View Full Version : 338 Win Mag for long range?
This is just a post about theory as I have no intention of building this.
Why don't you hear more about the 338 WM as a long range shooter. I've read some people getting 2700 FPS out of the 250 grn bullets. With a good design it seems like it would be a pretty decent long range round.
Generally a belted magnum has shorter usable case life. You can use an Innovative Technologies collet die and get longer life / more firings from a case over standard dies.
http://www.larrywillis.com/diebig.jpg
In the "Olden days" (late 50s-through mid-80s) the 30-338 / 308 Norma Magnum was considered a formidable long range cartridge at Camp Perry. The 300 Winchester Magnum had the advantage of using factory brass and not requiring fire-forming (cutting the case's usable life by a shot).
The 6.5 x 284 "Fag Mag" replaced the 300 Win Mag at Perry -- it would shoot inside the 300 and do everything the bigger cartridge can using less powder and with lower recoil (thus the silly nickname).
The straight .338 Winchester Magnum suffers from knocking the snot out of a shooter's shoulder since NRA long range prone does not allow a muzzle brake.
338 Win Mag on left, 338 Lapua on right:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c347/TRG42/50%20Cal/338LM338Win.jpg
We load for and shoot a .338 WIN MAG. It's more of a Bush gun... with factory iron sights... It's Pappabears.
That specific gun isn't much for a long range shooter. I'd love to do a 6.5 284 if I had the time and money... but for now, the 300 WM is able to shoot farther than any spot we can find to shoot it. 1200 yards at this time.
can't say i've ever shot one. but the 30* shoulder seems like a big plus
Yup, not a big fan of belted mags.
Yup, not a big fan of belted mags.
Belted mags haven't bothered me too much. If you set up the sizing die so you're head spaced off the shoulder, there's not too much difference.
Every so often you'll need to run that Collet near the belt. But that die has a guage built in. So you only have to run the brass that needs it.
If you set up the sizing die so you're head spaced off the shoulder, there's not too much difference. ... other than the cartridge being designed to headspace off the belt. :no:
... other than the cartridge being designed to headspace off the belt. :no:
Yeah yeah.... Unnecessarily as I've come to understand. The rounds were rooted of the belted system un-necessarily.
What can you tell me about donuts? I'm having donut issues with Pappabears 300 WM RWS brass. Looks like crispy creme in his ammo boxes these days.
I can tell you that you should stop using bushing dies. :nono: :happy:
If you are talking about a donut down by the case head... then you are further understanding why I don't like belted magnums.
Because to resize them properly you need a collet sizing die.
http://www.larrywillis.com/300winmag.html
I can tell you that you should stop using bushing dies. :nono: :happy:
No... the neck donuts.
I don't use bushing dies. I hate bushing dies. Learned that the hard way.
Body die, and Lee Collet neck die.... with an occasional Larry Willis Belt collet true up.
You're getting donuts from a lee collet die? This is a new one on me. I've never heard of anyone getting donuts from that. What's the location of the donut?
We have to push out the donut to get the stem of the collet die to go into the neck.
It's hit and miss... some cases nothing... and others... krispe Kreme!
reference photo to illustrate.. not actually 270 win.
http://imageshack.us/a/img372/9140/270winsmallmg4.jpg
Ok, I just wanted to make sure you were seeing it where everyone else would see it.
... again though, I can't believe you are getting it with a lee collet die. That's that system's whole claim to fame.
Is the brass being necked down to tight and then the neck is getting pushed down during bullet seating?
what do you have against bushing dies? bushing dies rock.
what do you have against bushing dies? bushing dies rock.
If you like runout and ass aches with different flavors of brass. Try a lee collet and you'll toss those bushings in the drawer.
THe donut is only on a handful of the brass. I'll dig deeper into this.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-09-13, 19:04
I did not want to say anything but all this belted magnum bashing boils down to nothing more than internet ho ha! There is nothing wrong with belted mags, I own 2 and have never had any of these issues. I don't use collet dies, I'm not burning up my barrels and case life is more than reasonable.
On the 338 win mag, you don't see it because its impractical. It will not drive the big 300g, 338 bullets fast enough to be useful at long range. It gives up to much, its really better suited for big bears in Alaska, where you will find it quite popular almost as popular as the 300 win mag.
If you necking down brass the donut can be a factor but it can also be avoided by running your press in stages or but using a bushing in between the 2 sizes and working it in stages.
I did not want to say anything but all this belted magnum bashing boils down to nothing more than internet ho ha! There is nothing wrong with belted mags, I own 2 and have never had any of these issues. I don't use collet dies, I'm not burning up my barrels and case life is more than reasonable. Do you think those that disagree with you on this just don't know what they are talking about?
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-09-13, 21:48
I don't know what it is, different knowledge base i guess.
I don't know what it is, different knowledge base i guess. So if they disagree, they just don't have any experience? As to say, if they don't agree... they don't know what you know?
Alpha Sierra
05-10-13, 06:20
So if they disagree, they just don't have any experience? As to say, if they don't agree... they don't know what you know?
At some point, your delivery makes your knowledge irrelevant because people stop giving a shit about anything you have to say.
On the 338 win mag, you don't see it because its impractical. It will not drive the big 300g, 338 bullets fast enough to be useful at long range. It gives up to much, its really better suited for big bears in Alaska, where you will find it quite popular almost as popular as the 300 win mag.
That's exactly what Pappabears gun is ideal for. It's relatively short and light. I think we may have tried to reach out 500 yards with it. It's a bush gun where big things might try to hurt you.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-10-13, 08:27
So if they disagree, they just don't have any experience? As to say, if they don't agree... they don't know what you know?
Greg I feel like your trying to bait me into something. I don't want to call anyone out on their experience. I just disagree and see these type of comments on belted mags all the time, in my experience its just not true. Given that the 7mm rem mag. 300 win mag, 375 h&H mag are so popular, it would only seam logical that theses issue would be more evident than they are. When I first started reloading, I was taken in by myths at times and I am not saying you were, because I really don't know where your going with your comments, they make me think of the logic and ethics course I took last semester and my head hurts again.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-10-13, 08:34
That's exactly what Pappabears gun is ideal for. It's relatively short and light. I think we may have tried to reach out 500 yards with it. It's a bush gun where big things might try to hurt you.
I bet it packs a big punch! I have a 450 marlin for that same role, light and fast, hold lots of ammo in case my shooting is no buano.
I bet it packs a big punch! I have a 450 marlin for that same role, light and fast, hold lots of ammo in case my shooting is no buano.
It's not fun to shoot. :(
Probably just needs a good muzzle brake.
A 338 Win Mag is a respectable rifle and can push 210-250 grain bullets at 2750-ish velocities -- enough to get you to at least 1600-1700 yards with no sweat.
Probably just needs a good muzzle brake.
A brake would do wonders, but look odd on this gun... with the front sight and all.
Interesting behavior from those that proclaim to abhor mine.
Given that the 7mm rem mag. 300 win mag, 375 h&H mag are so popular, it would only seam logical that theses issue would be more evident than they are. How many of those people are high-volume shooters, running those cartridges in competition? Most are hunters, and the brass is left where it falls after ejection. Those that do reload them, are certainly not high volume shooters. Those that are high volume shooters, have discovered the same limitations I have.
Greg I feel like your trying to bait me into something. I don't want to call anyone out on their experience. I'm baiting you into nothing. I don't play games. I was simply trying to find out what you thought of those that disagree with you. Is that a sinister motive? You say its all bullshit and belted mags are just fine. I say otherwise for many reasons.
Seems to me that you are trying to say that anyone that disagrees with your assessment of belted mags is wrong, or does not have the experience to know better.
I do have the experience. I know with certainty that there are steps required with belted mags that are not present with non-belted mags. There are many articles written by professionals with a better reputation than myself which proclaim the same things I proclaim.
So if you wish to champion belted mags as being on the same level as the rest of the modern cartridges which were designed specifically to replace them, that is perfectly fine.
If you want to say those that disagree with you lack knowledge or experience, ergo simply don't know what they are talking about... I will take great issue.
Now is it "baiting" to do what you've all asked I do, and chastised me for NOT doing a hundred times in the past? Seems when a tiger changes his stripes, he's still treated as a tiger. Maybe it's not worth the effort after all.
I don't know what constitutes High Volume.... but we'll burn 30-50 rounds per week. That's low to some, and off the charts to a hunter who shoots half a box per year. :confused:
There's brass in the boxes that has 7 loadings on it... and yeah.. every so often I have to give it a collet squeeze... Not a big deal.
I wouldn't hesitate to do another 300 WM since I already have the experience. The downsides are just not enough to make me look for a difference cartridge. I'm sure there's better out there, but we're tooled and componented up for 300.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-10-13, 12:52
How many of those people are high-volume shooters, running those cartridges in competition? Most are hunters, and the brass is left where it falls after ejection. Those that do reload them, are certainly not high volume shooters. Those that are high volume shooters, have discovered the same limitations I have.
I'm baiting you into nothing. I don't play games. I was simply trying to find out what you thought of those that disagree with you. Is that a sinister motive? You say its all bullshit and belted mags are just fine. I say otherwise for many reasons.
Seems to me that you are trying to say that anyone that disagrees with your assessment of belted mags is wrong, or does not have the experience to know better.
I do have the experience. I know with certainty that there are steps required with belted mags that are not present with non-belted mags. There are many articles written by professionals with a better reputation than myself which proclaim the same things I proclaim.
So if you wish to champion belted mags as being on the same level as the rest of the modern cartridges which were designed specifically to replace them, that is perfectly fine.
If you want to say those that disagree with you lack knowledge or experience, ergo simply don't know what they are talking about... I will take great issue.
Now is it "baiting" to do what you've all asked I do, and chastised me for NOT doing a hundred times in the past? Seems when a tiger changes his stripes, he's still treated as a tiger. Maybe it's not worth the effort after all.
And I fell for the trap!
My 338 is a Safari grade model 70 that I bought thinking, if it doesnt shoot MOA , I will re barrel it to 300 WM. I bought it off a Guide ( kind of a guide- more of an idiot that ****ed my elk hunt) that got it off a guy ......it didnt have 20 rounds through it. I bought it for $450. No I stoled it for $450.
I got the wood stock bedded real nice, got the trigger tuned and took her out for a drive. I bought dies thinking, it's cheaper to buy dies than 3 boxes of ammo to test haha. Markm loaded up a few samples and it shot half inch. Totally bad ass with 225 grain Nosler Accubonds.
The 338 win mag is a necked up 300WM. I would always buy a 300 over a 338 , but my situation was different. You can always shoot 200 grain bullets to get the same performance.
I struggled on the muzzle brake thing. I love them and believe in them. But this gun has iron sights, of which The Riflesmith offered to take off, but I wanted to keep authentic Safari concept. Not an ideal Safari gun, but could be used on much big game on a Safari. It does kick like a Georgia mule. I have a Bushnell 2.5-10 30mm tube on it with DOA 600 yard reticle. It would make a great bear gun or KY elk gun, East coast US big game gun. With this glass on it. Again, I didn't want a huge scope with Turrets on the Wood Stock gun.
I like it the way it's built. Very nice gun. Now you guys have me curious what velocity that bullet is traveling with my load. I think I'll shoot it next week and give a range report. Maybe even post a pic if I have a lot of energy. :D
Pappabear, you could always try the Lapua TRG-42 brake with the iron sight -- then you'd have a safari gun you could run for the full 4 rounds.
http://www.thecountryshed.com/TRG3333.jpg
It would be noisy as hell, but recovery would be quicker.
One of my guys got an insurance settlement check when his Harley was stolen. He bought a Holland and Holland double rifle to take to Africa on safari. I couldn't believe ANYONE spends that kind of money on a single gun, let alone a double rifle, until he told me, "Put it to your shoulder."
I did, and the light bulb came on. It wasn't even tailored for me, but it was dead on. I tried it about a dozen times, and when it came to shoulder the butt and point at a target it was right there, every time -- spooky, really, but the old school English gunsmiths figured it out a long time ago.
I'll bet those 225s you're pushing are moving out smartly.
Pappabear, you could always try the Lapua TRG-42 brake with the iron sight -- then you'd have a safari gun you could run for the full 4 rounds.
http://www.thecountryshed.com/TRG3333.jpg
It would be noisy as hell, but recovery would be quicker.
One of my guys got an insurance settlement check when his Harley was stolen. He bought a Holland and Holland double rifle to take to Africa on safari. I couldn't believe ANYONE spends that kind of money on a single gun, let alone a double rifle, until he told me, "Put it to your shoulder."
I did, and the light bulb came on. It wasn't even tailored for me, but it was dead on. I tried it about a dozen times, and when it came to shoulder the butt and point at a target it was right there, every time -- spooky, really, but the old school English gunsmiths figured it out a long time ago.
I'll bet those 225s you're pushing are moving out smartly.
I'd be delighted to take any TRG. I do have a rather high affinity to those guns, however, I've never shot one. I might buy one in 338 lapua Magnum if I ever get two dimes to rub together.
Did you squeeze the trigger on that H&H, I bet it said GOOD MORNING in a big way.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-11-13, 08:41
Here is Brians new 338 win data for the 2 bullets they offer, just for reference. I will have to ask "POP" over at LRH what the deal is with the 225g AB and the 338 win. I dought the BC is as high but they did just update the AB line with the LRAB, I know the BC went up a little.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Reloading_Data/338WinMag300gr.pdf
http://www.bergerbullets.com/Reloading_Data/338WinMag250gr.pdf
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