View Full Version : Converting from .40cal to 9mm
Ok... yes I know the title seems a little blasphemous, but hear me out.
I love my Kimber TLErl2 .45..... ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT. I lover Kimber so much I also bought the Kimber Mountain Ascent .308 rifle for $2000ish. That is how much I love the Kimber world.
However, on a DAILY basis I carry a Glock 27 or a Glock 23 as it works for me and my duty gun is a Glock22.
In my night stand I have always had my Glock 23 ready to rock and roll. I am very used to the 40 cal as I am a cop and we carry the Glock 22s.....
SO HERE IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING. I bought my wife a Glock 26 a few months ago and took her to the range. Almost right away, I fell in love with the speed and accuracy I could shoot with her 26. So today, I went ahead and mixed things up. I purchased a Glock 17. Before we can carry any new weapon we have to go to the department to qualify. Well, I ran up to my Dept, met with the range instructor and started shooting the Glock 17. I am 100 times more in love with it than I am with my duty Glock 22. I was able to shoot INSANELY fast and remain accurate. When I took my time but still shot at a steady pace I was able to put bullet hole in bullet hole without even attempting to "focus".
From reading FBI statistics (yes I know I am about to open a can of worms), the correct "duty round" for a 9mm is not much worse than a 40cal. Guess what, and it allows for a few extra rounds in the magazine. I NEVER thought I would fall in love with a 9mm. WOW, was I wrong. My next purchase is the Glock 19 as soon as they get some Blue Label Specials in at the gun store.
In my mindset after reading an article the other day is the following:
On a traffic stop if a guy all of a sudden jumps out and starts shooting. They say 3 hits out of a 15 round magazine is "pretty good" if you can even manage to fire back. Well hell, now I can carry 3 more rounds with less recoil. From what I've read you may be able to now hit this guy 6 times out of a 17 round mag. The more rounds on target the better. Granted, it would be a goal to hit 16 out of 16 or 18 out of 18 etc. but lets be realistic.
Anyway...... I am starting to fall in love with the 9mm yet again. I know it's crazy....
Thoughts?
Hogsgunwild
05-17-13, 23:59
Some of my favorite guns are my .45 ACPs. I carry 9MM because it just makes more sense for the reasons that you mentioned and more.
Faster follow-up shots and more chances between reloads. If you can work head shots in, the 9MM is not much different from the other calibers in it's effectiveness. That would be a huge benefit if you were up against someone in body armor. Lighter weight, cheaper ammo, it's all good.
I spent a lot of time with the .40 S&W and in hindsight, considering that I tend to like midsize and smaller guns, I would have been better served by using the 9MM all along.
On a traffic stop if a guy all of a sudden jumps out and starts shooting. They say 3 hits out of a 15 round magazine is "pretty good" if you can even manage to fire back. Well hell, now I can carry 3 more rounds with less recoil. From what I've read you may be able to now hit this guy 6 times out of a 17 round mag. The more rounds on target the better. Granted, it would be a goal to hit 16 out of 16 or 18 out of 18 etc. but lets be realistic.
Generally those numbers are crap. It all depends on your level of training, and discipline under fire as to how many rounds it takes to end the fight. "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final". At close range, the only force multiplier in a handgun fight is where your bullets are going. Unless you get a solid central nervous system hit, or hit a highly vascular region of the body for rapid bleed out.........most likely both you and the bad guy are going to pelt each other with bullets for a while. Larger calibers are good for breaking large bones and making bigger bleed-out holes which can be an advantage, but at 7-15yrds that may or may not be as important. That being said, I still prefer using the larger caliber. ;)
I don't think its crazy at all. I have never been a fan of .40S&W. I got rid of my 40s when I realized how much better I shot 9 and what a minor difference there was in performance between the two. If I want a bigger caliber then I will step up to a .45.
LMT Shooter
05-18-13, 01:48
The caliber controversy will never die. There are various opinions, but shot placement is far more important than any other factor. If you feel better with a 9mm, you are better served with a 9mm, all other things being equal.
At this point, the only reason I still own a .40S&W is for times when you just can't buy 9mm, but .40S&W is sitting on the shelves.
What can I say... It happens :(
I had the same experience. I used to own several .40 caliber pistols, and bought into the idea (out of sheer ignorance and marketing) that the 9mm was inferior to the S&W cartridge. Then, I rented a 9mm pistol and shot it FAR better. Fell in love with it on the spot. Sold all my .40's within six months and never looked back. Now my pistols are all 9mm and .45 ACP. A buddy of mine described the .40 once, and his words just made sense to me. He said, "It just feels like the wheels are coming off..."
The only reason I own any .40 pistols is because my duty weapons is .40 therefore I ocassionally acquire free rounds. Other than that I will take 9mm exactly for the reasons you stated (not to mention shooting the 9mm is cheaper) I would much rather have the extra rounds and faster follow up shots with the 9.
I also own a .40 (M&P) since I got a killer deal on 500rds of 180gr ranger bonded. However, I plan on getting a 9mm conversion barrel - best of both worlds.
Taking time to read around the terminal ballistics forum should kill any fears of using 9mm... all things equal, id take it every time. Hell, Doc carries a 9, that should tell you something ;)
Psalms144.1
05-18-13, 14:59
I have the option of a .40 or 9mm, with a STRONG influence from the "leadership" of my agency to stick with the "standard" .40.
I carry only 9mm - for all of the reasons you mentioned. In my P30, P2000, or G19, it is everything I could ask for, and nothing I don't need.
Regards,
Kevin
I also own a .40 (M&P) since I got a killer deal on 500rds of 180gr ranger bonded. However, I plan on getting a 9mm conversion barrel - best of both worlds.
Taking time to read around the terminal ballistics forum should kill any fears of using 9mm... all things equal, id take it every time. Hell, Doc carries a 9, that should tell you something ;)
It entirely depends on your carry needs. Doc has mentioned that if he were ever to return to uniformed patrol, he would likely carry a M&P .40 as the .40S&W still maintains the highest degree of consistently good performance through auto material.
To expand on this thinking, how often are you in and around vehicles? Any chance that you could end up in a shooting in or around vehicles? To quote Massad Ayoob......"what's good for law enforcement, is also good for the public".
to start with i don't want to hijack this thread, but faced with trading in a p22 (my girl's) and wanting an hk9sc/le. I love my .45uspc/le and have never owned a glock(have put many rounds through friends guns). still not sold on glock with personal use. having to drop down from .45 to 9 i don't feel too bothered. it has been many years ( my last 9 was a mac11 which i regret selling these days). is this a fair trade off?
But why do people carry .45 for defense? Even fewer rounds and not much more energy than a 40.
But why do people carry .45 for defense? Even fewer rounds and not much more energy than a 40.
Increasing the size of the hole that the bullet makes is the only proven method for improving terminal effects. The kinetic energy levels that a handgun cartridge makes are so small, that they are virtually indistiguishable from one another. Here's a video to help you understand the concepts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXwPtP-KDNk
The .45acp is a really nice cartridge for a number of reasons. Although its recoil is heavy, it doesn't feel uncomfortable and many shooters find it easy to shoot well. Also, it is a VERY accurate cartridge in of itself. I know a few 1911 shooters that will shoot bowling pins all day long at 100 yrds. For some shooters depending on the platform, they can hit a small target(similar in size to a brain or spine column hit) more quickly with fewer shots fired than with a comparable 9mm alternative. Remember, the only force multiplier in a handgun fight is how accurate you are in hitting something important like the CNS or major vascular system, not how many rounds you can quickly put on a target. In most OIS that involve a lot of shots fired, the perp will not even notice that you are filling him full of lead unless you hit something important via a good(or lucky) shot. I can list off a half dozen police shootings in the last 5 years where the perp took more than 7 rounds to their torso and kept fighting.......only to be stopped by the officer once he committed to taking carefully aimed head shot or well placed torso shot. In both cases, the officer usually came to the realization that rapid fire to the COM wasn't working, and that he needed to slow down and make a good shot. Lastly, the .45 makes the largest holes of all the "manageable" handgun calibers. So......it is a very manageable caliber to shoot(I'd say more comfortable than the .40), highly accurate, and makes the biggest holes......therefore it's very appealing for many.
David chose to use a slingshot against Goliath. Its all about what youre comfortable using and shot placement.
Ok... yes I know the title seems a little blasphemous, but hear me out.
Thoughts?
I'd recommend spending a little more time searching and reading M4C before posting on M4C. You asked. ;)
But why do people carry .45 for defense? Even fewer rounds and not much more energy than a 40.
It makes bigger holes. The end.
30 cal slut
05-22-13, 09:05
I never liked the recoil on a .40 S&W. It always felt "fat" to me, regardless of the platform (Glock or 1911).
If the 9mm can do the job with good shot placement and ammo selection, and you can shoot it better than .40 S&W or .45 ACP, then why not?
Recent legislation in some states (such as NY and CT) has prompted some civilians to evaluate switching from 9 mm to .40 S&W or .45 ACP. If they are allowed to carry only 7 rounds (NY) or 10 rounds (CT) in public, then some folks are thinking they might as well carry the biggest round they can.
I think that thinking is somewhat misguided.
I'll paraphrase Ken Hackathorn: "Folks like to shoot the .45 ACP, but they don't shoot it as well as they should."
Every round that goes downrange has a responsibility attached to it. Be sure you're up to it, IMHO.
30 cal slut
05-22-13, 09:08
As an aside, as a reloader of the 9mm cartridge, I absolutely despise the .40 S&W. :p
II'll paraphrase Ken Hackathorn: "Folks like to shoot the .45 ACP, but they don't shoot it as well as they should."
Every round that goes downrange has a responsibility attached to it. Be sure you're up to it, IMHO.
That is true in many regards. We have a number of officers that use a P220 .45, and most are usually mediocre shooters which I attibute it to not practicing enough. When I question them, the most common excuse I get is that ammo is too expensive. Personally, I find it hard to sympathize with them since I am a dedicated reloader and none of them are willing to make such committments to improve their skill. Although I use a .40 on duty, I find that most .45acp platforms to be absolute tack drivers.........and if it isn't a tack driver for the shooter, then the shooter is the problem.
As an aside, as a reloader of the 9mm cartridge, I absolutely despise the .40 S&W. :p
Just curious as to what problems you experienced. My experiences with reloading 9mm and .40 on a 550 resulted in me selling off my 9mm stuff and sticking with .40 and .45. At least when it came to shooting everything from CP, jacketed, and cast bullets the 9mm was more finicky with point of aim variations than either the .40 or .45. Using a Ransom Rest, I was able to achieve 1" groupings out of a P229 .40 at 25yrds. Tom Givens with Rangemaster is probably one of the most accurate shooters I have seen in years.....and he uses a Glock 35.
There's no knock down power in a 9 miguel miguel. :(
And forget stopping power.
Hunter Rose
05-22-13, 10:02
There's no knock down power in a 9 miguel miguel. :(
And forget stopping power.
Indeed. Hit a man with a .45ACP, even just in the arm or leg, and you are going to put him down NOW...probably blow that appendage clean off...
30 cal slut
05-22-13, 10:10
Just curious as to what problems you experienced. My experiences with reloading 9mm and .40 on a 550 resulted in me selling off my 9mm stuff and sticking with .40 and .45. At least when it came to shooting everything from CP, jacketed, and cast bullets the 9mm was more finicky with point of aim variations than either the .40 or .45. Using a Ransom Rest, I was able to achieve 1" groupings out of a P229 .40 at 25yrds. Tom Givens with Rangemaster is probably one of the most accurate shooters I have seen in years.....and he uses a Glock 35.
the hate comes in the tumbling. you get some .40 S&W cases mixed in with your 9mm, and you get 9mm cases stuck inside the .40 S&W cases. minor stuff, but drives you crazy if you are giving up sleep to load your own. ;)
Indeed. Hit a man with a .45ACP, even just in the arm or leg, and you are going to put him down NOW...probably blow that appendage clean off...
Exactly. And all the exploding appenage chunks will knock him to the ground. It's basic physics, boys.
There's no knock down power in a 9 miguel miguel. :(
And forget stopping power.
I'm glad somebody said it! :p
I moved from .45 ACP to 9mm and a 1911 to a Glock 17. At the same time.
I'd say, 40 really isn't better than 9mm for what it does, as far as recoil being more, less rounds in the gun, more expensive rounds, slower follow up shots, minimal difference ballistically.
9mm all day. I'd go with that or .45 ACP and if you want penetration? Not 10mm, .44 Magnum.
The real value of my Glock 23 has been in the role of a trainer. During the ammunition drought, I've shot .40 almost exclusively. In addition to giving me a second round to be able to work with during the drought, it has gotten me used to controlling a snappier round than the 9mm.
Glock 23 (Gen 3) with 165 grain loads --> Glock 19 (Gen 4) with 147gr Gold Dots
The 19 feels like a squirtgun.
30 cal slut
05-22-13, 15:26
What's really weird is that I just love the way my Glock 20 (10mm) shoots.
I don't shoot it as well as my 17, but then again, I haven't put as much time on the 20 as the 17. :p
What's really weird is that I just love the way my Glock 20 (10mm) shoots.
It's a man stopper.
What's really weird is that I just love the way my Glock 20 (10mm) shoots.
I don't shoot it as well as my 17, but then again, I haven't put as much time on the 20 as the 17. :p
In general, straight walled cases like the .40, 10mm, and .45acp are capable of higher degrees of accuracy than tapered or bottle necked cases. Charges tend to burn more consistent with an even pressure distribution on the back of the bullet. Sometimes it's hard to notice the difference with handgun factory ammo, but that is due to most manufacturers standardizing on a few types of powders, universal seating depths, and tighter than necessary crimps.
The extreme accuracy of the straight walled cartridge was hard to give up when we went to the .30-40 Krag rifle. As demonstrated by the 1879 Sandy Hook test and the .45-70, its hard to beat straight walled case consistency.
http://home.earthlink.net/~sharpsshtr/CritterPhotos/SandyHook/SandyHook.html
Exactly. And all the exploding appenage chunks will knock him to the ground. It's basic physics, boys.
I had someone try to tell me that because .45 was larger than 9mm, it was basic physics that it was superior. I had a nice long reply typed out about how, by his logic, the .45 was clearly superior to the .223, the .308, the 300 blackout, etc, but I decided it wasn't worth it :)
I had someone try to tell me that because .45 was larger than 9mm, it was basic physics that it was superior. I had a nice long reply typed out about how, by his logic, the .45 was clearly superior to the .223, the .308, the 300 blackout, etc, but I decided it wasn't worth it :)
Actually, what you just said really crystalizes the issue. It still may be worth it in helping people think about this scientifically. For a long time i was an advocate of the .40 until i realized that the likelihood of me having to shoot through barriers was not high and compared it to the need to get good hits quickly. IDPA helps to focus this.
Indeed. Hit a man with a .45ACP, even just in the arm or leg, and you are going to put him down NOW...probably blow that appendage clean off... A near miss with the 45ACP is all that is needed to put him down!
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