View Full Version : Winchester cases stuck in chamber of M16
Proteinshake
05-20-13, 21:44
Ok guys, I can usually find all of my answers with the search button, but this has got me stumped.
I have had several brass cases fail to extract and end up stuck in the chamber of my rifle during the past couple trips to the range. The rifle is a basic stock Colt M16 Commando. Total round count for the rifle is around 9-10 thousand. Rifle is always fired wet using Slip 2000 ewl. This only happens on full auto firing when the rifle is hot, and only with Winchester 55 grain FMJ 5.56 white box. The stuck cases have to be removed with a cleaning rod or by hitting the stock on the ground while pulling back the charging handle. Once the malfunctions start, I have tried switching ammo (.223 and 5.56 both) and the problem stops. I also tried a different case of Win 5.56 white box and the stuck case problem will come right back.
I put in new gas rings, ejector spring, heavy duty extractor spring and get the same results.
I will probably just stay away from the ammo, but I wanted to get some opinions.
Thanks
Have you considered shooting the ammo in another AR that is known to function properly using that ammo? This would allow you to rule it out.
Have you successfully fired the same ammo in the past? Give the chamber a good cleaning and check your extractor, if you havent done so already. Check your buffer spring as well.
What does the buffer spring have to do with the extraction issues?
Have you successfully fired the same ammo in the past? Give the chamber a good cleaning and check your extractor, if you havent done so already. Check your buffer spring as well.
Proteinshake
05-20-13, 23:40
I have shot several boxes from the same case of ammo through a 6920 with no problems. If this makes sense, the stuck cases only happen during burst fire and when the rifle is heated up. Semi auto firing is fine. Chamber and extractor are clean.
Just looking at it as a moot possibility in that it might be worn/weak and have reduced performance, leading to too fast a cycle, coupled with a possibly worn extractor, thus, Aggravating the problem.
Are you 100% sure it's the original barrel? What you are describing sound alot like an out of spec chamber.
If that ammo is working in another weapon then one would think it's not defective. Has this weapon even been gaged at all?
Throat erosion, firing pin protrusion, firing pin hole, etc...
Proteinshake
05-21-13, 09:27
For sure the original barrel. I was there when it was purchased new. No gauge on it yet.
I will mention this... About a month ago, I fired approximately 350-400 older Wolf steel cased with no problems. Rifle, especially the chamber has been cleaned a few times since then.
Does this make sense or is this even possible that the steel cased left something in the chamber that only reacts with Winchester 5.56 cases when heated up from burst fire?
By the way, the chamber was cleaned using Hoppes solvent, a chamber brush and q-tips after firing the Wolf.
Lacquer off the Wolf cases if they were steel. It's now baked on to the chamber walls.
CrazyFingers
05-21-13, 09:37
Lacquer off the Wolf cases if they were steel. It's now baked on to the chamber walls.
I thought this had been proven to be an urban legend?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73358
Can you post a picture of this gun so we can see if it all Colt?
Proteinshake
05-21-13, 20:37
Here's some pics. Thanks for looking.
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/ngblackjack/IMG_20130521_205858_818.jpg
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/ngblackjack/IMG_20130521_205742_994.jpg
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/ngblackjack/IMG_20130521_210435_105.jpg
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/ngblackjack/IMG_20130521_210012_271.jpg
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab60/ngblackjack/IMG_20130521_205935_777.jpg
Proteinshake
05-21-13, 20:43
Just to clarify the only non-Colt parts on this weapon are visable in the first two pics. Thanks
Just looking at it as a moot possibility in that it might be worn/weak and have reduced performance, leading to too fast a cycle, coupled with a possibly worn extractor, thus, Aggravating the problem.
I'm with Cal Crocs on this.
10k rounds, it's due for new buffer spring and extractor as cheap insurance.
Here are some possibilities that may be combining together to create an issue.
Gas port may also be eroded making it slightly overgassed.
The win ammo may also have slightly small rims, making it harder for the extractor to grip.
The extractor may be worn, reducing grip on the case.
The gun may also cycle slightly faster when heated up from burst.
There might be some minor bolt bounce that puts the buffer weights rearward in the buffer just as the auto sear trips, leading to early extraction. ( think along the lines of what the A5 buffer's internal biasing spring prevents )
****
Some further diagnosis:
What direction are ejected cases landing? 1:00? 3:00?
What buffer in this? H? Try heavier H2/H3.
I do agree it "could" be gas port erosion issue. But, it's hard to diagnose over the net.
I also "assumed" that when he checked the extractor and replaced the spring, he would have also check the extractor lip/rim.
I somewhat ruled out ammo, as he stated that it was working in a 6920 with no issues.
I'm with Cal Crocs on this.
10k rounds, it's due for new buffer spring and extractor as cheap insurance.
Here are some possibilities that may be combining together to create an issue.
Gas port may also be eroded making it slightly overgassed.
The win ammo may also have slightly small rims, making it harder for the extractor to grip.
The extractor may be worn, reducing grip on the case.
The gun may also cycle slightly faster when heated up from burst.
There might be some minor bolt bounce that puts the buffer weights rearward in the buffer just as the auto sear trips, leading to early extraction. ( think along the lines of what the A5 buffer's internal biasing spring prevents )
****
Some further diagnosis:
What direction are ejected cases landing? 1:00? 3:00?
What buffer in this? H? Try heavier H2/H3.
This gun needs its springs replaced. It also should get an H2 buffer because of the port errosion.
constructor
05-21-13, 23:00
White box are full power loads, have you tried Fed XM193 to see if they do the same. Full power loads could cause an overgas problem cycling early where the extractor slips over the rim while the case is still stuck to the chamber walls. A hot barrel will increase powder temp and pressure.
In the past I've had boxes of ammo that were dusty or dirty. Enough that the grit made the cases stick in the chamber also causing the extractor to slip over or rip the rim off.
Try cleaning the chamber and cartridges.
For what it's worth, WW is a full power load but I have found the brass to be shit over loading 20k+ rounds over the last two years.
Some lots are consistent but many are not. If the lowest common denominator to your issues is the brand, that is a clue.
Regular replacement of wearable parts is a given but when you examine thousands of cases several times each over two years and one of the brands that sticks out as being shit is WW, that is also a clue.
OP,
Do you have a throat errosion gauge and can you tell us a throat errosion reading?
Proteinshake
05-22-13, 22:44
No throat erosion gauge or any other gauge at this point. Hopefully by the weekend our agency armorer will be back and I can find these things out. I have no problem purchasing them if needed.
I have tried XM193 rounds, but it was last year, and a couple thousand rounds ago. There were no problems with them at that time.
The rifle has an H buffer.
The ejected cases land at 3 o'clock.
The original extractor actually looks fine, but I replaced it with a new Colt that I had on hand along with a Wolfe extra power extractor spring. Just to be on the safe side.
Since it has the original buffer spring, I went ahead and ordered a new one and also an H2 buffer to try out.
I appreciate everybody helping me with this problem, hopefully it's nothing serious because my alternative is one of our spare Bushmasters that I carried several years ago. If this problem seems bad, picture firing Win 5.56 in a Bushmaster chamber that's probably not a true 5.56 chamber.
Thanks guys.
If this problem seems bad, picture firing Win 5.56 in a Bushmaster chamber that's probably not a true 5.56 chamber.
:eek:That's not going to be pretty. I speak from personal experience.
Keep us posted.
I have had several brass cases fail to extract and end up stuck in the chamber of my rifle during the past couple trips to the range. The rifle is a basic stock Colt M16 Commando. Total round count for the rifle is around 9-10 thousand. Rifle is always fired wet using Slip 2000 ewl. This only happens on full auto firing when the rifle is hot, and only with Winchester 55 grain FMJ 5.56 white box.
By your writings (with alternate/fall-back Bushmaster spares) this is a duty or agency-owned weapon?
With stoppages starting under known conditions (full auto and hot) I'd have the Commando re-barreled -- you already know the barrel life, and you're starting to apply band-aids without knowing the source or proximate cause of the stoppages. You could stop shooting full auto until the rifle gets hot (humor me -- why are you doing this? Do you have a mission or job requirement to shoot full auto until the gun is hot enough to abuse the barrel in the first place?).
Everything on the Commando is going to be more problematic than the 6920 with a 14.5 or 16-inch barrel -- you are shooting a weapon with a narrower performance band due to the short barrel and dwell time.
By your writings (with alternate/fall-back Bushmaster spares) this is a duty or agency-owned weapon?
With stoppages starting under known conditions (full auto and hot) I'd have the Commando re-barreled -- you already know the barrel life, and you're starting to apply band-aids without knowing the source or proximate cause of the stoppages. You could stop shooting full auto until the rifle gets hot (humor me -- why are you doing this? Do you have a mission or job requirement to shoot full auto until the gun is hot enough to abuse the barrel in the first place?).
Everything on the Commando is going to be more problematic than the 6920 with a 14.5 or 16-inch barrel -- you are shooting a weapon with a narrower performance band due to the short barrel and dwell time.
I agree.
This gun looks like a range blaster by the lack of wear on the receivers yet is has 10K round through it?
The barrel is completely dry of oil and turning brown by high volumes of full auto fire.
I have shot several boxes from the same case of ammo through a 6920 with no problems. If this makes sense, the stuck cases only happen during burst fire and when the rifle is heated up. Semi auto firing is fine. Chamber and extractor are clean.
If it only happens in F/A, would it make sense to swap uppers with the 6920? You could try different combinations of uppers & BCGs to see if you can narrow down the culprit between barrel issues (chamber and/or gas port erosion), extractor, ammo, etc. You could also try swapping the buffer springs as that would be easy enough to try to rule out.
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Proteinshake
05-24-13, 08:52
This gun looks like a range blaster by the lack of wear on the receivers yet is has 10K round through it?
Probably 9 times out of 10 given the same facts and circumstances, this would be a true statement, unfortunately this is not one of those times. This weapon is used on a regular basis for entries, vehicle assaults, buy/busts, and other operations that we will not discuss here. Maybe my sub-par cell phone pics left out some receiver wear, but it's actually not bad given the round count. When I say "regular basis", I mean sometimes every day, sometimes several days in a row, but I definitely don't mean I use it every single day.
This weapon has also been fired mostly semi-auto with .223 practice ammo. Over the past few years, it's been mostly Hornady steel cased. If fired F/A, it's controlled 2-3 round bursts.
When I think of "range blaster", I picture a guy going with his buddies on Saturday morning spraying F/A to look cool and show off. This is not the case. None of my friends go to the range with me. Most of my time on the range is spent in the late evenings or very early morning hours when nobody but a co-worker or two is around.
Thank you for the input and I will keep you posted of the progress if you like.
There was a recall on some bad lots of Winchester ammo check your lot numbers on this as well
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