View Full Version : What won't your mid-lenth AR shoot?
I finally bought a mid-length rifle. DDM4. All I've had/have is carbine length. I can't tell a difference in anything so far except it won't cycle Tula/Herters, some PMC.(short stroking) I knew this going in but was curious, what else won't your AR cycle?
I know everyone's setup is a bit different, but just curious, I don't shoot
Tula much(more like pretty much never) but with ammo a bit tougher to find we are all compromising.
My mid length cycles everything I shoot in it. Make sure you apply a generous amount of lube to the rifle.
If breaking in the rifle and application of lube won't rectify the issue, you may want to look at buffer/spring combinations.
It's broken in and lubed. Shoots XM and my reloads fine. Just the lower power stuff won't cycle. It came with an H buffer, swapped it with a ST-T2 Spikes buffer and no better. Just wondering if there is known ammo I should avoid with this rifle, or any other changes I should try. I know it may be unrealistic, but I would like the rifle to run pretty much anything.
polymorpheous
05-12-13, 08:27
Is it a 16" or 14.5" mid length?
How many rounds of full pressure ammo has been shot through it?
Every BCM mid length upper I own shoots whatever I run through it fine with a H buffer.
16" At least 800 rounds has been through it. Cleaned every 200 rounds so far.
polymorpheous
05-12-13, 08:34
Barring a loose gas key, gas block, the gas port on a mid length gas system is supposed to be .0625".
I wouldn't be surprised if the Daniel Defense barrel had an undersized gas port.
Are they known for smaller gas ports? I don't have anything here to measure that small to check.
Thanks for the info.
polymorpheous
05-12-13, 08:48
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64673
I've personally seen this in 2 out of the 3 uppers I've used their barrels for.
Though they were all carbine length gas systems.
They shot the Russian stuff fine after several hundred rounds of M193 and M855.
I've never ran into this with BCM's barrels.
It's broken in and lubed. Shoots XM and my reloads fine. Just the lower power stuff won't cycle. It came with an H buffer, swapped it with a ST-T2 Spikes buffer and no better. Just wondering if there is known ammo I should avoid with this rifle, or any other changes I should try. I know it may be unrealistic, but I would like the rifle to run pretty much anything.
It ought to shoot any quality ammo - mine does. My mid-length Noveske (H buffer originally, now with an A5) shoots PMC all day long and always has. It's virtually the only range ammo I shoot. At least 8000 rounds of the stuff over the last few years. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that a properly designed and properly set-up rifle will shoot "pretty much anything".
I too would be suspicious of the gas port.
Dumb. I'll call DD on Monday. I was just curious. Like I said I don't shoot tula/pmc often but would like it to cycle when/if I do. It has cycled XM193 and PPU 100% from day 1.
Thank you for the info.
Littlelebowski
05-12-13, 09:07
Sabre upper/BCM lower, loves everything. Eats a lot of Wolf because I'm cheap.
I finally bought a mid-length rifle. DDM4. All I've had/have is carbine length. I can't tell a difference in anything so far except it won't cycle Tula/Herters, some PMC.(short stroking) I knew this going in but was curious, what else won't your AR cycle?
I know everyone's setup is a bit different, but just curious, I don't shoot
Tula much(more like pretty much never) but with ammo a bit tougher to find we are all compromising.
Are they known for smaller gas ports? I don't have anything here to measure that small to check.
Thanks for the info.
DD gas ports seem to run a little smaller than most others.
This is good for running the full pressure 5.56 it is intended to use.
The manual may even mention this.
No one should be surprised when Tula short strokes in a middy.
No one should be surprised when Tula short strokes in a middy.
This is what I thought and was told by more than 1 person. I assumed it was an ammo issue by that, but now I'm wondering about the gas port issue.
No need to beat this into the ground anymore, I'll call DD in the AM and see what they have to say. Thanks again for the responses.
How many rounds have you fired through it? When I bought my first BCM 16" middy upper, it would sometimes short-stroke with PMC Bronze (which is the weakest ammo I own) using a Springco white spring and LMT H buffer. After generous and frequent reapplication of lube and a breaking in period of only about 300 rounds, it just kinda worked itself out. Now it feeds and fires anything 100% trouble free.
I've heard of new midlengths needing a breakin period of 3-400 rounds using full powered ammo. I have not had a problem with my two midlengths even using tula during the break in phase. I shoot a lot of Tula as range ammo. Almost exclusively lately because I am hesitant to dip into my reserves of the good stuff until it becomes more readily available/reasonably priced.
I believe there was a thread regarding 14.5 midlengths being susceptible to malfs with weak ammo.
I'd rule out the other variables and put another couple hundred rounds thru the rifle.
Regarding gas port size on a midlength. Is the .0625 a standard set between manufacturers?
Regarding gas port size on a midlength. Is the .0625 a standard set between manufacturers?
MFGs can do what they want with gas port sizes.
.0625" is what Colt uses for the 14.5" CAR gas M4 with H buffer.
That is the "known good" starting point.
Others go bigger and smaller.
There is no published equivalent for mid length gas.
MFGs can do what they want with gas port sizes.
.0625" is what Colt uses for the 14.5" CAR gas M4 with H buffer.
That is the "known good" starting point.
Others go bigger and smaller.
There is no published equivalent for mid length gas.
That's what I thought, potential discrepancies.
polymorpheous
05-12-13, 14:47
I would consider BCM's 16" midlength a good standard.
The are smooth shooting and cycle most everything.
Their 14.5" midlengths can be finicky.
My barrel is a DD middy. It's backed by a BCM bolt and VLTOR A5 system. Runs everything I've put in it.
That includes alot of Tula and wolf.
My DD 14.5 mid gas has a .071 gas port
My DDMV3 & BCM both cycle PMC Bronze right out f the box. Both are 16 inch.
ALL of my rifles that are middies ( 2 DD 16"barrels one 14.5 BCM barrel) would not cycle or lock back on the last round with Tula/Herters or Wolf until I installed an A5 receiver extension. Mil spec gas ports won't cycle crap ammo.....
Well boys, I think I scared it. Had a good long talk when I cleaned it earlier, brought it to the range and shot. Started with 200 rounds of XM193, no issues. 150 PPU, no issues. 80 PMC bronze no issues. 100 Herters, no issues.
Maybe it just wasn't quite broken in yet. I never used cheaper ammo until around the 500 round mark. Not sure if it's just a fluke or what. I don't plan on shooting Herters and such much, but like I said, would like it to if I choose to.
However I am now curious about the gas port. Can someone recommend me the tool to buy to get the actual size? If it's not crazy money I'd like to check this out.
Decimal drill bits. A 1/16th bit is .0625. Get an indexed set of bits, find out which one fits the gas port, mic it and there you go.
ALL of my rifles that are middies ( 2 DD 16"barrels one 14.5 BCM barrel) would not cycle or lock back on the last round with Tula/Herters or Wolf until I installed an A5 receiver extension. Mil spec gas ports won't cycle crap ammo.....
I think that, right there, shows what the VLTOR A5 can contribute.
My DDM4V3 and I had a horrible experience with Tula a while back. Every 3rd round required mortaring. I believe I had an H1 buffer in it. I ran it wet but still had problems. I have not tried the carbine buffer and Tula in the gun but from what everyone said on M4c when I posed the problem, that may have been the combo that would have worked. I have not shot Tula out of my DD since.
Well boys, I think I scared it. Had a good long talk when I cleaned it earlier, brought it to the range and shot. Started with 200 rounds of XM193, no issues. 150 PPU, no issues. 80 PMC bronze no issues. 100 Herters, no issues.
Maybe it just wasn't quite broken in yet. I never used cheaper ammo until around the 500 round mark. Not sure if it's just a fluke or what. I don't plan on shooting Herters and such much, but like I said, would like it to if I choose to.
However I am now curious about the gas port. Can someone recommend me the tool to buy to get the actual size? If it's not crazy money I'd like to check this out.
This is good to hear. It's always good when you don't have to throw a lot of money at a problem like this.
Break in is very important. You might also find accuracy getting a little better between the 500 and 1,000 round count.
BCM 14.5 Middy, H buffer, has eaten everything without a hiccup...Wolf, Tula, PMC, and some stuff that came in a rusty ammo can.
CrazyFingers
05-13-13, 09:18
16" BCM midlength with ~2500 rounds through it. The only thing it ever choked on was Tula (short-stroked) when it was brand new. Runs fine on XM193 & XM855, but the majority of rounds through it are Barnaul Brown Bear & Wolf WPA with 0 failures.
0 Failures with my reloads too (24.5gr IMR 4320, 55gr Hornady FMJBT)
I have this Sabre 14.5 middy with an .080" gas port. And it runs Herters like it was made for it. :p
.080" gas port.
Well no DUH!
Well boys, I think I scared it. Had a good long talk when I cleaned it earlier, brought it to the range and shot. Started with 200 rounds of XM193, no issues. 150 PPU, no issues. 80 PMC bronze no issues. 100 Herters, no issues.
Maybe it just wasn't quite broken in yet. I never used cheaper ammo until around the 500 round mark. Not sure if it's just a fluke or what. I don't plan on shooting Herters and such much, but like I said, would like it to if I choose to.
That's good to hear. I've probably shot close to 50k rounds of the PMC 223A in the past 4 years through my 14.5in Midlengths without any problems. Never even owned a carbine length gas system till my SBRs got approved.
My 14.5" BCM Middy has fed any 5.56 I've fed it since day 1. 223 was another story. If I run a carbine buffer and spring it will feed anything, 5.56 Tula, Federal, PMC, PPU no issues; 223 works fine too. But, if I run the H buffer and either Springco white or blue springs it will only feed 5.56, ANY 223 will short stroke. I suppose I should be expecting that but I've ended up running the gun with the carbine buffer and spring rather than the softer shooting combination just to have a 100% reliable gun.
Well no DUH!
That port size is perfect in my opinion. The .076" on my BCM is much more picky on ammo and buffers.
thirteen/autumns
05-13-13, 16:18
BCM 14.5" midlength
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-mid-14%20ddl9.htm
approx 1000 rounds ran perfectly with an H2 or STT2 and standard carbine spring. Ran fine to with an original H buffer. Rounds include XM193/855, PMC bronze 55gr, Independence 55gr, and various handloads which I currently do not have the exacts on with me.
Don't know the gas port size though I might be finding out shortly pending some weekend shooting and poss changes to the upper.
my dd v5 has shot everything from Black Hills to Tula, Wolf, Herter's etc without any issue. Sure some is more accurate and cleaner than others but all have functioned as they should.
Has anyone had issues with .223?
Has anyone had issues with .223?
Here you go ....
My mid length cycles everything I shoot in it. Make sure you apply a generous amount of lube to the rifle.
If breaking in the rifle and application of lube won't rectify the issue, you may want to look at buffer/spring combinations.
Is it a 16" or 14.5" mid length?
How many rounds of full pressure ammo has been shot through it?
Every BCM mid length upper I own shoots whatever I run through it fine with a H buffer.
It ought to shoot any quality ammo - mine does. My mid-length Noveske (H buffer originally, now with an A5) shoots PMC all day long and always has. It's virtually the only range ammo I shoot. At least 8000 rounds of the stuff over the last few years. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that a properly designed and properly set-up rifle will shoot "pretty much anything".
I too would be suspicious of the gas port.
Dumb. I'll call DD on Monday. I was just curious. Like I said I don't shoot tula/pmc often but would like it to cycle when/if I do. It has cycled XM193 and PPU 100% from day 1.
Thank you for the info.
Sabre upper/BCM lower, loves everything. Eats a lot of Wolf because I'm cheap.
My barrel is a DD middy. It's backed by a BCM bolt and VLTOR A5 system. Runs everything I've put in it.
That includes alot of Tula and wolf.
My DDMV3 & BCM both cycle PMC Bronze right out f the box. Both are 16 inch.
Well boys, I think I scared it. Had a good long talk when I cleaned it earlier, brought it to the range and shot. Started with 200 rounds of XM193, no issues. 150 PPU, no issues. 80 PMC bronze no issues. 100 Herters, no issues.
Maybe it just wasn't quite broken in yet. I never used cheaper ammo until around the 500 round mark. Not sure if it's just a fluke or what. I don't plan on shooting Herters and such much, but like I said, would like it to if I choose to.
However I am now curious about the gas port. Can someone recommend me the tool to buy to get the actual size? If it's not crazy money I'd like to check this out.
BCM 14.5 Middy, H buffer, has eaten everything without a hiccup...Wolf, Tula, PMC, and some stuff that came in a rusty ammo can.
I have this Sabre 14.5 middy with an .080" gas port. And it runs Herters like it was made for it. :p
That's good to hear. I've probably shot close to 50k rounds of the PMC 223A in the past 4 years through my 14.5in Midlengths without any problems. Never even owned a carbine length gas system till my SBRs got approved.
my dd v5 has shot everything from Black Hills to Tula, Wolf, Herter's etc without any issue. Sure some is more accurate and cleaner than others but all have functioned as they should.
Mil spec gas ports won't cycle crap ammo...
This is one point where I challenge the conventional wisdom of "Mil-Spec": is there a good reason in the non-mil world why your gun's gas system shouldn't be able to consistently cycle all commonly available ammunition? Even the crap?
This is one point where I challenge the conventional wisdom of "Mil-Spec": is there a good reason in the non-mil world why your gun's gas system shouldn't be able to consistently cycle all commonly available ammunition? Even the crap?
I would assume a mil-spec gas tube to cycle mil-spec ammo. All other types of ammo is a bonus.
Having use to work at a shooting range, I always hear customers saying their AR15 is mil-spec this and mil-spec that. Yet when they buy ammo, they ask for the cheapest stuff usually steel cased and wonder why their high end mil-spec carbine doesn't work as well.
Mil-spec does not carry much weight with me when purchasing a rifle. I don't care if it has a picture of Elmer Fudd on the receiver, so long as the rifle runs and has a long service life.
I owned a mid-length 16" carbine that I shot until the barrel was worn to the point that accuracy fell way off. Someone who wanted a well worn looking carbine (I have no idea why) bought it from me and I purchased another mid-length 16" carbine of the same manufacture. Both carbines would feed and fire absolutely everything I shot through them, including SS109, M193 and Wolf steel case ammunition.
In my experience, carbines with barrels shorter than 14" are a little finicky about ammunition selection. That is why I stick with a 16" barrel. I also think that lube and break in are important before deciding whether or not a carbine will run reliably.
First of all mid length gas systems are not mil spec so this is not a valid argument.
Mil spec gas ports are for mil spec pressure ammunition, not necessarily mil spec ammo.
There is a fine line between commercial and mil spec gas port sizes. If you have an out of the box bushmaster rifle next to an out of the box BCM rifle, the bushmaster will have significantly more felt recoil than the BCM. The reason for that, is commercial guns have the gas port opened up so they will cycle with cheaper ammo. There are more people that buy commercial rifles than good rifles. The reason the gas ports are opened up is because the commercial companies would be fielding phone calls, emails and returns about their guns not working because the customer buys the cheapest gun in the store and the cheapest ammo to shoot through it. I would much rather spend a little more on ammo and have a smoother shooting rifle than a cheap gun and cheap ammo.
My Middys have never had an issue with any ammo. Seems many of the people with Middys having issues have been jacking around with the buffer/spring combinations. I wouldn't own a rifle that required a premium ammo diet to function.....no different than I wouldn't own a car that required premium gas to function properly.
Look at Lucky Gunners 10,000 rounds tests of Federal, Tula, Wolf, and Brown Bear ammo. They graphs show very interesting things about the ammo, and may give a better understanding of why certain ammo, especially Tula, may not function in you rifle.
....... I wouldn't own a rifle that required a premium ammo diet to function.....no different than I wouldn't own a car that required premium gas to function properly.
I feel the same way. I want a rifle that will run on anything and everything I can scrounge up.
SpeedRacer
05-27-13, 09:54
FWIW, despite reading reports saying it wouldn't, my DDV7LW 14.5" midlength gobbles any ammo I've fed it. I brought it straight to a recent VTAC Street Fighter class with a whopping 16rds (zeroing) through it. Based on recommendations I had read, I devirginized it with ~300rds of M855, and then proceeded to put approx. 900rds of WPA 55gr through it without a single failure under pretty damn harsh conditions, without cleaning. It has since had another case of Wolf through it in other classes again without a single issue.
Point is IMO there's no scientific reason they shouldn't run right with any ammo, even a 14.5" midlength. If a manufacturer chooses to design a system that only run with mil-spec loads, I'd say it's just that...a choice.
Wreckingball911
05-27-13, 11:45
I've had federal xm193, 855, and wpa 223 through my mid and it cycled flawlessly. Now that I say that it will probably choke. Go figure.
My question is about running 223 through a 14.5" middy. Any 5.56 cycles fine. Any 223 short strokes UNLESS I swap out buffed and spring. Anyone having issues with 223?
My question is about running 223 through a 14.5" middy. Any 5.56 cycles fine. Any 223 short strokes UNLESS I swap out buffed and spring. Anyone having issues with 223?
Mine runs fine with 223.....BCM 14.5' LW Middy....H Buffer & Standard GI Spring.
I have a 16 inch BCM Middy, BCM BCG, carbine buffer spring, and an H buffer. Haven't had a problem with it cycling and firing any ammo I have shot out of it. However, Wolf and Tula .223 have had regular failures to lock back on the last round, Tula will fail to lock back more often then not, Wolf its a coin toss. I have also had one or two instances where PMC .223 failed to lock back. With PMC Xtac and XM193 and XM855 I have never had a problem.
Colt M4 and no issues with 5.56 or .223 going through it. I have never put any steel through it and don't see me doing so either. I have used several brands of brass cased including reloads.
Colt M4 and no issues with 5.56 or .223 going through it. I have never put any steel through it and don't see me doing so either. I have used several brands of brass cased including reloads.
Colt makes a mid length?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2
Delta_Elite
06-14-13, 09:07
14.5 Noveske Afghan shoots everything even Tula, wolf and silver bear curios to see if it would shoot the steel and it takes everything.
NHbowhunter
06-20-13, 16:04
The only mid-length that I own is an older Armalite. It eats everything that it's fed, from match loads to hand loads and a bunch of cheap stuff in between. Several thousand rounds, no FTF's or FTE's.
RogerinTPA
06-20-13, 19:37
Mil-spec does not carry much weight with me when purchasing a rifle. I don't care if it has a picture of Elmer Fudd on the receiver, so long as the rifle runs and has a long service life.
Having a carbine closer to being MilSpec/TDP adds to the reliability. Most people with substandard ARs use the same argument. Settling for a commercial grade AR and hoping for the best, is not what a wise decision when all they had to do is wait and save for an additional month or two, and purchased a much higher quality weapon.
In my experience, carbines with barrels shorter than 14" are a little finicky about ammunition selection. That is why I stick with a 16" barrel. I also think that lube and break in are important before deciding whether or not a carbine will run reliably.
Not in my experience. My DD MK18 with it's 10.3 inch barrel works just fine with PMC & Wolf with the H buffer that came with it. So does the 12.5 Noveske NSR upper.
Look at Lucky Gunners 10,000 rounds tests of Federal, Tula, Wolf, and Brown Bear ammo. They graphs show very interesting things about the ammo, and may give a better understanding of why certain ammo, especially Tula, may not function in you rifle.
Don't take the test out of context. It wasn't even close to reality. Doing a self described 'Epic Torture Test' doing mag dumps with four POS BMs means nothing. No one runs their AR like that. They were shooting 10K rounds per BM in a long weekend without supplying sufficient lube. Let us know when they do another test with MilSpec, CHF, a Noveske or KAC barrels. I'm sure the outcomes would have been vastly different.
Please read before posting. Your Colt isn't a mid length.
Colt M4 and no issues with 5.56 or .223 going through it. I have never put any steel through it and don't see me doing so either. I have used several brands of brass cased including reloads.
RogerinTPA-The torture test aspect wasn't what I had in mind. I was thinking about how they graphed out the way the different brands functioned, particularly the powder burn rate or pressure curve. Tula had some interesting charted results, and I thought that it might be relevant to the thread.
The_War_Wagon
06-21-13, 06:47
- Wolf
- Bear
- Tula
... by CHOICE. :cool:
- Wolf
- Bear
- Tula
... by CHOICE. :cool:
"GUCCI GUN" huh...;)
In my experience, carbines with barrels shorter than 14" are a little finicky about ammunition selection. That is why I stick with a 16" barrel.
I'll second RogerinTPA. Not in my experience either. In the old days a LOT of carbine gassed guns were picky. These days we know about gas ports and the appropriate buffers.
A properly gassed shorty will hang with the best of them.
I'll second RogerinTPA. Not in my experience either. In the old days a LOT of carbine gassed guns were picky. These days we know about gas ports and the appropriate buffers.
A properly gassed shorty will hang with the best of them.
I want a carbine that will reliably run on 52g-77g ammunition without hiccupping. Which carbines with 14.5" and shorter barrels do you shoot that can handle that broad range of ammunition?
I want a carbine that will reliably run on 52g-77g ammunition without hiccupping. Which carbines with 14.5" and shorter barrels do you shoot that can handle that broad range of ammunition?
Bullet weight shouldn't have very much impact on reliability. Any decent ammo in any of the weight in that range will run on a good BCM 11.5, a Colt 11.5, 14.5 in either of those brands. DD etc.
The BCM 14.5 middy is the only finicky gun I have. And it mellowed out after replacing the gas tube which was out of spec on the BCG end.
Coal Dragger
06-21-13, 15:05
My mid length upper with a Daniel Defense 18" doesn't like Wolf very much. Prior to the Syrac Ordnance adjustable gas block it ran Wolf just fine, but now it does not. I guess the Syrac leaks a bit too much.
RogerinTPA
06-21-13, 19:32
RogerinTPA-The torture test aspect wasn't what I had in mind. I was thinking about how they graphed out the way the different brands functioned, particularly the powder burn rate or pressure curve. Tula had some interesting charted results, and I thought that it might be relevant to the thread.
Gotcha.
Like I said previously, it's an interesting read but I'm still not convinced that the data and the way it was obtained is, well, worth the bandwidth. The data is skewed due to tremendous excessive heat introduced through an extreme high rate of fire, with bare minimum maintenance, and in the end, resulting in, wait for it...excessive wear. It's no where near normal wear on questionable barrels, made from questionable barrel steel, from a bottom feeding AR manufacturer. I have quality barrels (2 colts, and 1 sabre defense) with over 10K, with one of the colts having over 20K but, they got there through normal use, with a few carbine classes, having rarely been cleaned, but heavily lubed prior to use, over a one or two year time span.
Short of dissecting my barrels, I have experienced none of their findings. All have the original BCGs they started with, with no parts braking, and accuracy is still acceptable shooting mostly Wolf. When I can find some precision ammo and the time, I would like to do some 100, 200 and 300 accuracy tests just for my own curiosity, but shooting just Wolf, they've been consistently 3-4 MOA, out to 200 yards.
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