Muzzle Loaders

[rjacobs]

I wasnt sure where to put this, so here it is. I dont know shit about muzzle loaders. I shot a couple of them while I was in college and besides clearing out the range from the damn smoke, I dont remember much about them. I also know that muzzle loader season for deer in Missouri is about 2 weeks long and takes place after regular rifle season(or maybe before, I dont know).

Anybody into muzzle loaders?

On my semi monthly gun shop scouring for reloading supplies I keep running into a plethora of muzzle loading powders, primers, and bullets for CHEAP(at least compared to centerfire pistol and rifle stuff). It kind of has me wanting to pick one up just to jack around with seeing as its hard to find center fire components lately and the ones that I do find the prices are jacked up(primers especially).

So teach me about muzzle loaders.

Are there muzzle loader pistols?

Can you put a can on a muzzle loader and suppress it? I think though that this would be a pain in the ass.

Can you do an SBR muzzle loader and would it require a tax stamp? This question is only semi serious.

Is a breach loader still considered a "muzzle loader" or is it then a musket or something else?

What would be a good one to buy?

[citizensoldier16]

So teach me about muzzle loaders.

Are there muzzle loader pistols?
Yes, there are.
Can you put a can on a muzzle loader and suppress it? I think though that this would be a pain in the ass.
Never heard of this....sounds pretty dangerous to me. You obviously load from the muzzle, so removing the can every time to load would be a pain in the ass
Can you do an SBR muzzle loader and would it require a tax stamp? This question is only semi serious.
An SBR is an SBR. Period.
Is a breach loader still considered a "muzzle loader" or is it then a musket or something else?
A breech loader is a single shot rifle, not a muzzleloader.
What would be a good one to buy?
Thompson Center. I have one in .50 to extend my deer season. It's accurate out to about 100 yards with a scope.

[davidz71]

I bought a Thompson Center Omega 50 cal. stainless/camo rifle with Nikon muzzleloader scope on it. Third day into the season two years ago I had a nice 10 point buck walk up within 40 yards of my stand. I was using Barnes 250 grain TMZ copper bullets with 100 grains of American Pioneer powder. The bullet totally lacerated the liver as it went down through the buck. The liver looked like it had been hit with an 8 pointed broadhead arrow that was at least 10 inches across. Exit hole low in the chest was 2" in diameter. This sure was a step up from a TC 54 cal. Renegade with open sights and a patched round ball.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

You could do everything you have asked about but why? Your taking a gun you don't even need a NICS check for and making in an NFA item....um no.

Also I don't mean to infer that this could be done with black powder etc. but with one of the smokeless models Savage sells that use pistol powder.

[Deputy Dan]

Asking for folks to teach you about muzzleloaders in a forum is a tall order.

You are going to have to decide modern or traditional. Muzzle loader or breach loader? Long arm or hand gun? Smooth bore or rifle? Flint or percussion? Round ball or conical? ...and on and on. With conicals/minie you will want to size them .001 or .002 under bore size for best accuracy in a rifle.

A musket is a smoothbore... with a patched round ball very good accuracy can be had to 75-100 yds. I shoot a Model 1816 Nippes contract musket and hold the chest of a Transtar II target at 75 yds with only a blade front sight... they don't have rear sights..
http://www.fototime.com/2C81C1B722B7032/standard.jpg

You will need to be consistent with your seating pressure for best accuracy. You can actually feel the powder being crushed through the rod if you use a lot of pressure.

Rifles are a lot of fun too. Shooting percussion is almost as reliable as cartridge, and I like the flint challenge.

My fav flint is a Mike Brooks assembled M1792/94 contract rifle in .49 caliber, it is a replica of the Lewis and Clark rifle.

http://www.fototime.com/A90398E69C1DF7A/standard.jpg

Get yourself a good book on black powder shooting, read it and then decide which direction you would like to go.

[CRAMBONE]

Not a hundred percent guys but, I do believe NFA and other firearm regs have nothing to do with muzzle loaders. If you google or check out a Cabelas magazine they sell black powder revolvers with an attachable stock (think artillery Luger).

[CRAMBONE]

And I think a suppressor on a actual muzzle loader would be a no go for the already stated reasons and because of powder residue. Might work on a ceaseless breech loader like an early Sharps but then you would still have the powder residue issue. Black powder is VERY dirty.

[Deputy Dan]

Goex is very dirty... Swiss Powder produces much less fouling.

[CRAMBONE]

Goex is very dirty... Swiss Powder produces much less fouling.

Enough less fouling for regar suppressor use?

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

smokeless mz only option

[Deputy Dan]

smokeless mz only option

Absolutely!

Supressing a BP firearm is not an idea worth pursuing. I would be concerned with a patch or sabot getting stuck in the baffles. Also, I would be casting my own to insure I was throwing a bullet without voids, etc.

If you are going to shoot Black Powder, Swiss produces far less fouling and will allow more shots to be fired without having to clean fouling.

BP rifles have a far quiter report than a modern smokeless rifle, making the whole thing not worth the effort. ETA: Unless you are shooting a "squirrel rifle" one will have an issue finding a suppressor to fit... common calibers are .50, .54 and up. Haven't priced out .50 cal suppressors but I bet they aren't cheap!

[tpd223]

I wanted to get into black powder without really getting "into" black powder, if you get what I mean. I just wanted to be able to hunt the black powder season.

Anyway, I bought a Triumph Omega that uses the shotgun primers to set off the powder, used the 777 powder pellets and the Hornady sabots using the 45cal 250 and 300gr bullets to see what shot best from my gun.
I mounted one of the Bushnell Rainguard 3X9 scopes, shot enough to zero and get a feel for the gun and went hunting.

I took a very large doe with a single shot using a 300gr bullet. I had read a bunch of various BS on the intardwebs ref these bullets don't expand, they do expand but under penetrate, etc. That shot was very, very effective and hit exactly where I wanted it to.

I'll be going out again this year with that gun.

[rjacobs]

I was halfway joking about the SBR and the suppressor.

But I really would like to get a muzzle loader. The T/C ones look interesting. The Encore in particular. I believe the Encore requires a 4473, which doesnt really bother me, as it seems to be a much more versatile gun.

Lots of research to do.

[RWBlue]

First check your regs. Some states are Flinklock or have other interesting requirements.

Second, I got into BP. I have an encore. It might be the right ticket for you. You can get a GREAT trigger job done on it. It can be a BP pistol or rifle. It can shoot lots of regular cartridges.

The down side: There are other brands that cost less. It is not a smokeless gun. I don't see any reason why something like trailboss couldn't be used, but you would be 100% off book and into no mans land. I may try this, but I have to be some place where I could work up the experiment slowly.

There are other options that I consider more fun for the range, but the inline scoped rifle is the BEST for hunting when you want to come home with something.

[rjacobs]

Anybody have any experience with the CVA muzzle loaders? They look exactly like the T/C Encore's, but they dont seem to offer the barrel selection like the T/C does. The Encore really looks like a tremendously versatile gun.

Is the Encore Pro Hunter really better than a normal Encore? Looks like it just has a slightly better stock system that absorbs recoil a bit better.

[1859sharps]

So teach me about muzzle loaders.

Are there muzzle loader pistols?
Yes, there are.

From a legal standpoint, some black powder revolvers count as "muzzle loaders" at the federal level. As long at they do not used fixed ammunition at time of manufacture and retail sale, a cap and ball revolver is legally (at the federal level, state and local may differ) no different than a actual muzzle loader.

But yes, there are single shot muzzle loader pistols.



Can you do an SBR muzzle loader and would it require a tax stamp? This question is only semi serious.
An SBR is an SBR. Period.

Actually not true at the federal level. state and local may differ so double check your state and local laws.

Even a produced 5 minute ago blackpower firearm that is identical to it's pre 1898 form is generally exempt from the 1934, 1968, 1986 and so on federal gun laws. Even in California, they are pretty much unregulated.



Is a breach loader still considered a "muzzle loader" or is it then a musket or something else?
A breech loader is a single shot rifle, not a muzzle loader.

yes, no, maybe, it depends on the context.

From a buy/selling standpoint, "muzzle loader" can be a generic term. same with black power firearms.

From a legal standpoint (again at the federal level) if the gun in question conforms to the pre 1898 (including replicas) they are "one in the same". buying a Hawkins muzzle loader is no different then buying a 1859Sharps breach loader.

from a hunting stand point you NEED to be clear on the difference. Generally speaking if there is a "black powder/muzzle loader" only season, they mean "front stuffer" only. Even though the 1859Sharps for example is a 1898 exempt rifle, and is black powder only, it would fall under modern rifle rules for hunting in most situations. meaning you can't use it in a black powder only season.

musket is just another name for muzzle loader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket



What would be a good one to buy?
Thompson Center. I have one in .50 to extend my deer season. It's accurate out to about 100 yards with a scope.

that all depends on what your interested in, what you would use it for etc.

If you like military type black powder rifles, and have an interest in the Civil War era for example, pedersoli is a very good option.

If you want breach loaders, say sharps for example. Shiloh is hands down the best, and Pedersoli gives a very, very good close second.

Thompson center has a VERY good, but not strictly historically accurate Hawkins type rifle.

There are a few modern designed muzzle loaders, so if your just into the muzzle loader type, but not the historical aspect you could take a peak at those. I am not overly interested in the modern designs so I am not up on them.

pick your self up a Dixie Gun Works and/or Cabela catalog. Those are probably two of your easiest sources to get you started.

[rjacobs]

Thanks 1859Sharps.

Yea not really interested in the historic avenue of muzzle loaders, mainly looking for something to have fun with when center fire stuff dries up as well as to extend dear season another 2 weeks(I think its 2 more weeks here in Missouri). Like I said I saw a metric shit load(and have for the past couple months, as well as in the 08 panic) of 209 primers, black powder of various kinds and all kinds of muzzle loader projectiles. I hate to not be able to shoot anything for fear of using up my stash of center fire stuff.

[Roklok]

Anything you would ever want to know about muzzleloaders can be found on this forum. People there are very helpful.


www.americanlongrifles.org

[1859sharps]

with the caveat that I am not really into modern muzzle loaders, and so am not up on who is a quality manufacture, good customer service etc here are some links to get you started at least in terms of giving you an idea of what is out there.

TC and Knight have good reputations in the past, not "in the know" for what their current reputations are.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/muzzleloaders.php
http://www.knightrifles.com/

Cabela's often has a good selection as well http://www.cabelas.com

[SkiDevil]

http://nmlra.org/

http://training.nra.org/

Check with your local gun clubs and shooting ranges because there is a good chance that there is a NRA certified muzzle loader instructor in your area teaching basic classes.

I agree with others in that muzzle loader rifles are very underrated in their effectiveness.

I have also noticed that on the West Coast there are plenty of muzzle loaders, smokeless powder, and other accessories available for purchase.