View Full Version : trigger upgrade or free float?
Hello everyone, I have a rifle that I am looking to upgrade, and I think I am either going to get a free float handguard, or a geissele trigger, probably the SSA or possibly the ssa-e.
Does it make sense to do one before the other? I would like to hear whatever advice is available. I did search this topic, but did not come up with results that are applicable to this question.
Thanks for you time.
WickedWillis
05-07-13, 14:33
How accurate are you trying to be? And at what ranges? You will notice more immediate accuracy from a trigger job 1st. The triggers you listed are fantastic BTW.
have the SSA in my PredatAR and SSA-E in my SPR. Awesome triggers for sure, you will not be disappointed.
I think the trigger will give a bigger increase in accuracy, but it depends on the intended use for the rifle.
The rifle is a Daniel Defense XVEZ. I am going for a mid range type setup, if I ever put magnified optics on it, it would be 6x max. I have purchased a PWS FSC556 muzzle device to install. My goal is to make it as easy as possible to make hits accurately and quickly. I am primarily concerned with 0-300 yards.
WickedWillis
05-07-13, 15:30
The rifle is a Daniel Defense XVEZ. I am going for a mid range type setup, if I ever put magnified optics on it, it would be 6x max. I have purchased a PWS FSC556 muzzle device to install. My goal is to make it as easy as possible to make hits accurately and quickly. I am primarily concerned with 0-300 yards.
Okay. I have a DD LPK in my rifle and the trigger is better than most, and I find it a solid carbine trigger. However, the Geissele is a whole other ballgame. Start with the trigger. Get that out of the way 1st. Is that DD non free-floating? I was under the impression every DD came with a free-float barrel and rail? I am probably wrong there.
Okay. I have a DD LPK in my rifle and the trigger is better than most, and I find it a solid carbine trigger. However, the Geissele is a whole other ballgame. Start with the trigger. Get that out of the way 1st. Is that DD non free-floating? I was under the impression every DD came with a free-float barrel and rail? I am probably wrong there.
That rifle uses the EZ carbine drop in rail, non free float.
WickedWillis
05-07-13, 15:36
Thank you!
That rifle uses the EZ carbine drop in rail, non free float.
I think you'd notice a lot more out of the trigger than a FF handguard, especially for those distances. I could be wrong, but I would think ammo may be a bigger factor than FF.
The trigger won't increase the inherent/mechanical accuracy of the rifle. It will make your job of pressing the trigger without disrupting the rifle/barrel easier, which can and usually does increase your real world actual practical accuracy.
Free floating the barrel doesn't necessarily really increase accuracy either, so much as it reduces or negates the effects of some forces. For example, hand pressure, sling pressure, bipod pressure, heat, bracing on a barricade, etc, etc, are more likely to shift your point of impact (POI) if your handguard/rail is not free floated.
Which one first depends on your intended usage for the rifle and your personal preferences, I think. Will you be mounting anything to it that is easier with a rail? Will you maybe end up spending more money in the long run by, for example, buying an MOE handguard + a mount-n-slot light mount, which you then have to replace with a different mount when you get around to changing the handguard?
So I'd think of it that way. What other changes and expenses will be associated with the rail. Because the trigger/FCG is just a stand alone drop in, usually, and nothing else is affected. Handguards/rails, however, will affect other things.
I put a Geissele SSA into my (first/only at the time) AR awhile before I got a free floating handguard.
Now that I am planning changes to my second rifle I think I'll go with the handguard before the trigger, so that I can do all the 'other stuff' without having to think about "will this light mount work when I change rails?" or "will this VFG work when I change rails?".
Okay. I have a DD LPK in my rifle and the trigger is better than most, and I find it a solid carbine trigger. However, the Geissele is a whole other ballgame. Start with the trigger. Get that out of the way 1st. Is that DD non free-floating? I was under the impression every DD came with a free-float barrel and rail? I am probably wrong there.
The XVEZ is a factory configuration that DD used to offer as their base model with the EZCAR 7.0 rail. 2012 was the last year they offered it. When i called DD to ask, they imdicated it was ecactly the same as all their other rifles, only with a different rail. So i was sold... and i'm still satisfied. It's a great rifle. In hindsight I wish I had bit the bullet and put in the extra $300 at the time, but my budget was tight. I wanted a DD rifle, and this configuration was the best option for me at the time. Don't get me wrong, I still love it, but I can now afford a couple more bits and pieces for it. :)
halfmoonclip
05-07-13, 16:34
One caveat about the Geissele triggers; they'll make any other standard triggers feel like crap, and you'll be itching to replace those as well.
Moon
One caveat about the Geissele triggers; they'll make any other standard triggers feel like crap, and you'll be itching to replace those as well.
Moon
Yeah...they will.
I thought my stock Colt trigger was just fine. Then I got an SSA and I thought "yeah, that's pretty nice". A thousand or so rounds later I put the stock Colt trigger into a new build and thought "this trigger kinda sucks".
Ugh. That's why another SSA is second on my list for upgrading that second rifle. Just can't get away from it.
Warp,
I'm with you on the practical vs. mechanical accuracy issue. Like I said, i'm looking to increase hit probability. In the event I go the trigger route (which is the way I'm leaning currently), I am going to install an moe handguard, but I'm not going to mount anything on it.
Warp,
I'm with you on the practical vs. mechanical accuracy issue. Like I said, i'm looking to increase hit probability. In the event I go the trigger route (which is the way I'm leaning currently), I am going to install an moe handguard, but I'm not going to mount anything on it.
Not a defensive rifle, I take it?
Any thoughts on the SSA vs. SSA-E for the applications I have described? My only concern would be avoiding going too light, or does proper trigger discipline and a two stage trigger system make this somewhat of a non issue?
Not a defensive rifle, I take it?
LOL. No, not in the sense that I feel compelled to mount a light to it if that's what you mean. What I need it to do, I need it to do in conditions with sufficient ambient light. It would probably not be a first grab once lights go out.
LOL. No, not in the sense that I feel compelled to mount a light to it if that's what you mean. What I need it to do, I need it to do in conditions with sufficient ambient light. It would probably not be a first grab once lights go out.
If it isn't really a defensive arm/an arm you'd reach for for defense, I'd go with an SSA-E based on everything I have read. I have not shot one, though, only the SSA.
If it isn't really a defensive arm/an arm you'd reach for for defense, I'd go with an SSA-E based on everything I have read. I have not shot one, though, only the SSA.
Yeah, it's not my primary defensive option. It would only ever be used defensively in the rarest of near unimaginable extremes.
If it isn't really a defensive arm/an arm you'd reach for for defense, I'd go with an SSA-E based on everything I have read. I have not shot one, though, only the SSA.
Excellent. Thank you for your time and input.
halfmoonclip
05-07-13, 21:35
If there is the slightest chance you'd use it in a social situation, go with the SSA.
The break on the SSA is clean enough for about anything save serious benchrest work, IMHO. Yet it remains heavy enough to be safe when pulse and adrenaline are up.
Moon
Chrisollis
05-07-13, 23:08
out to 300 yards unless your shooting from a bench and really shooting for 1/2 MOA groups, You likely wouldn't notice the difference from a FF or non FF. A match grade trigger couldn't hurt, unless as others stated it's your HD gun... I've been using a KAC RAS on one gun and a troy TRX on another for a few years and really haven't noticed MUCH of a difference accuracy wise. With a acog hits on steel out to 500 are easily achievable with my non FF RAS equipped carbine.
Hello everyone, I have a rifle that I am looking to upgrade, and I think I am either going to get a free float handguard, or a geissele trigger, probably the SSA or possibly the ssa-e.
Does it make sense to do one before the other? I would like to hear whatever advice is available. I did search this topic, but did not come up with results that are applicable to this question.
Thanks for you time.
From your post, I assume you will eventually be getting both. If so, it doesn't matter which you get first. Just keep your eyes peeled and whichever you come across a good deal for first, jump on it!
I have the SSA and the SSA-E and like them both. While I really like how crisp the SSA-E is, the SSA is a more practical trigger for fast action shooting, plinking and hunting especially when the hands get stiff from the cold or some other condition
From your post, I assume you will eventually be getting both. If so, it doesn't matter which you get first. Just keep your eyes peeled and whichever you come across a good deal for first, jump on it!
I have the SSA and the SSA-E and like them both. While I really like how crisp the SSA-E is, the SSA is a more practical trigger for fast action shooting, plinking and hunting especially when the hands get stiff from the cold or some other condition
This. A Troy Alpha or lower cost Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS-Series tube would be good choices on forends. Any of the Geissele triggers will make you happier than a mil-spec.
I will say this though, a $12 set of JP springs, speed cut hammer and light fluff & buff on the hammer/trigger engagement will do wonders for a stock trigger until you have the $$$ for the Geissele.
This is excellent information. It sounds like the SSA is significantly lighter and more crisp than a stock trigger, and the SSA-E is even more so, but perhaps too light to be practical outside of competition or dedicated precision applications. Also I did want to address the improvement in accuracy afforded by a FF rail. If Iam within 500 yards and not locked up tight on a sling, is the FF factor negligible? A large part of the motivation behind picking up a FF rail was to get an extended model to gain the extra forward hand space. The accuracy increase would be great, but if it's really quite small maybe I should save the money on it all together.
Look into the G2S from Geissele. You can get them for $160 shipped from http://www.tieronearms.com/product-p/g2s.htm
This trigger feels 99.9% like the SSA. I have both and really like the G2S as the best bang for the buck.
PatrioticDisorder
05-08-13, 08:04
If there is the slightest chance you'd use it in a social situation, go with the SSA.
The break on the SSA is clean enough for about anything save serious benchrest work, IMHO. Yet it remains heavy enough to be safe when pulse and adrenaline are up.
Moon
What's wrong with an SSA-E on a defensive rifle? 1lbs. difference in pull?
What's wrong with an SSA-E on a defensive rifle? 1lbs. difference in pull?
The vast majority of people I have seen talk about this, on this board and on other boards, say that, yes, the difference in pull is what makes the SSA much preferred for a defensive rifle.
Failure2Stop
05-08-13, 08:40
The trigger won't increase the inherent/mechanical accuracy of the rifle. It will make your job of pressing the trigger without disrupting the rifle/barrel easier, which can and usually does increase your real world actual practical accuracy.
Free floating the barrel doesn't necessarily really increase accuracy either, so much as it reduces or negates the effects of some forces. For example, hand pressure, sling pressure, bipod pressure, heat, bracing on a barricade, etc, etc, are more likely to shift your point of impact (POI) if your handguard/rail is not free floated.
This.
From a practical perspective, the HG will be of more immediate performance improvement if you use the gun for things other than just group-shooting.
If you are more worried about group-shooting, the priority would go toward the trigger, though the base system you are discussing is not really built for that.
This.
From a practical perspective, the HG will be of more immediate performance improvement if you use the gun for things other than just group-shooting.
If you are more worried about group-shooting, the priority would go toward the trigger, though the base system you are discussing is not really built for that.
So to summarize, you are saying that free floating the handguard is more of a practical upgrade, and the trigger would be more of a bench shooting upgrade? I would have guessed it to be almost the exact opposite of that.
Also, what is it about my base rifle do you feel is not built for shooting groups? Or are you just saying that it's not a purpose built bench rifle?
PatrioticDisorder
05-08-13, 09:18
The vast majority of people I have seen talk about this, on this board and on other boards, say that, yes, the difference in pull is what makes the SSA much preferred for a defensive rifle.
I guess what I'm asking, is this for practical purposes, like a difference in Reliability of the triggers? Or is this for legal purposes? Cause I simply don't buy into the argument that a "light" trigger will hang you in court.
I guess what I'm asking, is this for practical purposes, like a difference in Reliability of the triggers? Or is this for legal purposes? Cause I simply don't buy into the argument that a "light" trigger will hang you in court.
Nobody is making that argument.
It isn't either of things.
It is the idea that an overly-light trigger is, from a practical standpoint, not a very good idea for a defensive or duty rifle.
At least that's my take on it.
The trigger upgrade allows the shooter greater control over when the shot breaks. The trigger does not affect the mechanical accuracy of the rifle- that is, if you were to place the rifle in a shooting cradle to remove all possible shooter error, changing the trigger would not affect one way or the other how well the rifle groups. For a shooter to see improvement in their shooting with a trigger upgrade, the shooter must have good trigger control.
A free float tube may or may not have an affect on the mechanical accuracy. It will eliminate any affect the handguard might have on barrel harmonics and eliminates possibility that any pressure place on the handguard will change the point of impact. A free float tube eliminates any variables that might be introduced by using a regular handguard.
I have a MOE on my carbine and from field positions (offhand, sitting, prone) it shoots well enough that with iron sights or the Aimpoint H1, I can consistently break clay pigeons out to 200 yards. For what I want the carbine to do, that's good enough. On a precision AR, I have a FF tube with no rails. With the right ammo, three shots at 100 yards will about touch.
If the shooter has enough discipline to maintain the same pressure from the sling or what have you, the rifle will shoot consistently to the same POI. But a free float allows the shooter to not have to worry about it. In the end, the shooter must shoot the rifle enough to determine for themselves if they will see any advantage from a FF tube
The trigger upgrade allows the shooter greater control over when the shot breaks. The trigger does not affect the mechanical accuracy of the rifle- that is, if you were to place the rifle in a shooting cradle to remove all possible shooter error, changing the trigger would not affect one way or the other how well the rifle groups. For a shooter to see improvement in their shooting with a trigger upgrade, the shooter must have good trigger control.
A free float tube may or may not have an affect on the mechanical accuracy. It will eliminate any affect the handguard might have on barrel harmonics and eliminates possibility that any pressure place on the handguard will change the point of impact. A free float tube eliminates any variables that might be introduced by using a regular handguard.
I have a MOE on my carbine and from field positions (offhand, sitting, prone) it shoots well enough that with iron sights or the Aimpoint H1, I can consistently break clay pigeons out to 200 yards. For what I want the carbine to do, that's good enough. On a precision AR, I have a FF tube with no rails. With the right ammo, three shots at 100 yards will about touch.
If the shooter has enough discipline to maintain the same pressure from the sling or what have you, the rifle will shoot consistently to the same POI. But a free float allows the shooter to not have to worry about it. In the end, the shooter must shoot the rifle enough to determine for themselves if they will see any advantage from a FF tube
I fully understand mechanical accuracy vs. marksmanship. However, equating the situation to pistol shooting for instance, if I have a pistol with acceptable accuracy and a marginal trigger. Assuming a reasonably decent shooter, in my experience upgrading the trigger would yield better results than, say buying a match barrel ( even though the trigger doesn't actually effect accuracy).
PatrioticDisorder
05-08-13, 10:05
It is the idea that an overly-light trigger is, from a practical standpoint, not a very good idea for a defensive or duty rifle.
It's probably me being dense as usual, I just don't see the disadvantage of having a 3lbs trigger vs. 4lbs trigger if you ever need to use it, reliability and durability of triggers being equal.
Failure2Stop
05-08-13, 10:06
So to summarize, you are saying that free floating the handguard is more of a practical upgrade, and the trigger would be more of a bench shooting upgrade? I would have guessed it to be almost the exact opposite of that.
Also, what is it about my base rifle do you feel is not built for shooting groups? Or are you just saying that it's not a purpose built bench rifle?
Correct.
Real application of a rifle involves barricades, support, and positions other than the standing. In recent years the focus has been on close-range application of the carbine, and while that is an essential skill, it is not the be-all end-all of carbine skills. Practical performance with the carbine from 50 to 300 meters (it's true strength over other options) benefits when pressure on the handguard in different positions/support does not effect POI.
A "nicer" trigger can permit the shooter to more precisely release the shot, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if handguard pressure variations that the shooter isn't aware of is sending the shot to the wrong place. If a shooter can manage a stock Glock trigger adequately to consistently place shots within the "9" ring of a B8 target at 25 yards then they have sufficient trigger control to hit torso sized targets at distances 20x further with a carbine with a stock trigger.
As far as the rifle itself goes; it's built to be a practical carbine. I'm sure it can get in the 1-2 MOA area if fed match ammo, but a precision gun it is not. If your focus is on a high degree of precision there are better ways to get there. Precision-focused tasks generally eschew close-range benefits to squeeze the most out of the system. If the goal is utmost precision the path is generally to remove the human-induced variables and inconsistencies as much as possible. Part of this is the trigger, as is the handguard/barrel. I'm not intending to imply that precision does not benefit from removing handguard-pressure sensitivity (and freedom of barrel oscillation) but rather that in the arena of practical shooting it makes more of an immediately noticeable benefit than a trigger upgrade will.
Further, getting a handguard that provides more available space for accessory mounting and hand placement will benefit the shooter more than a trigger upgrade (unless the trigger is completely unserviceable to start with). There are several options available for numerous sources.
A good trigger is nice, don't get me wrong, but they make the biggest difference to the precision-oriented or specialized-application user. A good free-floating handguard is a benefit to every user.
I have the SSA-E, though not a "precision" gun persay, but I like on my rifle with the ACOG when shooting out to 500 yards plus.
Compared to a Mil-Spec trigger, such as the ACT trigger, it is A LOT lighter feeling, to me. Since I shot with it with an Aimpoint, on the same rifle, and focused on close in work, I got use to its light pull. I know exactly when and where it will break. And how I hard I need to press it. Remember it has two stages, the second stage breaks very easily, though you will not notice either shooting quickly, or at least I did not.
Under stress, however, I can see how it could be a liability. With adrenaline you may be on the trigger heavier than usual.
Trigger. YOU drive the gun and determine when it shoots. A shitty trigger will hold you back.
A standard "A1" trigger trumps a 3-round burst group. Neither is even in the same league as a Geissele.
The HUGE majority of rifle and carbine owners will NEVER be able to exploit the difference between a standard and floating barrel. If you shoot small targets at 300 yards and beyond you might consider a free-float if you can tell the difference.
Spend the money you'd spend on a rail on ammo.
Trigger. YOU drive the gun and determine when it shoots. A shitty trigger will hold you back.
A standard "A1" trigger trumps a 3-round burst group. Neither is even in the same league as a Geissele.
The HUGE majority of rifle and carbine owners will NEVER be able to exploit the difference between a standard and floating barrel.
Spend the money you'd spend on a rail on ammo.
This is kind of what I had been thinking, hence my pistol analogy a few posts back. Since everyone is here and helping... :).
How about the PWS FSC556 considering my stated applications/ intentions, money well spent?
Failure2Stop
05-08-13, 12:29
Spend the money you'd spend on a rail or trigger on ammo.
-my addition in red
You won't know what is your best upgrade until you know what parts are failing you.
-my addition in red
You won't know what is your best upgrade until you know what parts are failing you.
While I think that that is generally sound advice... the end result is always the same, a well practiced shooter with a broken rifle. If you never change any hardware you will never have any have any idea how the different variables will effect your performance until you've swapped them out. I'm not disagreeing on the importance of practice/ training, but I don't think that practicing endlessly with the same equipment configuration is any way to figure out what gear setup will allow you to do your best shooting. Those are two sides of the same coin.
Failure2Stop
05-08-13, 13:02
While I think that that is generally sound advice... the end result is always the same, a well practiced shooter with a broken rifle. If you never change any hardware you will never have any have any idea how the different variables will effect your performance until you've swapped them out. I'm not disagreeing on the importance of practice/ training, but I don't think that practicing endlessly with the same equipment configuration is any way to figure out what gear setup will allow you to do your best shooting. Those are two sides of the same coin.
I think you are selling the rifle short if you consider it "broken". There are ways to improve every aspect of it, but as it comes from the box it is ready to go. Only after some use will you have an idea of what "needs" to be changed. Generally I say that point comes after two classes and a few thousand rounds of practice past that.
You have received differing advice from two highly experienced end-users. At the end of the day it's your decision and your money.
Shoot 5,000 or more rounds in a box-stock rifle or carbine in an intense training course -- say two to three weeks, shooting every day. You will establish a baseline on how fast and accurately you can shoot.
You SHOULD end up shooting fairly tight and fast, and will be intimately familiar with that weapon -- how it cycles, how it feels when it goes dry and locks back, what you need to lube, what breaks or you need to keep an eye on.
Change ONE thing to help you shoot faster -- perhaps add a red dot, muzzle brake, or the trigger, but NOT more than one thing at a time.
Go back to your baseline and see (objectively, say against a timer and score) if, or how much it helped.
Most questions like the OP's come up because the guy asking honestly just doesn't know.
Too many will try to make up for capability to mimic something they saw on TV or in the movies because the actors or competitors are using something -- perhaps because that's what's in the show's weapons and props locker.
I think you are selling the rifle short if you consider it "broken". There are ways to improve every aspect of it, but as it comes from the box it is ready to go. Only after some use will you have an idea of what "needs" to be changed. Generally I say that point comes after two classes and a few thousand rounds of practice past that.
You have received differing advice from two highly experienced end-users. At the end of the day it's your decision and your money.
Yes, and I am highly appreciative of all of the response and advice I've received, it's why I asked the question in the first place.
Please don't mistake my dissention for lack of appreciation.
As far as the "broken" rifle thing, I was referencing your statement that: You won't know what your best upgrade is until you know which parts are failing you. If I shoot the rifle to failure parts will have failed. Failure in that context is synonymous with breakage. That's all I meant. I was really just looking for advice and conversation on the matter, and i received both. I'm sorry if I have agitated anyone. Thanks for your time.
If there is the slightest chance you'd use it in a social situation, go with the SSA.
The break on the SSA is clean enough for about anything save serious benchrest work, IMHO. Yet it remains heavy enough to be safe when pulse and adrenaline are up.
Moon
What a perfect description of how the SSA trigger is. :cool:
Shoot 5,000 or more rounds in a box-stock rifle or carbine in an intense training course -- say two to three weeks, shooting every day. You will establish a baseline on how fast and accurately you can shoot.
Oh how I wish I could afford to do this. :(
For us average-joe's that is generally not feasible, I think. Cost of ammo, cost of the training, time off from work and other obligations, travel expenses and all that.
It's a definite goal to work towards though!
Oh how I wish I could afford to do this. :(
For us average-joe's that is generally not feasible, I think. Cost of ammo, cost of the training, time off from work and other obligations, travel expenses and all that.
Unfortunately that is so true. I would however love to follow that advice 100% if the opportunity presented itself. :)
Yes, and I am highly appreciative of all of the response and advice I've received, it's why I asked the question in the first place.
Please don't mistake my dissention for lack of appreciation.
As far as the "broken" rifle thing, I was referencing your statement that: You won't know what your best upgrade is until you know which parts are failing you. If I shoot the rifle to failure parts will have failed. Failure in that context is synonymous with breakage. That's all I meant. I was really just looking for advice and conversation on the matter, and i received both. I'm sorry if I have agitated anyone. Thanks for your time.Hey Tom, welcome to the site! You have a quality rifle to start with and we understand that it would take a lot to have normal physical parts failure OR failure of those stock parts in their ability to keep pace with your own personal skills. Since I do not want to assume what your level of competency or personal skill set is in regards to marksmanship or in overall shooting, I will offer the following as a generalization of what I tend to suggest or what I see as commonplace.
I will also tend to suggest that shooters hone and press their own personal skills / abilities until the rifle truly becomes the limiting factor. In the grand scheme of the shooting world very few get to that point in their own personal skills where they have genuinely outpaced the ability of the rifle. You might find more types here at m4c who do it, but in the general shooting world, few accomplish this. Now I am not saying that someone, even a novice shooter, might not see an immediate improvement in their performance by making an immediate upgrade, but did that truly help them? I will say that in the long run, the shooter who has completely taxed the system in its base configuration will have a far greater understanding of the weapon, the sum of their parts and how those parts or changes to the rifle directly reflects in their own skills vs. the guy who pressed the "easy button" from the get go. I would also go as far to say that the former shooter will have higher quality skills then the guy who hit the "easy button" from the start.
Of course if they are just in it for some simple leisure / status and have the resources to put a dress and lipstick on their rifle so that they can have that trophy rifle and show her off to the fellas, have at it. :)
...As far as the "broken" rifle thing, I was referencing your statement that: You won't know what your best upgrade is until you know which parts are failing you...
If I may be so bold, F2S isn't speaking of shooting the rifle until something breaks, he's speaking of shooting the rifle until something fails to meet the needs/wants of the shooter.
For example, I started shooting my carbine with a standard GI trigger. At first, it was heavy, creepy, gritty and unpredictable. It was also installed dry. I removed, cleaned, inspected and lubed it prior to re-installation. Now it was just heavy (although a bit lighter) and creepy. The grittiness was gone and it became predictable and I was able to shoot pretty well with it. However, after awhile, I began to notice that the GI trigger took more concentration to make precise shots on small targets than when using the SSA-E trigger which is installed in the lower for my precision AR. I also noted that lighter pull of the SSA-E required greater concentration to prevent breaking the shot too early when shooting fast. I have since installed the SSA and for me, it's the best carbine trigger.
Why I Feel the SSA is a Better Carbine Trigger than the SSA-E
Up until just a few years ago, I could easily manipulate a light trigger. In fact, I would have considered the SSA-E as heavy as I'd go. Now, my hands are getting stiff and I find the heavier pull of the SSA is easier to control, especially when my hands get cold.
(Strictly off the record mind, I will tell you this- Installing an SSA trigger in your carbine will give you much greater instant gratification and put a bigger smile on your face than a FF tube)
Failure2Stop
05-08-13, 16:10
If I may be so bold, F2S isn't speaking of shooting the rifle until something breaks, he's speaking of shooting the rifle until something fails to meet the needs/wants of the shooter.
And Bingo was his name-o
And Bingo was his name-o
Yeah, i suppose I kind of got that. It's just not something I consider to be good or helpful advice, so I was giving the benefit of doubt. If I didn't feel that both the trigger and handguard were areas that could readily be improved, I wouldn't have asked the question, so it seems a touch condescending to recommend I keep shooting until I have figured out what to improve.
If I had enough cash for either a trigger or to free float the barrel, I would definitely choose the trigger. The geissele ssa is amazing compared to a gi spec trigger.
From my mobile phone
Failure2Stop
05-09-13, 07:43
Yeah, i suppose I kind of got that. It's just not something I consider to be good or helpful advice, so I was giving the benefit of doubt. If I didn't feel that both the trigger and handguard were areas that could readily be improved, I wouldn't have asked the question, so it seems a touch condescending to recommend I keep shooting until I have figured out what to improve.
I'm sorry if the advice to shoot your gun to the point of proficiency was taken as condescending; that's how everyone I know that gets paid to carry a gun and work in this industry got to their level of knowledge/skill.
I was a bit flabbergasted by your statement, but then I had a beer and remembered that it's the internet, and none of this really means much.
Hope you find what you are looking for.
Littlelebowski
05-09-13, 07:55
I just don't get this obsession with $200-$300 triggers on carbines. I just don't.
I just don't get this obsession with $200-$300 triggers on carbines. I just don't.
Like rims on a car. They all do the same thing, but some folks like some better than others. Some are also willing to pay more for real, or even perceived, quality. Instead of lighter weight/better handling/larger brakes, it's reduced creep/lighter pull/more accurate at distance. 99% of the people buying them may never take advantage of the performance benefits and a lot of them might just be getting them for the look and the bragging rights. M4C seems to have a lot of the people who actually use their rifles rather than stare at them with their friends, but I'm sure that there are a few folks around that snapped up parts on name alone.
And just like rims on a car, I've spent plenty on triggers, so this is by no means a slam to either school of thought. I've at least been fortunate enough to get rounds downrange and my car on the track, so I feel it all to be money well spent.
You don't have to get the Gucci trigger love. Everybody is different in what they want. Myself, I don't get quad rails, vertical hand grips, rail covers, or AFGs. Others don't get why I'd rather have a polymer or composite handguard than aluminum. I don't get the obsessive avoidance of proprietary parts.
I find I like the break of the SSA over the GI trigger because it's less work. I find it's less mentally fatiguing. If no one else gets it, I'm ok with that because it's my rifle and it's what works for me, just like I'm ok with guys with their miles of rail estate, various foregrips, rail covers or shun proprietary parts- it's their rifle and it's what works for them. I just want to be able to buy ammo again and get back to affordable shooting
wetidlerjr
05-09-13, 08:47
You don't have to get the Gucci trigger love. Everybody is different in what they want. Myself, I don't get quad rails, vertical hand grips, rail covers, or AFGs. Others don't get why I'd rather have a polymer or composite handguard than aluminum. I don't get the obsessive avoidance of proprietary parts.
I find I like the break of the SSA over the GI trigger because it's less work. I find it's less mentally fatiguing. If no one else gets it, I'm ok with that because it's my rifle and it's what works for me, just like I'm ok with guys with their miles of rail estate, various foregrips, rail covers and shunning proprietary parts- it's their rifle and it's what works for them. I just want to be able to buy ammo again and get back to affordable shooting
I agree. I don't see any of my Geissele triggers as any kind of obsession but rather as just having what works for me whether on a carbine or not. I try to avoid too much drama concerning the choice of AR triggers.
I agree. I don't see any of my Geissele triggers as any kind of obsession but rather as just having what works for me whether on a carbine or not. I try to avoid too much drama concerning the choice of AR triggers.
Agreed.
Littlelebowski
05-09-13, 09:47
OK, so where does the benefit of not applying pressure to your barrel (free float) pay off? 100 yards? 300? This is a serious question that I can't answer (I'll bet F2S can) but it's my unproven theory that the free float adds more than the expensive trigger.
halfmoonclip
05-09-13, 10:01
Agreed.
The trouble started when I put an SSA in one carbine, and discovered that particular gun was used more often, and that I was more effective with it. Having a gun with and without the SSA, it isn't hard to make the comparison and see what works.
I can get an SSA for $170 from Brownells, and have acquired a couple more for other guns over time. All of them can be considered 'KISS' guns (iron sights!), but the good trigger really makes a difference.
I like busting grounded claybirds out to 50-60 yards off my hind legs; if I can hit that, I'm happy.
Moon
......
(Strictly off the record mind, I will tell you this- Installing an SSA trigger in your carbine will give you much greater instant gratification and put a bigger smile on your face than a FF tube)
:secret:
Failure2Stop
05-09-13, 10:12
OK, so where does the benefit of not applying pressure to your barrel (free float) pay off? 100 yards? 300? This is a serious question that I can't answer (I'll bet F2S can) but it's my unproven theory that the free float adds more than the expensive trigger.
I can vary POI by 5 MOA with sling or barricade pressure.
Lots of gnashing of teeth at the 500 yard line by folks using a sling-stabilized position with ACOGs with non-FF handguards due to alterations in sling tension. Problem is less pronounced with iron sights if the front sight is mounted to the barrel.
Approximately 200,000 data points of comparison to reach the correlation.
OK, so where does the benefit of not applying pressure to your barrel (free float) pay off? 100 yards? 300? This is a serious question that I can't answer (I'll bet F2S can) but it's my unproven theory that the free float adds more than the expensive trigger.
Here we come back to shooting the rifle to find out. If a shooter is getting the performance they are happy with using non-free float handguards, there is no need for an upgrade. (Same is true for the trigger.)
Changing to a free float tube does not guarantee an improvement in mechanical accuracy (just as changing the trigger does not guarantee shooter improvement).
You make a good point that changing to a free float handguard adds more than an expensive trigger, especially when a rifle is used on some sort of rest and even more so if the shooter uses a tight sling. It also keeps the handguards from affecting barrel harmonics. There is a clear mechanical advantage.
There is no mechanical advantage to a trigger upgrade. Regardless of the trigger used, it still does not change the mechanical accuracy of the rifle. The shooter still must be skilled in using the trigger.
To answer your question in a quantifiable way, the shooter must determine how much angle the pressure on the non-FF tube generates and how much deflection they find acceptable at what range. For example, if there is .25" of deflection at 50 yards (.5 MOA), that becomes .5" at 100 and 1.5" at 300. If there is 2" of deflection at 50 yards (4 MOA), that becomes 4" at 100 and 12" at 300. One guy who was experienced on the two way ranged talked about deflecting the POI several inches at close ranges when adrenaline charged force was applied to a vertical foregrip attached to a non-FF handguard. He stated he clearly saw an advantage using a FF tube at CQB distances.
I don't argue for a trigger over a FF tube. If I planned to install both, I'd just get whichever I got a good deal on first. But to be honest, I got greater instant gratification from the purchase of a G trigger than from the FF tube. It's the shooter's choice
I'm sorry if the advice to shoot your gun to the point of proficiency was taken as condescending; that's how everyone I know that gets paid to carry a gun and work in this industry got to their level of knowledge/skill.
I was a bit flabbergasted by your statement, but then I had a beer and remembered that it's the internet, and none of this really means much.
Hope you find what you are looking for.
I think I may be coming across wrong in plain text. The bottom line for me is that this (m4c.net) is an amazing resource, and I really do appreciate everyone's time, experience, and advice, and I do sincerely apologize if I came across any other way.
Once again, thanks for your time and input.
Failure2Stop
05-09-13, 13:44
I think I may be coming across wrong in plain text. The bottom line for me is that this (m4c.net) is an amazing resource, and I really do appreciate everyone's time, experience, and advice, and I do sincerely apologize if I came across any other way.
Once again, thanks for your time and input.
It's cool man, I'm over it :happy:
I don't have nearly as many data points as F2S that I have logged, however I do show every advanced carbine class that I teach, the variables in POA / POI when slung, barricaded, barrel rested, handguard rested and how much varying amounts of pressure on each, can adversely affect impacts and how much shift you can actually get. I also concur that 5 MOA is easily achieved and not far fetched for certain types of shooting. I tend to do this demonstration at 100 yards. Translate those results to 300+ and the impact shift is not even minute of bad guy.
Real application of a rifle involves barricades, support, and positions other than the standing. In recent years the focus has been on close-range application of the carbine, and while that is an essential skill, it is not the be-all end-all of carbine skills.
This. Thank you for stating this so concisely.
How accurate are you trying to be? And at what ranges? You will notice more immediate accuracy from a trigger job 1st. The triggers you listed are fantastic BTW.
+1, I have the SSA-E ...fantastic trigger!
The trouble started when I put an SSA in one carbine, and discovered that particular gun was used more often, and that I was more effective with it. Having a gun with and without the SSA, it isn't hard to make the comparison and see what works.
I can get an SSA for $170 from Brownells, and have acquired a couple more for other guns over time. All of them can be considered 'KISS' guns (iron sights!), but the good trigger really makes a difference.
I like busting grounded claybirds out to 50-60 yards off my hind legs; if I can hit that, I'm happy.
Moon
Agreed, I have seen a noticeable difference after my SSA-E was installed
I put the geissele ssa-e in my BCM before I put free float rails on it and I Really like the trigger.. I'd do the trigger first if I built another gun too..
FF the barrel for consistency and learn the stock trigger.
As former military, I can tell you that you should get a trigger upgrade first because that is the primary interface between man and the weapon. A trigger upgrade makes a huge difference and afterwards if you want to freefloat the weapon, go for it.
Littlelebowski
05-10-13, 03:07
As former military, I can tell you that you should get a trigger upgrade first because that is the primary interface between man and the weapon. A trigger upgrade makes a huge difference and afterwards if you want to freefloat the weapon, go for it.
As former military, I completely disagree.
All of this trigger talk makes me wonder if I am missing out on something.
I have shot a stock trigger and a 2-stage trigger on my HK416, and I cannot really say that I can quantify any noticeable difference in the results down range.
That said, I have never really chased super tight groups with it though. My skill level is adequate for the job I had to do as an infantryman with that particular weapon system. I don't think my gun is holding me back any, in terms of shooting ability.
Trigger, best mod to date.
All of this trigger talk makes me wonder if I am missing out on something.
I have shot a stock trigger and a 2-stage trigger on my HK416, and I cannot really say that I can quantify any noticeable difference in the results down range.
That said, I have never really chased super tight groups with it though. My skill level is adequate for the job I had to do as an infantryman with that particular weapon system. I don't think my gun is holding me back any, in terms of shooting ability.A personal story.
Hello, my name is Surf and yes I too am a parts junkie. There I said it. I generally keep this to myself on a forum such as this because it creates such a stir with those who might be trigger snobs. But I will continue.
I am just like you in that I did not find my trigger to be a limiting factor on the AR/M4 platform in a non-precision, non-magnified rifle. I have done numerous in depth testing of precision at distance, speed up close, speed at distance, etc, etc, testing a USGI vs. a really slick trigger and hours upon hours, thousands upon thousands of rounds of training. One thing that I found through all of this.....For myself there was absolutely NO discernible difference in my performance or abilities with either trigger types. The only thing I noted was that trigger finger fatigue set in sooner with very high round count training sessions (500+) rounds.
I do like a very good trigger in a magnified, precision rifle, but I also have slick triggers in some M4's. So about 18 months ago I decide to build a dedicated "3 Gun" style rifle, just because. Yep the best of everything, trigger included. I also used this rifle to do trigger testing against USGI triggers and have a video on it. I couldn't notice a damn difference in speeds up close, at distance, accuracy out of a non-magnified rifle, you name it. However that "3 Gun" rifle became my training and for fun rifle of choice. I just love the way it handled and looked. Yes, I like the looks. I logged thousands of rounds through it using it every chance I got. Hell I just did a carbine course with it.
You know the one thing that I noticed? I noticed that now when I go back to a USGI trigger rifle, some of the very rifles I tested against this rifle. I now suck with a USGI trigger unless if I actually take the time to get some trigger time and tighten my shit up, so to speak and then I can still shoot the USGI rifles and perform just as well with those rifles.
So what does that tell me? I am probably getting sloppy with my marksmanship skills because of the easier to shoot trigger. I do notice that when I brush up on the USGI rifles, I seem to improve my overall shooting in general and I even seem to shoot the "3 Gun" rifle better. Some might think this makes no sense, but I am definitely NOT concentrating on ALL the fundamentals as heavily when I am shooting a slick rifle, which would make me believe that my results on target would suffer. In other words I get complacent and settle for similar results. I believe that I start to suffer from "crutchitis" because of the parts and I don't my job as well as I should be. And no, I don't think this syndrome would only be relegated to me.
On the flip side, I always go back to my USGI equipped rifles in order to keep myself "reality checked" so to speak. Can't wait until I give another bare bones, irons only course. I need another "reality check". It always improves my game. I am sure that there are many others out there, most infact, who would greatly benefit their shooting by going back to basics from time to time.
There I admitted it. Wow, do I feel better. That was almost therapeutic. :)
As former military, I completely disagree.
That's fine if you want to disagree, go for it, but from the majority of everyone on this thread, a good trigger job is common sense and something I would choose over a free float hand guard. If I were building an AR, I would place primary concern on a good trigger, a good barrel, and a good BCG. Then afterwards enroll in a carbine class and get good training.
Littlelebowski
05-10-13, 16:55
That's fine if you want to disagree, go for it, but from the majority of everyone on this thread, a good trigger job is common sense and something I would choose over a free float hand guard. If I were building an AR, I would place primary concern on a good trigger, a good barrel, and a good BCG. Then afterwards enroll in a carbine class and get good training.
Did you see what F2S wrote about deflection? Do you know his background?
Littlelebowski
05-10-13, 17:12
A personal story.
Hello, my name is Surf and yes I too am a parts junkie. There I said it. I generally keep this to myself on a forum such as this because it creates such a stir with those who might be trigger snobs. But I will continue.
I am just like you in that I did not find my trigger to be a limiting factor on the AR/M4 platform in a non-precision, non-magnified rifle. I have done numerous in depth testing of precision at distance, speed up close, speed at distance, etc, etc, testing a USGI vs. a really slick trigger and hours upon hours, thousands upon thousands of rounds of training. One thing that I found through all of this.....For myself there was absolutely NO discernible difference in my performance or abilities with either trigger types. The only thing I noted was that trigger finger fatigue set in sooner with very high round count training sessions (500+) rounds.
I do like a very good trigger in a magnified, precision rifle, but I also have slick triggers in some M4's. So about 18 months ago I decide to build a dedicated "3 Gun" style rifle, just because. Yep the best of everything, trigger included. I also used this rifle to do trigger testing against USGI triggers and have a video on it. I couldn't notice a damn difference in speeds up close, at distance, accuracy out of a non-magnified rifle, you name it. However that "3 Gun" rifle became my training and for fun rifle of choice. I just love the way it handled and looked. Yes, I like the looks. I logged thousands of rounds through it using it every chance I got. Hell I just did a carbine course with it.
You know the one thing that I noticed? I noticed that now when I go back to a USGI trigger rifle, some of the very rifles I tested against this rifle. I now suck with a USGI trigger unless if I actually take the time to get some trigger time and tighten my shit up, so to speak and then I can still shoot the USGI rifles and perform just as well with those rifles.
So what does that tell me? I am probably getting sloppy with my marksmanship skills because of the easier to shoot trigger. I do notice that when I brush up on the USGI rifles, I seem to improve my overall shooting in general and I even seem to shoot the "3 Gun" rifle better. Some might think this makes no sense, but I am definitely NOT concentrating on ALL the fundamentals as heavily when I am shooting a slick rifle, which would make me believe that my results on target would suffer. In other words I get complacent and settle for similar results. I believe that I start to suffer from "crutchitis" because of the parts and I don't my job as well as I should be. And no, I don't think this syndrome would only be relegated to me.
On the flip side, I always go back to my USGI equipped rifles in order to keep myself "reality checked" so to speak. Can't wait until I give another bare bones, irons only course. I need another "reality check". It always improves my game. I am sure that there are many others out there, most infact, who would greatly benefit their shooting by going back to basics from time to time.
There I admitted it. Wow, do I feel better. That was almost therapeutic. :)
Awesome post. Reminds me of many people and 1911s.
A personal story.
Hello, my name is Surf and yes I too am a parts junkie. There I said it. I generally keep this to myself on a forum such as this because it creates such a stir with those who might be trigger snobs. But I will continue.
I am just like you in that I did not find my trigger to be a limiting factor on the AR/M4 platform in a non-precision, non-magnified rifle. I have done numerous in depth testing of precision at distance, speed up close, speed at distance, etc, etc, testing a USGI vs. a really slick trigger and hours upon hours, thousands upon thousands of rounds of training. One thing that I found through all of this.....For myself there was absolutely NO discernible difference in my performance or abilities with either trigger types. The only thing I noted was that trigger finger fatigue set in sooner with very high round count training sessions (500+) rounds.
I do like a very good trigger in a magnified, precision rifle, but I also have slick triggers in some M4's. So about 18 months ago I decide to build a dedicated "3 Gun" style rifle, just because. Yep the best of everything, trigger included. I also used this rifle to do trigger testing against USGI triggers and have a video on it. I couldn't notice a damn difference in speeds up close, at distance, accuracy out of a non-magnified rifle, you name it. However that "3 Gun" rifle became my training and for fun rifle of choice. I just love the way it handled and looked. Yes, I like the looks. I logged thousands of rounds through it using it every chance I got. Hell I just did a carbine course with it.
You know the one thing that I noticed? I noticed that now when I go back to a USGI trigger rifle, some of the very rifles I tested against this rifle. I now suck with a USGI trigger unless if I actually take the time to get some trigger time and tighten my shit up, so to speak and then I can still shoot the USGI rifles and perform just as well with those rifles.
So what does that tell me? I am probably getting sloppy with my marksmanship skills because of the easier to shoot trigger. I do notice that when I brush up on the USGI rifles, I seem to improve my overall shooting in general and I even seem to shoot the "3 Gun" rifle better. Some might think this makes no sense, but I am definitely NOT concentrating on ALL the fundamentals as heavily when I am shooting a slick rifle, which would make me believe that my results on target would suffer. In other words I get complacent and settle for similar results. I believe that I start to suffer from "crutchitis" because of the parts and I don't my job as well as I should be. And no, I don't think this syndrome would only be relegated to me.
On the flip side, I always go back to my USGI equipped rifles in order to keep myself "reality checked" so to speak. Can't wait until I give another bare bones, irons only course. I need another "reality check". It always improves my game. I am sure that there are many others out there, most infact, who would greatly benefit their shooting by going back to basics from time to time.
There I admitted it. Wow, do I feel better. That was almost therapeutic. :)
Great post Surf, thanks!
Did you see what F2S wrote about deflection? Do you know his background?
Settle down, I did read it. I really don't care who he is or his background, what he wrote is based on his experience and from his perspective. I'm not a gadgets guy either, from my own experienced, I believe that training, training, training is the key. On this thread, the guy asked for advice whether a trigger job or handguard, if it was me, a trigger job would be my preference because from my own experience a good quality trigger coupled with other things contributes to accuracy and consistency into making a good rifleman.
You really don't care? That's a bit uncalled for, I think. He is an IP on this board for a reason.
What are your bona fides then? What experience/background do you base your advice to the OP on?
Littlelebowski
05-10-13, 19:28
Settle down, I did read it. I really don't care who he is or his background, what he wrote is based on his experience and from his perspective. I'm not a gadgets guy either, from my own experienced, I believe that training, training, training is the key. On this thread, the guy asked for advice whether a trigger job or handguard, if it was me, a trigger job would be my preference because from my own experience a good quality trigger coupled with other things contributes to accuracy and consistency into making a good rifleman.
Well, **** experience and statistical data, not to mention that 5MOA of deflection is OK in your book.
What are your bona fides then? What experience/background do you base your advice to the OP on?
30 years of shooting both civilian and military combined.
Well, **** experience and statistical data, not to mention that 5MOA of deflection is OK in your book.
Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
Littlelebowski
05-10-13, 20:09
Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
And it's my opinion that age means **** all when it comes to shooting.
http://105.imagebam.com/download/om7c0GDMHFWI1Z5F0IAz2w/25390/253898520/old_lady_purse_fight.gif
When folks say they're shooting a "Stock USGI trigger," are you meaning to say you're shooting that piece of shit 3-round burst set, an M16A1/M4A1 safe-single-auto, or a commercial AR single-stage? I think Arctic1's HK416s come with the A1-style trigger and not the burst crap.
First off, if the OP's not shooting past 200-300 Meters and he's not slung-up, how much is he bending his barrel? He says he's going to mount an MOE handguard with NO accessories clipped to it. At 300 Meters a US E-type silhouette is 13 MOA tall and six MOA wide.
How many of the folks in this Immediate Argument Drill shoot past 300 meters on a regular basis with a stock GI M4 (with the crap trigger and shit issued Green-tip ammo)?
Everyone throws in a great big bag of nickels into the marbles circle and the OP still hasn't defined how he shoots and what he wants the rifle to do -- just asking which of the two might help him the most, first. Do folks jump in with "Stock GI trigger" when they mean a commercial single-stage?
I think Arctic1's HK416s come with the A1-style trigger and not the burst crap.
Correct. Both triggers I have had in my gun are safe-single-auto, but the new one has a two-stage trigger pull. However, the two-stage bit was a sort of hit and miss with the retrofit. Mine got gradually better, with a more profound slack now, then when it was installed.
Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
I'd offer that some opinions are worth more than others.
...Do folks jump in with "Stock GI trigger" when they mean a commercial single-stage?
Guilty as charged. When I say "GI trigger" I mean commercial semi automatic only single stage fire control group. I have never fired an AR with the burst FCG
Most stock triggers are heavy, creepy, and crunchy. I put in a 3lb timney single stage drop in. Light crisp and clean goodness.
Opinions are like assholes, everyones got one.
Dude,.....lay off the damn coffee! You're acting like a fool!
Ask for info then whine about it,.......go to ARFcom, you will fit in better.
Most stock triggers are heavy, creepy, and crunchy. I put in a 3lb timney single stage drop in. Light crisp and clean goodness.
And too light for self defense work.
Dude,.....lay off the damn coffee! You're acting like a fool!
Ask for info then whine about it,.......go to ARFcom, you will fit in better.
I'm cool, wasn't angry when I posted, just disappointed where this forum is going. I quit posting on AR-15.com because of the attitude of many guys there being that if your view or opinion did jive with everyone then your jumped on. I also got away from AR-15.com because of the way newbies are shabbily treated if they asked a simple question. As I said in my posts on this thread, the question was in reference to whether the person inquiring should pick up a nice trigger or free float handguard, I thought the trigger was something that should be picked up first because to me, the trigger is the primary interface between the person and the weapon. Evidently there was opinion against it from others. When I was in the military back in my day, we were required to qualify at the 300 meter range, we had no free float handguards then. Special deployment rifles received "trigger jobs" from our armory. At the range I saw a noticeable difference with those rifles. That's why I backed up rifles with trigger jobs.
And too light for self defense work.
nonsense :D
Littlelebowski
05-12-13, 08:19
I'm cool, wasn't angry when I posted, just disappointed where this forum is going. I quit posting on AR-15.com because of the attitude of many guys there being that if your view or opinion did jive with everyone then your jumped on. I also got away from AR-15.com because of the way newbies are shabbily treated if they asked a simple question. As I said in my posts on this thread, the question was in reference to whether the person inquiring should pick up a nice trigger or free float handguard, I thought the trigger was something that should be picked up first because to me, the trigger is the primary interface between the person and the weapon. Evidently there was opinion against it from others. When I was in the military back in my day, we were required to qualify at the 300 meter range, we had no free float handguards then. Special deployment rifles received "trigger jobs" from our armory. At the range I saw a noticeable difference with those rifles. That's why I backed up rifles with trigger jobs.
I had to qualify at 500 yards in the military with a stock M16A2 and M4, big whoop de doo. Merely having served doesn't make one an expert.
As I've progressed through my education on how to shoot, I've learned that one can shoot just fine with a standard trigger. Sticking with stock Glocks and the heavy trigger on my 5.45 AR (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2013/01/my-definitive-545x39mm-ar15-article.html) has only reinforced that. At the Defoor Adv Carbine Class (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/12/aarreview-of-kyle-defoor-advanced-2-day.html) I attended, I shot alongside a guy with a tricked out Noveske build, magnified optic, and aftermarket Geissele trigger. This guy is a Marine infantry officer. I was shooting my 5.45 with 80's era Soviet surplus ammo and a 4MOA Aimpoint Micro. Our groups were nearly identical at every range we shot at.
I personally get a lot more use out of a free float rail that I can stretch my weak hand out on for a modern carbine shooting technique. I can adapt to the trigger and triggers get better over time.
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g342/F2SConsulting/F2S%20Consulting%20LLC%20Practical%20Carbine%20Feb25-26%202012/DSC_0678.jpg
I would spend the money set aside for upgrades on ammunition and shoot the rifle as is. If you feel the need to modify the carbine, I would go with a free floating handguard before spending any money on a trigger.
The trigger will get better with use. The free floating handguard will help deal with changes in point of impact caused by changes in sling pressure with stock handguards.
Wormydog1724
05-12-13, 09:07
To me, it depends on what your use for the rifle is. If you're shooting off barricades or from braced positions and are only worried about "man sized" targets, I'd free-float. If you're shooting at great distances (500+) looking for groups that are touching, then both a two stage trigger (SD-E for me) and free-float might be the answer (as well as a match barrel, and probably a caliber different than 556). If you're wanting fast splits at close ranges, a trigger with a short reset (S3G for me) should be what you want. This is purely from my hunting, 3 Gun, and general-shooting-shit-on-the-farm experience. But I just turned 26 y/o so all of what you just read is most likely wrong.
Edit: to me, every firearm I own is a 'defensive weapon'. From my Browning 30-06 a-bolt to my MK18 clone AR-15 to my M&P22 pistol with AAC Element. They each can stop a threat, and being proficient with each is my responsibility.
That's fine if you want to disagree, go for it, but from the majority of everyone on this thread, a good trigger job is common sense and something I would choose over a free float hand guard.
Isnt this the mind set you were talking about that drove you from arfcom?
"I quit posting on AR-15.com because of the attitude of many guys there being that if your view or opinion did jive with everyone then your jumped on."
Not all opinions are created equal and a valuable life skill is discerning those that might know something from those that might be full of shit, especially when those opinions challenge your own.
A trigger upgrade to an SSA was one of the early upgrades I made, mostly because I came from a NM shooting background. Don't get me wrong some stock triggers are miserable but I don't think Id drop the $$ on an SSA after getting an ALG defense QMS. Feels like a nice broke in stock unit for maybe $10 more.
The floating forends improved user interface for me by enabling me to get my support hand out further. I haven't tried intentionally deflecting shots with handguard pressure, so cant comment on that, only what I hear and read from sources ive come to trust.
Ive also qualified expert at 300m with the M-16A2 and the M-4 and ive competed(somewhat successfully) with NM service rifle ARs and stock M-1s out to 600yds and what I learned was that the nut behind the butt was the most important item that needs improvement. Something that I need to work on much harder than I do.
Biggest improvement will likely be a FF rail. ASSuming your already using decent ammo.
A SOCOM study showed improvements, in order, with M4A1's using m855 (terrible ammo)
1- mk262 ammunition
2- FF handguard
Trigger a distant third if using something close to true milspec components. The original SPR's had a M16A1 trigger group. Assorted commands have put KAC, Geisselle, Accuracy Speaks, etc triggers in. As far as I know the Geisselle is the only one with a Navy/SOCOM Safety cert for retrofit into M4 and SR25/MK11 varients
*I don't think Id drop the $$ on an SSA after getting an ALG defense QMS. Feels like a nice broke in stock unit for maybe $10 more.
Pardon my ignorance, but could you explain this a little more? Is this a reference to a product that is more affordable, but comparable to the Geissele?
Biggest improvement will likely a FF rail. ASSuming your already using decent ammo.
A SOCOM study showed improvements, in order, with M4A1's using m855 (terrible ammo)
1- mk262 ammunition
2- FF handguard
Trigger a distant third if using something close to true milspec components. The original SPR's had a M16A1 trigger group. Assorted commands have put KAC, Geisselle, Accuracy Speaks, etc triggers in. As far as I know the Geisselle is the only one with a Navy/SOCOM Safety cert for retrofit into M4 and SR25/MK11 varients
Thank you for this information. The mk262 ammunition is using the 77gr SMK with cannelure at somewhere around 2,700 fps, correct?
Thank you for this information. The mk262 ammunition is using the 77gr SMK with cannelure at somewhere around 2,700 fps, correct?
Yup. It's great stuff.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107145
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03/21/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
I grabbed 200 rounds of it recently. I would have bought more but that was the limit. It's hard to find, and expensive when you do.
Here is a representative group I shot this weekend using my Colt 6920 with free floating handguard and Geissele SSA (optic a Trijicon Accupoint with triangle reticle set to 4x). Shot prone with the magazine as a monopod, with a called flyer. My other groups were generally a little bit more open than that (not much) but without a shooter-induced flyer.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/20130510_134523_zps4debc98e.jpg
Coal Dragger
05-12-13, 10:49
A good trigger is for me the best bang for the buck in improving practical accuracy on just about any firearm. My vote goes to putting in a good trigger.
Pardon my ignorance, but could you explain this a little more? Is this a reference to a product that is more affordable, but comparable to the Geissele?
Sort of. Im not sure of how the businesses work but ALG defense is a parallel company to Geissele, (run by Bill Geissele's wife) that so far markets 2 triggers the QMS and ACT. Both start off as quality stock single stage triggers. The QMS (quality mil spec) is a cleaned up stock trigger that breaks at the bottom end of the range given for a GI trigger, about 5.5lbs, runs about $45. The ACT (advanced combat trigger) adds a hardlube plating of some sort, $65 but otherwise the same as the QMS.
How does it compare to an SSA? The SSA works great with my acog equipped carbine but had my stock single stage trigger felt like the QMS I wouldn't have bothered seeking an upgrade. The SSA is a good trigger but unless Im focusing on taking a shot requiring a certain degree of precision I end up just pulling thru both stages. In this capacity I feel the $45 trigger does just as good of a job and doesn't bother me on more carefully taken shots.
http://www.algdefense.com/
Last time I checked ALG didn't have an online ordering system, I got mine from bravocompany.
In the end the ALG isn't a magical trigger and it not as refined as an SSA but it is relatively cheap. You aren't rolling the dice on a $30-35 factory trigger that may run up to 8lbs and there is instant gratification in saving the time and ammo it takes to smooth out a stock trigger.
Yup. It's great stuff.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107145
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03/21/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
I grabbed 200 rounds of it recently. I would have bought more but that was the limit. It's hard to find, and expensive when you do.
That's excellent. I can't wait for the current ammo/ firearm shortage to be a thing of the past.
Hello everyone, I have a rifle that I am looking to upgrade, and I think I am either going to get a free float handguard, or a geissele trigger, probably the SSA or possibly the ssa-e.
Does it make sense to do one before the other? I would like to hear whatever advice is available. I did search this topic, but did not come up with results that are applicable to this question.
Thanks for you time.
What makes a rifle a shooter?
Barrel first, trigger second and sights third. Yes a free float helps in some situations.
With the assumption that this rifle is not going into battle, and that your purposes like 99% of American sportsman is a recreational rifle; choose the SSA-E for maximum benefit of an upgraded trigger.
Sort of. Im not sure of how the businesses work but ALG defense is a parallel company to Geissele, (run by Bill Geissele's wife) that so far markets 2 triggers the QMS and ACT. Both start off as quality stock single stage triggers. The QMS (quality mil spec) is a cleaned up stock trigger that breaks at the bottom end of the range given for a GI trigger, about 5.5lbs, runs about $45. The ACT (advanced combat trigger) adds a hardlube plating of some sort, $65 but otherwise the same as the QMS.
How does it compare to an SSA? The SSA works great with my acog equipped carbine but had my stock single stage trigger felt like the QMS I wouldn't have bothered seeking an upgrade. The SSA is a good trigger but unless Im focusing on taking a shot requiring a certain degree of precision I end up just pulling thru both stages. In this capacity I feel the $45 trigger does just as good of a job and doesn't bother me on more carefully taken shots.
http://www.algdefense.com/
Last time I checked ALG didn't have an online ordering system, I got mine from bravocompany.
Fantastic, I'm definitely going to check these out! Thanks.
The trigger that came stock on my DD feels considerably heavier than 5.5lbs. Does this seem likely?
One caveat about the Geissele triggers; they'll make any other standard triggers feel like crap, and you'll be itching to replace those as well.
Moon
Yep... All it took was a G2S for me and now I can't build a rifle for myself without a Geissele of some kind. OP - You've been warned.
I can vary POI by 5 MOA with sling or barricade pressure.
Lots of gnashing of teeth at the 500 yard line by folks using a sling-stabilized position with ACOGs with non-FF handguards due to alterations in sling tension. Problem is less pronounced with iron sights if the front sight is mounted to the barrel.
Approximately 200,000 data points of comparison to reach the correlation.
Wow thanks for that info. I had no idea a FF handguard could make that much of a difference. I would have said trigger hands down if I hadn't read your post. Luckily, most of my ARs are freefloated, and the ones that aren't are all equipped with single point slings and are irons-only short range weapons.
Fantastic, I'm definitely going to check these out! Thanks.
The trigger that came stock on my DD feels considerably heavier than 5.5lbs. Does this seem likely?
Sure does. I built a lower using a DD lower parts kit. The markings on the parts were the same "S" marks seen on some colts and are also the ones on my ALG. The stock triggers are solid but they aren't refined and the pull weight can vary considerably from unit to unit, something like 5.5-8.5lbs IIRC. The trigger in my DD kit was very heavy, I don't have a scale but compared to the ALG and my old 4.5lb NM trigger it easily started off around 7-8lbs. It smoothed out and lightened a bit but still is very stout and now resides in the spare parts box. Always room for quality spares.
The Geissele ALG-QMS trigger is what the standard AR (M16A1-like) trigger should feel like.
Consider it a stock trigger that's been inspected, polished, and hard-finished.
It's hard to beat one for pure speed and military abuse durability. It will meet or exceed the demands of most plain hobbyists.
Tom- Until you get out there and really run the gun, you will never know what is best for YOU. This thread is split right down the middle with at least three subject matter experts chiming in. My rifle has both an SSA trigger and a FF rail. It also has other add-ons that will bring up just as big of debates. I feel that my B5 Sopmod was more important that either the trigger or the FF..it was that big of a game changer for me. Then I added a Vltor A5 sytem and that was another improvement. Did I mention I'm on my third sling. Bottom line, it's a whole package that requires thousands of rounds down the pipe to develop a personal choice on what YOU want to run. Funny thing is, if you are serious about being a shooter and put your time into it, you will be able to shoot pretty much any setup and trigger well.
If money is the issue when it comes to upgrades, the best solution is to use the money and buy ammo. There isn't a SINGLE accessory you can add to the rifle you already own that will have as big of a benefit as shooting it more.
Tom- Until you get out there and really run the gun, you will never know what is best for YOU. This thread is split right down the middle with at least three subject matter experts chiming in. My rifle has both an SSA trigger and a FF rail. It also has other add-ons that will bring up just as big of debates. I feel that my B5 Sopmod was more important that either the trigger or the FF..it was that big of a game changer for me. Then I added a Vltor A5 sytem and that was another improvement. Did I mention I'm on my third sling. Bottom line, it's a whole package that requires thousands of rounds down the pipe to develop a personal choice on what YOU want to run. Funny thing is, if you are serious about being a shooter and put your time into it, you will be able to shoot pretty much any setup and trigger well.
If money is the issue when it comes to upgrades, the best solution is to use the money and buy ammo. There isn't a SINGLE accessory you can add to the rifle you already own that will have as big of a benefit as shooting it more.
That's fair enough advice, and true enough. However, I have to disagree with the notion (which is extremely popular around here) that it requires thousands of rounds through any given weapon (or platform) to realize what hardware upgrades would increase your ability to make hits. It will increase the skill of any shooter, no argument there. In a perfect world I would be able to shoot 1000 rounds a week, unfortunately with the cost of ammunition (and everything else)that's not just unlikely, it's an impossibility. If it takes a particular person 1000s of rounds to figure out that a lighter, crisper trigger pull will increase the odds of hitting the target, then I suppose that's alright for them. I would imagine it's a lot of fun getting to that point through training. And there is no argument from me that trigger time is the best (and only real) way to increase skill. I do feel that there is a benefit to maximizing the usability of the hardware you have, even if you haven't already taken three carbine courses. And no, I absolutely can not afford to purchase all the different options an try them out. The experience of the members of this board is incredibly useful in getting an idea of what might work for me. I already shoot as much as i am able to. It will likely never be as much*as I would like, but the pursuit of skill in shooting is something that I would hope wouldn't have to be stressed on a forum that is dedicated to firearms users. I hope everyone here is in the (continual) process of improvement as a shooter, so it seems odd to me that it's mentioned so much.
Littlelebowski
05-12-13, 14:25
Fantastic, I'm definitely going to check these out! Thanks.
The trigger that came stock on my DD feels considerably heavier than 5.5lbs. Does this seem likely?
I like my ALG ACT quite a bit. For slight bit more money over a stock unit, it's a pretty good upgrade.
I like my ALG ACT quite a bit. For slight bit more money over a stock unit, it's a pretty good upgrade.
Excellent! Thanks for the feedback! It's looking like a pretty attractive option, especially considering the price differential!
That's fair enough advice, and true enough. However, I have to disagree with the notion (which is extremely popular around here) that it requires thousands of rounds through any given weapon (or platform) to realize what hardware upgrades would increase your ability to make hits. It will increase the skill of any shooter, no argument there. In a perfect world I would be able to shoot 1000 rounds a week, unfortunately with the cost of ammunition (and everything else)that's not just unlikely, it's an impossibility. If it takes a particular person 1000s of rounds to figure out that a lighter, crisper trigger pull will increase the odds of hitting the target, then I suppose that's alright for them. I would imagine it's a lot of fun getting to that point through training. And there is no argument from me that trigger time is the best (and only real) way to increase skill. I do feel that there is a benefit to maximizing the usability of the hardware you have, even if you haven't already taken three carbine courses. And no, I absolutely can not afford to purchase all the different options an try them out. The experience of the members of this board is incredibly useful in getting an idea of what might work for me. I already shoot as much as i am able to. It will likely never be as much*as I would like, but the pursuit of skill in shooting is something that I would hope wouldn't have to be stressed on a forum that is dedicated to firearms users. I hope everyone here is in the (continual) process of improvement as a shooter, so it seems odd to me that it's mentioned so much.
Some people won't say to go out and shoot thousands of rounds, and take multiple courses, before doing anything to the gun.
Some people will say that, for a defensive or duty oriented carbine, additions such as a sling and a light may as well be done right out of the gate. As examples.
But then you have guys who buy their first rifle and before they've even put 100 rounds downrange they have a full size VFG behind an AFG on a free float rail with panels and a tape switch mounted light, BUIS, scope, offset red dot, muzzle break, and a laser for good measure. That may be an exaggeration. Or not.
Yup. It's great stuff.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=107145
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03/21/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/
I grabbed 200 rounds of it recently. I would have bought more but that was the limit. It's hard to find, and expensive when you do.
Here is a representative group I shot this weekend using my Colt 6920 with free floating handguard and Geissele SSA (optic a Trijicon Accupoint with triangle reticle set to 4x). Shot prone with the magazine as a monopod, with a called flyer. My other groups were generally a little bit more open than that (not much) but without a shooter-induced flyer.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/Firearms/20130510_134523_zps4debc98e.jpg
Scope loose or something?
:D
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