View Full Version : Clear and smoke colored magazines.
I have discussed this topic off line with several board members and I am still trying to nail it down. I have seen the Magpul Tmags in person as well as having read several very positive reviews about Lancer's magazines. I am pleased that companies like Magpul and Lancer have designed products that address one of the weakest links in the AR15/M16, the magazine. However, when it comes to the clear and smoke magazines, I have always had the nagging question in my mind....WHY?
Years before these improved magazines were created, I had a significant amount of trigger time on Steyr AUGs as well as a Sig 550, both of which had smoke colored magazines. Hell, even my high capacity magazines for my Ruger 10-22 are smoke colored. I can honestly say that a no point did I make use of the translucent property of these magazines to manage my ammunition, be it on the range or in training.
I'm not debating their market appeal, because obviously they exist. And in keeping with my friend Hawkeye's philosophy on the word "need," if anyone reading this post simply WANTS to own these magazines, buy as many as you want and go forth and prosper my friend. I am simply asking if I am missing a viable tactical application here, or is the "cool" factor what drives the demand?
I am simply asking if I am missing a viable tactical application here, or is the "cool" factor what drives the demand?
I too have been asking the same questions for quite some time now, and this is something I am interested in the answer to as well.
militarymoron
03-31-08, 09:23
for me, the answer is the most obvious one - as a visual check of remaining rounds. it's more convenient (and accurate) than removing the mag and feeling the weight or looking down inside to guess how many i have left.
being an average joe civvie, i don't know about tactical applications, but my use would be on the range while running drills. i'll know the round count needed for the next drill, so i'll check to see if i have enough to complete it. if not, i'll change out to a new mag. it's purely for convenience - to use as much ammo in each mag before switching out.
why not just run the mag dry? 'cause right before the drill, someone's usually yelling 'reload if necessary/make ready etc', and if you run dry, you didn't 'make ready'...
again, this is purely for convenience for a specific purpose on the range. as for coolness - i don't think they look any cooler, so that's not the reason i'd have them.
I've never seen the need either.
And like I've said before.... they're a fashion NO NO!
Who's to say if these gain in popularity, that training protocol won't start including a visual check on your mag capacity? The reason you haven't seen that to date is because there was no way to do so. Now that technology has advanced to the point that you can, perhaps instructors will begin teaching "to check".
But I am curious for how long will they allow a visual check to be made, i.e., how scratch-proof they are. At some point, if they get beat up and scratched to hell and back, will you be able to see what's on the other side. The more I think about it, maybe Magpul's 1st generation polymer mag, with the side window, is sufficient for this purpose.
MM, that is one reason that I have discussed/pondered with a couple of others. For me though, and each to his own mind you, I like not knowing how many rounds are in my mags (unless its a drill calling for a specific amount of course). This makes things as realistic as possible, and forces me to do mag changes at unexpected times, under a little stress. If I made sure I had a full (or fairly full) mag for the beginning of each drill, then I feel like I am depriving myself of good training opportunities via mag changes. I wont have the luxury of looking down and trying to determine how many rounds are left in my mag in a real fight.
One thing I wonder about, is if SOME people, will become so used to looking at their mags in a range/training environment, that they'll end up doing it in a fight. :confused:
LancerSystems
03-31-08, 10:01
The L5 exists because users asked for a new magazine that would allow them to visually see how many rounds they had. We included the hardened steel feed lips to ensure reliable operation.
This magazine was developed for users of the aluminum magazine who wanted to quickly see how many rounds they had and/or wanted a magazine with more robust feed lips
We have received very positive feedback from Law Enforcement / Security operators, they like the fact they can see the rounds.
militarymoron
03-31-08, 10:29
hawkeye, i hear what you're saying. however, the drills i'm referring to (as i view them) are for honing shooting skills, not tactics. but i completely understand wanting to hone as many skills (reloading etc) during the same drill as possible.
most drills by definition aren't realistic - you're standing in a row with a dozen other guys 10 yds from the target waiting for commands from the rangemaster telling you what to do with no one shooting back. one might ask the question - how would someone perform in a fight without someone telling them what to do next? 'two rounds, COM!' 'failure drill!' etc... (i'm just kidding - kinda). of course, there are other drills (movement, team drills) where you incorporate and apply what you've practiced in the more basic ones, which will entail reloading, ammo management etc.
i used to shoot to empty anyways before changing mags (then i usually ended up transitioning to a pistol if that was the case instead of reloading), but now i treat the pause between each string of shots as a 'lull in action' - which would be the time you decide to do a tac reload (or not). i do think it's important to be aware of how many rounds (ballpark) you have, if you have the chance to check, in a real fight, and not be surprised at the wrong moment.
knowing how many rounds you have left (5 or 15) could help determine whether you keep or change the mag.
as i mentioned before, for me, it's purely for convenience for specific drills/course of fire, simply because in a fight, there's no course of fire or known round count.
most drills by definition aren't realistic
Very true.
I look at them as another choice and choices are good.:D
hawkeye, i hear what you're saying. however, the drills i'm referring to (as i view them) are for honing shooting skills, not tactics. but i completely understand wanting to hone as many skills (reloading etc) during the same drill as possible.
most drills by definition aren't realistic - you're standing in a row with a dozen other guys 10 yds from the target waiting for commands from the rangemaster telling you what to do with no one shooting back. one might ask the question - how would someone perform in a fight without someone telling them what to do next? 'two rounds, COM!' 'failure drill!' etc... (i'm just kidding - kinda). of course, there are other drills (movement, team drills) where you incorporate and apply what you've practiced in the more basic ones, which will entail reloading, ammo management etc.
i used to shoot to empty anyways before changing mags (then i usually ended up transitioning to a pistol if that was the case instead of reloading), but now i treat the pause between each string of shots as a 'lull in action' - which would be the time you decide to do a tac reload (or not). i do think it's important to be aware of how many rounds (ballpark) you have, if you have the chance to check, in a real fight, and not be surprised at the wrong moment.
knowing how many rounds you have left (5 or 15) could help determine whether you keep or change the mag.
as i mentioned before, for me, it's purely for convenience for specific drills/course of fire, simply because in a fight, there's no course of fire or known round count.
I'm tracking with you :) . I agree, you can only do so much on a one way range regarding "realism". It comes down to the type of drills one runs I guess. With the couple of people I shoot/train the most often with, we do very few set round count drills, outside of initial marksmanship/warmup drills. Most are NSR's & TED's and/or on reactive targets. So I really dont know how many rounds I'll have to fire. I guess I just dont see any time that I personally would be looking at the mag to determine how many rounds are in it in a fight.
militarymoron
03-31-08, 11:42
brings to mind the classic quote...
"Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself.
with a translucent mag, no guessing. :D
brings to mind the classic quote...
"Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself.
with a translucent mag, no guessing. :D
Unless of course the remaining rounds are covered by the magwell.
And at that point, if I'm going to pull the mag to check, I'm going to slap a fresh one in. ;)
However, when it comes to the clear and smoke magazines, I have always had the nagging question in my mind....WHY?
Sim work.
militarymoron
03-31-08, 12:40
Unless of course the remaining rounds are covered by the magwell.
And at that point, if I'm going to pull the mag to check, I'm going to slap a fresh one in. ;)
yes, exactly. if you can't see rounds, you know it's time to reload (or at least you get a heads up).
Before this conversation gets too serious, I'll add they look good in pictures..... :D
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%20II/IMG_0737%20A%201028%20Stick.jpg
While in battle we switch at every break or extra second. when we run out of full mags we grab the used ones and judge them by weight. Clear ones would help speed this process up and could save lives.
Jay Cunningham
03-31-08, 13:06
Sim work.
Exactly - simunitions. I happen to like them in a training environment. I'm not sure that I see a disadvantage in real world applications, as long as the mag itself holds up.
I got used to these with clear 5.56mm AK magazines.
yes, exactly. if you can't see rounds, you know it's time to reload (or at least you get a heads up).
I'll do some experiementation on the range at night and indoors with the mags I have an see how well it works out in that environment.
variablebinary
03-31-08, 13:17
Why not a clear mag is a better question...
If you're a person that feels no need to do visual ammo checks, then don’t, a clear mag functions the same way as a USGI mag
If you a person can find a use for visual checks, then the option is there, but not mandatory
I don’t think a clear mag automatically makes a person susceptible to getting shot in the head because they've lost situational awareness due to a visual ammo check.
Like anything else, it’s all in the training, but more options are always better than less, and I can think of a dozen scenerios where easy visual ammo checks would come in handy.
Sim work.
I have these provided to me for that purpose:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/ChrisV196/Sim20mag201.jpg
Why not a clear mag is a better question...
If you're a person that feels no need to do visual ammo checks, then don’t, a clear mag functions the same way as a USGI mag
If you a person can find a use for visual checks, then the option is there, but not mandatory
I don’t think a clear mag automatically makes a person susceptible to getting shot in the head because they've lost situational awareness due to a visual ammo check.
Like anything else, it’s all in the training, but more options are always better than less, and I can think of a dozen scenerios where easy visual ammo checks would come in handy.
Some good points!
Why not a clear mag is a better question...
Because I don't consider the currently available ones for the AR15 platform proven yet.
I don’t think a clear mag automatically makes a person susceptible to getting shot in the head because they've lost situational awareness due to a visual ammo check.
Where did THAT come from?
Like anything else, it’s all in the training, but more options are always better than less, and I can think of a dozen scenerios where easy visual ammo checks would come in handy.
All of which are just as easily solved with a fresh magazine.
The be all end all for me is, if I dont think I have enough ammo in my magazine to carry on the fight, Im reloading.
militarymoron
03-31-08, 13:42
I'll do some experiementation on the range at night and indoors with the mags I have an see how well it works out in that environment.
LOL - anxiously awaiting results :D
variablebinary
03-31-08, 13:46
Because I don't consider the currently available ones for the AR15 platform proven yet.
Where did THAT come from?
All of which are just as easily solved with a fresh magazine.
The be all end all for me is, if I dont think I have enough ammo in my magazine to carry on the fight, Im reloading.
Was proven the question, or the value and/or need for a clear mag?
Personally not everything is solved with fresh mags because sometimes there arent fresh mags. During 2 mans we practice tactical reloads and share dump pouches when vests are empty and it would be nice to know if am picking up a mag with 2 rounds or 10 rather than praying I have enough ammo to finish the fight with a shoulder fired weapon (AKA, how far from clearing leather am I)
Obviously if clear mags are prone to breakage then its a no brainer.
Personally not everything is solved with fresh mags because sometimes there arent fresh mags. During 2 mans we share dump pouches when vests are empty and it would be nice to know if am picking up a mag with 2 rounds or 10 rather than praying I have enough ammo to finish the fight with a shoulder fired weapon (AKA, how far from clearing leather am I)
Valid point in that scenario. I'll take that as a mark in favor of translucent magazines, with the understanding that it's not a situation I'M likely to find myself in.
Of course on second thought that also presupposes that your all of your cohorts also have clear magazines... ;)
LOL - anxiously awaiting results :D
If it gets to the point where I'm tempted to shine a flashlight on my magazine, I'll save a nut-punch up for you. :cool:
Jay Cunningham
03-31-08, 14:07
If it gets to the point where I'm tempted to shine a flashlight on my magazine, I'll save a nut-punch up for you. :cool:
To be fair, there's almost always going to be enough ambient light that you'll be able to see brass through a smoke/clear mag. And yes, I have shot in pitch-black conditions.
militarymoron
03-31-08, 14:18
putting on a protective cup as i type...:p
joking aside - the original question is a valid one, and my personal reason (convenience on a range) is obviously not the main reason for the existance translucent mags. they've been around more in europe than over here, so does anyone know how the training/doctrine in europe differs that explains why the AUG, G36, sig 550 series etc all have translucent mags and we in the U.S. don't generally use them?
MM, that is one reason that I have discussed/pondered with a couple of others. For me though, and each to his own mind you, I like not knowing how many rounds are in my mags (unless its a drill calling for a specific amount of course). This makes things as realistic as possible, and forces me to do mag changes at unexpected times, under a little stress. If I made sure I had a full (or fairly full) mag for the beginning of each drill, then I feel like I am depriving myself of good training opportunities via mag changes. I wont have the luxury of looking down and trying to determine how many rounds are left in my mag in a real fight.
One thing I wonder about, is if SOME people, will become so used to looking at their mags in a range/training environment, that they'll end up doing it in a fight. :confused:
I agree. Unless the course calls for a specific round count, I'd rather be surprised with the need for a reload.
That said, I think the mags are purely cool and I want some. If I had the misfourtune of having to carry my weapon into harms way, I'd bring my non-windowed P-Mags anyday.
Ok I will throw my thinking in on this,What if you are holding a POW or you have a Bad guy .The thing that gets me is that they can see your Mag too.what if it's a group of people and you are giving them a round count :confused: I am pretty sure i can swap mags if I run out.I feel I dont want to give anyone a view of whats in my mag .when the weapon stops, load a new mag.to each his own ,but in my eyes it is just plain silly.But they do have the "Cool factor " like stickman said:D But i will not own any
LancerSystems
04-01-08, 06:18
I have these provided to me for that purpose:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/ChrisV196/Sim20mag201.jpg
Do you have a picture of their new training mags for the FX and Secruiblank they are starting to field?
Greg
www.lancer-systems.com/L5.html
Do you have a picture of their new training mags for the FX and Secruiblank they are starting to field?
Greg
www.lancer-systems.com/L5.html
That I don't.
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