View Full Version : Pros & Cons - Daniel Defense Rail Systems
ColtM4Carbine
05-13-13, 21:42
Looking to add a 12.0 FSP rail system on my Colt 6920. I have narrowed my decision down to three Daniel Defense rails:
Omega X
https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/omega-x-rail/omega-x-railtm-12-0-fsp-carbine.html
Lite
https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/ar-15-lite-rail/ar15-lite-railtm-12-0-fsp-carbine.html
M4A1
https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/ris-ii/m4a1-fsp-rail-interface-system-ii-ris-ii.html
Other than the obvious, what are the differences between these rails? I am searching for pros and cons of each rail from preferably members who have these rails installed on their own weapons.
Thank you.
I like my lite...except for cleaning and oiling the exterior of the barrel. Its hard to get to after shooting in the rain, etc. That's not something I thought about before my purchase. Its not a big deal but it was a surprise since I didn't think about it before I got it wet.
I like that the Omega X has integrated sling attachments. And that it is smaller in diameter, I think- it feels better in my hands.
If the Omega X rail was one piece, and bolted up the same way as the LITE rails, it would be the best DD rail, in my eyes. I understand, they did use the LITE rail on the Omega X's before.
I've got all 3 and they're all really solid rails. excellent attention to detail and quality manufacturing.
my favorite is the RIS II because of its smaller diameter, to me it almost feels like a Troy alpha rail, but with quad rail functionality. the lite feels like it has a wider diameter, but not as wide as the omega X. the omega X has a more oval shape, but is the only one with QD attach points. the lite rail and RIS II feel like they have a more robust mounting system than the omega x
all are a great upgrade for a carbine length ar with FSP though
I've had and used all 3 including the RIS II.
RIS II is the only quad rail I will use from here on out. Definitely like the design, structure and how it feels like a tubular/modular rail like the troys. Only con I can see which is the price and really a breaks the deal for most I think.
HardLuck682
05-13-13, 22:12
I have a M4A1 RIS II on my rifle. Its a great SOLID rail system. The only thing that may be said bad about it would be the weight, nearly 17oz. I had my hands on the Lite and Omega before deciding on the RIS II. The Lite and Omega definitely feel larger than the RIS II
I hope this helps.
Even though the LITE rail has a more robust, or is at least thought to be, has anyone have had problems with the Omega X rail mounting system?
I am sure DD has done some serious torture test on all their rails. Actually I think I read something about tests they did for the Omega, before I bought.
But, has anyone seen an Omega X rail fail?
ColtM4Carbine
05-13-13, 22:16
I've had and used all 3 including the RIS II.
RIS II is the only quad rail I will use from here on out. Definitely like the design, structure and how it feels like a tubular/modular rail like the troys. Only con I can see which is the price and really a breaks the deal for most I think.
Of the three rails, the RIS II is the heaviest (17.1 Oz.) compared to the Lite (14.1 Oz.) and Omega X (14.6 Oz.)
I know it's only about 3 Oz. more but is it a noticeable difference? Also, it is wider than the other two rails, does it fit well in the hand? I have a Magpul AFG I plan to attach to the rail as well, any experience with one of those on the RIS II?
steyrman13
05-13-13, 22:17
The omega x only has a rear sling point, while the lite has rear and front. The link to the lite doesn't state it or show it, but mine does and it's the newer one. The size difference in the x and lite is the lite shorter from top to bottom. The bottom part is chopped closer to the barrel; it feels awesome in my hands. The omega is 2 parts and the lite is one piece. Think about the issue if you have a pinned and welded MD. The omega could still be removed while the lite cannot.
The RIS II is wider and heavier than both and has no integrated sling points. Only reason you would need it is for grenade launcher attachment or because you like the feel of it
themighty9mm
05-13-13, 22:22
I have the RIS 2 m4a1, I love it. Small diameter, can take the bottom off for cleaning, fairly light weight. Solid as a rock. Was a bit of a pain to install but then again it was also the first time I have broken the gun down to that point either.
I'm a big fan of the Centurion rails for this sort of thing. Very light and they do two things that the DD doesn't do--has integral flush cups and a low profile bottom rail so it doesn't feel so much like a 2x4. DDM4 rails have similar improvements but aren't yet available for sale individually.
I even found it for you in stock: Centurion Arms C4 Rail System - 12.0 FSP (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2975)
I'm a big fan of the Centurion rails for this sort of thing. Very light and they do two things that the DD doesn't do--has integral flush cups and a low profile bottom rail so it doesn't feel so much like a 2x4. DDM4 rails have similar improvements but aren't yet available for sale individually.
I even found it for you in stock: Centurion Arms C4 Rail System - 12.0 FSP (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2975)
Have you ever held a RIS II rail? the bottom rail is absolutely low profile.
ColtM4Carbine
05-14-13, 00:14
I didn't realize the AR-15 Lite Rail was a one piece rail. Now it's down to the Omega X and RIS II. Both are expensive so the price difference between the two isn't a big deal for me. Still looking for more opinions.
ColtM4Carbine
05-14-13, 00:18
I'm a big fan of the Centurion rails for this sort of thing. Very light and they do two things that the DD doesn't do--has integral flush cups and a low profile bottom rail so it doesn't feel so much like a 2x4. DDM4 rails have similar improvements but aren't yet available for sale individually.
I even found it for you in stock: Centurion Arms C4 Rail System - 12.0 FSP (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2975)
I was considering the C4 rail because I wanted to avoid punching out the FSB. However, if I have to remove the gas tube I wouldn't mind removing the FSB if it keeps me from cutting anything.
Have you ever held a RIS II rail? the bottom rail is absolutely low profile.
Yes, the RIS is, I know that. It lacks flush cups and is very heavy.
I was considering the C4 rail because I wanted to avoid punching out the FSB. However, if I have to remove the gas tube I wouldn't mind removing the FSB if it keeps me from cutting anything.
You're going to have to get the front handguard cap off somehow regardless of what you use.
ColtM4Carbine
05-14-13, 00:44
You're going to have to get the front handguard cap off somehow regardless of what you use.
Basically the reason why I would get the C4 would be due to the ease of installation. No removal of FSB by just cutting the delta ring and handguard cap. Daniel Defense rails require the removal of the FSB because they have their own barrel nut. In this case, I would be able to remove both the delta ring assembly and handguard cap without cutting. I could do the same thing with the C4 rail but by removing the FSB, it kind of negates the ease of installation.
I was considering the C4 rail because I wanted to avoid punching out the FSB. However, if I have to remove the gas tube I wouldn't mind removing the FSB if it keeps me from cutting anything.
^Something to consider... The removal of the gas tube only requires punching out a little roll pin. Trying to punch out taper pins is a-whole-nother ballgame.
Basically the reason why I would get the C4 would be due to the ease of installation. No removal of FSB by just cutting the delta ring and handguard cap. Daniel Defense rails require the removal of the FSB because they have their own barrel nut. In this case, I would be able to remove both the delta ring assembly and handguard cap without cutting. I could do the same thing with the C4 rail but by removing the FSB, it kind of negates the ease of installation.
Why the hesitation to cut parts? You'll be taking on far more work for the sake of 2 cheap parts. That, on top of the fact that you would need more tools and a vise block, to do the job which would be an additional expense if you dont already have them. -- in which case, getting spares of the parts you cut, if you really want to, would still be much cheaper.
Just my 2 cents, bud. Not trying to be a jerk. I myself really like the RIS, in fact, I have mk18 rails on my 2 go to guns. I'm also on the same boat as you in that I'm considering doing the same to a spare m4 upper. However, as much as I like the RIS, the amount of work needed for an otherwise single update/upgrade, just isnt worth it IMHO... esp when a solid option like the C4 is available.
Even though the LITE rail has a more robust, or is at least thought to be, has anyone have had problems with the Omega X rail mounting system?
I am sure DD has done some serious torture test on all their rails. Actually I think I read something about tests they did for the Omega, before I bought.
But, has anyone seen an Omega X rail fail?
I have an 12.0 FSP Omega X on my 6920. No problems after 1k rounds.
Even though the LITE rail has a more robust, or is at least thought to be, has anyone have had problems with the Omega X rail mounting system?
I am sure DD has done some serious torture test on all their rails. Actually I think I read something about tests they did for the Omega, before I bought.
But, has anyone seen an Omega X rail fail?
I've seen a DD 12in Lite Rail fail. The RIS II is the more robust out of the 3 the OP mentioned.
steyrman13
05-14-13, 07:44
I've seen a DD 12in Lite Rail fail. The RIS II is the more robust out of the 3 the OP mentioned.
What caused the rail to fail? Out of curiosity
What caused the rail to fail? Out of curiosity
blunt force with a vert grip used as leverage though not on purpose. I'll leave it at that.
skijunkie55
05-14-13, 08:41
Of the three rails, the RIS II is the heaviest (17.1 Oz.) compared to the Lite (14.1 Oz.) and Omega X (14.6 Oz.)
I know it's only about 3 Oz. more but is it a noticeable difference? Also, it is wider than the other two rails, does it fit well in the hand? I have a Magpul AFG I plan to attach to the rail as well, any experience with one of those on the RIS II?
Not sure about the AFG 1 but in my experience the AFG 2 works great. I like the slimmer profile and straight top.
I've got the omega as well and can't tell much of a difference in weight. http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt28/skijunkie55/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2780.jpg
From some threads I've looked at, the AFG1 will work. Might have to trim the rail covers tho?
http://i.imgur.com/skI5W.jpg
Now if only you could get your hands on both rails to see which one you prefer before spending $400+ on them :D
ColtM4Carbine
05-14-13, 09:02
^Something to consider... The removal of the gas tube only requires punching out a little roll pin. Trying to punch out taper pins is a-whole-nother ballgame.
Why the hesitation to cut parts? You'll be taking on far more work for the sake of 2 cheap parts. That, on top of the fact that you would need more tools and a vise block, to do the job which would be an additional expense if you dont already have them. -- in which case, getting spares of the parts you cut, if you really want to, would still be much cheaper.
Just my 2 cents, bud. Not trying to be a jerk. I myself really like the RIS, in fact, I have mk18 rails on my 2 go to guns. I'm also on the same boat as you in that I'm considering doing the same to a spare m4 upper. However, as much as I like the RIS, the amount of work needed for an otherwise single update/upgrade, just isnt worth it IMHO... esp when a solid option like the C4 is available.
I may have to reconsider the C4, appreciate your insight!
Littlelebowski
05-14-13, 09:07
I like my lite...except for cleaning and oiling the exterior of the barrel. Its hard to get to after shooting in the rain, etc. That's not something I thought about before my purchase. Its not a big deal but it was a surprise since I didn't think about it before I got it wet.
Try just air drying it and spraying with Eezox as needed. Not sure if you just got out but it takes a while to realize that a lot of the stuff the Corps taught about PMCS can be overkill as a civvie. I just rinse mine with water every once in a while (rained on or not) and never oil.
Not sure if you just got out but it takes a while to realize that a lot of the stuff the Corps taught about PMCS can be overkill as a civvie.
Stop, the truth can be hard for some of us!!:laugh:
blunt force with a vert grip used as leverage though not on purpose. I'll leave it at that.
Interesting.
I had a Lite Rail that I replaced with a RIS II. The features I like such as the removable bottom and thinner profile have already been mentioned. There are some cons to the RIS II, though:
1) Price
2) Availability
3) Difficulty/hassle to install (those 6 screws are a bitch)
4) Weight
5) Lack of QD sling cups
6) Tight internal dimensions make gas block selection critical.
7) Tight muzzle end interferes with some perm'd muzzle devices
All of that said, I still wouldn't trade mine. As much of a PITA as they are to tighten, those 6 screws are super secure.
The Centurion C4 is a very nice rail and super simple to install, but also has the "I-beam" feel of the Lite rail.
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_9751.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/IMG_9751.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/DDARLT1.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/DDARLT1.jpg.html)
ColtM4Carbine
05-14-13, 11:25
Looks like I can't go wrong with the DD RIS II, Omega X, or the Centurion C4. Now choosing one:confused:
the c4 rail is definitely in a separate category as far as ease of installation goes, but I much prefer the profile of the RIS II
As another DD Lite/Omega/RIS-II owner, who adores all of his DD rails, consider this another vote for the C4 12.0FSP handguard. The DD units really are great for what they are, and would still be my choice building an upper from the ground up. Since you've already got the 6920, just get the C4 and install it yourself.
The C4 is almost the compromise profile for me, I like different things about all those above DD handguard profiles, but the C4 seems to just fit in the middle of all of those - and that's a good thing in my book.
wakebrdr142
05-14-13, 15:22
I've also heard of RIS II's bending on the lower section due to a vert grip. I have both rails but haven't decided which rail I like better (due to work and no time to shoot). You can tell the diff in weight but it's not enough for me to care. I would guess they can take the same amount of abuse.
Install on these rails are really easy with simple tools. The hardest part was the sloooooow process of tightening the 6 screws.
I've also heard of RIS II's bending on the lower section due to a vert grip. I have both rails but haven't decided which rail I like better (due to work and no time to shoot). You can tell the diff in weight but it's not enough for me to care. I would guess they can take the same amount of abuse.
Install on these rails are really easy with simple tools. The hardest part was the sloooooow process of tightening the 6 screws.
There was a guy on here that posted a pic where the bottom section on a RIS II was bent from loading a bipod, but DD re-designed the rail to compensate for that.
Try just air drying it and spraying with Eezox as needed. Not sure if you just got out but it takes a while to realize that a lot of the stuff the Corps taught about PMCS can be overkill as a civvie. I just rinse mine with water every once in a while (rained on or not) and never oil.
No, it's been awhile. Needless to say pretty much everything I know is...obsolete. My main concern is rust. I don't clean to IG inspection quality anymore, but I still don't want rust. I'll try the Eezox.
There was a guy on here that posted a pic where the bottom section on a RIS II was bent from loading a bipod, but DD re-designed the rail to compensate for that.
Was this something recent? Link? Picture?
Was this something recent? Link? Picture?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31269
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=31269
Glad to see it was from 3+ years ago.
Magic_Salad0892
05-14-13, 22:17
I've seen a DD 12in Lite Rail fail. The RIS II is the more robust out of the 3 the OP mentioned.
How did it fail?
wakebrdr142
05-14-13, 22:54
There was a guy on here that posted a pic where the bottom section on a RIS II was bent from loading a bipod, but DD re-designed the rail to compensate for that.
That's good to know! Looks like the old rail had more holes drilled towards the front while the new rail is solid metal. Cheers.
How did it fail?
sheered off at the mounting area.
Are you looking for a full-length rail?
Also, why did you settle on DD?
What about the Geissele MK4 or Centurion CMR? Unless you need all of that rail-estate, that is...
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 09:28
Are you looking for a full-length rail?
Also, why did you settle on DD?
What about the Geissele MK4 or Centurion CMR? Unless you need all of that rail-estate, that is...
Yes, looking for a full length rail. I settled on DD because it seems as a consensus, they make the best rail systems.
As for my need in a full length rail; I have longer arms and would like to mount my fore grip further down the barrel. Near the FSB would be the ideal location, I currently have the Magpul MOE handguard which is too short for my long arms. I also would like to install some sort of light in the future but as for now, a longer rail is for comfort rather than for accessories.
Yes, looking for a full length rail. I settled on DD because it seems as a consensus, they make the best rail systems.
As for my need in a full length rail; I have longer arms and would like to mount my fore grip further down the barrel. Near the FSB would be the ideal location, I currently have the Magpul MOE handguard which is too short for my long arms. I also would like to install some sort of light in the future but as for now, a longer rail is for comfort rather than for accessories.
What I should have asked was: "Are you set on leaving the FSB intact?"
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 09:40
What I should have asked was: "Are you set on leaving the FSB intact?"
Initially my plan was to remove it and install a low profile gas block. Had a few people tell me that grinding down the FSB and using the original gas block would be better than installing a different one, however I wouldn't be interested in grinding down the FSB.
I wouldn't be interested in grinding down the FSB.
How come?
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 10:46
How come?
Not a big fan of cutting anything. (FSB, Delta ring, etc..)
It would probably be more time consuming as well?
Not a big fan of cutting anything. (FSB, Delta ring, etc..)
Generally I agree, but the reason we recommend cutting down the fsb for a LPGB instead of installing an aftermarket one is because the two taper pins that secure it to the barrel is the most secure method of gas block installation there is. Replacing that with a set-screwed gas block doesn't compare. Not only that, but (1) the Colt barrel you have isn't dimpled for set screws and (2) you'll still have one of the taper pin cuts un-covered unless you get a longer gas block like a Larue designed to cover the cuts. It's a very simple affair to cut the tower off the FSB, clean up/round the edges with a file or grinder, and paint it with HT grill/header paint. Like I said, most secure LPGB option out there.
I understand that most things involving firearms and cutting/dremels gets to be a little WECSOG, but this is one true exception to that.
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 11:29
Generally I agree, but the reason we recommend cutting down the fsb for a LPGB instead of installing an aftermarket one is because the two taper pins that secure it to the barrel is the most secure method of gas block installation there is. Replacing that with a set-screwed gas block doesn't compare. Not only that, but (1) the Colt barrel you have isn't dimpled for set screws and (2) you'll still have one of the taper pin cuts un-covered unless you get a longer gas block like a Larue designed to cover the cuts. It's a very simple affair to cut the tower off the FSB, clean up/round the edges with a file or grinder, and paint it with HT grill/header paint. Like I said, most secure LPGB option out there.
I understand that most things involving firearms and cutting/dremels gets to be a little WECSOG, but this is one true exception to that.
I also wouldn't want to grind down the FSB because I would need to buy a new front BUIS. I prefer flip up irons rather than fixed but because I already have an EOTech EXPS2-0 with a 7mm riser built in, I would have a lower 1/3 co-witness rather than the absolute co-witness I would prefer with flip up irons.
So basically to get everything I want, I would have to grind down the FSB, buy a flip up BUIS, get rid of my EOTech, and buy a new one without the 7mm riser.
I also wouldn't want to grind down the FSB because I would need to buy a new front BUIS. I prefer flip up irons rather than fixed but because I already have an EOTech EXPS2-0 with a 7mm riser built in, I would have a lower 1/3 co-witness rather than the absolute co-witness I would prefer with flip up irons.
So basically to get everything I want, I would have to grind down the FSB, buy a flip up BUIS, get rid of my EOTech, and buy a new one without the 7mm riser.
Oh, don't get me wrong, if you want a fixed FSB, that's great. I thought you were wanting a LPGB under a rail.
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 13:20
Oh, don't get me wrong, if you want a fixed FSB, that's great. I thought you were wanting a LPGB under a rail.
Initially I was leaning towards getting a LPGB until I found out that cutting the FSB would be better. After learning about that I leaned towards getting a rail with the FSP cutout.
I just got back from the local hardware shop and they had a couple FSP's for sale. One looked like it was already low profile or it was cut because it had taper pins. The other wasn't cut yet. Maybe I should pick one of these up instead of cutting my own? I didn't buy either because I wasn't sure if the taper holes would align.
Initially I was leaning towards getting a LPGB until I found out that cutting the FSB would be better. After learning about that I leaned towards getting a rail with the FSP cutout.
I just got back from the local hardware shop and they had a couple FSP's for sale. One looked like it was already low profile or it was cut because it had taper pins. The other wasn't cut yet. Maybe I should pick one of these up instead of cutting my own? I didn't buy either because I wasn't sure if the taper holes would align.
You're a wise man. If they did align, you should drive right back out and buy a lottery ticket. FSB's are drilled uniquely to each barrel and then reamed for the taper pins, so they are generally not interchangeable.
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 14:26
You're a wise man. If they did align, you should drive right back out and buy a lottery ticket. FSB's are drilled uniquely to each barrel and then reamed for the taper pins, so they are generally not interchangeable.
Measured my taper pins with a caliper and went back down to the shop and they aligned. I purchased the factory made low profile gas block with taper pin holes so I wouldn't have to do any cutting.
ColtM4Carbine
05-15-13, 14:29
If all goes well, I will probably get a midlength rail or midlength extended rail instead of the full length rail and mount the Troy BUIS.
Here's my 6920 with Omega X, Magpul AFG-1, and Surefire X300 light. My thumb rests right next to the momentary-on switch (couldn't position the AFG-2 as far forward), it's perfectly ambi, and puts the light at the ideal 12 o'clock spot.
If you're set on keeping the FSB, I would go w/the Centurion C4.
I think it's equally as strong as a DD rail, and much easier to install.
Obscenejesster
05-16-13, 07:00
If you're set on keeping the FSB, I would go w/the Centurion C4.
I think it's equally as strong as a DD rail, and much easier to install.
I second this. Centurion rails are on the same level as DD. Their C4 rails are super easy to install and utilize the stock barrel nut. You just have to remove the handguard cap and delta ring and then you're good to go. Also, there rails that extend past the FSB are just bad ass looking.
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