehicle without further restriction, as long as no ammunition is in a firearm, other than a handgun, in the vehicle other than as permitted under any provision of this chapter.

^ The way I'm reading it, as long as the long-gun is not loaded (no bullet in the chamber, no magazine inserted), its magazine may be anywhere in the vehicle, without any stowage restrictions.....

Is there another piece that I am (persistently) missing? :confused:

Thanks for helping a noob. :)

Alpha Sierra
05-12-13, 13:26
I stand corrected. You are right.

The structure of the Ohio Revised Code sucks dirty dog balls and it forces one to dance from section to section to section. Many of which either contradict each other or appear to do so.

TSiWRX
05-12-13, 15:06
^ No problem at all. I'm more than glad that someone is simply taking the time out of their busy day to help a noob like me. :D

Like you said, it's a confusing read. I could potentially consider myself a science writer - and that's something that puts a lot of readers to sleep right-away :p - but I find it extremely difficult to sort through the verbiage of the ORC and similar documents. That was a *BIG* part of the reason why I joined OFCC two year ago, when I first started shooting. But even so, as you pointed out before, I still managed to get 5 from adding 2 and 2.

We're all human, and I'm glad that we've got each other to help spot our mistakes! :) Thanks again.

Generalpie
10-08-13, 00:02
Honestly I didn't read any of the other posts but I just wanted to say I like how he "covers him" while she calls dispatch. Sounded like about half a mag full of "cover".

Joe