View Full Version : Do Extra Power Springs and Buffers Really Have the Same Effect?
saddlerocker
05-21-13, 21:57
Basically my question is...
Is there any reason not to run, for example, a red Springco and carbine buffer instead of an H2/H3 and USGI spring to save weight?
Im just wondering if there is anything else to consider.
Any reliability concerns?
Basically my question is...
Is there any reason not to run, for example, a red Springco and carbine buffer instead of an H2/H3 and USGI spring to save weight?
Im just wondering if there is anything else to consider.
Any reliability concerns?
Yes. A gym membership.
Oh, and not letting markm see this thread.
:p
The above is hillarious. Markm might explain that anything using a nonstandard spring is rubbish.
The rest of us might explain that you're taking about ounces of weight. Carry some ammo cans around the house once a day. You won't notice the buffer weight in a week or two.
(As a disclaimer, I do run Springco Red, and H buffers in my Carbine gas systems.)
Ok serious answer...
I don't have any hate for aftermarket springs, but I would personally rather stay with stock carbine springs. Mostly just for simplicity.
If you're trying to tame recoil, buffers should work. The weight is negligible at best and *shouldn't* feel any different to the shooter, especially since it is at the rear of the gun. Also, there are some pretty good options for adjustable gas blocks now, such as the SYRAC.
You didn't specify what you were trying to do and to what system, so I can't really be any more specific without making more assumptions than I already have.
saddlerocker
05-21-13, 22:13
I was going to add somthing about Markm in my post haha.
Everyone is always trying to shave some weight, so I think its a legit question.
My 11.5" SBR is rather ass-heavy, and apparently a bit overgassed. (DD Barrel)
Im running an H3 and Blue Springco as it is, and it runs flawlessly with Wolf/Bear ammo unsuppressed
I do run it suppressed a majority of the time.
Just trying to possibly balance it out a bit.
Plus my next build is going to be a 14.5" lightweight. Thinking about an ar15 carrier and a gas port insert or adjustable GB so I can run a carbine or H buffer with a Blue Springco
Picking up my brothers stock Bushmaster M4 profile rifle is like night and day.
My 16" gun has an optic (H1) and a Troy Alpha rail, but other than that the only weight difference should be from the M16 Carrier and H2 buffer. My MOE stock and grip might add an ounce or 2 over his standard equipment.
Everyone is always trying to shave some weight, so I think its a legit question.
My 11.5" SBR is rather ass-heavy, and apparently a bit overgassed.
Im running an H3 and Blue Springco as it is, and it runs flawlessly with Wolf/Bear ammo.
And I run it suppressed a majority of the time.
Just trying to possibly balance it out a bit.
Ok with that out now, I would say an adjustable GB (especially with a suppressor) and an H2/H3 buffer with standard spring and call it a day.
My setup is a suppressed 11.5" with H3/SYRAC/standard Carbine spring. Runs great and I can tune it to any ammo I want.
Depending on what stock you have, you would probably be able to shave more weight there than with buffers, while not screwing with reliability...
I prefer to run Springco springs and the heaviest buffer I can that will allow my rifle/carbine/SBR to function. YMMV.
saddlerocker
05-21-13, 22:25
I would have sprung for an adjustable GB or insert already, but I have a URXII rail that requires I send it out for work (or buy a bunch of tools.) Which I should do, but Haven't decided what, if anything, I want to do.
I run an IMOD stock btw
saddlerocker
05-21-13, 22:32
I prefer to run Springco springs and the heaviest buffer I can that will allow my rifle/carbine/SBR to function. YMMV.
Ok, but would you rather run a blue sprinco and H3, or or Red Springco and an H buffer?
My thinking leads me toward using the heaviest buffer with a USGI spring, only if I feel I need more resistance will I upgrade the spring.
But if going with a red springco and an H buffer saves some weight and there are no function/reliability concerns, why not
I generally run blue Springco's in carbines. I wouldn't be concerned about a little extra weight created by a buffer.
Ok, but would you rather run a blue sprinco and H3, or or Red Springco and an H buffer?
My thinking leads me toward using the heaviest buffer with a USGI spring, only if I feel I need more resistance will I upgrade the spring.
But if going with a red springco and an H buffer saves some weight and there are no function/reliability concerns, why not
Basically my question is...
Is there any reason not to run, for example, a red Springco and carbine buffer instead of an H2/H3 and USGI spring to save weight?
Im just wondering if there is anything else to consider.
Any reliability concerns?
Buffers and springs do different things.
A strong spring and a light buffer will act differently as compared to a heavy buffer and stock strength spring.
Strong/light will achieve higher peak bolt carrier speeds near battery.
This is the place you want things to happen slowly to aid extraction and minimize bolt bounce.
My goto buffer combo is H2+ CAR spring, if I can't run an A5.
H3/blue is a fine combo, especially with an SBR.
IMO, it is silly to sacrifice reliability for a few ounces off the back end of the weapon.
saddlerocker
05-21-13, 22:50
Thanks Clint, thats what i was looking for.
And I agree
I would have sprung for an adjustable GB or insert already, but I have a URXII rail that requires I send it out for work (or buy a bunch of tools.) Which I should do, but Haven't decided what, if anything, I want to do.
I run an IMOD stock btw
Yeah tools pay for themselves really quick if you like working on ARs.
As for the IMOD, I wouldn't consider that a heavy stock. Its what I have on mine. Are you sure it's not the front end that is making the rifle feel heavy? I have a hard time imagining that the rear of your rifle feels heavy when you have a suppressor and most likely a light on the other end of it.
Obscenejesster
05-21-13, 23:00
I currently run a Spikes T2 buffer with the stock spring in my BCM 16" mid. Everything runs great but I haven't really experimented with anything else in it. Should I be able to run a red Springco with the T2 buffer reliably on my set up?
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
I currently run a Spikes T2 buffer with the stock spring in my BCM 16" mid. Everything runs great but I haven't really experimented with anything else in it. Should I be able to run a red Springco with the T2 buffer reliably on my set up?
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Your going to take heat for the ST-2, but if you already have one and you're not shooting full auto, no reason to switch it. It's hard to tell from your post, but I would bet you could go to a blue spring, considering the ST-2 is slightly lighter than an H2. But it really depends on your GP size.
Straight Shooter
05-22-13, 07:12
Ive been running that T2 Spikes buffer and a red Sprinco recoil spring for about 1500 or so rounds in my LMT Defender.
Rifle has functioned 100% thus far, and it really calmed down the overall recoil/robust cycling & muzzle climb, imo.
Oh, and not letting markm see this thread.
It's too early in the morning for this springco bullshit. :rolleyes:
Obscenejesster
05-22-13, 09:43
Your going to take heat for the ST-2, but if you already have one and you're not shooting full auto, no reason to switch it. It's hard to tell from your post, but I would bet you could go to a blue spring, considering the ST-2 is slightly lighter than an H2. But it really depends on your GP size.
Whats wrong with the ST-2 buffer? I got it along with the Spikes tube and spring very cheap in a trade. I think I got it for 3 boxes of .223 ammo a few months ago. If something is wrong with it then I'll replace it.
MiamiCracker
05-22-13, 09:48
There is nothing wrong with the Spikes T-2. Around here there is not that much love for Spikes, plus there is the argument that its really not much of an improvement over the classic buffer design. I have one and never had a problem with it.
Whats wrong with the ST-2 buffer?
It doesn't function like a real buffer. It's not the end of the world, bad failiure. But it doesn't tame bolt bounce as well as an H2. (this is from high speed video footage posted on the internuts.. not random speculation)
Obscenejesster
05-22-13, 09:56
There is nothing wrong with the Spikes T-2. Around here there is not that much love for Spikes, plus there is the argument that its really not much of an improvement over the classic buffer design. I have one and never had a problem with it.
Oh okay. I thought there was something wrong with it. So if I got the Spikes tube, buffer and spring for roughly $25 then all is good.
plus there is the argument that its really not much of an improvement over the classic buffer design.
Ummm... there's no arguing it. It works WORSE than a real buffer. It's not huge, and most people wouldn't notice it. But most guys here don't settle for compromise parts. ;)
Obscenejesster
05-22-13, 10:03
Ummm... there's no arguing it. It works WORSE than a real buffer. It's not huge, and most people wouldn't notice it. But most guys here don't settle for compromise parts. ;)
Okay, so it doesn't work as well as a normal buffer. What doesn't it do as good as a normal buffer so I know whether or not to replace it.
Okay, so it doesn't work as well as a normal buffer. What doesn't it do as good as a normal buffer so I know whether or not to replace it.
It doesn't function like a real buffer.
... it doesn't tame bolt bounce as well as an H2.
Mark already covered this.
Your choice, but there are better choices.
MiamiCracker
05-22-13, 10:11
http://youtu.be/575Q0O41u5s
Check this video out. It might help you in making your decision.
Okay, so it doesn't work as well as a normal buffer. What doesn't it do as good as a normal buffer so I know whether or not to replace it.
The BCG bounces a little more of the barrel extension whenst going back into battery. Now don't get me wrong... it's not a magnificent difference.... but you can see the difference.
The thing with the Spikes buffer is this:
1. It's cheaper to make since Tungston powder is much less than the tungstion weights... and.
2. It caters to the ARFtard crowd who is affraid of the sounds that buffer weights make in the gun. :rolleyes: Nevermind the fact that actually firing a gun is VERY much louder... but that's ARF logic for you. ;)
These videos are different buffer weights with std carbine spring with one example of rifle buffer in action.
As far as the different weights...you can judge for yourself.
Video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=575Q0O41u5s)
This is a hydraulic (infamous failure) vs std buffer on full auto
Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJWvcikq0to&NR=1&feature=fvwp)
I wish they used a heavier spring to compare as well...anyone have a 1000fps camera?
http://youtu.be/575Q0O41u5s
Check this video out. It might help you in making your decision.
you beat me to it...lol sorry i type slow.
...anyone have a 1000fps camera?
I wish... I'd like to do a comparison on the A5 buffer with and without the little hipster spring installed.
saddlerocker
05-22-13, 12:00
How many fps would be needed? The new GpPro does 30fps.
Would u really need close to 1000?
I don't know jack about video tech.
How many fps would be needed? The new GpPro does 30fps.
Would u really need close to 1000?
I don't know jack about video tech.
Yeah, that's unfortunately not fast enough. It's a really nice and expensive camera. I think to even rent one is in the 1000s.
Same type that gets you the quality slow motion action from a Jerry Bruckheimer flick.
You could make a video of yourself in a run and gun competition with one of those then send it to S&W to apply for competition sponsorship. You can be a shit shot...but you'll make them look cool doing it...lol.
Upping the spring weight in order to run a lighter buffer without changing any of the gas system related parts is silly. Most aftermarket stuff fails, because reinventing the wheel mathematically is worse.
With carbines that are inherently overgassed, ADDING reciprocal weight is still what you want do to. If your 11.5" is still back-heavy with a can on it, I have the feeling you're running a needlessly heavy stock. H2/Sprinco Blue is my preferred setup, other than the VLTOR A5 kit in stock form, but I haven't had any issues with an H buffer and stock spring.
The A5 makes sense to me (indifferent about that little spring - obviously it can run without that) just because it makes better use of the RE length, and has no negative effect on OAL when used with an ACS or EMOD stock.
saddlerocker
05-22-13, 13:37
It's not rear heavy with the can btw.
BufordTJustice
05-22-13, 16:27
The BCG bounces a little more of the barrel extension whenst going back into battery. Now don't get me wrong... it's not a magnificent difference.... but you can see the difference.
The thing with the Spikes buffer is this:
1. It's cheaper to make since Tungston powder is much less than the tungstion weights... and.
2. It caters to the ARFtard crowd who is affraid of the sounds that buffer weights make in the gun. :rolleyes: Nevermind the fact that actually firing a gun is VERY much louder... but that's ARF logic for you. ;)
Mark, you know what else silences the weights inside of a buffer?
The spring inside an A5 buffer! :D
BufordTJustice
05-22-13, 16:36
OP, think of it this way:
Heavier springs increase the cyclic rate. Heavier buffers decrease the cyclic rate. Couple a substantially heavier spring with a heavier buffer and you're going to reach a point where you start INCREASING gun movement during cycling instead of decreasing it.
As others have said, run a Springco White or Blue with the heaviest buffer that your gun will function with....or go to the Vltor A5 system.
I run an A5H4 (6.8oz) buffer and std Vltor A5 spring on my BCM 14.5" middy. I have enough ass to spare that I use an LMT E-carrier as well and still it runs everything I feed it. I don't have a can.
modifying the weights and springs to shave weight is silly.
Modifying the springs and weights to have your rifle function more smoothly/reliably makes a whole lot of sense.
Correct me if I am wrong, from what I understand using a stronger spring and heavier weight will not only mitigate recoil and function more reliably, but assure that your internals last a bit longer by slowing down the action, alleviating stress on high wear parts. Especially running suppressed.
That is why I like the Vltor A5 RE & weight.
BufordTJustice
05-22-13, 18:35
Phreakish, one of Vltor's engineer's who worked on the A5, has commented on this board before. I am not sure if increasing bolt life and extractor spring life were design goals or even considerations, but ANYTHING that slows extraction and unlocking in the AR system is going to have a positive effect on bolt life.
I don't think anybody has quantified said effect, if it is even measurable. If they have, I haven't seen the data.
The sound engineering principles give me warm-fuzzies. :)
Well that sucks, I bought a ST-T2 for my MK18 I'm putting together.
I'll give it a whirl regardless and see for myself.....enough people run them with positive results that I'm not sold on it being the asinine product some paint it to be.
I will bet you all the money in my pocket that your MK18 will probably run with an H3. Why anyone would use the ST-2 is beyond me.
You can lead a horse to water.....
Well that sucks, I bought a ST-T2 for my MK18 I'm putting together.
I'll give it a whirl regardless and see for myself.....enough people run them with positive results that I'm not sold on it being the asinine product some paint it to be.
Obscenejesster
05-22-13, 20:25
I noticed that the VLTOR A5 buffer and spring is only compatible with the proprietary buffer tube. Does anyone know if the Sprinco Blue spring works with the standard Mil-Spec buffer tube?
MiamiCracker
05-22-13, 20:27
I noticed that the VLTOR A5 buffer and spring is only compatible with the proprietary buffer tube. Does anyone know if the Sprinco Blue spring works with the standard Mil-Spec buffer tube?
Yes it does
I will bet you all the money in my pocket that your MK18 will probably run with an H3. Why anyone would use the ST-2 is beyond me.
You can lead a horse to water.....
Well, I shoot regularly with guys that run both 10.3" & 11.5" SBR's using the ST-T2's.
Both run great.....so unless my eyes are lying to me, I have some basis to believe it's worth a shot.
Both those guns, and my MK18 will be running blue Sprinco Springs, so maybe that's the variable the keeps those guns running with a buffer less than an H3.
And if I decide to dump it....I dump it. It's a 30 second swap.....I'm not seeing a lot of risk here.
I have run and still run Springco springs as well. I won't argue with you as you have the answers already. Rock on!
Well, I shoot regularly with guys that run both 10.3" & 11.5" SBR's using the ST-T2's.
Both run great.....so unless my eyes are lying to me, I have some basis to believe it's worth a shot.
Both those guns, and my MK18 will be running blue Sprinco Springs, so maybe that's the variable the keeps those guns running with a buffer less than an H3.
And if I decide to dump it....I dump it. It's a 30 second swap.....I'm not seeing a lot of risk here.
the_0perator
05-23-13, 11:11
I suppose this is in the vein of this thread, but I have sort of an odd combo I will be testing out this weekend from a few left over parts. The configuration will consist of:
14.5 barrel with PWS comp
stock M4 FSB
fat boy carbine gas tube
stock buffer spring
H2 buffer
full auto BCG
Now to me the x-factor piece here is the gas tube, which I have zero experience with and understand that they are generally designed to work with adjustable gas blocks. I will be shooting 5.56 55gr Federal and am a tad concerned about the setup as far as the cycling goes. The fatty tube is already installed, so I thought I might as well experiment with it, but I have packed a few extra parts to swap on the fly if I run into issues (a stock carbine gas tube, an H buffer and a ST-T2).
You guys have any thoughts as to which setup might run best? First post so go easy on me lol
PS. the ST-T2 came with the used parts :p
Welcome, the_0perator. Who made the barrel? Colt has defined the gas port size for a 14.5" carbine per TDP, so we could probably tell if your barrel is overgassed by the manufacturer.
Back to the original question, I prefer a lighter spring (Sprinco white or Brownells CS) and heavier buffer (at least H) for carbine REs. It's much preferred over a heavy spring and light buffer - reduced cyclic rate (less bolt stress, more reliable magazine spring function), less bolt bounce, and less sensitive to spring wear.
Having said that, all I use and recommend now is the A5.
the_0perator
05-23-13, 14:07
Welcome, the_0perator. Who made the barrel? Colt has defined the gas port size for a 14.5" carbine per TDP, so we could probably tell if your barrel is overgassed by the manufacturer.
Back to the original question, I prefer a lighter spring (Sprinco white or Brownells CS) and heavier buffer (at least H) for carbine REs. It's much preferred over a heavy spring and light buffer - reduced cyclic rate (less bolt stress, more reliable magazine spring function), less bolt bounce, and less sensitive to spring wear.
Having said that, all I use and recommend now is the A5.
Hey Bruin,
Thanks for the welcome. It is indeed a Colt upper(keyhole)/barrel(C MP 1/7). As I said, the upper came assembled with this fat boy tube installed, and with heavier buffer/BCG, I'm afraid the fat boy is only going to complicate things.
As far as buffer springs, I guess the good news is I am here in Austin, so maybe I can just run over to Sprinco and pick up one of those if that is whats needed to set this thing up properly.
First day on the forum and already going to send MarkM into the red, another post mentioning both a Spikes buffer and Sprinco springs.
None the less, I appreciate the help/info Bruin.
I don't know what effect (if any) the fat gas tube has, but I'd replace it with a normal one. There are better ways to achieve its advertised benefits.
You should be fine with an H2, and if you're only shooting 5.56 I'd try an H3. A Sprinco white/blue should work fine; Brownells CS carbine action spring is a cheaper alternative that's only a few bucks. Those will probably last a lifetime (just keep them lubed to ward off rust). If you stay with the stock spring, it's a good idea to replace it every 5k rounds.
If the upgrade bug ever bites, look into the Vltor A5 and LMT Enhanced carrier. With your PWS comp, this combo is pretty much as good as it gets for smooth shooting from your Colt upper.
the_0perator
05-23-13, 17:09
I don't know what effect (if any) the fat gas tube has, but I'd replace it with a normal one. There are better ways to achieve its advertised benefits.
You should be fine with an H2, and if you're only shooting 5.56 I'd try an H3. A Sprinco white/blue should work fine; Brownells CS carbine action spring is a cheaper alternative that's only a few bucks. Those will probably last a lifetime (just keep them lubed to ward off rust). If you stay with the stock spring, it's a good idea to replace it every 5k rounds.
If the upgrade bug ever bites, look into the Vltor A5 and LMT Enhanced carrier. With your PWS comp, this combo is pretty much as good as it gets for smooth shooting from your Colt upper.
The upgrade bug is always biting Bruin......always.
I'll update after the weekend and let you know what ended up working. I'm pretty stoked about trying out this PWS too, should be nice and smooth (and much louder also since I am coming from a Vortex).
Thanks
justin_247
05-23-13, 20:28
The thing with the Spikes buffer is this:
1. It's cheaper to make since Tungston powder is much less than the tungstion weights... and.
2. It caters to the ARFtard crowd who is affraid of the sounds that buffer weights make in the gun. :rolleyes: Nevermind the fact that actually firing a gun is VERY much louder... but that's ARF logic for you. ;)
None of this is accurate. The reason Spike's uses tungsten powder is because they were attempting to imitate H&K... H&K buffers are filled with tungsten powder.
The part that Spike's got wrong is that those H&K buffers were designed for a completely different type of operating system, so they don't yield the same kind of results.
The part that Spike's got wrong is that those H&K buffers were designed for a completely different type of operating system, so they don't yield the same kind of results.
Well, the Hk 416 and MR556 use tungsten powder in their buffers.
persona non grata
05-24-13, 02:44
Spike's is good at 'borrowing' ideas from other manufacturers, but I believe their primary goal in using powdered Tungsten was to minimize costs and maximize profits.
justin_247
05-24-13, 12:05
Well, the Hk 416 and MR556 use tungsten powder in their buffers.
Didn't I just say that? It's a different operating system.
Spike's is good at 'borrowing' ideas from other manufacturers, but I believe their primary goal in using powdered Tungsten was to minimize costs and maximize profits.
You can "believe" whatever you want. That doesn't make it factual. Keep on believing, buddy... whatever makes you feel good.
Didn't I just say that? It's a different operating system.
Got it. I thought you we're referring to their roller locked guns.
While the piston driven 416/Mr are a different operating system than a DI AR, how does that affect how their buffers function?
Thanks.
I've never used non-mil spec buffer springs in an AR, but am curious what you Springco users would recommend for:
a) DD 11.5" 5.56 Carbine length with 6.5 oz buffer
b) Noveske 300 BLK Pistol length with H2 buffer
c) Rainier Arms .308 Mid-length with 8.5 oz buffer
Above are all with FA BCG's.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.