View Full Version : LEO kills home invader and hostage in NY
Nightmare scenario....
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/19/hofstra-student-killed-by-police-during-break-in/2323831/
Thoughts go out to the families and the officer. That is a heavy burden for him to carry.......
Sorry, but this is pathetic. He killed an innocent woman. End of story. Who cares that he took out a criminal? There's a good chance the hostage would still be alive had the officer not shot.
ETA: meant woman not man
Sorry, but this is pathetic. He killed an innocent man. End of story. Who cares that he took out a criminal? There's a good chance the hostage would still be alive had the officer not shot.
I think it was an innocent woman. But either way.
Just like the shoot out in the street in NYC a year back. A bunch of bystanders hit by LEO fired rounds and none were hit by the assailant.
Truly sad situation. I don't know if I can blame the officer entirely, the major fault lies with who ever let this scumbag out of prison in the first place. Maybe some blame must fall on the officer, no? Did it really require 8 rounds?
And what the **** is up with 8 rounds? The law in NY is 7. That means the officer reloaded and shot one more round. Unless it was one in the chamber and 7 in the mag. Either way, he shot the gun dry. Was that really necessary?
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 10:15
At the LAV Adv Handgun class I took, there was an LE student telling us about how "instructors" would teach recruits at the police academy how to qualify for handgun if missing the target by using Kentucky windage rather than teaching them the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Cops need training, just like everyone else.
Did it really require 8 rounds?
And what the **** is up with 8 rounds? The law in NY is 7. That means the officer reloaded and shot one more round. Unless it was one in the chamber and 7 in the mag. Either way, he shot the gun dry. Was that really necessary?
You serious???
At the LAV Adv Handgun class I took, there was an LE student telling us about how "instructors" would teach recruits at the police academy how to qualify for handgun if missing the target by using Kentucky windage rather than teaching them the fundamentals of marksmanship.
Cops need training, just like everyone else.
Shame we didn't take the same class together...mine was in PA though.
This is super tragic. I've been following the story for a few days...
I couldn't help but think of how it happened in one of the most anti gun counties in the State and how many times I have heard anti gun people say: Things like home invasions don't happen to anyone other then criminals.
In regards to the police officer shooting the woman? I am a little surprised he fired eight rounds, he is going to have to live with his mistake for the rest of his life.
VooDoo6Actual
05-19-13, 10:54
Tragic story.
Bush's fault defense.
Sorry, but this is pathetic. He killed an innocent man. End of story. Who cares that he took out a criminal? There's a good chance the hostage would still be alive had the officer not shot.
So he should have just let the gunman shoot him? And then maybe the woman and the male hiding behind the couch?
How would you have handled it? It is a very difficult situation. What if you came home and it was your wife being held at gunpoint, and the gunman aimed his gun at you? What if you escaped the threat, and you heard a shot, and found out later that the gunman killed your wife before running away?
It is a tragic event, and the police officer will have to live with his mistake for the rest of his life.
i think he was between a rock and a hard place...
indoors with a suspect, who is using the female hostage as a human shield, then the suspect turn the gun on the officer?
whats he supposed to do? just let the guy shoot him?
obviously his marksmanship pretty good,
hit the perp 8 times.
just not good enough.
and the hostage took one to the head.
anyone want to comment about the other circumstances involved?
how about the fact they left their front door wide open and unlocked?
or that there were several people in the home that did nothing to stop the intruder over the course of the half hour invasion?
so many factors that led up to this girl getting killed that were 100% under her control.
i can hardly blame the officer for her death.
Magic_Salad0892
05-19-13, 10:59
I'd have made the same call as the cop. I'd risk hitting the woman as opposed to knowing almost certainly that he'd shoot her anyway.
It's a damn shame what happened, and training would've helped prevent this.
So he should have just let the gunman shoot him? And then maybe the woman and the male hiding behind the couch?
How would you have handled it? It is a very difficult situation. What if you came home and it was your wife being held at gunpoint, and the gunman aimed his gun at you? What if you escaped the threat, and you heard a shot, and found out later that the gunman killed your wife before running away?
It is a tragic event, and the police officer will have to live with his mistake for the rest of his life.
Best post so far.
I'd have made the same call as the cop. I'd risk hitting the woman as opposed to knowing almost certainly that he'd shoot her anyway.
It's a damn shame what happened, and training would've helped prevent this.
I'm not so sure that training would not have helped. An officer armed with a carbine and well trained it its use would have an excellent chance of delivering an immediately incapacitating CNS shot.
Magic_Salad0892
05-19-13, 11:26
I'm not so sure that training would not have helped. An officer armed with a carbine and well trained it its use would have an excellent chance of delivering an immediately incapacitating CNS shot.
I know. I was agreeing with that sentiment. Reading is fundamental. :p
So he should have just let the gunman shoot him? And then maybe the woman and the male hiding behind the couch?
How would you have handled it? It is a very difficult situation. What if you came home and it was your wife being held at gunpoint, and the gunman aimed his gun at you? What if you escaped the threat, and you heard a shot, and found out later that the gunman killed your wife before running away?
It is a tragic event, and the police officer will have to live with his mistake for the rest of his life.
Provided the girl who called the police explained, he knew going into the situation that there was a potential hostage situation. He also knew the guy had threatened to kill the hostages.
Knowing that, who in their right mind would go in without a hostage situation team or SWAT team? This cop decided he could handle the situation and then, when HIS life was threatened (when a gun was pointed at him), put the girls life in danger and ultimately (and directly) killed her.
His actions were inexcusable and blatantly stupid.... And he killed a hostage because of it.
He should have waited for backup. He should have waited for a negotiator. He should have had tactical backup. That's what I would have done/requested and what anyone who cares about the lives of the victims should have done.
He singlehandedly escalated the situation.
My guess is that this guy was an average cop, probably a decent guy, who walked into more than he bargained for, felt threatened (rightfully so), reacted poorly (defaulted to his LE training), and very unfortunately killed an innocent girl. The cops training failed him and he failed the girl by defaulting to his training. Eight fast rounds is not the proper response to a hostage taker.
Bingo. This was my assessment as well.
I know. I was agreeing with that sentiment. Reading is fundamental. :p
I'd like to think that the small screen on my iPhone is the problem rather than my aging eyes...
Voodoo_Man
05-19-13, 13:36
There is so much derp in this thread I cannot even begin to take it seriously.
Tragic loss of life.
LEO's need more training.
" This was a extraordinary situation that was attempted by an ordinary individual.
I feel truly bad for the family (primarily) and the cop. He's probably an okay guy who has to live with this the rest of his life. That doesn't absolve him from responsibility for his actions though.
Not alot of derp there, well said David.
I like how a few of you were in that room w/ him...
Belmont31R
05-19-13, 14:11
I like how a few of you were in that room w/ him...
I like how an innocent girl was killed and all people comment on is how the guy that shot her 'must feel'...
I like how an innocent girl was killed and all people comment on is how the guy that shot her 'must feel'...
Lets not forget the shitbird inititiated the tragedy...yes the parents have to burry their daughter, he's gotta live w/ this his entire life.
Again, some of you so know what to do from behind your computer...please tell me, were you there???
Lets not forget the shitbird inititiated the tragedy...yes the parents have to burry their daughter, he's gotta live w/ this his entire life.
Again, some of you so know what to do from behind your computer...please tell me, were you there???
Were you? Then let's stick to the facts:
1. Bad guy creates hostage situation
2. Untrained cop goes in against common sense, escalates the situation, and kills an innocent girl in the process
Were you? Then let's stick to the facts:
1. Bad guy creates hostage situation
2. Untrained cop goes in against common sense, escalates the situation, and kills an innocent girl in the process
No I wasn't and I'm not trying to come of as a expert on shootings who wasn't there and only read the story via the media...
How in God's name do you know he's untrained...
How do you know anything, again!!!...unless you were there.
indoors with a suspect, who is using the female hostage as a human shield, then the suspect turn the gun on the officer?
whats he supposed to do? just let the guy shoot him?
It's a shame that the hostage didn't realize that when he pointed the gun at the cop she was no longer in the same kind of danger and should grab the gunmans arm so he couldn't point the gun at the cop.
It would have been her best chance of saving herself.
In my unprofessional opinion, he should have retreated. Let him wait it out and then try to negotiate with him.
From the article:
"The woman left for the bank and called 911, according to Azzata.
Minutes later, two police officers arrived at the home and found Jessica running out of the front door and the male guest hiding behind a couch on the first floor, Azzata said.
One of the officers entered the home and encountered Smith holding Rebello in a headlock, gun pointed at her head, coming down the stairs, Azzata said. When Smith pointed the gun at the officer, he began firing, Azzata said"
Why would you even go in there knowing it was a hostage situation? Sounds absolutely reckless and the life of an innocent has been lost because of his actions.
Why would you even go in there knowing it was a hostage situation? Sounds absolutely reckless and the life of an innocent has been lost because of his actions.
What if the guy was in there raping and torturing her? Anything you do can go wrong, including doing nothing.
I like how a few of you were in that room w/ him...
Are police officers no longer required to follow M4C's rules that state you must have 200 posts before posting in GD (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54960)?
What if the guy was in there raping and torturing her? Anything you do can go wrong, including doing nothing.
Are you serious or just trolling?
I'll humor you... first off I think its pretty obvious she wasn't getting raped... and it would have been very obvious if she was.. he's right outside the ****ing apartment.
Secondly, would you rather get raped or get shot in the face and die?
Why is it some people can never let a tragedy be just that? I don't get it.
How in God's name do you know he's untrained?
Because he went into a situation, escalated it singlehandedly, and then shot a girl when HE was threatened. He was an average street cop, not SRT or SWAT. Therefore, he was untrained for the situation.
Are police officers no longer required to follow M4C's rules that state you must have 200 posts before posting in GD (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=54960)?
I'm a grown ass Man having a discussion and trying to interject some common sense here...if its you're crusade, please lock me out.
Didn't we do this dance b4???
Because he went into a situation, escalated it singlehandedly, and then shot a girl when HE was threatened. He was an average street cop, not SRT or SWAT. Therefore, he was untrained for the situation.
You do know LEs are allowed to shoot the bad guy when they feel their life is in danger correct?
Doug rocks by the way..
It's a shame that the hostage didn't realize that when he pointed the gun at the cop she was no longer in the same kind of danger and should grab the gunmans arm so he couldn't point the gun at the cop.
It would have been her best chance of saving herself.
or just drop to the floor and them them have it out.
MountainRaven
05-19-13, 15:18
What if the guy was in there raping and torturing her? Anything you do can go wrong, including doing nothing.
Not directed at you, but carrying on along that line of thinking:
What if the dude was an Islamist (or any other -ist) with a bomb out front, waiting for the first responders and media to show up en masse and then blow as many of them up as possible?
You do know LEs are allowed to shoot the bad guy when they feel their life is in danger correct?
Doug rocks by the way..
So because they're allowed to shoot, that gives them carte Blanche to kill innocent hostages?
This is a classic example of what is wrong with our government. Regular, untrained, everyday people (no disrespect to the good cops who actually know what the heck they're doing, as this doesn't apply to them) are out into positions of authority where they can literally cause death to innocent people. They then make the ridiculous decision to intervene where they are neither qualified nor informed and proceed to permanently wreck the lives of others.
Is this had been in Russia and Spetznatz had killed a hostage in the same manner, we'd be mocking them to no end right now. Instead, this guy gets a pass because he's a good ole boy in blue.
If you read this story and are not outraged, you need to rethink what freedom and liberty really mean to
you, because in the end this is a state-sanctioned homicide.
I'm a grown ass Man having a discussion and trying to interject some common sense here...if its you're crusade, please lock me out.
Didn't we do this dance b4???
I'm trying to inject some common sense as well. It should be common sense that everyone here should be held to the same standard. That standard is 200 posts before being permitted to post in GD as per M4C, not me.
It's not my crusade, it's a legitimate question. Nothing more, nothing less. Is there a set standard that applies to everyone or is there a privileged class that comes with having a badge? Honestly, there's no reason to become defensive.
And I do vaguely remember us having an exchange but I don't think it was related to this. If it was about the same thing then there wasn't a conclusive answer. Otherwise, I wouldn't have asked the same question.
Is this had been in Russia and Spetznatz had killed a hostage in the same manner, we'd be mocking them to no end right now. Instead, this guy gets a pass because he's a good ole boy in blue.
That is always the case. If you dare to comment, criticize or God forbid "MMQB" something where an officer was involved you're automatically labeled "anti-LE" by many cops on this forum, not all obviously.
However, when it's Joe Blow whoever involved in something feel free to kick them around the block and everyone dogpile on them. When it's Joe Blow everything reported in the media doesn't come under the same scrutiny and the apologists are somehow absent. The amount of hypocrisy is overwhelming.
I can get with this but the whole court room will have access to the reports and "expert" witness testimony...not newspaper articles.
Listen, I'm not a stupid Man and not trying to defend every walking cop in this great country of ours...they have to justify every bullet fired or ASP swing but damn, it just eats me to see people who have absolute zero comprehension in police work and handle a gun on their range weekend only try to convict these cops via damn news paper article...
This story brings me back to a known swat operator who to this days chokes up every time he talks about it and lives w/ this demon for not shooting a shitbird fast enough who had a teenage girl on his lap w/ a gun to her head...yep, he tried to talk the guy down and he just shot the girl. Obviously he dispatched the shitbird but the girl was already gone.
You know guys, have at it...I bow out...no clue what I'm talkin about.
The Chief, the forensics guys, the Detectives, the District Attorney, the Grand Jury, the Judge, and the Jury weren't there either but I imagine at least some of them will have to make decisions based off of the evidence they find or are presented with after the fact. I wasn't in Japan in 1945 but I know we dropped two nuclear bombs--- wasn't there though.
The reason we are looking at this case is so that we can learn how to better train, prepare, and avoid tragedies like this in the future.
Would the cop have been better off waiting for back up or a tactical team? Would he have been better off staying at the last point of cover? Would he have been better off shooting the guy at the first opportunity? By hashing out these issues we might prevent a similar tragedy in the future.
The guy screwed up and not acknowledging that doesn't make him less responsible or bring back that girl. Acknowledging it, looking at what could have been done better, and training for the eventuality might prevent another set of parents from this loss though.
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 15:33
Guess I'll say it...... Dave Pennington's LE record is unsurpassable by most. You guys might try and get a clue on who you're arguing with.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 16:14
I'm torn on this and I'll certainly try to keep emotion out of this. First off, I like the quote of an ordinary man in extraordinary circumstances.
I have zero idea of how this played out. Did she move into the line of fire while the officer was putting rounds into a tight group? Did she stay in place while the officer fired wildly at the threat?
My guess is he has zero training in hostage rescue. For those of us even slightly exposed to it or have ever been forced to shoot another human being, we know just how differently these things play out in real life and how complicated something like this can be.
Of all the situations I can imagine in my line of work, however unlikely, this would be the one I'd pray would never happen.
RalphK is a SWAT cop in a large department that happens to have hostage rescue training. While his delivery has that Jersey Shore flair, I do understand the frustration when some (NOT ALL) that have never had to fire a shot at another person, do not carry a firearm for a living, have zero hostage rescue training and do not have access to a full report of what happened start Monday morning quarterbacking a situation that they learned of from CNBC.
If they are in law enforcement, have shot another person, have this type of training or have access to the full story, then of course we all want to hear the opinion.
If I hear about some accountant mismanaging company funds, it's obviously a bad situation. But, I probably won't go giving my opinion on how I would have handled company funds because I'm not a ****ing accountant and have never had even basic training in handling another company's funds. Not my lane.
I don't know the full story of what happened, but it sucked regardless. I hope for the best for all involved. I look forward to hearing more specifics so I can form an opinion based on fact and not media... Which has proven time and time again to post what they think happened before they even have the facts.
Having said all that.... I do have an opinion on this as well. But, I don't want to voice it until I at least know how the shooting itself went down. That will tell us a lot.
I know working with a lot of officers that I'd be nervous if one (basic patrol officer) had to come in and rescue my family. Not an insult, just the reality of department budgets and available training.
madisonsfinest
05-19-13, 16:21
My thoughts exactly
I'm torn on this and I'll certainly try to keep emotion out of this. First off, I like the quote of an ordinary man in extraordinary circumstances.
I have zero idea of how this played out. Did she move into the line of fire while the officer was putting rounds into a tight group? Did she stay in place while the officer fired wildly at the threat?
My guess is he has zero training in hostage rescue. For those of us even slightly exposed to it or have ever been forced to shoot another human being, we know just how differently these things play out in real life and how complicated something like this can be.
Of all the situations I can imagine in my line of work, however unlikely, this would be the one I'd pray would never happen.
RalphK is a SWAT cop in a large department that happens to have hostage rescue training. While his delivery has that Jersey Shore flair, I do understand the frustration when some (NOT ALL) that have never had to fire a shot at another person, do not carry a firearm for a living, have zero hostage rescue training and do not have access to a full report of what happened start Monday morning quarterbacking a situation that they learned of from CNBC.
If they are in law enforcement, have shot another person, have this type of training or have access to the full story, then of course we all want to hear the opinion.
If I hear about some accountant mismanaging company funds, it's obviously a bad situation. But, I probably won't go giving my opinion on how I would have handled company funds because I'm not a ****ing accountant and have never had even basic training in handling another company's funds. Not my lane.
I don't know the full story of what happened, but it sucked regardless. I hope for the best for all involved. I look forward to hearing more specifics so I can form an opinion based on fact and not media... Which has proven time and time again to post what they think happened before they even have the facts.
Having said all that.... I do have an opinion on this as well. But, I don't want to voice it until I at least know how the shooting itself went down. That will tell us a lot.
I know working with a lot of officers that I'd be nervous if one (basic patrol officer) had to come in and rescue my family. Not an insult, just the reality of department budgets and available training.
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 16:22
I think most in this thread are in agreement on LE needing more training. That's meant as a constructive statement.
You serious???
Sort off. Half mocking the stupid law half upset about the officers reaction.
I'm not an LEO, was never military and I am no marksman by any means. However what little I know and what i can imagine is that in this situation the officer had a very small target area as the hostage was being used as a shield. This would require a slower rate of fire with better aim. Shooting 8 rounds as fast as he can when the hostage is in front of the hostage taker is by no means the right thing to do. Not by my estimation.
Yes he felt like his life was threatened, and I don't know if I would make a better decision but a trained professional should have.
It's a tragedy to be sure. But I dont believe that absolving the officer of guilt because it was a "bad decision" is not the right thing to do.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 16:27
I think most in this thread are in agreement on LE needing more training. That's meant as a constructive statement.
Exactly, and in my humble opinion, those are the things we should focus on for now until we have more facts.
I just think when someone that has no experience with any of this type of stuff (not directed at anyone in particular) starts throwing out opinions on what should have been done, it can ruffle feathers of those that do.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 16:30
AlexV, do you know for certain that she was being used as a shield and the officer fired rapidly?
I may have missed something when reading over the story.
For all we know, unless I missed something as I said, she may have been held at arms length to the side and ran into the line of fire. Unlikely, but we just don't know.
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 16:32
I just think when someone that has no experience with any of this type of stuff (not directed at anyone in particular) starts throwing out opinions on what should have been done, it can ruffle feathers of those that do.
This is in no way personal but how many here do have experience with hostage takers in this sort of situation and how many whose feathers are ruffled are just taking the tack that unless you're LE, you cannot dare to discuss these things?
I just hope for thicker skin. It's good in many situations.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 16:41
This is in no way personal but how many here do have experience with hostage takers in this sort of situation and how many whose feathers are ruffled are just taking the tack that unless you're LE, you cannot dare to discuss these things?
I just hope for thicker skin. It's good in many situations.
I know it's not personal brother.
When I said that, any one of those qualifiers I listed would be nice. Not a must, but would add weight to an opinion.
Seriously. I get looking at it, I really do. I have limited training in this. I've also used a firearm against another person before. VERY humbling experiences. The limited training did little more than show me what a monumental task dealing with a hostage taker would be. The times I've needed my gun have shown me these situations NEVER play out like we might think they will.
So, no I'm not saying one needs experience with hostage rescue. Just saying being in a line of work that may put you in that situation some day might help with understanding.
Stupid analogy, but I'm no accountant, not a lawyer and not a doctor. I can't tell you what the lawyer SHOULD have done in the courtroom because I'm not a lawyer. My Dad is and I spent many summers in LA courtrooms watching him work. Still, I can't say what Jodi Arias's lawyer should have done.
RalphK is qualified to speak on this stuff (as much as I hate to admit that) but he got jumped on by someone who is not qualified as far as I can tell. Oddly enough, Ralph didn't give an opinion on what the officer should have done, yet some not qualified did give their opinions on what an officer should have done in a situation that they have no clue how it transpired.
That's all. I certainly don't think you need to have been in a hostage situation to speak on it.
Keep in mind I'm just discussing. I'm not taking anything personal and am reserving my personal (slightly experienced) opinion on how the officer should have handled it until I have more facts.
Until then, I'll gladly discuss hostage situations, violent confrontations, moving targets shooting back, shooting under real stress, etc. Those things apply yet take nothing away from the situation itself.
do you know for certain that she was being used as a shield and the officer fired rapidly?
Deduction. Use it. If she wasn't being used as a shield, then the officer in question has a crap-ton other issues. The assumption she was used as a shield is the BEST CASE scenario (meaning we're giving the officer the benefit of the doubt) - otherwise, the officer simply shot her when she wasn't in line with the target and/or without checking his background, which is even more damning.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 16:46
Deduction. Use it. If she wasn't being used as a shield, then the officer in question has a crap-ton other issues. The assumption she was used as a shield is the BEST CASE scenario (meaning we're giving the officer the benefit of the doubt) - otherwise, the officer simply shot her when she wasn't in line with the target and/or without checking his background, which is even more damning.
I can't because I wasn't there. For all I know the badguy pointed his gun at the officer and all things went to hell. Key is, WE DON'T KNOW YET.
Wrong is wrong. Not saying anything makes it right. I just can't judge the situation because I don't I don't know what the hell happened.
I will say my immediate thought was "what the **** was he thinking?", but even if still feel that way, I personally feel I should wait for facts before stating an opinion.
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 16:51
I think that discussing the use of a firearm on a firearms forum is fine and to be expected. I'll bet dollars to donuts that at least one person on each side of the discussion in this thread has experience in these matters. It's quite a fine line to draw, otherwise.
Example: is having carried a firearm for a living enough to allow people to discuss this? No? How about shooting people in the military while deployed? No? How about being LE? No? How about having had hostage rescue training as LE? Eventually, we get down to LE who have responded to hostage situations or is just being LE who have trained for hostage situations good enough> But wait.....a lot of guys think only Tier 1 military and certain SWAT units are qualified to speak on these matters. What about the grunts in Fallujah that cleared buildings every day for weeks on end against a suicidal and trained enemy? No go because they weren't
-Tier 1
-SWAT
-rescuing hostages
Anyway, I think folks need to get thicker skins, especially when a very experienced LE guy is telling folks in this very thread that it's fine to discuss the situation here. jconsiglio, not at all personal and hopefully, sooner or later we meet up during training or at the range.
That is always the case. If you dare to comment, criticize or God forbid "MMQB" something where an officer was involved you're automatically labeled "anti-LE" by many cops on this forum, not all obviously.
However, when it's Joe Blow whoever involved in something feel free to kick them around the block and everyone dogpile on them. When it's Joe Blow everything reported in the media doesn't come under the same scrutiny and the apologists are somehow absent. The amount of hypocrisy is overwhelming.
How would this thread have developed if the story was different? If the headline was "Armed cops sat outside appartment whilst masked gunman shot and killed two innocent people"? I think the "bashing"/criticism would have been exactly the same, "****ing pathetic cops didn't do jack shit, and got these people killed. Why didn't they go in and kill the guy?".
I seem to remember some criticism towards the police who handled the Columbine shooting on here after the Newtown shooting, on how the police only cordoned off the area, and waited for better trained police, rather than go in. Now a guy does go in, and a civilian gets killed, unfortunately. The same criticism is there.
I am all for analyzing and evaluating events, in the context of learning. However, what some people here post is not valid criticism, is not identifying key elements of this situation that can be looked at and possibly some learning could be had from. Most people are just spouting off random insults about cops in general. Compare Mr. Penningtons posts with some of the other posts, and you'll see what I mean.
Yes, police officers make mistakes. If you are of the belief that they ought to be infallible, then you are in need of a reality adjustment to be honest. It is very easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize people doing a job that you don't do yourself. Not aimed at you Irish, just a general observation.
Generally, the tone in many threads like these is quite hostile and people seem more intent on running their suck, rather than contributing to the discussion with rational arguments. Some people always have the need to crucify someone. Discuss the subject at hand, at least, rather than this ad nauseum pattern of "LEO's suck"....."no they don't"......."yeah they do".....my 2 cents.
What we know is (if the information in the article is complete/correct):
-4 people were initially held by the gunman
-1 female was let go to withdraw cash for the gunman, under the threat of her friends being killed within 8 minutes if she didn't return
-The female who was let go alerted the police
-Police arrived, and saw the deceased woman's twin run from the building, leaving two people inside with the gunman
-One police officer entered the home, and encountered the gunman holding the deceased in a head lock with the gun pointed at her head.
-The gunman pointed the gun at the police officer, who then fired his weapon 8 times, striking the gunman 7 times and the deceased once, killing both.
The police officers who arrived knew that there were 2 people left with the gunman, he had threatened to start killing them if the woman was not back after 8 minutes.
Some unknowns in this situation:
-How long after the 911 call did the police arrive? What was the police officers SA with regards to the urgency of the situation?
-What was the distance between police officer and gunman/hostage?
-How much time did the police officer have to react, before the gunman turned his gun on him?
-What was the police officers level of training? (he did hit the bad guy 7 times, so either the distance was close or he was a good shot)
-Was the bullet that struck the deceased a result of poor marksmanship on the police officers part, or did the hostage move into the line of fire?
-Did the situation allow for a more passive response, like start negotiations/communication with the bad guy, while waiting for HR units to arrive?
-What is that PD's protocols/SOP for situations like these? Did the police officer act in accordance with, or violate them?
What if they had waited for SWAT/HRT, and the bad guy killed the remaining hostages while they waited? What if HRT arrived, and the end result was the same, one hostage dead (either from being shot by gunman or police)?
Quite honestly, there is no black/white answer for how this could have/should have played out. It is a tragedy for the family and friends of the deceased and a tragedy for the police officer as he did not intend for the hostage to be killed. If he was negligent in his conduct, and he might as well be, then he will face the consequences after an investigation.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 16:57
I think that discussing the use of a firearm on a firearms forum is fine and to be expected. I'll bet dollars to donuts that at least one person on each side of the discussion in this thread has experience in these matters. It's quite a fine line to draw, otherwise.
Example: is having carried a firearm for a living enough to allow people to discuss this? No? How about shooting people in the military while deployed? No? How about being LE? No? How about having had hostage rescue training as LE? Eventually, we get down to LE who have responded to hostage situations or is just being LE who have trained for hostage situations good enough> But wait.....a lot of guys think only Tier 1 military and certain SWAT units are qualified to speak on these matters. What about the grunts in Fallujah that cleared buildings every day for weeks on end against a suicidal and trained enemy? No go because they weren't
-Tier 1
-SWAT
-rescuing hostages
Anyway, I think folks need to get thicker skins, especially when a very experienced LE guy is telling folks in this very thread that it's fine to discuss the situation here. jconsiglio, not at all personal and hopefully, sooner or later we meet up during training or at the range.
Well, we have two very experienced LEO's saying two different things.... Just to complicate it a bit brother.. :D
I get your point. I got it before I ever even posted. I didn't mean it to that degree. What I meant was some of us know how ****ed up things get when in the middle of a fight due to experience or training and some of us only know from what we've heard from others.
If I see a car salesman (if one of you is a car salesman, I wasn't aware and didn't mean you in particular) and a SWAT officer both posting in this thread, I'll probably listen a little more closely to the SWAT officer.
Again, I'm not making a big deal of this, just having a simple conversation with friends.
One of these days we'll get together. I'm working on some things right now actually and you might be a good one to talk to. I'll Pm you here or on Lightfighter in the next couple days.
I think most in this thread are in agreement on LE needing more training. That's meant as a constructive statement.
Yep. I'll see you the training and raise you better equipment such as a carbine. Handguns are woefully inadequate tools for rapid incapacitation of hostage takers. Departments (and Bureaus) that still qualify their trainees on a shotgun instead of a carbine are not doing the public any favors. Take 100 hours of cultural sensitivity / diversity training out of the academy curriculum and replace it with carbine marksmanship.
If we are talking active shooter and all you have is a handgun, then you've got to take a bite of the shit sandwich and try to immediately end the situation. However, if it is a hostage situation without shots being fired, well my vote is to let the big boys play the game.
I can't because I wasn't there. For all I know the badguy pointed his gun at the officer and all things went to hell. Key is, WE DON'T KNOW YET.
Wrong is wrong. Not saying anything makes it right. I just can't judge the situation because I don't I don't know what the hell happened.
I will say my immediate thought was "what the **** was he thinking?", but even if still feel that way, I personally feel I should wait for facts before stating an opinion.
The point of deduction isn't to figure out what happened, it's to establish what facts we know, at a minimum and chart the logical progression of the subject matter.
We do know the girl is dead. We do know the officer shot her himself. We know that the perpetrator threatened the officer before the officer shot.
Deduction allows us to assume the best case scenario, given the facts, and from that chart the range that the situation could progress through.
The facts are that he shot her - that's indisputable. Therefore, any fallout from her being shot due to being a human shield can safely be used, because that's the BEST case scenario. Sure, he could have had an AD, he might have shot through the BG and hit her, it doesn't matter because every other scenario carries more negligent weight than our assumption.
It's not like there's a report of a shooting and we don't know how or why she died. We know those things, therefore we can walk through the best case scenario and know how this will likely proceed. If the assumption is wrong, that means the officer is guilty of even grosser negligence.
That is always the case. If you dare to comment, criticize or God forbid "MMQB" something where an officer was involved you're automatically labeled "anti-LE" by many cops on this forum, not all obviously.
However, when it's Joe Blow whoever involved in something feel free to kick them around the block and everyone dogpile on them. When it's Joe Blow everything reported in the media doesn't come under the same scrutiny and the apologists are somehow absent. The amount of hypocrisy is overwhelming.
Total and complete BS. Truly. If it's a civilian CCW holder, most would be asking for the facts in before making judgement calls, stating listening to media accounts poor fact gathering, and generally lamenting about how "Joe Blow" can't catch a break.
It would also be 100% correct statement to make, but sure has hell does not get applied to LE in the same situation here. If you're trying to say most here give LE the benefit of the doubt before making armchair comments, you're smokin' crack and have been on some forums I'm not familiar with.
I don't know if the LEO did the best he could under the circumstances or he made some very bad decisions given the circumstances he faced, and I'll wait until the actual facts are in before forming any opinion as I don't take an media accounts at face value....ever...
All I can say is, I wouldn't change places with him for all the $$$ in the world and the girls death falls on the POS who put her in that situation for which there may have only been a lose lose option to choose from.
As with many tragedies like this, maybe something good will come of it, like improved training and SOPs, or something else that may save lives in the future and some learning is had from it.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 17:09
Arctic, I missed your post at first. Good stuff as always.
Skyrr, I see your point and misunderstood what you were saying as I read it as "conclude".
I am all for analyzing and evaluating events, in the context of learning. However, what some people here post is not valid criticism, is not identifying key elements of this situation that can be looked at and possibly some learning could be had from...
Yes, police officers make mistakes. If you are of the belief that they ought to be infallible, then you are in need of a reality adjustment to ba honest. It is very easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize people doing a job that you don't do yourself. Not aimed at you Irish, just a general observation.
Generally, the tone in many threads like these is quite hostile and people seem more intent on running their suck, rather than contributing to the discussion with rational arguments. Some people always have the need to crucify someone. Discuss the subject at hand, at least, rather than this ad nauseum pattern of "LEO's suck"....."no they don't"......."yeah they do".....my 2 cents.
I don't support anyone bashing the officer involved in this incident and I hope it didn't come across that way. My assertion is that I've witnessed and taken part in valid, logical, rational commentary about other incidents in GD and that gets people labeled as being "anti-LE" by some of our more sensitive police officers. There are people who are so incredibly thin-skinned as to believe that the police and their actions are above reproach or criticism.
People should be willing to educate others rather than just "getting their feathers ruffled" and throwing out the typical "were you there?" type statements. Add something intelligent, insightful or meaningful rather than reverting to the stereotypical one-liners. Like it or not the citizens pay the salaries of the police and they only operate due to the consent of the governed, who should hold them accountable for their actions.
I agree with everything David Pennington has offered in this thread thus far.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 17:17
Well then by all means, quarterback away.
Being a taxpayer does not mean you should go on a public forum and trash talk a situation that you have no clue what happened. With the facts in line, to for it. Until then, none of us know what happened.
For not being "anti-LEO" some members here have noticed you quickly show up in Le threads and get confrontational with LEOs. This is not saying you are, just how it comes across.
Are you even aware of his department's policy on how to handle an immediate threat to the officer or civilian? Do you know if the bad guy was about to take the officer's or woman's life?
First and foremost, the hostage taker is responsible for the woman's death. If the officer was negligent, I hope that is dealt with accordingly.
Yep. I'll see you the training and raise you better equipment such as a carbine. Handguns are woefully inadequate tools for rapid incapacitation of hostage takers. Departments (and Bureaus) that still qualify their trainees on a shotgun instead of a carbine are not doing the public any favors. Take 100 hours of cultural sensitivity / diversity training out of the academy curriculum and replace it with carbine marksmanship.
And every tin foil hat "FEMA gonna put you in labor camps", etc type, along with those on the far left (amazing how much the two groups have in common on some topics...) will have a cow about the further "militarization of the police" and around we go. :rolleyes:
You want your LE to have a far more likely chance to come out with BG dead and hostage alive in such a situation? Better training, better guns, will go a long way there as you state. Don't want your LE to be better armed and better trained because that takes $$$ and the (at least the appearance) of further "militarization of the police"? Don't be surprised when their training and or equipment fail to get the outcome you want.
If we are talking active shooter and all you have is a handgun, then you've got to take a bite of the shit sandwich and try to immediately end the situation. However, if it is a hostage situation without shots being fired, well my vote is to let the big boys play the game.
I'll be interested to see which of those was the case in this event.
Arctic, I missed your post at first. Good stuff as always.
Thanks bro, and back at you.
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 17:22
Yep. I'll see you the training and raise you better equipment such as a carbine. Handguns are woefully inadequate tools for rapid incapacitation of hostage takers. Departments (and Bureaus) that still qualify their trainees on a shotgun instead of a carbine are not doing the public any favors. Take 100 hours of cultural sensitivity / diversity training out of the academy curriculum and replace it with carbine marksmanship.
If we are talking active shooter and all you have is a handgun, then you've got to take a bite of the shit sandwich and try to immediately end the situation. However, if it is a hostage situation without shots being fired, well my vote is to let the big boys play the game.
This is me completely agreeing with you.
Voodoo_Man
05-19-13, 17:29
Teaching recruits and active LEO's real carbine work means they will use what they are taught and that department will take on that liability.
Just thinking about it anyone up top that has anything other than safety of officers or the public on their mind will immediately not want to do it.
Then situations like this occur.
Carbines are issued in my area. Headshots with both pistol and carbine are taught to patrol officers.
Without being inside the house when the incident occurred and having no information from investigators, I am only going to say this was a tough situation that went terribly wrong.
My prayers go out to the family of the girl and the officer involved in the shooting.
Total and complete BS. Truly. If it's a civilian CCW holder, most would be asking for the facts in before making judgement calls, stating listening to media accounts poor fact gathering, and generally lamenting about how "Joe Blow" can't catch a break.
Reading comprehension is key. You're inferring that I meant a shooting incident involving a civilian, which I didn't. In fact I wrote "involved in something" leaving it open to things outside of that small window.
Well then by all means, quarterback away.
I have no desire to QB anything.
Being a taxpayer does not mean you should go on a public forum and trash talk a situation that you have no clue what happened. With the facts in line, to for it. Until then, none of us know what happened.
If you'd take the time to read through the thread I haven't mentioned anything contrary to the officer's actions.
For not being "anti-LEO" some members here have noticed you quickly show up in Le threads and get confrontational with LEOs. This is not saying you are, just how it comes across.
Fair enough and the opposite could be said as well. I've often been thanked by officers and civilians for my comments on M4C, true statement. In fact I've been shooting with several officers of this forum and even had a few beers over conversation. We don't always agree but we have intelligent discourse over matters rather than stomping our feet cause we don't agree.
If you mean confrontational in the fact that I may not agree with them and voice my opinion, then yes I'm confrontational in that manner. However, being an LEO does not put someone on a pedestal where they can't be questioned for the statements they make on a public forum. The whole "Don't question my authority" thing doesn't fly and if their ego gets bruised that easily on a gun forum I'd hate to see their response to a real world situation.
Are you even aware of his department's policy on how to handle an immediate threat to the officer or civilian? Do you know if the bad guy was about to take the officer's or woman's life?
I never once mentioned anything about the officer, the victim or the bad guy.
Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Reading comprehension is key. You're inferring that I meant a shooting incident involving a civilian,
Yes I was. If you want to pretend you mean "something" as an out you were not actually referring to a fire arms related incident, fine by me. Not buying it for a second, but all good.
which I didn't. In fact I wrote "involved in something" leaving it open to things outside of that small window.
Involved in "something." Got it. :rolleyes:
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 18:07
Irish, I think I may have made an assumption about what you said, mistakenly, about the actual event.. For that part I do apologize.
I hate when I'm misquoted and I should have quoted actual posts to be more clear.
I guess I'm just not sure why you post in LE threads and get confrontational with one of the people that actually has experience in these matters.
You say you get labeled as anti-LE by "sensitive officers". Maybe these officers just had a problem with someone posting negative about situation involving LEO's if you are not one or have not been in similar situations.
I don't know how you can disagree with an officer when it comes to what an officer should do.
I have no clue what you do for a living, but if I came along questioning the actions of those in your profession, going against your experienced opinion, you might find fault in that.
Carbines are issued in my area. Headshots with both pistol and carbine are taught to patrol officers.
Without being inside the house when the incident occurred and having no information from investigators, I am only going to say this was a tough situation that went terribly wrong.
My prayers go out to the family of the girl and the officer involved in the shooting.
What is your department's policy or procedure for responding to a hostage situation where NO shots have been fired? Does anybody work for an agency that trains its officers to attempt a solo rescue in this circumstance?
I am very curious to hear the dispatch transcripts in this case so that I have a better idea of the information being relayed to the responding officers.
Alpha Sierra
05-19-13, 18:19
anyone want to comment about the other circumstances involved?
how about the fact they left their front door wide open and unlocked?
or that there were several people in the home that did nothing to stop the intruder over the course of the half hour invasion?
so many factors that led up to this girl getting killed that were 100% under her control.
i can hardly blame the officer for her death.
I will comment.
You are spot on. These are the same god damned sheeple who got their rocks off at disarming law abiding New Yorkers. They are also the same god damned sheeple who think crime only happens where the black and Puerto Ricans live.
They are spineless pussies who live in a fantasy world. I, for one, am very very happy that their little illusion of safety got stomped into the ground and crushed.
I harbor no sympathy, pity, or compassion towards people who live life with their head up their ass and believe in the liberal mantras that law abiding gun owners are evil and that criminals and predators are simply the product of a historically oppressive society.
They reap what they have sown.
Littlelebowski
05-19-13, 18:36
I will comment.
You are spot on. These are the same god damned sheeple who got their rocks off at disarming law abiding New Yorkers. They are also the same god damned sheeple who think crime only happens where the black and Puerto Ricans live.
They are spineless pussies who live in a fantasy world. I, for one, am very very happy that their little illusion of safety got stomped into the ground and crushed.
I harbor no sympathy, pity, or compassion towards people who live life with their head up their ass and believe in the liberal mantras that law abiding gun owners are evil and that criminals and predators are simply the product of a historically oppressive society.
They reap what they have sown.
So, you know the family of this girl who got killed? Or are you rendering a snap judgement based upon an unlocked door? Does that make you a sheepdog?
Are you serious or just trolling?
I'll humor you... first off I think its pretty obvious she wasn't getting raped... and it would have been very obvious if she was.. he's right outside the ****ing apartment.
Secondly, would you rather get raped or get shot in the face and die?
Not trolling. Just aware of the magic properties of duct tape.
Basically if he goes in and it goes to shit, he gets the blame.
If he doesn't go in and it goes to shit, he gets the blame.
We have way to little info on this situation to make assumptions.
How long did the situation last inside the apartment when the officer went in?
What did the fleeing sister say tithe cops? If she said something along the lines of "he is going to kill her" I bet most any cop is going to go in.
How was the hostage shot? Bad aim, pass through, ricochet off the suspects skull, did she enter line of fire?
Did the officer even know she was a hostage? Was his info of a gunman inside the house?
How far was the stairway from the door? Did the officer step one step inside and get confronted with the situation?
What was the lighting situation? Did the officer even see the female?
My main point is there are a **** load of details that we don't know that make a huge difference here. None of them are going to ring the lady back but make a big difference when discussing what went wrong.
We have way to little info on this situation to make assumptions.
How long did the situation last inside the apartment when the officer went in?
What did the fleeing sister say tithe cops? If she said something along the lines of "he is going to kill her" I bet most any cop is going to go in.
How was the hostage shot? Bad aim, pass through, ricochet off the suspects skull, did she enter line of fire?
Did the officer even know she was a hostage? Was his info of a gunman inside the house?
How far was the stairway from the door? Did the officer step one step inside and get confronted with the situation?
What was the lighting situation? Did the officer even see the female?
My main point is there are a **** load of details that we don't know that make a huge difference here. None of them are going to ring the lady back but make a big difference when discussing what went wrong.
What, ask pertinent questions before making statements of facts how the LEO fuc%#ed up in what was truly a horrible worst case scenario? That's juss crazy talk sir.
Look, we all know had "they" been there, it would have been one quick shot through the left eye, then cool music would start playing.
The end. :rolleyes:
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 18:56
I don't understand why that is too much to ask. I have no ****ing clue what happened in that house.
Are you even aware of his department's policy on how to handle an immediate threat to the officer or civilian? Do you know if the bad guy was about to take the officer's or woman's life?
First and foremost, the hostage taker is responsible for the woman's death. If the officer was negligent, I hope that is dealt with accordingly.
The thing that will make or break the lawsuit against the department is what their policy indicated they should do in a hostage situation and whether the officer had training to do what he did or should have known better. His decision to actually shoot is excusable--if he was right to be where he was.
I don't understand why that is too much to ask. I have no ****ing clue what happened in that house.
Besides the fact that it was an obvious hostage situation, no shots had been fired, and a single officer decided to go in by himself.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 19:07
Besides the fact that it was an obvious hostage situation, no shots had been fired, and a single officer decided to go in by himself.
That's all I've got to go on. As mentioned earlier, what the sister said could mean a lot.
I don't see him going in as bad in any way.
That's all I've got to go on. As mentioned earlier, what the sister said could mean a lot.
I don't see him going in as bad in any way.
Going in to a situation like that alone is contrary to most training.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 19:31
Going in to a situation like that alone is contrary to most training.
I understand that, but I still don't see it as a bad thing.
Edit - if a person's life was in danger and he was taking a calculated risk based on the situation.
I understand that, but I still don't see it as a bad thing.
Edit - if a person's life was in danger and he was taking a calculated risk based on the situation.
If it was contrary to policy he is several kinds of ****ed.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 19:52
If it was contrary to policy he is several kinds of ****ed.
I definitely can't argue with that one brother.
What is your department's policy or procedure for responding to a hostage situation where NO shots have been fired? Does anybody work for an agency that trains its officers to attempt a solo rescue in this circumstance?
I am very curious to hear the dispatch transcripts in this case so that I have a better idea of the information being relayed to the responding officers.
Contain and negotiate is standard protocol if no shots are fired. If an officer feels the hostage is about to be seriously injured or killed, the officer moves to contact and takes steps to save the hostage.
I do not know what the responding officer heard or saw in this particular incident or his department's policy and procedure and cannot develop an informed opinion.
Does anyone know at what distance the officer engaged the hostage taker? Any information available about lighting?
My understanding is that it was indoors.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 20:04
I don't know about that but here are some things I've read so far.
When a police officer arrived, Smith was holding a gun to Rebello's head, Roach said.
He told the officer he was going to kill Rebello, and then turned the handgun toward the officer, she said.
The officer, fearing for his life, drew his gun and fired, Roach said.
Authorities have not identified the officer.
In a tense confrontation with the officer, gunman Dalton Smith "menaces our police officer, points his gun at the police officer," Azzata said. The officer opened fire, killing Smith and his hostage.
Azzata said the Nassau County police officer fired eight shots at Smith, who police described as having an "extensive" criminal background. Smith was hit seven times and died. Rebello was shot once in the head.
"He kept saying, `I'm going to kill her,' and then he pointed the gun at the police officer," Azzata said.
A loaded 9 mm handgun with a serial number scratched off was found at the scene, police said.
Smith, apparently unsatisfied with the valuables upstairs, asked if any of the four had a bank account and could withdraw money, Azzata said. The intruder then allowed the unidentified woman to leave and collect money from an ATM, telling her she had only eight minutes to come back with cash before he killed one of her friends, Azzata said.
The woman left for the bank and called 911, according to Azzata.
Minutes later, two police officers arrived at the home and found Rebello's twin sister Jessica running out of the front door and the male guest hiding behind a couch on the first floor, Azzata said.
One of the officers entered the home and encountered Smith holding onto Rebello in a headlock, coming down the stairs, Azzata said. Smith pulled Rebello closer and started moving backward toward a rear door of the house, pointing the gun at her head before eventually threatening the officer, Azzata said.
Belmont31R
05-19-13, 20:05
Lets not forget the shitbird inititiated the tragedy...yes the parents have to burry their daughter, he's gotta live w/ this his entire life.
Again, some of you so know what to do from behind your computer...please tell me, were you there???
I didn't post a single thing condemning his actions. Defensive much?
It's very sad that this lady was disarmed. It's even more sad that she was told the police will protect her.
At the LAV Adv Handgun class I took, there was an LE student telling us about how "instructors" would teach recruits at the police academy how to qualify for handgun if missing the target by using Kentucky windage rather than teaching them the fundamentals of marksmanship.
This is totally unacceptable. What agency or what is the region where the agency is located.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 20:18
This is totally unacceptable. What agency or what is the region where the agency is located.
Whoa, I missed that one earlier.
CarlosDJackal
05-19-13, 20:34
One of the officers entered the home and encountered Smith holding Rebello in a headlock, gun pointed at her head, coming down the stairs, Azzata said. When Smith pointed the gun at the officer, he began firing, Azzata said.
This sucks for the victim, her family and the responding Officer. But it seems in people's rush for a chance to dog pile on the cop just for the purpose of cop bashing, this little tidbit of information was overlooked.
I guess the scumbag who precipitated this incident had nothing to do I guess everyone else can make a hostage-rescue shot on demand an under extreme duress.
I guess the officer should have let the pos shoot him or even better, not bothered to respond until it was all over. MMQB at its best!! :rolleyes:
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 20:54
In my basic academy years ago the lead firearms instructor said:
"Don't shoot 100. Always drop a shot or two so if you hit an innocent person on the street the plaintiffs attorney can't point to your 100 qual scores and say it was intentional."
I shit you not.
The other great ones were that if you were a great shooter that you needed to intentionally space your shots out on the target so that they could be more easily counted. If you shot the center out of the target any shot that wasn't distinguishable was counted as a miss. You were penalized for shooting too well.
Again, I shit you not.
FWIW, I just discussed what's currently known about this case with a retired District Attorney and their opinion was that no criminal charges should be brought since the killing of the hostage was unintentional. The retired DA made the same comment re: a fatal accident during a pursuit. That said, they felt it was wide open for a civil suit.
Legally speaking, the bad guy caused the situation that caused the killing of the hostage and, were he alive, he would be charged with her murder.
David, I emailed this to my Dad who used to be a relatively well known DA in Los Angeles during the 80's and 90's before going to criminal defense. He said pretty much the same thing, especially about the guy being charged with her murder had he survived.
The things you mention remind me of the "throw away the first shot from your DA/SA handgun".
Jon
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 20:57
CarlosDJackal,
Absolutely agree. Those quotes I posted from the articles make it sound as there was no other choice than to fire.
It's also the first time I've heard two officers were on the scene.
They could still try to pin a manslaughter case on him, depending on state laws. In some places it would stick.
I don't think criminal charges are appropriate, though the settlement here will likely be 7 figures and rightfully so.
jonconsiglio
05-19-13, 21:02
Yeah, no question that the settlement will be huge. As you said, rightfully so.
Whoa, I missed that one earlier.
I want to say he was Chicago PD.
As to the story. It sucks, but it was the way the cookie crumbled. What most folks look past is everyone in a situation like that has a vote. The cop could have been a crack shot, keeping all his rounds in a tight group right on the perp's heart, the hostage panics, steps just a bit the wrong way and boom. Regardless, I comment him for knowing he was wading neck deep into a shitty situation and having the guts to go on. There could very well have been 3 dead innocents in there had he not.
I'll be perfectly honest, in that situation I pray I could perform well, but that would be a suck that very few on this board could have pulled off.
This sucks for the victim, her family and the responding Officer. But it seems in people's rush for a chance to dog pile on the cop just for the purpose of cop bashing, this little tidbit of information was overlooked.
I guess the scumbag who precipitated this incident had nothing to do I guess everyone else can make a hostage-rescue shot on demand an under extreme duress.
I guess the officer should have let the pos shoot him or even better, not bothered to respond until it was all over. MMQB at its best!! :rolleyes:
I'd hope that most of us are attempting to dissect this shooting as a learning tool. I think that the crux of the matter is determining what caused this officer to enter the residence. Did he know that it was a hostage situation? Was he told something by the sister running out of the house that forced his hand to enter the building?
My suspicion is that most LEO's seeing this situation on a written test would not have attempted to enter the building if they knew that it was a hostage situation and there was no report of gunfire or hostages being wounded. This might change if the responding officers were told that the subject was shooting people in the house.
For all we know, this officer may have thought that he was responding to a simple domestic disturbance and got a real surprise when he saw what was coming down the stairs. Until we know these details, it is impossible to quarter back this case.
Littlelebowski
05-20-13, 05:19
This is totally unacceptable. What agency or what is the region where the agency is located.
North Carolina; LAV knows which one specifically. Like I said, the officer that related that to me was there at the class (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/09/vickers-tactical-advanced-handgun-3-day.html) was there on his own time and money. Good for him.
North Carolina; LAV knows which one specifically. Like I said, the officer that related that to me was there at the class (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/09/vickers-tactical-advanced-handgun-3-day.html) was there on his own time and money. Good for him.
What sucks is that BS is more common that you would believe. The range I teach/shoot/run a match out of is used by many local firearms instructors. I am there a good bit for this & that and I have personally seen this with my own eyes from local firearms/CWP instructors who actually do a good amount of business on up to LE. Around here being an LE firearms instructor has more to do with who you know vs what you know. That said I can name a few very squared away local guys, but they are the minority.
Voodoo_Man
05-20-13, 08:30
What sucks is that BS is more common that you would believe. The range I teach/shoot/run a match out of is used by many local firearms instructors. I am there a good bit for this & that and I have personally seen this with my own eyes from local firearms/CWP instructors who actually do a good amount of business on up to LE. Around here being an LE firearms instructor has more to do with who you know vs what you know. That said I can name a few very squared away local guys, but they are the minority.
In my area it is the same thing.
My dept's "firearms instructors" do not know jack and we disregard what they say every time we go the range.
jonconsiglio
05-20-13, 08:44
A couple thing from this report stand out to me...
Smith was apparently unsatisfied with the valuables in the home and sent one of the Rebello's roommates to an ATM, said Detective Lt. John Azzata of the Nassau County Police Department.
"He said if she wasn't back in eight minutes, he'd kill one of the individuals in the house," Azzata said.
The roommate called 911, Azzata said, and two officers were dispatched to the scene.
An officer entered the two-story home and found Smith holding Rebello in a headlock at gunpoint, Azzata said. When the suspect pointed the gun at the officer, he said the two exchanged fire.
Smith said he would start killing hostages if she wasn't back with 8 minutes. No idea if this was relayed to the officers.
Also, it says the two exchanged fire. That's the first I've heads of that. This is a more recent article, but until now it's just been said she was in a headlock and as Smith was moving backwards, he pointed the gun at the officer.
As time goes by, we get more info.
This is totally unacceptable. What agency or what is the region where the agency is located.
This is far more common (in both practice and the general mindset that leads to this type of agency training failure) than most would think for LE. It is also deeply rooted in the LE training culture and if an individual tries to make changes for the better to the agencies training program they are typically ridiculed.
Most agencies do not have the training budget or time to spend on individual skill assessment & development for each and every one of their personnel.
In reality it is each man for himself in LE if we want to excel in our own personal skills development. That doesn't bother me at all. The hardest part is explaining to my wife why it is so important for me to train continually when she sees that the overwhelming majority of the people I work with (I estimate 80-90%) never shoot outside of our PD qualifications.
A couple thing from this report stand out to me...
Smith said he would start killing hostages if she wasn't back with 8 minutes. No idea if this was relayed to the officers.
Also, it says the two exchanged fire. That's the first I've heads of that. This is a more recent article, but until now it's just been said she was in a headlock and as Smith was moving backwards, he pointed the gun at the officer.
As time goes by, we get more info.
I think that if the sequence of events that the article reports are true, then you could deduce that if mr. dirtbag was moving backwards with the victm in a headlock, then the victim would have been between the officer and dirtbag, thus in the line of fire. Whether or not she accidentally moved into a round, or a round was errantly fired at her, is yet to be determined.
I don't know this officer's level of training, nor do I know all the details of the situation, so I won't get into the MMQB'ing. But I will admit that there are some things in the article that raises some question marks...if the article is accurate.
North Carolina; LAV knows which one specifically. Like I said, the officer that related that to me was there at the class (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/09/vickers-tactical-advanced-handgun-3-day.html) was there on his own time and money. Good for him.
Two points:
1) If I met a LEO Range Officer who trained people to qualify and not teach them good marksmanship skills, I would chew a yard off his ass.
2) This is why I donate time and money to help smaller local agencies with their firearms training.
jonconsiglio
05-20-13, 09:48
Here's some witness reports of what went on inside. Sounds like the shots were not all fired at once.
Hofstra student John Kourtessis described a chaotic scene of fear and horror when a crazed parolee in a ski mask took his friends and him hostage in a gunpoint siege that ended with the death of a pretty co-ed.
“Somebody in this house f--ked up and owes this Russian guy $10,000,” yelled Dalton Smith, who was on the run after violating parole last month.
“I was trying to calm everyone down, like, ‘Don’t worry, just give the guy what he wants and we’re going to get out of here,’ ” Kourtessis recounted to The Post.
But there was no averting tragedy. Minutes after the incident began, Smith and Andrea Rebello, 21, were dead.
HOFSTRA STUDENT ANDREA REBELLO KILLED BY FRIENDLY FIRE FROM VETERAN COP
GRADUATES WEAR WHITE RIBBONS TO HONOR SLAIN STUDENT
The horror unfolded after a night of drinking at a bar, McHebe’s, a hangout for Hofstra University students where Rebello, her twin sister, Jessica, their friend Shannon Thomas, Andrea’s boyfriend Brad Wilson and Jessica’s boyfriend, Kourtessis, partied to mark the end of the school semester.
“We were supposed to be celebrating because school was out, but Andrea wasn’t having the best night,” said Wilson, 22, a marketing major.
“She just had something bothering her. So I was there, just doing what I could to help make her feel better. I tried making her laugh.”
Wilson broke off from the group at about 2 a.m. after they left the bar. The rest stopped a 7-Eleven for late-night snack and headed to the tiny, two-story house the girls shared in Uniondale, LI.
“We never got a chance to say goodbye,” Wilson said.
At the house, Jessica asked Kourtessis to move his car.
He ran upstairs to get his keys. When he came back down, Kourtessis said, Smith was there, waiting.
Smith kept talking about “the Russian guy,” Kourtessis recalled.
The parolee claimed the house’s residents owed the Russian money, that the Russian was waiting outside and that the debt was due “by the end of the night.”
His claims made no sense to anyone, but Smith’s semiautomatic gun was hard to ignore.
Kourtessis said he found himself in a kind of survival mode.
“I didn’t hear screaming,” he recalled. “I just don’t remember hearing screaming. I had tunnel vision.”
Kourtessis tried to appease Smith. “He was saying . . . that he just needed us to cooperate. I said, ‘Listen, we have all this money here.’ ”
They offered up the computers, jewelry and other items in the house, Kourtessis said, explaining to the thug, “This is worth $3,000, this is worth $1,500, we’re almost there.”
Andrea, Jessica and Thomas were crying. Smith kept demanding more money. But none of the young people had enough to satisfy him.
“So he says. ‘Where’s the jewelry?’ ” Kourtessis recalled.
They moved upstairs, menaced all the while by Smith’s gun.
The crook asked who had money in the bank. Shannon said she could get $700 from an ATM. Smith told her to go get it.
Shannon ran from the house, drove off and called 911.
Moments later, in the house, Andrea, Jessica and John heard a noise outside. Thinking Shannon had returned, Jessica went to the door. Instead, Jessica found police officers — so she ran to safety.
Realizing the police had arrived, Smith freaked out.
“I can’t go back to jail! One of you, get over here,” Smith said, according to Kourtessis’ account.
“So I get up and come over and he puts me down with the gun to the back of my head,” Kourtessis said. “He said, ‘Show them your hands and tell the cops to get out of there.’ Then he does the same to Andrea.”
Smith, whose rap sheet lists robbery and assault charges dating to 1999, asked for a way out of the house.
Kourtessis offered an escape route. “Crawl and show me,” Smith commanded.
Slowly, Kourtessis made his way down the stairs, making a left at the bottom.
“I see an officer there, with his gun out, standing by the steps. So I’m thinking, ‘Good, there’s a cop there,’ ” he said.
“I run behind the L-shaped couch and I see the cop pointing his gun toward the TV.”
Smith also made his way down the stairs — holding Andrea in a headlock and using her as a human shield, police said. The officer began talking to Smith, saying, “Put the gun down and let the girl go.”
“I’m going to kill her,” Smith replied. Kourtessis ran into a bedroom. Then he heard the shots.
“I hear ‘pop, pop’ — two shots,” he said. “I run out and I run toward where they are.”
By then the cop had maneuvered the criminal into the basement area of the home, said Kourtessis. He then watched as the officer shot twice more. He saw other officers outside, and dropped to the floor.
“Andrea! Andrea!” he screamed.
But Andrea didn’t answer.
Both Smith and Andrea were felled by bullets fired by a Nassau officer, cops said.
Records show Smith, 30, was released from prison in February after serving more than 8 years in the slammer for attempted armed robbery, and cops said he quickly violated parole, prompting a warrant for his arrest.
The career criminal also served time previously for crimes including auto theft.
After the shooting, cops swarmed into the house, handcuffed Kourtessis and began a search.
The stunning episode just days before Hofstra’s commencement sent shock waves through the school.
Andrea’s family huddled at their Westchester home, refusing to comment to media as visitors brought food and flowers. Four detectives visited the family late yesterday.
For Wilson, it was a tragic end to his 2 1/2-year romance with the beautiful young woman from Tarrytown.
“Andrea had the biggest, brightest smile and she was so smart. She practically lived in the library, always into her books and studying hard.
Andrea had planned to soon move from the home where she died.
“I really wish she moved out sooner,” said Wilson.
“She had so much love and she showed it to everyone. She was pure and innocent and deserved everything good in this world. I will never forget about her, and she will always have a big piece of my heart.”
Additional reporting by Erin Calabrese, Candice Giove, Candace Amos and Kathianne Boniello
It's getting a hell of a lot more complicated now.
I don't know why there is so much dialog here regarding the unknown. All this speculation for what again?
The two cops arrived at the house just as Jessica was escaping through the front door, screaming that Smith had a gun.
Budimlic saw movement in the house and stepped inside. Almost instantly, he was separated from his partner when the front door slammed shut and locked the other cop out.
“The officer was trapped inside,’’ a source said of Budimlic.
Budimlic then “hid behind a wall” hoping to surprise Smith, the source said.
When the terrified Kourtessis, hiding behind a couch, suddenly yelled that police were inside the house, Smith pulled Rebello closer and spotted Budimlic, the source said.
“The officer lost the element of surprise” and was alone with no backup, the source said.
http://m.nypost.com/f/mobile/news/local/hofstra_cop_blames_self_tpyllJn9gGPDezfSXAiiOP
(mobile link is all I can post now but you get the idea)
jonconsiglio
05-20-13, 11:16
Why the **** did that kid (the one hiding behind the couch) yell that cops were in the house....
Why the **** did that kid (the one hiding behind the couch) yell that cops were in the house....
Because he has no clue. Period.
(not meant in a condescending way)
jonconsiglio
05-20-13, 11:42
Because he has no clue. Period.
(not meant in a condescending way)
I know brother. I said that more out of shock. It's amazing how people react to situations.
Alpha Sierra
05-20-13, 11:45
These were all college age kids in their late teens and early twenties.
You are all witnessing the end result of several decades of learned helplessness as taught by the socialist, government-run re-education centers otherwise known as public schools.
Everyone is hiding, afraid to fight and peeing their pants while waiting for the police, whom they believe will keep them always safe.
Littlelebowski
05-20-13, 12:20
These were all college age kids in their late teens and early twenties.
You are all witnessing the end result of several decades of learned helplessness as taught by the socialist, government-run re-education centers otherwise known as public schools.
Everyone is hiding, afraid to fight and peeing their pants while waiting for the police, whom they believe will keep them always safe.
Damn, you're a hard core sheepdog with inside knowlege. You tell them how it is! Pass judgement on that dead girl.
Stay classy man, stay classy.
What is your department's policy or procedure for responding to a hostage situation where NO shots have been fired? Does anybody work for an agency that trains its officers to attempt a solo rescue in this circumstance?
I am very curious to hear the dispatch transcripts in this case so that I have a better idea of the information being relayed to the responding officers.
Not the person you quoted, but since you opened it up to any officer, I'll give you mine.
If it's an active shooter (shots being fired), you go in, move to the shots and neutralize the threat. If at any time the shooter stops shooting and takes a hostage, then it morphs into a standoff situation. If it's a standoff/hostage situation, you back off just enough to reasonably ensure officer safety, establish a perimeter, evacuate non-hostiles as appropriate and contain the event until trained negotiators & SOT team arrive. If the assailant goes active and shots are fired, you engage as necessary and practicable.
That leaves a lot of room for bad things to happen, but ultimately, your response shouldn't do more harm than good. Making that tough call is why not everyone can do it.
I will comment.
You are spot on. These are the same god damned sheeple who got their rocks off at disarming law abiding New Yorkers. They are also the same god damned sheeple who think crime only happens where the black and Puerto Ricans live.
They are spineless pussies who live in a fantasy world. I, for one, am very very happy that their little illusion of safety got stomped into the ground and crushed.
I harbor no sympathy, pity, or compassion towards people who live life with their head up their ass and believe in the liberal mantras that law abiding gun owners are evil and that criminals and predators are simply the product of a historically oppressive society.
They reap what they have sown.
I find your attitude marginally understandable, and yet utterly reprehensible at the same time. You'd have been better off not commenting at all. Your post holds no value for anyone. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. :(
The thing that will make or break the lawsuit against the department is what their policy indicated they should do in a hostage situation and whether the officer had training to do what he did or should have known better. His decision to actually shoot is excusable--if he was right to be where he was.
Only if the court agrees that the policy is reasonable, regardless of the outcome. Bad policy is never defensible.
montanadave
05-20-13, 12:36
These were all college age kids in their late teens and early twenties.
You are all witnessing the end result of several decades of learned helplessness as taught by the socialist, government-run re-education centers otherwise known as public schools.
Everyone is hiding, afraid to fight and peeing their pants while waiting for the police, whom they believe will keep them always safe.
Leo Tolstoy said:
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
I'm not sure what he thought about slow-witted know-it-alls.
These were all college age kids in their late teens and early twenties.
You are all witnessing the end result of several decades of learned helplessness as taught by the socialist, government-run re-education centers otherwise known as public schools.
Everyone is hiding, afraid to fight and peeing their pants while waiting for the police, whom they believe will keep them always safe.
Think about what you are saying Tell me another point in history when you were likely to find college girls with loaded firearms in their dorm / apartment?
"Blame is just a lazy person's way of making sense of chaos."
Doug Coupland
Terrible outcome to a chaotic situation. Ill admit, the 8 rounds does make me question some things, but in the end its like commenting on a weather disaster after it happened.
jonconsiglio
05-20-13, 14:03
It sounds like the shots may not have all been fired at once. The fighting back and forth does zero good unless one truly needs called out.
This is an emotional topic. This was a bad situation all around. It sounds like there may have been a delay on the proper information. This is one of the main reasons it's so important to give the most important details first when making an emergency call. If that info is not relayed to the responding officers, the situation can be even worse.
We heard what policy was for their department, but he may have been following policy based on what he knew of the situation.
We know the officers were separated. We know he was trying to stay undetected and the student yelled that the police were here. We know Smith pointed his handgun at the officer.
We all know that most departments lack in training due to budgetary restraints. We know a large percentage of officers are uninterested in seeking outside training.
I feel for everyone involved aside for the piece of shit that caused the event to happen in the first place. I feel absolutely terrible for the family of that girl. I can't imagine what they're going through.
I feel for that officer and his family as well. Right or wrong.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-20-13, 14:33
Find the Russian. Do you really think there was a Russian?
I'm picturing a jewelry box for my daughter that has a false compartment with a 38 snub nose revolver in it...
Provided the girl who called the police explained, he knew going into the situation that there was a potential hostage situation. He also knew the guy had threatened to kill the hostages.
Knowing that, who in their right mind would go in without a hostage situation team or SWAT team? This cop decided he could handle the situation and then, when HIS life was threatened (when a gun was pointed at him), put the girls life in danger and ultimately (and directly) killed her.
His actions were inexcusable and blatantly stupid.... And he killed a hostage because of it.
He should have waited for backup. He should have waited for a negotiator. He should have had tactical backup. That's what I would have done/requested and what anyone who cares about the lives of the victims should have done.
He singlehandedly escalated the situation.
You have nothing to contribute but your contrived facts. Your an Id--t. Wait till you have facts before you use words like "inexcusable" and "blatantly stupid"
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In my unprofessional opinion, he should have retreated. Let him wait it out and then try to negotiate with him.
From the article:
"The woman left for the bank and called 911, according to Azzata.
Minutes later, two police officers arrived at the home and found Jessica running out of the front door and the male guest hiding behind a couch on the first floor, Azzata said.
One of the officers entered the home and encountered Smith holding Rebello in a headlock, gun pointed at her head, coming down the stairs, Azzata said. When Smith pointed the gun at the officer, he began firing, Azzata said"
Why would you even go in there knowing it was a hostage situation? Sounds absolutely reckless and the life of an innocent has been lost because of his actions.
Because that is what police officers do. They run to the danger.
Just by reading your statement you should be able to see what might have developed. It wasn't a confirmed hostage situation until he came down the stairs, then the shtf.
As to the officers training. I'm sure he had adequate training for what a patrol officer is expected to perform. We can all use more training but to say he was untrained is ridiculous.
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Alaskapopo
05-20-13, 15:57
Sorry, but this is pathetic. He killed an innocent woman. End of story. Who cares that he took out a criminal? There's a good chance the hostage would still be alive had the officer not shot.
ETA: meant woman not man
Where you there?....
Its always easier to monday morning quarterback something. Bad result and it sucks. The one truly at fault is the criminal who took the innocent woman hostage.
Pat
So because they're allowed to shoot, that gives them carte Blanche to kill innocent hostages?
This is a classic example of what is wrong with our government. Regular, untrained, everyday people (no disrespect to the good cops who actually know what the heck they're doing, as this doesn't apply to them) are out into positions of authority where they can literally cause death to innocent people. They then make the ridiculous decision to intervene where they are neither qualified nor informed and proceed to permanently wreck the lives of others.
Is this had been in Russia and Spetznatz had killed a hostage in the same manner, we'd be mocking them to no end right now. Instead, this guy gets a pass because he's a good ole boy in blue.
If you read this story and are not outraged, you need to rethink what freedom and liberty really mean to
you, because in the end this is a state-sanctioned homicide.
"The only profession where you can kill an innocent and still go home at the end of the day."
I heard that quote in the police academy in a ethics segment. It was used to make you realize the power of the job and the responsibility you have to the public and yourself. Bad things happen and sometimes you can be right yet still be wrong. That's the nature of the job.
Skyyr, I have no idea who you are but I know what you are not.
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I'm done. The ignorant comments of a few have stirred up the bile.
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Two points:
1) If I met a LEO Range Officer who trained people to qualify and not teach them good marksmanship skills, I would chew a yard off his ass.
2) This is why I donate time and money to help smaller local agencies with their firearms training.
Around me, the Firearms instructors at the SO and a PD (county seat) are good shooters/instructors and are squared away. Here is the problem, they do not have the time, ammo or funds to ACTUALLY teach officers/deputies ANYTHING. All they are there to do is run the quals. If an officer wants to do any more shooting (other than quals), he must:
1. Do it on his off time.
2. Provide his own ammo.
I have offered FREE training to the local LE MANY TIMES without a single taker. Reason? There are no funds in the budget for overtime. Couple this with the fact that most LE WON'T do any training UNLESS they are getting paid for it. :rolleyes:
C4
polydeuces
05-20-13, 16:22
The times I've needed my gun have shown me these situations NEVER play out like we might think they will.
THAT is the fundamental truth, so much so it hurts just thinking about it.
Until someone actually has crossed the Rubicon themselves it is so very much impossible to comprehend what all can and will happen once the gun goes up and on target.
This is why in my humble opinion anyone offering statements in the trend of "....this is what I'd do..." is naive and shows how clueless they are.
The only thing we can do is train for the worst and hope you're making the right call if and when, so afterwards you and yours get to go home.
As opposed to hospital, jail or morgue.
On this one best let the facts speak for themselves, and until they're all known - as far as that ever will be possible - we're better off holding any judgement.
Around me, the Firearms instructors at the SO and a PD (county seat) are good shooters/instructors and are squared away. Here is the problem, they do not have the time, ammo or funds to ACTUALLY teach officers/deputies ANYTHING. All they are there to do is run the quals. If an officer wants to do any more shooting (other than quals), he must:
1. Do it on his off time.
2. Provide his own ammo.
I have offered FREE training to the local LE MANY TIMES without a single taker. Reason? There are no funds in the budget for overtime. Couple this with the fact that most LE WON'T do any training UNLESS they are getting paid for it. :rolleyes:
C4
This is the sad part of law enforcement. I've been the lead firearms trainer in my PD for 16 years now, and except for my core training staff very few officers are willing to give of their own time to train.
My dept. has made free ammo available since I've worked there and yet I don't even have to take off my shoes to count how many officers avail themselves of that benefit.
I think this is indicative of who is taking the job over the last 20 or so years. I'm hoping that with the influx of military and combat vets this will turn around some and hopefully my sucessor will have a more fulfilling experience on the range training the dept.
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Alpha Sierra
05-20-13, 17:44
Damn, you're a hard core sheepdog with inside knowlege. You tell them how it is! Pass judgement on that dead girl.
Stay classy man, stay classy.
First, I don't do sheepdog. I look out for me and mine. All others are on their f-ing own.
Second, you can keep up on the ad-hominems. They don't detract from the accuracy of my observations about the state of dependency that most people in this country live in.
Alaskapopo
05-20-13, 17:51
Around me, the Firearms instructors at the SO and a PD (county seat) are good shooters/instructors and are squared away. Here is the problem, they do not have the time, ammo or funds to ACTUALLY teach officers/deputies ANYTHING. All they are there to do is run the quals. If an officer wants to do any more shooting (other than quals), he must:
1. Do it on his off time.
2. Provide his own ammo.
I have offered FREE training to the local LE MANY TIMES without a single taker. Reason? There are no funds in the budget for overtime. Couple this with the fact that most LE WON'T do any training UNLESS they are getting paid for it. :rolleyes:
C4
What you said is true however law enforcement officer also as a group are a hard one to get to the range on their own time to shoot. I used to host three gun matches for my department inviting all agency's around to participate. Attendance was poor to the point I gave up on it and just host matches to the public now no more special police/military only matches. Even when we provided the ammo it was hard to get guys out. Egos are huge and some in this line of work don't even like to shoot. Its frustrating.
Pat
What a shitty situation. Classic - ****ed if you do: ****ed if you don't LEO tragedy.
I'm generally hard on LEO simply cause they are supposed to be the professionals in the room and therefore I hold them to a higher standard. In this case I'm going to give the officer some benefit of the doubt and default to blaming the death of an innocent on his department. I have very limited experience around Academy trainees, but IMO most were very lacking in firearms proficiency. I have seen guys desperate to hit a target at 15 yds with sights fully drifted to one side or the other in an attempt to compensate for shitty fundamentals. As a teacher by profession I don't attribute this fault to the student, but rather the teacher. Those kids were trying. They were at private ranges on their own dime. Unfortunately for them their "instructors" didnt bother with root cause analysis and instead took short cuts to try to get them to pass. Thankfully for them there was an instructor on hand at the range who helped get them squared away. Given how our current society portrays guns it's not hard to imagine that a huge number of cadets have little to no firearms experience aside from MoH or Hollywierd. So the curriculum needs to account for that.
As a society we have raised the expectation for responding officers. New active shooter protocols now put offices into high stress shooting situation like a class full of panicked, headless chicken kids where the officers is supposed to enter and effectively engage an active shooter. Sadly our initial and continuing firearms training seems to be lacking.
In this case I'm willing to bet that the Officer in question resorted to training. Training that focuses on shooting CoM till the threat stops. Generally that will get the job done, unless you're in a hostage situation that requires more. He could very well have been considered a marksman by the square range, hit a X" plate standard and could very well have lived up to those exact same standards under this stressful situation, yet still ended up hitting an innocent person. Basically, in my very limited opinion, most LEO could, in a field situation, perform at the highest level of their qualification requirements yet still come up short. We seem to default to training these individuals with minimal firearms experience to meet the best case scenarios. A threat square to your field of fire and out in the open and expecting them to then be able to deal with a much more difficult scenario in real life. A little bass akwards IMO. I've generally felt that training for the worst is the best route.
With that said, I have no clue how to get the idiot lawyers and liability specialist out of the training loop and allow departments to offer proper training regimens. I don't think it's appropriate to ask officers to spend their own money getting and maintaining a skill required to do the job they are asked to do.
What a shitty situation. Classic - ****ed if you do: ****ed if you don't LEO tragedy.
I'm generally hard on LEO simply cause they are supposed to be the professionals in the room and therefore I hold them to a higher standard. In this case I'm going to give the officer some benefit of the doubt and default to blaming the death of an innocent on his department. I have very limited experience around Academy trainees, but IMO most were very lacking in firearms proficiency. I have seen guys desperate to hit a target at 15 yds with sights fully drifted to one side or the other in an attempt to compensate for shitty fundamentals. As a teacher by profession I don't attribute this fault to the student, but rather the teacher. Those kids were trying. They were at private ranges on their own dime. Unfortunately for them their "instructors" didnt bother with root cause analysis and instead took short cuts to try to get them to pass. Thankfully for them there was an instructor on hand at the range who helped get them squared away. Given how our current society portrays guns it's not hard to imagine that a huge number of cadets have little to no firearms experience aside from MoH or Hollywierd. So the curriculum needs to account for that.
As a society we have raised the expectation for responding officers. New active shooter protocols now put offices into high stress shooting situation like a class full of panicked, headless chicken kids where the officers is supposed to enter and effectively engage an active shooter. Sadly our initial and continuing firearms training seems to be lacking.
In this case I'm willing to bet that the Officer in question resorted to training. Training that focuses on shooting CoM till the threat stops. Generally that will get the job done, unless you're in a hostage situation that requires more. He could very well have been considered a marksman by the square range, hit a X" plate standard and could very well have lived up to those exact same standards under this stressful situation, yet still ended up hitting an innocent person. Basically, in my very limited opinion, most LEO could, in a field situation, perform at the highest level of their qualification requirements yet still come up short. We seem to default to training these individuals with minimal firearms experience to meet the best case scenarios. A threat square to your field of fire and out in the open and expecting them to then be able to deal with a much more difficult scenario in real life. A little bass akwards IMO. I've generally felt that training for the worst is the best route.
With that said, I have no clue how to get the idiot lawyers and liability specialist out of the training loop and allow departments to offer proper training regimens. I don't think it's appropriate to ask officers to spend their own money getting and maintaining a skill required to do the job they are asked to do.
Astute observation. On point.
You have nothing to contribute but your contrived facts. Your an Id--t. Wait till you have facts before you use words like "inexcusable" and "blatantly stupid"
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Funny, because every single assertion I've made in this thread so far has been spot on, including the speculation he shot her in the head while being used as a human shield.
"The only profession where you can kill an innocent and still go home at the end of the day."
I heard that quote in the police academy in a ethics segment. It was used to make you realize the power of the job and the responsibility you have to the public and yourself. Bad things happen and sometimes you can be right yet still be wrong. That's the nature of the job.
Skyyr, I have no idea who you are but I know what you are not.
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Ah, an apologist and an authoritarian. No wonder we disagree.
mikelowrey
05-21-13, 07:47
Around me, the Firearms instructors at the SO and a PD (county seat) are good shooters/instructors and are squared away. Here is the problem, they do not have the time, ammo or funds to ACTUALLY teach officers/deputies ANYTHING. All they are there to do is run the quals. If an officer wants to do any more shooting (other than quals), he must:
1. Do it on his off time.
2. Provide his own ammo.
I have offered FREE training to the local LE MANY TIMES without a single taker. Reason? There are no funds in the budget for overtime. Couple this with the fact that most LE WON'T do any training UNLESS they are getting paid for it. :rolleyes:
C4
I wish you could be in NY lol, my dept offer a free box once a month but they don't do much "training" per say, they just want you to shoot it, clean it and go home.
I would definitely take the time and get free training, it is in my best interest to get better at what I do.
I wish you could be in NY lol, my dept offer a free box once a month but they don't do much "training" per say, they just want you to shoot it, clean it and go home.
I would definitely take the time and get free training, it is in my best interest to get better at what I do.
If the Range Officers will give you a little latitude to practice what someone teaches you off site, try taking them up on the 50 rounds of ammunition and get in some trigger time. When I ran our range and had ammunition to spare, someone who showed up to practice might receive ammunition that someone else did not bother to show up to the range to use.
mikelowrey
05-21-13, 08:30
If the Range Officers will give you a little latitude to practice what someone teaches you off site, try taking them up on the 50 rounds of ammunition and get in some trigger time. When I ran our range and had ammunition to spare, someone who showed up to practice might receive ammunition that someone else did not bother to show up to the range to use.
We don't get much freedom in the ranges (dept policy) but I still take the free box over nothing, same thing with training sgts, I am always harassing for any training that comes up but Always get the "there isn't a lot of spots open and those that are, the senior people will get it"
But hey, at least I try :D
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