View Full Version : american made ak
how come there are no american manufactures of aks?
i would think that somewhere along the line, even if the price was crazy, someone would want to buy a wholey american made ak.
922 doesn't apply if it is made in america right?
are there patents that the united states would respect? or is it just purely economically unviable?
Averageman
05-07-13, 18:40
I would imagine you might have many issues.
1st being that your not going to bring it in anywhere near the price point of an imported AK.
If you were going to build AK's you might want to start with tweeking a bit of the bad stuff and then some of the good stuff to make it better and before long it isn't an AK anymore.
At what point are you going to equal the quality of the AK and then at what point are you going to do it better and then when would it finally give you a return on your investment?
The myriad of logistical and legal issues aside, there are somethings just better left alone...
It is what it is, either like it or leave it.
The current spike in prices and the uncertainties of import availability due to current and potential future roadblocks make the possibility of a high-quality US made AK more likely now than ever. I'm not trying to discount previous efforts, but they were not well accepted.
Trailrunner
05-07-13, 19:43
Kansas and Montana might be places where "made in america" state only - built and owned - could happen soon.
correct me if im wrong but arsenal inc makes full US made AK's. I'm not referring to the bulgarian SLR or Russian SGL series. These are the milled receiver models like the SA variants such as the M-7 classic http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SA_M-7_CLASSIC.html I agree with you though, I would like to see more AK's manufactures especially if we could get more cool variants like AKSU's or even other Russian style rifles like SVD's.
correct me if im wrong but arsenal inc makes full US made AK's. I'm not referring to the bulgarian SLR or Russian SGL series. These are the milled receiver models like the SA variants such as the M-7 classic http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SA_M-7_CLASSIC.html I agree with you though, I would like to see more AK's manufactures especially if we could get more cool variants like AKSU's or even other Russian style rifles like SVD's.
Those rifles still use Bulgarian carriers, bolts, fsb, rsb, and I believe muzzle device. But there are a lot of parts being made in the US now, including quality gas blocks. I just wish Daniel Defense would start making hammer forged barrels. US made carriers and bolts would be nice too, but quality affordable barrels are a major stumbling block. I think we'll see an all American AK within the next five years as long as no major legislation derails the industry.
Uhhh... I have an American made am? Even says made in USA on the side of the receiver
Yes...IO and Century have made aks in the US. As stated previously, neither of these has been well received. If its not one of those two, then it's likely just the receiver and 922r parts.
This is as close as I've gotten to an American AK so far - :p
http://imageshack.us/a/img21/7848/photoapr29145255.jpg
Keep in mind that most of the equipment used to make AK's was paid for long ago by the communists, so they have very little capital equipment overhead. If you were have the money to invest in the equipment necessary, you could instead spend a similar amount of money to manufacture a newer design rifle that would sell for more.
LibertyNeverDies
05-08-13, 06:27
If I were to buy an AK I think I would prefer a foreign build or at least genuine foreign parts for collect-ability/cool-factor. One of the coolest things about the AK is the number of variants and countries in which it was produced. The AK is not an american platform. Now I like my AR15 parts made in American. It's an American Gun.
Keep in mind that most of the equipment used to make AK's was paid for long ago by the communists, so they have very little capital equipment overhead. If you were have the money to invest in the equipment necessary, you could instead spend a similar amount of money to manufacture a newer design rifle that would sell for more.
Basically you need to be able to make barrel (hammer forge is a plus), casting line, some 2 and 3 axis CNC machines, stamping press, coating/hardening facility, some specialized assembly equipment, set of feeler gauges, good dimensional testing station. Plus good TDP. That is how they make Beryls here in Poland. Some things like casting or extruding alu profiles (for railed handguard) can be easily outsourced.
What is key component here is good TDP, good QA process at every step, having proper gages for everything and specialized assembly line (no, you do not use hammer to install gas block and front sight on quality AK).
There are several locations and people who have the knowledge and ability to make them, but people always complain about the prices, so what is the incentive?
At least a half dozen respected manufacturers already make receivers and other components in the US, with several others who are less well regarded making more.
It's simply a question of economics.
It's simply a question of economics.
This is the truth of it. I think a lot of the American manufacturers know how much profit margin is being made on the foreign parts. K-var overcharges for their stuff, we all know it. If an American company started putting out rifles, they're probably not going to be cheap. K-var could simply reduce prices and edge them out of the game while still making a healthy profit. There's not a lot of incentive there, and that's a shame.
It's simply a question of economics.
I was doing research on that. US market for AK style rifles is spoiled by prices of surplus kits, that were sold per kilogram by ex-Warsaw Pact countries and companies that were selling under cost just to have any cashflow. Serious manufacturer, with quality product never will fill this kind of price expectation. Realistically good AK should cost about same as good AR.
KalashniKEV
05-09-13, 07:41
SIG 556 is 85% AK.
...and 5% AR, 10% SIG garbage, and 0% Quality Control.
I'd rather see the inexpensive imported rifles come in again than see a US manufacturer tool up, sell a bunch of expensive rifles, find out where they screwed up, and turn out a second generation of rifles that are "new and improved! Made to true(er) AKM Specs!"
Does anyone remember the days of the $289 SAR-1?
Awesome1228
05-09-13, 15:42
I'd rather see the inexpensive imported rifles come in again than see a US manufacturer tool up, sell a bunch of expensive rifles, find out where they screwed up, and turn out a second generation of rifles that are "new and improved! Made to true(er) AKM Specs!"
Does anyone remember the days of the $289 SAR-1?
My thoughts as well. I lucked out just last week and found a Polish underfolder for $300. Dude needed money, and I worked him pretty hard. He was originally asking 800 bucks.
My thoughts as well. I lucked out just last week and found a Polish underfolder for $300. Dude needed money, and I worked him pretty hard. He was originally asking 800 bucks.
For that price, I'd be worried that it's stolen.
Awesome1228
05-09-13, 16:13
For that price, I'd be worried that it's stolen.
Normally I would be too, but I had to work the guy really hard. And I insisted on a bill of sale and copy of his driver's license. He just needed money more than the AK.
...and 5% AR, 10% SIG garbage, and 0% Quality Control.
I'd rather see the inexpensive imported rifles come in again than see a US manufacturer tool up, sell a bunch of expensive rifles, find out where they screwed up, and turn out a second generation of rifles that are "new and improved! Made to true(er) AKM Specs!"
Does anyone remember the days of the $289 SAR-1?
How about the days of the $189 SAR-1 and $250 Bulgy SLR-95? I passed these up routinely at S Florida gun shows back in 1997 and 1998.
I agree on all points. Sig 556 is a perfect example of how to railroad a great firearm design.
Averageman
05-09-13, 17:31
I remember reading somewhere that due to EPA standards, chrome lining barrels with the same quality of the AK Chrome lining is extreamly difficult here.
There is so much red tape in front of anyone in any business here, let alone a business building firearms I can't imagine why anyone would make a profit building something like an AK here.
Someone here, no matter what the quality of the outcome of an American made AK build would always compare it to a Century and feel they are being ripped off at the price point required.
The biggest drawback would be generally the uninformed consumer would expect you to sell it for Century prices;....irregardless of the blood sweat and tears you put in to quality.
Moose-Knuckle
05-09-13, 18:14
...and 5% AR, 10% SIG garbage, and 0% Quality Control.
I'd rather see the inexpensive imported rifles come in again than see a US manufacturer tool up, sell a bunch of expensive rifles, find out where they screwed up, and turn out a second generation of rifles that are "new and improved! Made to true(er) AKM Specs!"
Yeap bought a 556 in '07 soon after they were released for $1100, other places had them as high as $1700 at the time. I sold that wanna-be-poser-POS and bought a SLR-106CR for $999. :cool:
Does anyone remember the days of the $289 SAR-1?
And the SAR-2s and SAR-3s. I bought my SAR-1 in '01 for $350 (post 9/11 pricing). Its now my EDC truck gun.
Yeap bought a 556 in '07 soon after they were released for $1100, other places had them as high as $1700 at the time. I sold that wanna-be-poser-POS and bought a SLR-106CR for $999. :cool:
Funny, the SLR-106CR and SLR-106UR that I bought were both unreliable. Both went back to Arsenal, NV several times, but they couldn't make them run reliably. They eventually refunded me most of my money. I later bought a Sig556 Classic (for $1100 BTW) and have not had the first problem out of it. I like it so much that I have a Sig556 Classic SBR on order now.
Moose-Knuckle
05-09-13, 18:33
Funny, the SLR-106CR and SLR-106UR that I bought were both unreliable. Both went back to Arsenal, NV several times, but they couldn't make them run reliably. They eventually refunded me most of my money. I later bought a Sig556 Classic (for $1100 BTW) and have not had the first problem out of it. I like it so much that I have a Sig556 Classic SBR on order now.
I bought the SLR-106CR with the intentions to SBR it as well as a 556P I picked up in '08. I have since decided not to SBR either gun and have kept them both in NIB condition and plan on selling them one day when I get around to it. After hearing all the horror stories of the 106 gas port issues and LAVs comments on 5.56 AKs I decided it wasn't worth the effort to go the NFA route.
I remember reading somewhere that due to EPA standards, chrome lining barrels with the same quality of the AK Chrome lining is extreamly difficult here.
I believe you're thinking of the Glock Tenifer process, which the EPA didn't allow in the exact same way the Austrians did it because of the amount of cyanide (or something) by-products that result from the process. There has been progress in how they perform it, and now many are doing similar nitriding but within EPA guidelines. Lots of companies in the US chrome line their barrels, and some do it extremely well. That's not the issue I don't think.
I bought the SLR-106CR with the intentions to SBR
Assuming the 106CR would work reliably (it's an AK's afterall), I sent in the Form 1's. This was a few years ago, so it only took a couple of months to get the approved Form 1 back. When Arsenal kept the rifles and refunded most of my money, I requested the ATF to refund the $200 since I had not actually converted it in to an SBR. Some people told me that I was out of luck. Fortunately, they did refund my $200.
twistedcomrade
05-09-13, 19:57
Assuming the 106CR would work reliably (it's an AK's afterall), I sent in the Form 1's. This was a few years ago, so it only took a couple of months to get the approved Form 1 back. When Arsenal kept the rifles and refunded most of my money, I requested the ATF to refund the $200 since I had not actually converted it in to an SBR. Some people told me that I was out of luck. Fortunately, they did refund my $200.
Man I would have never guessed that. Good on ya.
MountainRaven
05-09-13, 20:07
If you're going to build a purely American AK, you'd probably best do something more akin to a Galil or Valmet.
Moose-Knuckle
05-09-13, 21:53
Assuming the 106CR would work reliably (it's an AK's afterall), I sent in the Form 1's. This was a few years ago, so it only took a couple of months to get the approved Form 1 back. When Arsenal kept the rifles and refunded most of my money, I requested the ATF to refund the $200 since I had not actually converted it in to an SBR. Some people told me that I was out of luck. Fortunately, they did refund my $200.
Good to know and I too am shocked they returned your money.
KalashniKEV
05-10-13, 08:44
My thoughts as well. I lucked out just last week and found a Polish underfolder for $300.
That's insane.
How about the days of the $189 SAR-1 and $250 Bulgy SLR-95?
I don't remember those... you must have got the first few off the boat.
I agree on all points. Sig 556 is a perfect example of how to railroad a great firearm design.
ACR/Masada is the "perfect" example.
I remember reading somewhere that due to EPA standards, chrome lining barrels with the same quality of the AK Chrome lining is extreamly difficult here.
Sounds like you're thinking of the gray Glocks.
It wouldn't surprise me though if someone was turning out crap-spec barrels and using the average gun consumers hate of the government and regulation to make excuses for their shoddy work.
If you're going to build a purely American AK, you'd probably best do something more akin to a Galil or Valmet.
...yeah and they could improve the topcover to mount optics, and improve the safety, and after they make all their improvements someone will say, "Your topcover sucks... all we want is the closest thing to an AKM you can make."
Kind of like what happened to another main manufacturer...
If you want to make an American Galil, do an American Galil- but don't change a thing about it, and realize that tooling up for Galil production is going to be a whole lot pricier whether you buy CNC Warrior receivers or attempt to make your own.
IZinterrogator
05-10-13, 10:00
Sounds like you're thinking of the gray Glocks.
I believe you're thinking of the Glock Tenifer process, which the EPA didn't allow in the exact same way the Austrians did it because of the amount of cyanide (or something) by-products that result from the process. There has been progress in how they perform it, and now many are doing similar nitriding but within EPA guidelines.No, the EPA gets its panties in a bunch over chrome-lining as well. Says it's a carcinogen or something.
Perhaps a nitrided barrel like the new S&W barrels is the answer?
[QUOTE=IZinterrogator;1639395]No, the EPA gets its panties in a bunch over chrome-lining as well. Says it's a carcinogen or something.
/QUOTE]
Got something to back this up? As previously mentioned, MANY companies in the US produce chrome-lined barrels.
IZinterrogator
05-11-13, 02:02
[QUOTE=IZinterrogator;1639395]No, the EPA gets its panties in a bunch over chrome-lining as well. Says it's a carcinogen or something.
/QUOTE]
Got something to back this up? As previously mentioned, MANY companies in the US produce chrome-lined barrels.http://www.newmoa.org/prevention/p2tech/TriChromeFinal.pdf
Many companies in the U.S. produce chrome-lined AR barrels because the government approves the production of chrome-lined AR barrels, much like they approve the production of my HMMWV engine which has a label that specifically states it is exempt from EPA requirements because of a national security waiver. However, the government could not give a shit about AK barrels, so no exemption for a new company that was tooling up to produce AK barrels.
[QUOTE=Peshawar;1639596]http://www.newmoa.org/prevention/p2tech/TriChromeFinal.pdf
Many companies in the U.S. produce chrome-lined AR barrels because the government approves the production of chrome-lined AR barrels, much like they approve the production of my HMMWV engine which has a label that specifically states it is exempt from EPA requirements because of a national security waiver. However, the government could not give a shit about AK barrels, so no exemption for a new company that was tooling up to produce AK barrels.
So the companies currently producing chrome line AK barrels in the US are doing so in violation of the law? That doesn't make sense.
For example -
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-accessories/ak-74-5-45x39-chrome-lined-barrel-detail.html?Itemid=0
http://armsofamerica.com/us762x39romanianmodelbarrel6999-1.aspx
IZinterrogator
05-11-13, 04:37
[QUOTE=IZinterrogator;1640152]
So the companies currently producing chrome line AK barrels in the US are doing so in violation of the law? That doesn't make sense.
No, but this administration is probably not going to license anyone new to do it since they love their bunnies and kittens so much.
I don't know why you're jumping all over this. Averageman made a statement:
I remember reading somewhere that due to EPA standards, chrome lining barrels with the same quality of the AK Chrome lining is extreamly difficult here.
There is so much red tape in front of anyone in any business here, let alone a business building firearms I can't imagine why anyone would make a profit building something like an AK here.Two people said he was wrong, I agreed with him and then corroborated it with evidence you requested. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but chrome lining is an EPA hazard and carcinogen as defined by the government was all I was trying to prove. I've done my bit, later.
[QUOTE=Peshawar;1640156]
No, but this administration is probably not going to license anyone new to do it since they love their bunnies and kittens so much.
I don't know why you're jumping all over this. Averageman made a statement:
Two people said he was wrong, I agreed with him and then corroborated it with evidence you requested. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, but chrome lining is an EPA hazard and carcinogen as defined by the government was all I was trying to prove. I've done my bit, later.
Nobody's jumping. I'm just trying to make sure that the thread reflects factual information.
The green mountain chrome lined 4150 barrels are pretty decent. I get pretty good accuracy out of 5.45 and 7.62 guns with them, and the chrome looks good. Only issue is they are crazy hard. A b!t@h to thread or machine.
I remember a YouTube video from Tango Down from SHOT a couple years ago, they were demo'ing an American made AK that would have a barrel release similar to the M249. I'd imagine that if they made it work or a barrel release method like the LMT MRP system most of the AR > AK argument based on modularity/maintenance goes away.
It would sell at prices under $2k.
MountainRaven
05-11-13, 11:00
...yeah and they could improve the topcover to mount optics, and improve the safety, and after they make all their improvements someone will say, "Your topcover sucks... all we want is the closest thing to an AKM you can make."
Kind of like what happened to another main manufacturer...
If you want to make an American Galil, do an American Galil- but don't change a thing about it, and realize that tooling up for Galil production is going to be a whole lot pricier whether you buy CNC Warrior receivers or attempt to make your own.
Then you Valmet M/71-ize your Amerigalil.
I remember a YouTube video from Tango Down from SHOT a couple years ago, they were demo'ing an American made AK that would have a barrel release similar to the M249. I'd imagine that if they made it work or a barrel release method like the LMT MRP system most of the AR > AK argument based on modularity/maintenance goes away.
It would sell at prices under $2k.
I saw that video too, and was impressed. Travis Haley demo'd the rifle in the one I saw IIRC.
Your post brings up one of the biggest stumbling blocks for American AK barrels and the AK in general. So did Duane's. Since the barrel pin needs to be drilled in a slightly different spot to account for the variations between manufacturers and lots of other variable tolerances, companies can't really nitride barrels or make them super hard because it becomes too difficult to do the last operations to finish the gun. Pin channels need to be drilled, handguard slot cut, etc. Uber hard barrels will make that part much more difficult, especially for hobbyist builders like me. Threaded barrels like the Galil would help some, but there are still issues of over/under timing that can occur if the receivers aren't matching the barrels and bolts to achieve proper headspace.
In other words, the lack of standardization and ability to be modular because of loose tolerances and no Rosetta Stone blueprint to follow (there's no real TDP as far as I know, at least not one that American manufacturers would be able to easily acquire), then it makes it more difficult for companies to make stuff, just like Jwperry said. Someone else pointed it out already, if you have to redesign the system to take advantage of all the factors involved, you might as well design a new gun. A modernized AK becomes less and less of an AK pretty fast!
As a friend of mine said once, the biggest difference between AK manufacturers and AR companies is that "We use math." :p
Averageman
05-11-13, 18:30
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating
From a health standpoint, hexavalent chromium is the most toxic form of chromium. In the U.S. it is heavily regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA); the EPA lists it as a hazardous air pollutant because it is a human carcinogen, a "priority pollutant" under the Clean Water Act, and a "hazardous constituent" under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. Due to the low cathodic efficiency and high solution viscosity a mist of water and hexavalent chromium is released from the bath, which is toxic. To control these emissions wet scrubbers are used. The discharge from the wet scrubbers is then treated to precipitate the chromium from the solution, because it cannot be discarded in the waste water.[2]
Additional toxic waste that is created from hexavalent chromium baths include lead chromates which form in the bath because lead anodes are used. Barium is also used to control the sulfate concentration, which leads to the formation of barium sulfate, a hazardous waste.[2]
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/chrome/chromepg.html
The Russians don't deal with any of this from our EPA. They have used ammunition that was very abusive to bores for years and decided they would rather have good guns and worry about the resulting pollution later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_plating
From a health standpoint, hexavalent chromium is the most toxic form of chromium. In the U.S. it is heavily regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA); the EPA lists it as a hazardous air pollutant because it is a human carcinogen, a "priority pollutant" under the Clean Water Act, and a "hazardous constituent" under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. Due to the low cathodic efficiency and high solution viscosity a mist of water and hexavalent chromium is released from the bath, which is toxic. To control these emissions wet scrubbers are used. The discharge from the wet scrubbers is then treated to precipitate the chromium from the solution, because it cannot be discarded in the waste water.[2]
Additional toxic waste that is created from hexavalent chromium baths include lead chromates which form in the bath because lead anodes are used. Barium is also used to control the sulfate concentration, which leads to the formation of barium sulfate, a hazardous waste.[2]
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/chrome/chromepg.html
The Russians don't deal with any of this from our EPA. They have used ammunition that was very abusive to bores for years and decided they would rather have good guns and worry about the resulting pollution later.
Thanks for the links and info. The EPA regulates a lot of things, and doesn't forbid US companies from chrome lining barrels. Yes, it involves dangerous chemicals and there are rules. Got it. The suggestion that American manufacturers can't chrome line anything but AR barrels because of "national security" is just false. Duly noted. Now let's talk about AK's, cool?
I would much rather see an AR-18/180 comeback or American Daewoo than an American made AK.
Magic_Salad0892
05-12-13, 05:08
I would much rather see an AR-18/180 comeback or American Daewoo than an American made AK.
Semi-agreed. One day I need to balls up and buy an AK though.
M67A2 Zippo Tank
05-16-13, 14:33
Normally I would be too, but I had to work the guy really hard. And I insisted on a bill of sale and copy of his driver's license. He just needed money more than the AK.
Wise conduct path. I would also run the serial numbers for a stolen goods check, too. May your new AK be all you want it t5o be.
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