View Full Version : Springfield M1a 's
TheWaker43
05-12-13, 09:36
I am thinking of picking up a new Springfield M1a. I really do not know much about the M14 platform at all, just what I have read over the past couple weeks. I know it seems LRB, Fulton and Smith seem to be the way to go.
I also did not know much about AR's until a year or so ago but with help from this forum I ended up with a Noveske stripped lower, G&R LPK, BCM 16" middy upper, DD rails, Aimpoint PRO on LaRue mount, BAD-CASS, Troy sights, Geissele SSA, etc. It took me a while to assemble everything but I read a ton and think I did pretty good for my first build.
I do not mind doing the same with the M1a but I was wondering how the Springfield compares. I have heard some pretty discouraging stuff about the newer production models. Even the M14 platform in general.
Just an aside, my original plan was to get a CMP M1 Garand Special in .308 and a Remington 700 also in .308. But the Specials are sold out until mid 2014. So I though maybe a M1a sort of fell in between the two. I want to keep the classic wood and steel look also. And this will be purely a range/ fun gun. So I guess what I am asking is " is the Springfield M1a the Bushmaster of M14's?" Thanks.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-12-13, 10:15
Springfield M1As are the bushmaster, delton rifles of the M1A world. With one exception and that is Springfield rifles built with GI parts and these are typical older guns.
If I was you and I'm not buy once cry once, either get one of the rifles you mentioned or get a used gun with GI parts. I personal own and Armscorp M14 with GI parts (Winchester), it is national match conditioned and despite what some will tell you it shoots great.
Springfield M1As are the bushmaster, delton rifles of the M1A world. With one exception and that is Springfield rifles built with GI parts and these are typical older guns.
If I was you and I'm not buy once cry once, either get one of the rifles you mentioned or get a used gun with GI parts. I personal own and Armscorp M14 with GI parts (Winchester), it is national match conditioned and despite what some will tell you it shoots great.
Which always strikes me as very odd. If any company has the know how and history to make a great M1A it should be them. Added to that they tend to do a good to great job on their other products, it's just strange.
Is there some back story to that?
There are some very knowledgeable folks on this site-
http://m14forum.com/forums.php
M14s are expensive to get into. Easiest way to get a good rifle is watch the PX (the M14Forum equivalent of the EE) for good one to come up for sale. Here is a link to a Super Match built on an LRB receiver-
http://m14forum.com/px/139645-lrb-m14sa-super-match-nib-unfired-ne-ohio.html
An M14 with an E2 stock
http://m14forum.com/px/137697-pre-ban-1984-m1a-supermatch-sai-price-drop.html
Army Chief
05-12-13, 10:41
I honestly can't recall when Springfield began to run out of USGI parts, but I seem to think the migration to commercial equivalents was well underway by the late 1990s. Does anyone recall when the M1A began its slide from the go-to rifle to an uninspired "also-ran" example of the breed?
AC
TheWaker43
05-12-13, 11:02
I was hoping to stay around $2k which is about what the SAI would cost. That would give a bit of a start on a Leupold Mark 4 that I hope to mount on it. But seeing as a LRB receiver is $1000 I can easily see that going out the window. Damn, this looks like a long, dark, expensive road.
And I am reading the M14 forums too, but I trust the opinions here, so I am open to any advice.
At one point I had two LRB M25's (LRB's receiver with the scope rail dovetail machined in) built up by Smith Enterprise. They were always reliable, and beautiful. I sold them for a number of reasons but truth be told I miss em' from time to time. User Different might chime in. He's the guru with all things M14. Pretty sure he's a member on the forum. Might be worth trying to PM him here or on the M14 board.
Army Chief
05-12-13, 14:50
Damn, this looks like a long, dark, expensive road.
An accurate observation, based upon my experience over the years. M1As are great rifles, to be sure, but they have only gotten more costly and more exclusive with time. Lugged receivers, bedded actions, match barrels, exotic stocks ... the bottom line is that they have really gone the way of custom 1911s, where the refinement and quality have never been better, but the price of admission has only continued to rise. You don't really buy an M1A because you need one any longer (not even for competition); you buy one because you just happen to want an M1A.
AC
In the early nineties I owned several and shot them for various types of competition, playing, and even a bit of hunting. My observations were they worked well, were balanced kind of funny and were somewhat finicky to keep one as accurate as they started out. It seemed like I was always taking it to my smith for a bit of tweaking. They are a great piece of history and can be as accurate as most other rifles but for a serious shooter I'd look at the AR types. We also had several DRMO rifles at my department, 2 which were M-21's that even had Leatherwoods. 2 of them even had the fun switch. After a few years I sent them back as we were able to order patrol rifles.
Which always strikes me as very odd. If any company has the know how and history to make a great M1A it should be them. Added to that they tend to do a good to great job on their other products, it's just strange.
Is there some back story to that?
We could start with their long run of out of spec receivers that they wouldn't warranty.
Their receivers are good now though and they should have their act together, but there were definitely teething problems when the USGI parts ran out.
mkmckinley
05-12-13, 16:01
Which always strikes me as very odd. If any company has the know how and history to make a great M1A it should be them. Added to that they tend to do a good to great job on their other products, it's just strange.
Is there some back story to that?
Springfield Armory, Inc. isn't the same as the Gov't owned Springfield Armory which closed in 1968. They just licensed the name. The corporation "is not located in or near Springfield, Massachusetts and has no association with the original Springfield Armory. Springfield Armory, Inc. is based out of Geneseo, Illinois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Armory)"
If you are simply jonesing for an M1a, get an older Springfield with GI parts. These are good rifles that will shoot dependably.
I have shot a SE build on an LRB receiver. This was a beautiful rifle but it was expensive. Because genuine GI parts are so difficult to find and expensive, I would not//not recommend one of these rifles.
At one time, I had three Springfield rifles. Two were all GI parts. One of those was a Super Match national match parts rifle that was accurate to a fault - meaning it showed my mistakes very clearly.
The third was all Springfield parts. The parts looked authentic and included government engineering drawing numbers. The give away was that the drawing numbers were incorrect. The rifle shot well, was accurate enough, but, it was not a GI gun. It was the first to go. The others went when I standardized on one platform. The logistics af finding and maintaining parts became more time consuming than it should have been to make keeping the rifles fun.
Should you decide to go with an M1a, keep in mind that it requires grease and not oil. That makes the maintenance requirements different.
Were I to go to a 7.62 platform now, I would stay in the AR family.
m1a_scoutguy
05-12-13, 16:54
There are some very knowledgeable folks on this site-
http://m14forum.com/forums.php
M14s are expensive to get into. Easiest way to get a good rifle is watch the PX (the M14Forum equivalent of the EE) for good one to come up for sale. Here is a link to a Super Match built on an LRB receiver-
http://m14forum.com/px/139645-lrb-m14sa-super-match-nib-unfired-ne-ohio.html
An M14 with an E2 stock
http://m14forum.com/px/137697-pre-ban-1984-m1a-supermatch-sai-price-drop.html
I was hoping to stay around $2k which is about what the SAI would cost. That would give a bit of a start on a Leupold Mark 4 that I hope to mount on it. But seeing as a LRB receiver is $1000 I can easily see that going out the window. Damn, this looks like a long, dark, expensive road.
And I am reading the M14 forums too, but I trust the opinions here, so I am open to any advice.
Some good info above !! If you look at the above Forum and follow the PX,,good/great rifles pop up all the time !! The current craze has influenced prices some,,but if ya look in the correct places and watch long enough you will find what your looking for !! I will agree M1a rifles are a different breed and so are the people that love & shoot them,,,me included,,LOL !! Its just a different feeling all together & for me,,its well worth any trade off that the AR is better in,,,but that's just me !! I love my ARs,,but if I had a choice,,,my M1a's would stay & the AR would go,,:eek: I know the high end Super Match rifles can be fussy,,but I have had a Fulton NM Rifle with a Krieger BBL for years & thousands of rds and have done nothing to it but clean it & it shoots as good today as the day I got it,,but then that one is all GI parts !! I also had a Springfield Scout rifle for a very long time and lots of use and abuse and it never let me down,,that one was all Springer commercial parts,,great rifle also !! Its like anything out there,,there are good and bad of everything. I agree there is lots of good info here & there are guys here that have come & gone down the M1a road & thats fine,,there are some very knowledgeable peeps here,,,but if ya want the best info,,go to the above links & you will be better off,,LOL,,sorry guys no offense,,;) Lets face it,,,here we are all partial to the AR platform,& won't have it any other way,LOL !!
In 1990 I bought a Springfield M1-A for $850 in was all USGI except the the receiver. It has run perfect for many thousand rounds and is MOA with Nosler 180 ballistic tips. With irons it is my favorite rifle. It shines with the large statured American shooter. The fit seems like it was made custom for me.
If recommend getting a quality M1A/M14 build or just move over to something more modern in 7.62x51 - aka, Larue, FN, KAC, etc.
I have enjoyed shooting M14/M1As but for the money I prefer more modern designs.
These threads might help you out some.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48416
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56385
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59260
TheWaker43
05-13-13, 19:34
Thanks for all the replies. I am kind of getting scared of a M14 after all I have been reading. I still a have a while before I decide but right now it looks like I am either going with a LRB M25 receiver and go from there or back to my original plan of a Remington 700 now and a Garand Special when they come back in stock at CMP. I am a small guy too so I don't know if the M14 would be the best fit either.
DiabhailGadhar
05-13-13, 20:44
Man I was headed down the same road. I bought a Sage EBR/EMR stock with the intent of building a USMC M39 EMR and by the time I fully looked into it and the cost I could have more cheaply and easily bought a Larue OBR, Knights SR-25 or a number of other more accurate/reliable rifles. There was a time when that rifle was worth the cost. But now that there are several better options in the AR field your money is better spent with one of the previously mentioned 7.62 battle rifles. Plus AR's have a damn world of options, where as the M1A/M14 right off the bat has a problem with rail space. I could go on but at the end of the day I have a SCAR on the way to fill my 7.62 need and I highly doubt ill be looking back...especially considering I sold the stock for a profit....:D
m1a_scoutguy
05-13-13, 23:19
Thanks for all the replies. I am kind of getting scared of a M14 after all I have been reading. I still a have a while before I decide but right now it looks like I am either going with a LRB M25 receiver and go from there or back to my original plan of a Remington 700 now and a Garand Special when they come back in stock at CMP. I am a small guy too so I don't know if the M14 would be the best fit either.
Man I was headed down the same road. I bought a Sage EBR/EMR stock with the intent of building a USMC M39 EMR and by the time I fully looked into it and the cost I could have more cheaply and easily bought a Larue OBR, Knights SR-25 or a number of other more accurate/reliable rifles. There was a time when that rifle was worth the cost. But now that there are several better options in the AR field your money is better spent with one of the previously mentioned 7.62 battle rifles. Plus AR's have a damn world of options, where as the M1A/M14 right off the bat has a problem with rail space. I could go on but at the end of the day I have a SCAR on the way to fill my 7.62 need and I highly doubt ill be looking back...especially considering I sold the stock for a profit....:D
Don't get scared !!!! :D Going with the LRB is a great & smart choice for sure,,although like stated above,,a good used older Springer is a great and probably a less expensive option,,& it will do exactly everything the LRB will do !! If your a smaller framed guy,,I would lean towards the shorter 18.5 Inch Scout BBL,,lots of good choices out there and some of the shorter BBLs are very,,very accurate !!
I think the thing to look at is if you want/get a M1a,,keep it in the basic configuration,,,what DiabailGadhar is talking about is true & there lies the problem,,,,even though the Military puts them in super/cool/heavy/railed platforums,,& in the end it does make it a better rifle,,(kinda)they have unlimited budgets,,,,we don't !! But for me & most people,,its to much wiz-bang-tacticool shit !! :rolleyes: Don't try to turn the rifle into something it isn't,,it was never made for rails,,lights,,lazers,,etc,,the list goes on,,,keep it simple !! I agree,,some AR style 308 rifles are more accurate than a basic M1a,,& AR style rifles are less maint than a M1a,,,but M1a rifles are NOT that complicated & ya can shoot them for thousands of rds without much of anything special being done to them other than cleaning the gas piston and making sure there is grease on the correct parts,,,not much different than making sure you have enough "lube" on your AR !!! Also,,AR 308 rifles aren't a heck of a lot cheaper than a M1a,,most times they cost more,,but then they have more "stuff" on them !!
Anyways,,,I'm not trying to convince you to get a M1a,,just trying to get ya the facts,,LOL !! As good as LRB is,,check out Jon Wolfe,,he is the best M1a/M-14 Smith out there that most people don't know about,,,:D http://www.shop.m-14parts.com/main.sc
Thanks for all the replies. I am kind of getting scared of a M14 after all I have been reading. I still a have a while before I decide but right now it looks like I am either going with a LRB M25 receiver and go from there or back to my original plan of a Remington 700 now and a Garand Special when they come back in stock at CMP. I am a small guy too so I don't know if the M14 would be the best fit either.
If have the M14 itch, nothing is going to scratch it like an M14. But if you're just looking for a good semi auto 7.62 there probably are better options out there. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.
(For the record I own an AR10 and a 1989 M1A with USGI parts plus a few upgrades)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/sr338/3ED5DB48-54F6-44A6-85C2-0FF7F58B2598-697-000000E32B84ABAD_zps2cf86f97.jpg
wetidlerjr
05-14-13, 05:32
I've had an SA M1A since 2002 and at that time they were still using GI barrels. I changed everything else I could on mine to USGI shortly after purchasing it and I have had zero issues with it. Whether I can attribute that to the USGI parts is unknown as the SA parts caused no problems. It now resides in a Troy chassis.
I've had an SA M1A since 2002 and at that time they were still using GI barrels. I changed everything else I could on mine to USGI shortly after purchasing it and I have had zero issues with it. Whether I can attribute that to the USGI parts is unknown as the SA parts caused no problems. It now resides in a Troy chassis.
I really need to sell mine as I never shoot it and keep thinking how good it would look in a troy chassis. Another $850 I shouldn't spend.
wetidlerjr
05-14-13, 08:01
I really need to sell mine as I never shoot it and keep thinking how good it would look in a troy chassis. Another $850 I shouldn't spend.
I paid about half of that as I recall as it was on sale.
Don't be afraid of the recent production Springfield Armory M1A barrels. The last 2 M1A's with non-GI barrels I shot would hold under 1-1/4 MOA out to 400 yards with decent ammunition.
I would avoid the new production polymer stock. They are very flexible and do not give you good tension between the stock ferrule and barrel band. I shot a rifle with the new "Gumby" stock and had to sling in tighter than normal to get the rifle to shoot good groups. The rifle owner could not shoot well with the rifle, but it was not the barrel that caused problems, it was the stock.
Buy a M1A with a wood stock and pick up a fiberglass GI stock if you don't like wood. You can always sell the wood stock and recover part of your money. The last GI stock I picked up was purchased from Fulton Armory. It looked a little rough, but cleaned up and painted nicely.
If you are not going to compete in CMP High Power matches, I suggest installing a Schuster adjustable gas plug and Springfield Armory muzzle brake. You would be surprised how much their addition affects accuracy. You can tune the gas plug for best accuracy with your loads and change the tune when you change ammunition or reload recipes.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-14-13, 12:54
Don't be afraid of the recent production Springfield Armory M1A barrels. The last 2 M1A's with non-GI barrels I shot would hold under 1-1/4 MOA out to 400 yards with decent ammunition.
I would avoid the new production polymer stock. They are very flexible and do not give you good tension between the stock ferrule and barrel band. I shot a rifle with the new "Gumby" stock and had to sling in tighter than normal to get the rifle to shoot good groups. The rifle owner could not shoot well with the rifle, but it was not the barrel that caused problems, it was the stock.
By a M1A with a wood stock and pick up a fiberglass GI stock if you don't like wood. You can always sell the wood stock and recover part of your money. The last GI stock I picked up was purchased from Fulton Armory. It looked a little rough, but cleaned up and painted nicely.
If you are not going to compete in CMP High Power matches, I suggest installing a Schuster adjustable gas plug and Springfield Armory muzzle brake. You would be surprised how much their addition affects accuracy. You can tune the gas plug for best accuracy with your loads and change the tune when you change ammunition or reload recipes.
I'm not quit sure how the concern with the rifle became the barrels. But in my experience, most of the issues with Springfield's rifles has been related to the bolts, and or improper machining of the actions. I saw a lot of rifles coming apart at the bolt roller and operating rod, they just don't like to stay in the channel on those springers. I have not till this day seen any of the SOCOM or Scout models make it threw 200 rounds before they went back for service.
I'm not quit sure how the concern with the rifle became the barrels. But in my experience, most of the issues with Springfield's rifles has been related to the bolts, and or improper machining of the actions. I saw a lot of rifles coming apart at the bolt roller and operating rod, they just don't like to stay in the channel on those springers. I have not till this day seen any of the SOCOM or Scout models make it threw 200 rounds before they went back for service.
Some M1A's did have the problem you describe. There was a run of rifles made where there was not enough clearance in the area where the bolt roller rests on the receiver when the bolt is at full battery. The bolt roller would bang against the receiver when the rifle was fired and cause bolt roller failure. I bought a rifle cheap, because of this symptom. After increasing the clearance (don't try this at home) and replacing the bolt roller, the rifle ran like a champ. I have not heard of this happening in recent past.
OP, If you do not purchase a new M1A and buy used, look for a "F" stamped on top of the bolt indicating it is a forged bolt. If it is a GI bolt, it will have drawing numbers on it instead. Make sure the Op Rod is aligned with the underside of the barrel and it moves smoothly. Hold the rifle upright and check to see if the front sight appears to be canted. A good M1A should shoot several thousand rounds before needing any parts replaced. Most of mine have run 7,000 to 10,000 before I had to do any serious work to them.
PM me if you want a suggested grease and lube procedure for the rifle.
and there ya-go.. I bought a SOCOM 16, just because I always wanted a M1A and I like short rifles (carbines). The sights are huge and work great for old eyes, as opposed to the tiny aperture. I don't expect it to ping a beer can at a hundred yards, but it'll sure rock a paper plate at fifty yards;) It never fails to bring a smile to the face, a racing heart and sometimes a bruise to go with it. I've never regretted spending that $1500 and it was a long time ago.. Cheers.. Ron
PS: Thumper has seem probably 1000-1200 rounds so far..
An accurate observation, based upon my experience over the years. M1As are great rifles, to be sure, but they have only gotten more costly and more exclusive with time. Lugged receivers, bedded actions, match barrels, exotic stocks ... the bottom line is that they have really gone the way of custom 1911s, where the refinement and quality have never been better, but the price of admission has only continued to rise. You don't really buy an M1A because you need one any longer (not even for competition); you buy one because you just happen to want an M1A.
AC
I've been meaning to buys Springfield SOCOM 16 for an eventual Juggernaut Tactical Bullpup conversion. I'm a newbie when it comes to the M1A platform, so what do you guys recommend? Go with a SOCOM , or buy a barreled action from LRB or Fulton?:confused:
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-18-13, 08:50
I've been meaning to buys Springfield SOCOM 16 for an eventual Juggernaut Tactical Bullpup conversion. I'm a newbie when it comes to the M1A platform, so what do you guys recommend? Go with a SOCOM , or buy a barreled action from LRB or Fulton?:confused:
LRB, 762 or a used rifle with GI parts from Armscorp. That Juggercrap is ****ING STUPID!
LRB, 762 or a used rifle with GI parts from Armscorp. That Juggercrap is ****ING STUPID!
Be careful with Armscorp rifles. I have seen two of them with cracked receivers after very few rounds fired.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-18-13, 22:50
Armscorp or armscore?
Armscorp or armscore?
Armscorp.
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-20-13, 09:55
Armscorp.
Oh in my experience they are the best of the non forged M14, Its important to note at this point, not everyone is as educated as they should be in regard to what is "SAFE AMMO" to be used in these systems. Some of the issues related to this entire discussion could be related to ammo that is to "HOT" for the system.
Oh in my experience they are the best of the non forged M14, Its important to note at this point, not everyone is as educated as they should be in regard to what is "SAFE AMMO" to be used in these systems. Some of the issues related to this entire discussion could be related to ammo that is to "HOT" for the system.
You have a valid point, but one of the rifles I saw was a brand new one on display at a local gun shop. The gun shop owner said he contacted the company about returning the rifle and having the receiver replaced.
A car gets you from Point A to point B. But for whatever reason...I like that "A" to "B" trip FAR more on a motorcycle.
A good analogy on a bolt gun and an M1A. Yeah the bolt gun is easier, but to me the M1A is a bit more fun. No doubt about it a modern AR design, especially a good one will EASILY shoot rings around most M1A's. But theres that "Car vs Bike" thing again. Many of us simply WANT the bike.
I'm not known for being particularly Lucky, but my 5 year old M1A Loaded model is still going strong and ACCURATE with 3K down the tube. It's far from an early model with ALL GI parts either. With 168 or 175 gr Gold Medal Match at 100 yds five shots, off the bench, w/scope SHOULD be in a ragged hole, or I screwed the pooch at some point.
Mine has been very accurate, once I fixed a few little items. Bedded the stock, added a NM spring guide (simply because I was given one)
And added a quality SEI scope mount and a good scope.
At 62 YOA I simply can NOT shoot irons accurately any more. So went with a scope.
The GI issue stocks are in my opinion crap. Too short and FAR too much drop at the comb. WORTHLESS for a scoped rifle. One can add a strap on cheek piece to add height...what I did.
There are now several stocks out there that really solve the height issue as well ; Sage, Vltor, JAE, and a few others.
YMMV but I like the M1A platform.
FN in MT
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