View Full Version : G34/35 not for duty use?
theblackknight
05-23-13, 22:49
I've heard some people around here claim because of the slide relief on the top exposing the barrel and insides, debris can cause problems.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i188/shooter521/misc%20guns/glock_longslides.jpg
This pistol has a small relief cut on the top, is it still GTG?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S0shnoOhgSY/Tp26mmmUtlI/AAAAAAAAAXs/8Hm349pjxxs/s1600/beretta92f.jpg
I'll answer the question with a question:
While at rest, is it possible for debris of sufficient volume to induce malfunction to enter the slide assembly of the Beretta?
Devildawg2531
05-23-13, 23:03
I woud have no concerns carrying the G34 or G35 for duty use. I find both longer than ideal for EDC.
theblackknight
05-23-13, 23:15
I'll answer the question with a question:
While at rest, is it possible for debris of sufficient volume to induce malfunction to enter the slide assembly of the Beretta?
Considering you can literally see the "wings" of the locking block from the top, I'd say no of course.:D
For those who consider the G-34/35 unsuitable for LE/duty use for the stated reason, can you provide information on any real world occurrence where this rendered the gun inoperable?
kantstudien
05-24-13, 03:44
Throw a handful of gravel/pebbles/dirt through the cutout and then shoot it and let us know if it cycles.
The reason why Glock went with the cutouts on the top of the slide was to keep the weight the same as the G17/22 slide. This way, they wouldn't have to keep a different weight recoil spring in inventory.
A heavier recoil spring could have not only prevented them from having to mill out the 34/35 slide, but it would have probably ameliorated the malfunctions in the G22 with tac light.
But no, Glock decided to come out with Gen 4 pistols instead...
Voodoo_Man
05-24-13, 05:18
I know guys who run g34s as edc, non duty and entire swat team that runs 35s on duty and no issues.
I carried a 34 off-duty for a while, but I prefer my 17. I know guys on SWAT in my area who carry 35's with no issues. Guys who inspect and maintain their firearms should have no worries. Although my duty pistol is an M&P45, I would have no hesitation carrying a 34/35 for duty use.
Devildawg2531
05-24-13, 08:23
Throw a handful of gravel/pebbles/dirt through the cutout and then shoot it and let us know if it cycles.
...
Do you frequently get gravel / pebbles in your weapon? I know a little about low crawling through mud but try to keep the gunk out of my weapon. Your concern about pebbles causing the G34 / G35 to malfunction seems either theoretical / training or a weapon maintenance issue.
William B.
05-24-13, 08:38
I've read that Bob Vogel uses a G35 as his LE duty gun, so he must not think it's too big of a deal... and he probably knows a thing or two about guns.
The G34/G35 and the Beretta are different in their cut outs. You can fit rocks, sticks, loose coins, keys, etc in the Glocks (rather easily). Not true with the Beretta.
Hell, Glock doesn't even recommend it for duty use so.....
http://us.glock.com/products/all
If you think I don't know what I am talking about, then at least listen to someone that does: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=125727&highlight=34
C4
Guns-up.50
05-24-13, 10:14
Do you frequently get gravel / pebbles in your weapon? I know a little about low crawling through mud but try to keep the gunk out of my weapon. Your concern about pebbles causing the G34 / G35 to malfunction seems either theoretical / training or a weapon maintenance issue.
Its totally irrational to assume the gun cant be dropped or fall into the dirt or mud. Yes its unlikely in most cases, but not impossible and if you have the chance to eliminate it why wouldn't you. Did you crawl through the mud with a g34/35??? A fully sealed m4 is different from a open flock.
PA PATRIOT
05-24-13, 10:35
Grant,
As a gun related retailer have you ever seen a "Plug" which covers this cut out? Reason being last year at a local gun show a Glock parts vender was selling a very light weight aluminum snap in plugs for those who carry the 34/35 as a duty gun.
The vender had a G-34 slide and a few samples and the plug seemed to snap very security (Press Fit) into the cut out. The cost was $20.00 something and the finish was only slightly darker then the Glock slide.
I don't remember the vender name or recall any manufacturers labeling on the plug.
Grant,
As a gun related retailer have you ever seen a "Plug" which covers this cut out? Reason being last year at a local gun show a Glock parts vender was selling a very light weight aluminum snap in plugs for those who carry the 34/35 as a duty gun.
The vender had a G-34 slide and a few samples and the plug seemed to snap very security (Press Fit) into the cut out. The cost was $20.00 something and the finish was only slightly darker then the Glock slide.
I don't remember the vender name or recall any manufacturers labeling on the plug.
I have not.
C4
Throw a handful of gravel/pebbles/dirt through the cutout and then shoot it and let us know if it cycles.
The reason why Glock went with the cutouts on the top of the slide was to keep the weight the same as the G17/22 slide. This way, they wouldn't have to keep a different weight recoil spring in inventory.
A heavier recoil spring could have not only prevented them from having to mill out the 34/35 slide, but it would have probably ameliorated the malfunctions in the G22 with tac light.
But no, Glock decided to come out with Gen 4 pistols instead...
Again, any real world instances you can point to where it was an issue?
I could see where this would be a legitimate concern for mil use, but the officer on the street rarely rolls around in the gravel with their gun.
The G34/G35 and the Beretta are different in their cut outs. You can fit rocks, sticks, loose coins, keys, etc in the Glocks (rather easily). Not true with the Beretta.
Hell, Glock doesn't even recommend it for duty use so.....
http://us.glock.com/products/all
If you think I don't know what I am talking about, then at least listen to someone that does: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=125727&highlight=34
C4
I'm not necessarily stumping for the 34 as a duty gun. My agency issues the 21C and I use my own personal 21SF instead. But, I do have a blue label G-34 that came with a 3.5# connector, on agency letterhead. I'd never disagree with the LAV on practical concerns either, I'd just like to know if there's ever been a recorded instance where it actually happened?
Seems like it would be low on the list of concerns overall.
theblackknight
05-24-13, 10:56
The G34/G35 and the Beretta are different in their cut outs. You can fit rocks, sticks, loose change, keys, etc in the Glocks (rather easily). Not true with the Beretta.
Hell, Glock doesn't even recommend it for duty use so.....
http://us.glock.com/products/all
If you think I don't know what I am talking about, then at least listen to someone that does: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=125727&highlight=34
C4
Grant, you silly pants, you don't have to post a link to Larry's opinion, because your opinion is usually his also. :sarcastic:
I think we know Glock dosent recomend it for duty because of lawyers. People also point out that Glock call's it a slide lock, but then also make a factory extended slide lock for some crazy reason.
Kentucky State Police use them. I don't know any however so I can't ask how they feel about them. I saw a couple of them in a chinese restaurant a couple of weeks ago and it looked like they had the old saddle pistols strapped to their hips.
NeoNeanderthal
05-24-13, 11:11
Grant, you silly pants, you don't have to post a link to Larry's opinion, because your opinion is usually his also. :sarcastic:
I think we know Glock dosent recomend it for duty because of lawyers. People also point out that Glock call's it a slide lock, but then also make a factory extended slide lock for some crazy reason.
They actually don't call it a slide lock. They refer to the take down button as the slide lock. What you are referring to is the "Slide Stop"..according to glock.
NeoNeanderthal
05-24-13, 11:30
Grant,
As a gun related retailer have you ever seen a "Plug" which covers this cut out? Reason being last year at a local gun show a Glock parts vender was selling a very light weight aluminum snap in plugs for those who carry the 34/35 as a duty gun.
The vender had a G-34 slide and a few samples and the plug seemed to snap very security (Press Fit) into the cut out. The cost was $20.00 something and the finish was only slightly darker then the Glock slide.
I don't remember the vender name or recall any manufacturers labeling on the plug.
Thats a pretty cool idea. I'd want it more than a press fit though. With the velocity the slide cycles...
In my ten years as an LEO and Operator I have always carried my 34 with no issues. I have done plenty of water ops with it. But of course when you start talking about getting mud (depending on the amount) in the slide there will always be a chance of a malfunction. That's why I always harp on my team mates to make sure pre and post operation there primary and secondary is always maintained (proper lube). I totally agree with what LAV says about the 34 but that depends in the environment that you will be operating in.
I use a lone wolf solid top slide to deal with this issue.
I think the 34 is great as a dedicated light gun, this is how I keep use it. I keep a sure fire x300 on mine. If you are adding extra length with the light I see no reason not to match it with longer site radius and barrel.
In the Hackathorne class I took Ken recounted a story of a friend working undercover who had a 34 and had a penny or dime fall in the opening and jam the gun up.
I converted a ful size .357 sig Glock 31 to the solid top lone wolf 34 with a factory Glock barrel. Awesome gun! A factory 34 is not something I would use for defensive reasons.
Rattlehead
05-24-13, 12:00
I've had brass land in/on top of the front cutout on the slide numerous times. The gun just kicked it off itself after the next shot so not a big deal.
There are numerous G34s and G35s serving in LE successfully. Debris collection in the slide gap is on the list of possibilities, but it's problem potential is usually overstated.
Deliberate experimentation on this issue is instructive.
Grant, you silly pants, you don't have to post a link to Larry's opinion, because your opinion is usually his also. :sarcastic:
Ya, we do carry the same points of view on things (even if we do not know it). Hackathorn always told me that he thought poorly of the 34 for defensive work and his reasons made sense. Then I read (like everyone else on the forum) LAV's opinion. So two of the best minds in the combat world think it is a poor choice. Hmm, is that a clue??
I think we know Glock dosent recomend it for duty because of lawyers. People also point out that Glock call's it a slide lock, but then also make a factory extended slide lock for some crazy reason.
Lawyers. Right. The gun has no safety (FYI).
C4
In my ten years as an LEO and Operator I have always carried my 34 with no issues. I have done plenty of water ops with it. But of course when you start talking about getting mud (depending on the amount) in the slide there will always be a chance of a malfunction. That's why I always harp on my team mates to make sure pre and post operation there primary and secondary is always maintained (proper lube). I totally agree with what LAV says about the 34 but that depends in the environment that you will be operating in.
The question I always want to ask is why?? What does the 34 give you that a 17 or 17L won't??? If you say accuracy, there isn't enough there to warrant the penalty. If you say capacity, that isn't true either. If you say trigger pull weight, that can be addressed with ONE part changed out.
Yesterday, I was taking out a large & heavy bag of trash. It had long loops for the draw strings. As I lifted it up (chest level) to throw it into the dumpster, the loop hooked around my Glock. As I threw the trash bag, my Glock went sailing across the road and slid to a stop. There were little rocks and debris all around it. If that had been a 34/35, how many rocks would have gotten into that channel??
Common sense dictated that I do a full function check of the gun, but what if that had been in a fight? How much time would I have had to check and clean out the gun???
So for me, this gun simply doesn't make any sense for defensive use (as the risks out way the reward).
C4
The question I always want to ask is why?? What does the 34 give you that a 17 or 17L won't??? If you say accuracy, there isn't enough there to warrant the penalty. If you say capacity, that isn't true either. If you say trigger pull weight, that can be addressed with ONE part changed out.
Yesterday, I was taking out a large & heavy bag of trash. It had long loops for the draw strings. As I lifted it up (chest level) to throw it into the dumpster, the loop hooked around my Glock. As I threw the trash bag, my Glock went sailing across the road and slid to a stop. There were little rocks and debris all around it. If that had been a 34/35, how many rocks would have gotten into that channel??
Common sense dictated that I do a full function check of the gun, but what if that had been in a fight? How much time would I have had to check and clean out the gun???
So for me, this gun simply doesn't make any sense for defensive use (as the risks out way the reward).
C4
Grant for me that's a simple answer to a simple question. I choose the 34 for the sight radius my eyes aren't as good as they use to be so the sight radius on the 34 lets me get a sight picture a little faster than a 17. Now don't get me wrong I also carry another 17 on my entry vest. Accuracy from a 34 to a 17 is pretty much the same until you start taking long shots 50 yards plus and also what type of ammo are you shooting out of it as well and even at those distances both pistols in the hands of a good shooter or operator will have similar groups. Just my .02 cents worth.
SpyderMan2k4
05-24-13, 13:27
Do you frequently get gravel / pebbles in your weapon? I know a little about low crawling through mud but try to keep the gunk out of my weapon. Your concern about pebbles causing the G34 / G35 to malfunction seems either theoretical / training or a weapon maintenance issue.
Take ECQC from SouthNarc and you'll see in a hurry how possible of an issue this can be (I.e. two people wrestling over a gun on the ground). I carry an XD and am now looking to pin the grip safety because of this. I used to think there's no reason debris could get in there and block it... after ECQC I have changed my mind on that issue, and it applies even more so to the gaping slot in the g34/35
Grant for me that's a simple answer to a simple question. I choose the 34 for the sight radius my eyes aren't as good as they use to be so the sight radius on the 34 lets me get a sight picture a little faster than a 17. Now don't get me wrong I also carry another 17 on my entry vest. Accuracy from a 34 to a 17 is pretty much the same until you start taking long shots 50 yards plus and also what type of ammo are you shooting out of it as well and even at those distances both pistols in the hands of a good shooter or operator will have similar groups. Just my .02 cents worth.
Ok, so you feel it is faster on target. I can buy that, but the question is, how much faster? What kind of numbers are you seeing?
C4
Take ECQC from SouthNarc and you'll see in a hurry how possible of an issue this can be (I.e. two people wrestling over a gun on the ground). I carry an XD and am now looking to pin the grip safety because of this. I used to think there's no reason debris could get in there and block it... after ECQC I have changed my mind on that issue, and it applies even more so to the gaping slot in the g34/35
We did a drill with LAV many years ago where you had to drag a wounded person back behind cover. We saw dirt, sticks, etc inside of guns, sights, mags, pouches, etc, etc. Doing this a few times will make you change a lot of things in regards to gun and gear setups.
C4
Ok, so you feel it is faster on target. I can buy that, but the question is, how much faster? What kind of numbers are you seeing?
C4
Grant to be honest I have never put myself on the clock to actually see how much faster so I can only estimate only a couple tenths.
SpyderMan2k4
05-24-13, 13:44
We did a drill with LAV many years ago where you had to drag a wounded person back behind cover. We saw dirt, sticks, etc inside of guns, sights, mags, pouches, etc, etc. Doing this a few times will make you change a lot of things in regards to gun and gear setups.
C4
Exactly. I kind of consider it a "you don't know what you don't know" kind of thing. Putting your gear AND yourself through the paces will reveal a lot... such as how possible it is for crap to get into your gun, and how horrible it can affect it when you need it
Grant to be honest I have never put myself on the clock to actually see how much faster so I can only estimate only a couple tenths.
Not to sound rude, but how would you know then?? Let's say you are a full half second faster. Is that still worth the risk of a gun not working?
For me it isn't.
YMMV.
C4
Not to sound rude, but how would you know then?? Let's say you are a full half second faster. Is that still worth the risk of a gun not working?
For me it isn't.
YMMV.
C4
Grant your not rude at all. I understand your point 100% most of the time when we are training I spend so much time teaching and preparing correcting our rookie and cocky operators
That when I want to use the clock we get a callout and there goes our day.
The question I always want to ask is why?? What does the 34 give you that a 17 or 17L won't???
17L has the cut out too.
Isn't CAG using G35s?
Side by side Gen 4 G17 to a gen 3 G34 I didn't notice any recoil or accuracy advantages of the G34. Might have just been a generational thing though.
I've carried a 35 for the last eight years as a duty weapon (plain clothes) and as my secondary in a SWAT role. For me it's simple, I shoot it better, especially at distance, and my PD allows me to carry it. Prior to Glocks I carried 1911's so maintenance was considerably easier. As for speed I am actually a little faster with my 23 on CSAT drills etc. but for me past 20 yards the wheels start to come off using the smaller gun. I am truly envious of guys that shoot lights out with a 19.
As for debris and what not causing a malfunction I could see it but it has never happened to me in several thousands of rounds and multiple classes. Bottom line guns are for sending bullets where you want them to go. I personally do this better with a 35. YMMV and so on an so forth.
Dave
theblackknight
05-24-13, 15:48
Hmm, is that a clue??
C4
Seem like people are dropping contrary clues to your clue. That's a clue that clues maybe tinged with personal bias. There's a difference between "this one time a dime magically caused the pistol to malfuction"and " M&P 9s have a wide spread accuracy problem". Frequency is important.
Take ECQC from SouthNarc and you'll see in a hurry how possible of an issue this can be (I.e. two people wrestling over a gun on the ground). I carry an XD and am now looking to pin the grip safety because of this. I used to think there's no reason debris could get in there and block it... after ECQC I have changed my mind on that issue, and it applies even more so to the gaping slot in the g34/35
You guys used real firearms ?
Psalms144.1
05-24-13, 16:01
Isn't CAG using G35s?In a word, no.
17L has the cut out too.
Isn't CAG using G35s?
Side by side Gen 4 G17 to a gen 3 G34 I didn't notice any recoil or accuracy advantages of the G34. Might have just been a generational thing though.
Does it? Haven't looked at a 17L in awhile.
They are running the G22 and G35.
C4
Seem like people are dropping contrary clues to your clue. That's a clue that clues maybe tinged with personal bias. There's a difference between "this one time a dime magically caused the pistol to malfuction"and " M&P 9s have a wide spread accuracy problem". Frequency is important.
You guys used real firearms ?
Not my "clues." People that have a far more experience with firearms and combat give me the clues. From a pure common sense look, it doesn't make sense to shoot one over a G17 and no one (to date) has shown proof (timed drills) that the 34/35 gives them a real advantage.
Many of the people that say "haven't had an issue" haven't spent much (or any) time wrestling in gravel, mud, etc.
If you "think" you know better, drive on (your life, not mine).
C4
In a word, no.
If the G35 was so much better than a G22, wouldn't they use them?
Another clue? :eek:
C4
Devildawg2531
05-24-13, 16:23
Its totally irrational to assume the gun cant be dropped or fall into the dirt or mud. Yes its unlikely in most cases, but not impossible and if you have the chance to eliminate it why wouldn't you. Did you crawl through the mud with a g34/35??? A fully sealed m4 is different from a open flock.
No I haven't crawled through the mud with a G34 or G35 also didn't get to use the M4 as I got out in 99 and had the A2. I do own a G34 and G24 and have never had them jammed due to pebbles - but they are mostly used for competition and not carry.
I have a G34 and a G17. I shoot just about the same with either of them so I never saw any reason to carry the larger G34. I have talked to Ken about the 34 and he definitely is not a fan.
I was unaware that Glock changed their status of the 34/35 because they were called Practical/Tactical and I have seen several Glock ads for their use as tactical team guns.
As far as CAG using G22s instead of G35s I am going to answer that by asking why they use Eotechs? (I am not in any way bashing CAG/Delta but I will say that they are not all gun guys and don't always make the decisions) I will only venture to guess that the use of the Federal Enhanced ammunition (No expanding ammo) has more to do with the choice of the .40S&W than the model of firearm they are using.
I have no dog in the fight as to which is the better choice. I have all of the models except the G35. I shoot the G22 most accurately but prefer the recoil of the G17. I wouldn't mind stuffing a bunch of shit in the slide of my G34 to prove or disprove this argument but I will still most likely use my G17. If my appointment to SWAT ever happens (budget issues) I will have no option but to use my G22.
Guys at the end of the day carry what ur comfortable with weather its for duty or everyday carry. I belive timed drills are great but paper doesn't shoot back. So if your comfortable and confident with a 34 carry it or like wise with a 17 or any gun of your chossing .
Don Robison
05-24-13, 18:17
Kentucky State Police issues them, there are a few SWAT teams around the country using them, Glock sells them with 5.5lb connectors in the LEO/Mil program. I wouldn't cry if I were required to use one as an issued gun although it wouldn't be my choice just because of the size.
I had a 34 for a while but sold the upper and used the lower for an RMR G17.
Ok my .02 I have had plenty of Beretta's cease functioning on the range with little to no debris involved, anyone who has extensively used the M9 knows you can easily see the locking lugs from the top of the slide and the tolerances will allow crud of sufficient size to cause failure into the slide. The only way to fix this is disassembly.
When the Glock 34/35 is in battery there is no real access for dirt/debris into the locking mechanism. Yes debris can get into the area around the barrel but if you are in an environment where shit is getting in your holster, slide, sights, etc wouldn't you clear this out with any firearm to ensure your weapon is somewhat free of failure causing debris prior to firing? You could have shit in the barrel just as easily as something in the top of the slide. Which would be more detrimental?
Ultimately all of these arguments are what if's, people are saying it's a bad idea because it's possible, but the only real instance cited is a second or third hand account of a penny or dime getting in the top of the slide and creating a stoppage.
I'm just trying to play devils advocate here, not start a war. If I lived in a colder climate where I wore more clothing I would not hesitate to carry my 35 daily.
JP
Ok my .02 I have had plenty of Beretta's cease functioning on the range with little to no debris involved, anyone who has extensively used the M9 knows you can easily see the locking lugs from the top of the slide and the tolerances will allow crud of sufficient size to cause failure into the slide. The only way to fix this is disassembly.
When the Glock 34/35 is in battery there is no real access for dirt/debris into the locking mechanism. Yes debris can get into the area around the barrel but if you are in an environment where shit is getting in your holster, slide, sights, etc wouldn't you clear this out with any firearm to ensure your weapon is somewhat free of failure causing debris prior to firing? You could have shit in the barrel just as easily as something in the top of the slide. Which would be more detrimental?
Ultimately all of these arguments are what if's, people are saying it's a bad idea because it's possible, but the only real instance cited is a second or third hand account of a penny or dime getting in the top of the slide and creating a stoppage.
I'm just trying to play devils advocate here, not start a war. If I lived in a colder climate where I wore more clothing I would not hesitate to carry my 35 daily.
JP
The Hackathorn story is legit (heard it many time from Ken himself). So NO third person BS.
To date, we have had anyone really get their gun in situation where debris could get in there (at least not in this thread).
Since pistols can not work for a multitude of reason (maintenance, stupid user tricks, broken parts, weak springs, etc) why add one more thing that could possible go wrong.
Again, if the 34 made me go from shooting drills in HALF their time or hitting targets 100yds with ease, then I would say rock on, but that just isn't the case.
C4
Nephrology
05-24-13, 20:29
I have never been particularly interested in the 34s/35s. Beyond the slide cut out, I don't think they are worth the 100 dollar premium they command over the 17/22s. Shot them plenty of times, never could really tell the difference but admittedly it wasn't clocked. Honestly that is more of an issue for me than the slide cut, but I also agree with Grant - seems like another place that debris can lodge. I do not personally see that being a problem for me, but I also don't have a crystal ball.... if I did, I probably wouldn't carry my gun all the time!
Glad y'all like them I guess.
kantstudien
05-24-13, 22:54
Not sure what people are looking for as far as a "real world" story here. Do you want someone to say that their buddy had to fight a deranged killer in an abandoned rock quarry and the G34/35 wouldn't function after tussling in a gravel pit which resulted in him getting killed? Alternate ending to "Dirty Harry?"
People are responsible for their own decisions, and I'm sure in 99.9% of circumstances the G34/35 would be fine for whatever they encounter.
But if we based our decisions on what happens 99.9% of the time, we probably wouldn't need to carry a gun because how often do we get into gunfights? I'm pretty sure I've gone to the grocery store over 10,000+ times without having to get in a shootout, so should I only carry when my spidey-sense is tingling?
Point being we prepare for the worst case scenario, and when you do need a gun it will be at the worst possible time in the worst possible circumstances. Why not stack the deck in your favor?
ClearedHot
05-24-13, 23:30
As far as CAG using G22s instead of G35s I am going to answer that by asking why they use Eotechs? (I am not in any way bashing CAG/Delta but I will say that they are not all gun guys and don't always make the decisions)
The EOTech issue has been brought up before. The Tier 1 guys use the older 551/552 EOTechs because it works properly with the higher top rail on the HK416. The rest of SOCOM uses the 553 with the built in riser.
Heres a 17, 34, 35 and a 17L side by side for those that had slide/port questions.
Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2
SpyderMan2k4
05-25-13, 00:41
You guys used real firearms ?
Simunitions
Who keeps their loose change in their ALS holster? :blink: Not only does my duty rig for my 34 completely cover the slide cut out but I have been in serveral scuffles in the dirt and sometimes mud, coming home to clean my rig finding my firearm in 100% working condition, and free from obstructions. Yes, I shoot the 34 a bit better than my 17. As does almost everyone shooting 3-gun around here. I have nearly 31,000 through my duty/competition 34and debris has never been an issue, even when rolling around on the ground in some silly IDPA COFs. I respect LAV's opinions but I also give merit to the fact that Bob Vogel and Dave Sivigny chose the 34. (yes, I know he is no longer with Glock.) Vogle just happens to be one of the best handgun shooters in the world right now, and I am sure he has the numbers to back it up.
I started looking at the 35's about a year ago. We carry G22's. I first considered the G17 because if carpal tunnel. Surgery has really helped with that.
The OAL of the gun with X300 in the ALS holster is what got me to make the switch. I didn't see a down side. Until reading this thread I'd never thought of debris in my pistols action. I still don't think it is likely to happen. But it's a possibility I'd not considered.
The G34/G35 and the Beretta are different in their cut outs. You can fit rocks, sticks, loose coins, keys, etc in the Glocks (rather easily). Not true with the Beretta.
Hell, Glock doesn't even recommend it for duty use so.....
http://us.glock.com/products/all
If you think I don't know what I am talking about, then at least listen to someone that does: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=125727&highlight=34
C4
They might not suggest it in that chart but they sell blue label 35's with 5.5# pound triggers which speaks louder than the chart.
When the Glock 34/35 is in battery there is no real access for dirt/debris into the locking mechanism. Yes debris can get into the area around the barrel but if you are in an environment where shit is getting in your holster, slide, sights, etc wouldn't you clear this out with any firearm to ensure your weapon is somewhat free of failure causing debris prior to firing? You could have shit in the barrel just as easily as something in the top of the slide. Which would be more detrimental?
Ultimately all of these arguments are what if's, people are saying it's a bad idea because it's possible, but the only real instance cited is a second or third hand account of a penny or dime getting in the top of the slide and creating a stoppage.
JP
It is second hand but from an excellent source. :D
What if's can be a PITA and sometimes they are just from nay sayers or people who just want to argue. This is not the case. Grant, Ken and Larry are trying to give us information to keep us safe. I run what if scenarios through my head often. I'm sure many of you do too. I just need to decide if the 35 is worth it for me and my folks. We only bought a pair of guns and holsters to try so not really a huge investment.
It is interesting there is only one known example of this malfunction.
But I also sold a pair of SF 60 rounders because of info Larry shared here on m4c. They always worked fine for me. But I decided it wasn't worth the worry.
The good news is the pair of 35's still hold their value well and the holster will be good to go as dedicated sim gun holsters. The sim guns will not lock up in our 17/22 holsters because the bore is not centered like in the real guns.
Anyone have a few G17T's the wanna trade for a pair of slightly used 35's :D
Kentucky State Police issues them, there are a few SWAT teams around the country using them, Glock sells them with 5.5lb connectors in the LEO/Mil program. I wouldn't cry if I were required to use one as an issued gun although it wouldn't be my choice just because of the size.
I had a 34 for a while but sold the upper and used the lower for an RMR G17.
It went to a good loving home :dance3:
I know the debris thing is a "possibility" but my 35 has run like a champ in muddy/dirty/wet/debris filled conditions that choked the shit out of my teammates Sig P226s (which do not have a slide cut out). I carry a 35 on duty and have no problem with it (not that I have a choice anyways).
Not sure what people are looking for as far as a "real world" story here. Do you want someone to say that their buddy had to fight a deranged killer in an abandoned rock quarry and the G34/35 wouldn't function after tussling in a gravel pit which resulted in him getting killed? Alternate ending to "Dirty Harry?"
People are responsible for their own decisions, and I'm sure in 99.9% of circumstances the G34/35 would be fine for whatever they encounter.
But if we based our decisions on what happens 99.9% of the time, we probably wouldn't need to carry a gun because how often do we get into gunfights? I'm pretty sure I've gone to the grocery store over 10,000+ times without having to get in a shootout, so should I only carry when my spidey-sense is tingling?
Point being we prepare for the worst case scenario, and when you do need a gun it will be at the worst possible time in the worst possible circumstances. Why not stack the deck in your favor?
Yeah, but you could look at that both ways. If someone shoots the 34/35 better, wouldn't that also be "stacking the deck in his favor"? You could argue, and it has been argued, that a couple of tenths don't make a difference. I don't know whether that's true or not but I do know that fights/violent encounters each have a life of they're own; they're unpredictable. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I certainly see the other side as well.
And am I wrong or has the 35 been the most reliable Glock in .40?
specopsscout
05-26-13, 01:47
My experience seems to run contrary to the suggestions listed here. I carried a Glock 35 daily for a little over eight years, both on and off duty. It survived a few high volume training courses during that time, as well as countless range training sessions, some of which occurred in the sandy, dusty and windy Fort Dix ranges. It was unfailingly reliable, during that period. I found that I personally shot it faster and more accurately then the Glock 22 it replaced, which I had previously carried for five years. It also functioned perfectly with a few different weapon mounted lights, and I carried it for the last few years with a light attached as a result.
While I understand the hypothetical possibility that it could have become disabled from debris entering the pistol through the top of the slide, this was never my experience carrying the pistol seven days a week.
theblackknight
05-26-13, 08:11
Who keeps their loose change in their ALS holster?
I managed to get a pretty sizable hunk of gravel into a ALS/SLS and locked the gun in requiring disassembly of the holster, fun times. This rock however was too big to do anything to a 34.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
It's an admittedly remote possibility that a holstered sidearm will pick up debris sufficient to cause malfunction. Still, I don't see a need to go with a 34/35 instead of a 17/22. I see this as a situation where a very small "con" is enough to overrule an even smaller "pro".
There are a lot of very experienced folks running G34/G35 as duty guns--particularly when x300's are mounted. The pistol is reasonably protected when in a good holster like the Safariland 6354DO.
A very experienced senior SOF NCO who has battled many of our Nation's foes and who has the distinction of having used 9mm, .40, and .45 Auto pistols in combat during various phases of his career wrote the following superb analysis discussing pistol calibers recently:
“Not getting into the weapons transition issues from frame design to frame design (it's the reason I love to hate the Glock), the fact of the matter is that the recoil on the G23 crosses the magic line of running the shit out of your pistol. Allow me to explain... Most of the guys mentioned that they can handle the reduced size of the 19 and the recoil increase over the G17 is acceptable. Most of us have also determined that this does NOT cross over to the .40 cartridge. Guys with a firm handle on recoil manipulation can use the G22 and G35 with acceptable results. However when you go down to G26's and G23's, the juice is not worth the squeeze. The recoil is now noticeably effecting times and it's measurable. If you can't effectively control recoil and are wasting time allowing your pistol to settle between shots then this is all a wash and means nothing to you, but if you can apply the fundamentals effectively you will quickly see that you can't run a sub compact 9 or a compact .40 worth a shit. So a decision to accept a larger pistol in order to have an acceptable recoil impulse based upon caliber must be made. The smallest 9mm Glock recoil that I will accept is the G19 and I will not go below the G22 when bumping up to .40.”
SpyderMan2k4
05-27-13, 16:18
It's an admittedly remote possibility that a holstered sidearm will pick up debris sufficient to cause malfunction. Still, I don't see a need to go with a 34/35 instead of a 17/22. I see this as a situation where a very small "con" is enough to overrule an even smaller "pro".
Personally, I'm less concerned with stuff getting in there while the gun is in the holster, and more concerned with the possibilities once the gun comes out of the holster.
Personally, I'm less concerned with stuff getting in there while the gun is in the holster, and more concerned with the possibilities once the gun comes out of the holster.
Agree. Though I have seen pebbles get into certain holsters and lock the gun in there, what gets into the gun when it is out and dropped into Lord knows what is what concerns me.
C4
I carry one everyday I'm at work, and sometimes off work in a crossbreed. I love it. I'll probably buy it when they replace it with a gen4.
There some "what if's" with the opening in the top of the slide, which is apparent as it seems people have kinda made a big deal about it so far.
Guess what, any gun can fail. That's why you either carry a back up, or accept the possibility of it happening.
I shoot my 35 better than any gun I've shot, probably because of the time I've spent with it on the range.
In my holster there is .1% chance of anything getting into the slide area, and if it winds up on the ground in a gravel pit quarry because I dropped it....well...I'll either be dead or grabbing for my 27....
I know Kentucky State Police issues the G 35. Of the troopers I work with they have had no issues with the 35 but down to a man almost they have all went to the G22. I have never packed a 35, have shot them plenty with no improvements over the 22. I see no advantage to them over a 22 unless competition. Especially considering they add more weight and size.
Slvr Surfr
05-29-13, 14:41
G34 on duty here. No issues. I also try not to keep loose change in my safariland holster......... ;)
Between my G17 and G34, I shoot my G34 better. I also find it slightly smoother to shoot as well as like the slightly longer sight radius.
I know of another large local agency that issues the G35 for patrol usage. I have not yet heard of any issues causing them to malfunction from debris entering the slide.
While I can see that it is possible, I have yet to see it occur. Maybe someone would be willing to do a G34/35 torture test in the future????
PA PATRIOT
05-29-13, 15:19
The Philadelphia Police Department allows/issues the 35 for duty use for those wishing to carry a .40 caliber.
G34 on duty here. No issues. I also try not to keep loose change in my safariland holster......... ;)
Between my G17 and G34, I shoot my G34 better. I also find it slightly smoother to shoot as well as like the slightly longer sight radius.
I know of another large local agency that issues the G35 for patrol usage. I have not yet heard of any issues causing them to malfunction from debris entering the slide.
While I can see that it is possible, I have yet to see it occur. Maybe someone would be willing to do a G34/35 torture test in the future????
I print consistently better groups with my 34 than with any of my other pistols. (TRP excluded)
I'm still waiting for the rest of the story as to how someone's pocket change got into their G34/35. Piggy bank doing double-duty as a gun-hiding spot...?
Not sure what people are looking for as far as a "real world" story here. Do you want someone to say that their buddy had to fight a deranged killer in an abandoned rock quarry and the G34/35 wouldn't function after tussling in a gravel pit which resulted in him getting killed?
How about a mud/sand/gravel test like other service weapon candidates go through? Anyone know of such a test having been done by a reputable outfit? (YouTube commandos need not apply.) I'd take that over anyone's theory-crafted opinion (even my own... :laugh:).
At one time, I owned one of every flavor of .40 Glock. The 35 was easily the most controllable of them: better balance/weight distribution, softer shooting. Shot-to-shot times at longer distances (~15+ yds) were demonstrably faster. Running a G35 through a sustained, rapid course of fire with multiple targets (think Rogers' "blast drill") is easier than with a G22 and a whole lot easier than with a G23.
How about a mud/sand/gravel test like other service weapon candidates go through?
I'll do it tomorrow if I have time.....
There some "what if's" with the opening in the top of the slide, which is apparent as it seems people have kinda made a big deal about it so far.
Guess what, any gun can fail. That's why you either carry a back up, or accept the possibility of it happening.
We carry and own guns because of the off chance we have to use it. We are hoping to never have to, and most likely never will have too. I am speaking mostly from the civilian perspective, but I know Officer involved shootings are very rare and even most officers will go through their career never shooting any one.
We love and carry Glocks because of their reputation for reliability. Why carry one that based on physics is less reliable? It seems contrary to why we carry Glocks.
Just like carrying a gun for worst case scenario, why wouldn't you carry the most reliable one for worst case scenario in regards to the reliability of that hand gun.
I don't see the reason to leave anything to chance here.
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 09:03
I've seen a G34 go through some abuse. I think unless you plan to wrestle in a gravel pit daily that this is "what-iffing" to an extreme.
I've seen a G34 go through some abuse. I think unless you plan to wrestle in a gravel pit daily that this is "what-iffing" to an extreme.
I am inclined to agree with you. I will have to go through my crawl and brawl drill with my Glock 34 a few times and see if I pick up any debris that fouls the pistol.
If I find any change in the holster, I am going to keep it. :D
I have a G34, some ammo, sand, silt, a rock quarry, and support folks that are capable of breaking anything. I'm open to suggestions on some non-destructive test protocols that would contribute to this thread.
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 09:29
I have a G34, some ammo, sand, silt, a rock quarry, and support folks that are capable of breaking anything. I'm open to suggestions on some non-destructive test protocols that would contribute to this thread.
Tactical rolls? I'm certain you could jam it up if you try hard enough but that's true of anything. Something realistic.
I tried the change thing with my 35, couldn't get any in there. The 34, I could stuff enough in there to buy a cup of coffee. What got me thinking though was what about stuff behind the trigger? I was able to wedge a nickel behind it and then a dime between the bottom of the trigger and the trigger guard.(not at the same time)
Totally unscientific test btw. The juice is still worth the squeeze for me and the longer slide Glocks, but I am staying out of penny arcades.:D
We carry and own guns because of the off chance we have to use it. We are hoping to never have to, and most likely never will have too. I am speaking mostly from the civilian perspective, but I know Officer involved shootings are very rare and even most officers will go through their career never shooting any one.
We love and carry Glocks because of their reputation for reliability. Why carry one that based on physics is less reliable? It seems contrary to why we carry Glocks.
Just like carrying a gun for worst case scenario, why wouldn't you carry the most reliable one for worst case scenario in regards to the reliability of that hand gun.
I don't see the reason to leave anything to chance here.
Because if I shoot the 34/35 better than the 17/22, I might prefer carrying that and taking the minute chance that something will enter the slide and lock the gun up. And you can't tell me that even a very small difference in accuracy or speed is inconsequential because no one knows the answer to that question as it will vary from circumstance to circumstance. It's the 1911 question; why carry a gun that holds eight rounds and is by today's standards finicky? The answer is because if it's the gun you shoot best, maybe that's the most important consideration when you balance everything. Also IIRC, the 35 has been the most reliable 40 cal Glock with a WML. So if I have to or want to carry a 40 cal Glock with a WML that also becomes part of the equation. It's an equation that doesn't have the same right answer for everyone and each person has to strike the balance for himself or herself.
I'll do it tomorrow if I have time.....
I have a G34, some ammo, sand, silt, a rock quarry, and support folks that are capable of breaking anything. I'm open to suggestions on some non-destructive test protocols that would contribute to this thread.
Tactical rolls? I'm certain you could jam it up if you try hard enough but that's true of anything. Something realistic.
What's the mil std for mud/sand/gravel testing? I can get my hands on a G35 that I would be wiling to sacrifice on the altar of science.
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 11:28
What's the mil std for mud/sand/gravel testing? I can get my hands on a G35 that I would be wiling to sacrifice on the altar of science.
Dude, I couldn't tell ya. Go wild with it :D
What's the mil std for mud/sand/gravel testing? I can get my hands on a G35 that I would be wiling to sacrifice on the altar of science.
I'm just going to make mud balls and slap it in the cutout. I will video it. I will also check that I don't clog the muzzle before firing.....
Can't do it today I have to take my grandmother shopping.....:o
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 11:36
This is shaping to be a pretty awesome thread. Thanks, guys.
This is shaping to be a pretty awesome thread. Thanks, guys.
If this goes off without a hitch, I'm going to be pissed I didn't bring it to the Vickers advanced handgun class due to being ridiculed by LAV. If I would have brought it, I might have out shot NickDrack......:D
Can't do it today I have to take my grandmother shopping.....:o
Take her shooting. She can help with the test. ;)
(You're a good boy.)
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 11:45
If this goes off without a hitch, I'm going to be pissed I didn't bring it to the Vickers advanced handgun class due to being ridiculed by LAV. If I would have brought it, I might have out shot NickDrack......:D
Damn, I need a good class and some heckling.....
Take her shooting. She can help with the test. ;)
(You're a good boy.)
It's 95 degrees out and she's 81 and a stone cold liberal..... NO :fie:
SWATcop556
05-30-13, 11:54
Never had an issue with the 34 and I shoot it quite well. I choose the 17 as a duty weapon for one main reason over the 34. With my X300U attached I like the shorter barrel and slide for contact in your face shots. The light acts as a standoff device of sorts (like a breaching shotgun) and aids in reliability. I have made a 34 with a light malfunction shooting contact shots on a dummy wearing clothing. Not so with the 17. I wouldn't sweat too much if I was mandated to carry a 34 but the key is to know the limitations of the platform.
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 11:55
OK.......I need to know. How are the Gen4 34s running with WMLs attached?
OK.......I need to know. How are the Gen4 34s running with WMLs attached?
I can't answer that but I have NEVER fired my Gen 3 34 without an attached light (TLR1). Zero malfunctions. I did have some light primer strikes on some 124gr. IMI military ammo. That's all.
theblackknight
05-30-13, 14:34
I glad this went in the right direction, dam near like I knowingly set a trap:D ,because Ken H. has also mentioned how "we can take a Glock pistol, dribble some sand down in there, and it channels that down into the action, it'll shut the gun down"
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/9101_254744471334575_925685782_n.jpg
Which really seems more probable, sand from the butt area of the gun getting into the back of the slide, or something sizeable getting onto the top of the front of the slide?
I've seen a G34 go through some abuse. I think unless you plan to wrestle in a gravel pit daily that this is "what-iffing" to an extreme.
But what if..........:dirol:
I tried the change thing with my 35, couldn't get any in there. The 34, I could stuff enough in there to buy a cup of coffee. What got me thinking though was what about stuff behind the trigger? I was able to wedge a nickel behind it and then a dime between the bottom of the trigger and the trigger guard.(not at the same time)
Totally unscientific test btw. The juice is still worth the squeeze for me and the longer slide Glocks, but I am staying out of penny arcades.:D
I keep my change in my pocket.
I'm just going to make mud balls and slap it in the cutout. I will video it. I will also check that I don't clog the muzzle before firing.....
Can't do it today I have to take my grandmother shopping.....:o
She could hold the camera. And call 911 if necessary.
This is shaping to be a pretty awesome thread. Thanks, guys.
I look forward to Cory's video with grandma as narrator.
I glad this went in the right direction, dam near like I knowingly set a trap:D ,because Ken H. has also mentioned how "we can take a Glock pistol, dribble some sand down in there, and it channels that down into the action, it'll shut the gun down"
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/9101_254744471334575_925685782_n.jpg
Which really seems more probable, sand from the butt area of the gun getting into the back of the slide, or something sizeable getting onto the top of the front of the slide?
Is there a link for that video?
theblackknight
05-30-13, 15:21
Yes sir, great clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ViI2UWFKg
Littlelebowski
05-30-13, 15:46
I glad this went in the right direction, dam near like I knowingly set a trap:D
You're a professional internet troll, of course it was a trap :D I'm sure we'll see this at doodieproject with all of the other guys patting your back soon.
That being said, still a damned good thread.
theblackknight
05-30-13, 16:04
Here's the untimate troll
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2592/4182917960_c94d62fc60_b.jpg
No slide cut, no grip channel.
You're a professional internet troll, of course it was a trap :D I'm sure we'll see this at doodieproject with all of the other guys patting your back soon.
That being said, still a damned good thread.
I'm not linking this one, they are a easily excitable, horny bunch and the hands start to wonder:D
Guinnessman
05-30-13, 16:43
I absolutely love my G34 and for some reason this thread makes me want to buy a Gen 4 G35. Great thread, and hopefully one of you guys abuses your G34 or 35 for forums sake.:D
Yes sir, great clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ViI2UWFKg
Thanks.
That was a good video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYrSFRkue3Y
i don't care either way.
just posting this video because it's another commentary on another gun that has slide cuts.
theblackknight
05-30-13, 17:33
1st 20 seconds of that video.
"bottom line up front, you sold out fast" LOL
I know several cops toting G35s. No issues reported by them.
I'd be worried that all those lightening cuts and slide serrations could have sharp edges that could slice open a life jacket during a survival situation.
Or sever parachute lines during a jump...
Devildawg2531
05-30-13, 21:24
OK.......I need to know. How are the Gen4 34s running with WMLs attached?
My gen 4 G34 is batting 100% through several IDPA matches, with duty ammunition and bulk pack, and with / without my SureFire X300. No malf of anykind and no BTF through estimating 1000 rounds.
Kentucky State Police use them. I don't know any however so I can't ask how they feel about them. I saw a couple of them in a chinese restaurant a couple of weeks ago and it looked like they had the old saddle pistols strapped to their hips.
Nicholasville PD just switched to Glock 35's after numerous issues with the Springfield XD.
Dan
Damnit, now what thread on doodie am I going to read from the patrol car tonight to keep me entertained?
I glad this went in the right direction, dam near like I knowingly set a trap:D ,because Ken H. has also mentioned how "we can take a Glock pistol, dribble some sand down in there, and it channels that down into the action, it'll shut the gun down"
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/9101_254744471334575_925685782_n.jpg
Which really seems more probable, sand from the butt area of the gun getting into the back of the slide, or something sizeable getting onto the top of the front of the slide?
Damnit, now what thread on doodie am I going to read from the patrol car tonight to keep me entertained?
There is always my fat guy sponsorship thread! BILLBOARD!! :lol:
I've heard some people around here claim because of the slide relief on the top exposing the barrel and insides, debris can cause problems.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i188/shooter521/misc%20guns/glock_longslides.jpg
This pistol has a small relief cut on the top, is it still GTG?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S0shnoOhgSY/Tp26mmmUtlI/AAAAAAAAAXs/8Hm349pjxxs/s1600/beretta92f.jpg
That is different :eek:
I have a question, how exactly is dumping handfuls of sand, dirt or anything realisticly evaluating, or telling me anything about the reliability of my firearm?
Was that the business name one? If it was can I buy the name Israeli Dynamic Instinctive Operational Tactics?
There is always my fat guy sponsorship thread! BILLBOARD!! :lol:
Was that the business name one? If it was can I buy the name Israeli Dynamic Instinctive Operational Tactics?
It's under its own heading about Sponsorship Idea.........and I'm pretty big but I think that would be 3 lines even on my back!
EzGoingKev
06-02-13, 12:58
Here is Costa's M&P modified by Salient Arms -
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KBKkwlBs5N8/Uat9aKPxAVI/AAAAAAAAFw8/zU5w2HVmHaU/s800/Costa-Ludus-ATEi-MP-Long-Slide1.jpg
and Kyle Lamb's also modified by Salient Arms -
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nbRHuhnuBb4/Uat9aNX6A6I/AAAAAAAAFxE/2IX6thk8rS0/s800/20130602-IMG_1575.jpg
Now I am not a fanboy or make my decisions based on what others are doing but I do find it interesting that these two guys are shooting pistols with all kinds of cutouts.
Does anyone know if these guys are only using these for competition or classes?
theblackknight
06-02-13, 13:43
I don't know how they use them, but I wouldn't turn down a free payola pistol either. Haters gone hate.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
KiloSierra
06-02-13, 15:41
I have a question, how exactly is dumping handfuls of sand, dirt or anything realisticly evaluating, or telling me anything about the reliability of my firearm?
As a police officer it can tell me if I get in a very personal discussion with a fine, upstanding "citizen" over the relative merits of the finer points of law if the gun will reliably go bang if the trigger's pulled if said discussion happens in say a construction sight with lots of loose dirt and/or gravel or other similar locations.
My department issued G35's for around ten years with the standard 4.5lb trigger. The lightening slot on the slide never caused any problems in service or when me and another officer tested ours to see if it caused problems. The only issues we had in our informal debris test were also duplicated in with a regular G22. Our qualifying scores did go down noticably when we replaced them with G22 RTF2's. They went down again when the G22's were replaced with Gen 4 G21's. Now if I could say that the G35's and G22 RTF2's had been reliable and trouble free.
Upon information and belief, no SME has the lock on the best way to do things or any absolute truths. And they will usually be the first to admit it.
It's all about context of use, and the cost:benefit calculations you make.
I too, am po-po. My point is, I can take virtually ANY handgun, pick up a handful of debris and use it to prohibit the gun from fuctioning. Purposely filling something with dirt tells me nothing. Possibilitys of a way a firearm can stop running are endless, its probability that I am worried about. And with the amount of comptition shooters rolling around in the dirt not having any issues, I'd say i am safe. Also, I carry a 19 as a backup if there were that rare occurence.
As a police officer it can tell me if I get in a very personal discussion with a fine, upstanding "citizen" over the relative merits of the finer points of law if the gun will reliably go bang if the trigger's pulled if said discussion happens in say a construction sight with lots of loose dirt and/or gravel or other similar locations.
My department issued G35's for around ten years with the standard 4.5lb trigger. The lightening slot on the slide never caused any problems in service or when me and another officer tested ours to see if it caused problems. The only issues we had in our informal debris test were also duplicated in with a regular G22. Our qualifying scores did go down noticably when we replaced them with G22 RTF2's. They went down again when the G22's were replaced with Gen 4 G21's. Now if I could say that the G35's and G22 RTF2's had been reliable and trouble free.
I went to the range and shot my Glock 34 yesterday. The range is an old rock quarry with some vegetation mixed in. There was a lot of loose aggregate where I shot and I wound up with sand, dirt, grass and other debris in the pistol.
I performed my "Crawl and Brawl" drill with my Glock 34 ten times and shot a total of 437 rounds. I ruined one pair of pants, one shirt, one belt and scuffed the toes of my boots down to the leather. My elbows and knees look like hamburger. The Glock 34 ran without a hitch.
I was unable to find any loose change though.......................
SWATcop556
06-03-13, 23:02
I was unable to find any loose change though.......................
Then your test was invalid. :jester:
SeriousStudent
06-03-13, 23:57
.....
I was unable to find any loose change though.......................
Two words: "Metal detector".
On a more serious note, I'm hunting down a G17L through GSSF, and skipping the issue entirely.
KiloSierra
06-04-13, 06:56
I too, am po-po. My point is, I can take virtually ANY handgun, pick up a handful of debris and use it to prohibit the gun from fuctioning. Purposely filling something with dirt tells me nothing. Possibilitys of a way a firearm can stop running are endless, its probability that I am worried about. And with the amount of comptition shooters rolling around in the dirt not having any issues, I'd say i am safe. Also, I carry a 19 as a backup if there were that rare occurence.
That's entirely true which is why a realistic test like taking a gun with the slide closed and a magazine inserted and crawling around on the ground or throwing the gun on the ground or throwing a handful of dirt on the gun is needed. Putting a pistol with the slide locked back and no magazine in a bucket of dirt and shaking it around or sprinkling dirt in a empty magwell is not realistic.
Guns-up.50
06-04-13, 08:00
I too, am po-po. My point is, I can take virtually ANY handgun, pick up a handful of debris and use it to prohibit the gun from fuctioning. Purposely filling something with dirt tells me nothing. Possibilitys of a way a firearm can stop running are endless, its probability that I am worried about. And with the amount of comptition shooters rolling around in the dirt not having any issues, I'd say i am safe. Also, I carry a 19 as a backup if there were that rare occurence.
To me its not that the 34/35 with fail certainly, its the thought that the pistol has a better probability of failing due to debris compared to their sealed counter parts. I am sure man shooters have used 34/35s with no issues, but for me its increased probability. htat steers me away.
To me its not that the 34/35 with fail certainly, its the thought that the pistol has a better probability of failing due to debris compared to their sealed counter parts. I am sure man shooters have used 34/35s with no issues, but for me its increased probability. htat steers me away.
Correct. Many have said that they "shoot them better," but no data yet on what "better" looks like. If you are faster with it, how much? A tenth? If you are more accurate with it, how much? 1/4 @ 25yds?
To me, its kind of like the BH Serpa holster. Most people key in on the fact that you are using your finger to release the gun which in turn creates a good opportunity for you to put your finger into the triggerguard. For me, that isn't my main concern with this holster. It is the fact that I have seen rocks get in behind the button and lock the gun into the holster!
So when choosing a holster, gun, etc one must review the positives and negatives and decide if the increased risk is worth it.
More than 10yrs ago, I read about the fact that a round can cook off inside of a chamber of an AR15/M16. Though I had never seen it and didn't know anyone (personally) that had witnessed it, the thought was still there. Fast forward a couple years. I am at a carbine class talking to the instructor after just doing 3 mag dumps. The weapon was on safe and my hands were on top of the stock. Weapon was in between my two feet (single point sling). My AR went off right in front of the instructor. The XM855 round had cooked off. By being aware of my muzzle, I was not hurt.
To this day, I tell this story to anyone attending one of my classes. Not because I think it will happen, but that ANYTHING can happen and you must always be aware of where your muzzle is pointing.
C4
As they say, "Shit happens."
Penny, nickel and a quarter
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G34_Coin.jpg
Two pebbles.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G34_Rock.jpg
Stick
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G34_Stick.jpg
That is different :eek:
Yes, very much so. You cannot fit loose coins, pebbles or sticks between the slide and the barrel.
C4
Here is Costa's M&P modified by Salient Arms -
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KBKkwlBs5N8/Uat9aKPxAVI/AAAAAAAAFw8/zU5w2HVmHaU/s800/Costa-Ludus-ATEi-MP-Long-Slide1.jpg
and Kyle Lamb's also modified by Salient Arms -
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nbRHuhnuBb4/Uat9aNX6A6I/AAAAAAAAFxE/2IX6thk8rS0/s800/20130602-IMG_1575.jpg
Now I am not a fanboy or make my decisions based on what others are doing but I do find it interesting that these two guys are shooting pistols with all kinds of cutouts.
Does anyone know if these guys are only using these for competition or classes?
Fiber optic sites are fragile too, they are not combat sites. Both of those guns look like tacti-cool game/class guns for fan boys.
I was just in a 3-day pistol class where another students fiber optic front site went down.
Reading through this thread and seeing all the people who don't care or don't think it will happen to them all I can say is "You can point a horse to water......"
On a more serious note, I'm hunting down a G17L through GSSF, and skipping the issue entirely.
What issue are you skipping with the 17L? It too has the cut out.
Fiber optic sites are fragile too, they are not combat sites. Both of those guns look like tacti-cool game/class guns for fan boys.
Surprisingly, the Dawson FO front that I have had on my G17 for two years now is still wearing it's factory FO. Even CCW'd for the better part of last year with a VG2 and it still has yet to break. I dig em.
Kind of hoping it would break so I would have an excuse to try the green FO.
What issue are you skipping with the 17L? It too has the cut out.
Surprisingly, the Dawson FO front that I have had on my G17 for two years now is still wearing it's factory FO. Even CCW'd for the better part of last year with a VG2 and it still has yet to break. I dig em.
Kind of hoping it would break so I would have an excuse to try the green FO.
Slip of the nail clippers when your cutting your nails next to your gun........
LightningFast
06-04-13, 14:47
I was just in a 3-day pistol class where another students fiber optic front site went down.
That's like saying the escalator went down. They're still useable without the fiber.
That's like saying the escalator went down. They're still useable without the fiber.
Indeed. We can argue the merits of a FO sight vs. something like a tritium sight for defensive use, but the FO rod failing really isn't that big of a deal. I had one fail on me during a match and while I certainly would have preferred to have a nice glowing red dot in my front sight I was able to finish the match just fine without it.
The point is not wether it can still be used after it fails, but if it makes sense to use it a manner that has a higher likely hood of failure. (duty)
For instance it might not make sense to build an escalator outside where it would be more prone to failure, even if it still can be used after it fails. A stair case won't fail, and is easier to use than a broken escalator.
But some people are just lazy and would want escalators everywhere, wether or not it really makes sense, they just want easier.
This thread has clearly demonstrated that the value of reliability is a very subjective. To those who want to use competition gear to protect your life and the life of others, power on, but I am not onboard. Losing a competition isn't a big deal, losing a loved one is, as is not being able to perform in the line of duty.
I personally put a very high value on knowing my shit is laced tight and I have taken all reasonable steps to assure my gun is not going down in a fight.
And lastly there is lots of talk of coins and rocks, but how about just dropping the thing in mud? Seems the most likely scenario. I know it won't lock up my 17, how about your 34? Unlike dry objects that can be shaken out or just dumper out, this scenario would require you to field strip your gun and wipe off the barrel and inside of the slide. Have fun with that while you are taking fire.
The point is not wether it can still be used after it fails, but if it makes sense to use it a manner that has a higher likely hood of failure. (duty)
For instance it might not make sense to build an escalator outside where it would be more prone to failure, even if it still can be used after it fails. A stair case won't fail, and is easier to use than a broken escalator.
But some people are just lazy and would want escalators everywhere, wether or not it really makes sense, they just want easier.
...
Sorry, but a FO rod falling out (thus leaving the sights 100% functional still) is nowhere near the same thing as running the risk of debris causing a pistol to malfunction. Would you advocate not using tritium sights because the tritium vial may be dislodged?
To those who want to use competition gear to protect your life and the life of others, power on, but I am not onboard. Losing a competition isn't a big deal, losing a loved one is, as is not being able to perform in the line of duty.
I personally put a very high value on knowing my shit is laced tight and I have taken all reasonable steps to assure my gun is not going down in a fight.
This is precisely why I carry my 35. I may only get one shot and I want the weapon I can shoot the best with. Even with a potential malfunction from debris in the slide the 35 will still fire at least once. I take pretty good care of my carry/work gear but "stuff" still happens and I realize that. That being said I, personally. perform better with the 35, and I am not looking to survive a gunfight, I'm looking to dominate it.
If you shoot a 17/22 better, rock on, I don't, at least at 25 yards and further.
LightningFast
06-04-13, 19:02
The point is not wether it can still be used after it fails, but if it makes sense to use it a manner that has a higher likely hood of failure. (duty)
For instance it might not make sense to build an escalator outside where it would be more prone to failure, even if it still can be used after it fails. A stair case won't fail, and is easier to use than a broken escalator.
But some people are just lazy and would want escalators everywhere, wether or not it really makes sense, they just want easier.
This thread has clearly demonstrated that the value of reliability is a very subjective. To those who want to use competition gear to protect your life and the life of others, power on, but I am not onboard. Losing a competition isn't a big deal, losing a loved one is, as is not being able to perform in the line of duty.
I personally put a very high value on knowing my shit is laced tight and I have taken all reasonable steps to assure my gun is not going down in a fight.
What?
So the F.O. breaking, which we have agreed does not hinder the performance of the pistol, could lead to losing a loved one? How so?
Sounds like you're just making stuff up to purposely distinguish yourself as "tactical" and never be associated with the "competition" crowd, for arbitrary reasons.
I am still talking about the 34 as a whole. Not just FO sites. The 34 is a competition gun.
The FO is a total aside in reference to the two M&Ps shown. My point was those two guns had other comp features like the FO site and IMO are not combat guns.
As a side note I would not try distinguish myself from gamers, I shoot USPSA, so I AM a competitive shooter. I just use the right tool for the right job.
The point is not wether it can still be used after it fails, but if it makes sense to use it a manner that has a higher likely hood of failure. (duty)
For instance it might not make sense to build an escalator outside where it would be more prone to failure, even if it still can be used after it fails. A stair case won't fail, and is easier to use than a broken escalator.
But some people are just lazy and would want escalators everywhere, wether or not it really makes sense, they just want easier.
This thread has clearly demonstrated that the value of reliability is a very subjective. To those who want to use competition gear to protect your life and the life of others, power on, but I am not onboard. Losing a competition isn't a big deal, losing a loved one is, as is not being able to perform in the line of duty.
I personally put a very high value on knowing my shit is laced tight and I have taken all reasonable steps to assure my gun is not going down in a fight.
And lastly there is lots of talk of coins and rocks, but how about just dropping the thing in mud? Seems the most likely scenario. I know it won't lock up my 17, how about your 34? Unlike dry objects that can be shaken out or just dumper out, this scenario would require you to field strip your gun and wipe off the barrel and inside of the slide. Have fun with that while you are taking fire.
Then you would be smart enough to carry a back up gun. Or maybe your shit is laced so tight you cant.....don't know...
Personally, I'd rather carry a G35 than a 1911. And many many Officers carry 1911's..
Rayrevolver
06-06-13, 06:33
Do most of you guys run the Maritime Spring Cups in your carry weapons? For $18 seems like a no-brainer. If not, why not?
EDIT: I just read something about a guy with a G17 out boating. Got pistol wet but not underwater he says. He decides to shoot and gets light primer strikes. It got me thinking about this thread and what risks people are willing to accept. In my mind, the G34/G35 seem like reliable weapons, but I understand the G17 reduces any possible chance of FOD'ing your gun. Charge us $18 more for Glocks and make the maritime cups standard. Problem solved.
SpyderMan2k4
06-06-13, 07:57
This is precisely why I carry my 35. I may only get one shot and I want the weapon I can shoot the best with. Even with a potential malfunction from debris in the slide the 35 will still fire at least once. I take pretty good care of my carry/work gear but "stuff" still happens and I realize that. That being said I, personally. perform better with the 35, and I am not looking to survive a gunfight, I'm looking to dominate it.
If you shoot a 17/22 better, rock on, I don't, at least at 25 yards and further.
I can't help but think getting mugged and taken to the ground (where the debris is) is a more likely scenario than needing to take a defensive shot at 25 yards or more
Littlelebowski
06-06-13, 08:00
I can't help but think getting mugged and taken to the ground (where the debris is) is a more likely scenario than needing to take a defensive shot at 25 yards or more
I think worrying about shooting proficiency and physical fitness are both far more relevant to the real world than what-iffing about the slide cuts on a G34/G35. For those of you what-iffing on this, are you maintaining your ground fighting proficiency in case of WHAT IF?
I think worrying about shooting proficiency and physical fitness are both far more relevant to the real world than what-iffing about the slide cuts on a G34/G35. For those of you what-iffing on this, are you maintaining your ground fighting proficiency in case of WHAT IF?
This! If your fighting on the ground a pistol may not be your best tool. That's why I carry a small sturdy fixed blade on my weak side.
SpyderMan2k4
06-06-13, 09:42
I don't disagree. My my point was more that in a defensive gun, I personally will take any gain in reliability over a slightly better score when shooting 25 yard bulls.
Robert Vogel has publicly stated he runs a G35 w/fiberoptic front sight on duty as a police officer. Other LE officers have stated the same in this thread. Many other VERY serious and experienced professional end-users run the G34/G35 for both CONUS LE duty and OCONUS military/PSD assignments. The G34/G35 have demonstrated reliability in these roles.
Interesting read pulled from another thread:
Navy contract for testing, Berreta M9 closed top slide.
http://www.justpistols.co.uk/dolphin_real.htm
They do say this was in response to the slide breaking, not foreign objects locking it up.
Robert Vogel has publicly stated he runs a G35 w/fiberoptic front sight on duty as a police officer. Other LE officers have stated the same in this thread. Many other VERY serious and experienced professional end-users run the G34/G35 for both CONUS LE duty and OCONUS military/PSD assignments. The G34/G35 have demonstrated reliability in these roles.
Not a lot of LE and .Mil know what they are doing either (as you know). STI 2011's anyone? ;)
Fibers are a no go for no light shooting. They are also extremely fragile. Not a huge deal if it is your secondary weapon or if you have laser grips on the gun though.
Very few (and I mean very few) can actually measure the difference between a 17/22 and a 34/35. So again, why do it? Is the juice worth the squeeze. Not to me and many others that know far more than I.
C4
You are right that not all LE or mil personnel know what they are doing with firearms. However, the folks I know who are using the G34/G35 on duty tend to be the dialed in gun guys in their organizations. And certainly Vogel knows what he is doing with a pistol...
You are right that not all LE or mil personnel know what they are doing with firearms. However, the folks I know who are using the G34/G35 on duty tend to be the dialed in gun guys in their organizations. And certainly Vogel knows what he is doing with a pistol...
I can point you to people that are experts in their field that will advise you that anyone using fibers and a 34/35 are brain dead.
No skin off my nose what people use, but I just wonder what their thought process was.
C4
Not a lot of LE and .Mil know what they are doing either (as you know). STI 2011's anyone? ;)
Fibers are a no go for no light shooting. They are also extremely fragile. Not a huge deal if it is your secondary weapon or if you have laser grips on the gun though.
Very few (and I mean very few) can actually measure the difference between a 17/22 and a 34/35. So again, why do it? Is the juice worth the squeeze. Not to me and many others that know far more than I.
C4
I am no SME, but I have trained several hundred LEO and a few thousand civilians over the past 15 years. I have used night sights on duty pistols and I prefer a good set of black sights over night sights if I have a flashlight available. I haven't seen anyone use fiber sights at night and I don't have any night fire experience with them myself. I can see where they might be fragile.
It's funny you should mention not seeing much of a difference between the Glock 17/22 and Glock 34/35 pistols. I am faster and score better on the El Presidente drills with my Glock 17 than with my Glock 34. It's a dead tie between my Glock 19 and Glock 34. I use a level II holster and magazine pouch with snap down flaps and usually score between 5700 and 6200 on the drills, so I don't think there is that much of a disadvantage with a smaller pistol. My scores on LEO qualification courses of fire aren't any better with the larger pistols either.
I don't see a big advantage carrying the larger size pistols for duty use. I can see a disadvantage for non-SWAT LEO when it comes to carrying the pistol for hours on end while seated in a marked squad car or in a covert car conducting surveillance for hours on end. As far as problems with debris fouling a pistol with a relief cut on top of the slide, I haven't see it and defer to the SMEs.
In his classes, Vogel talks about his preferences for fiberoptics on all his pistols, including duty and CCW; his classes are quite outstanding and worth taking if you have not done so: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128143.
In his classes, Vogel talks about his preferences for fiberoptics on all his pistols, including duty and CCW; his classes are quite outstanding and worth taking if you have not done so: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128143.
Thanks for the link. The thread is definitely worth reading. I agree with a lot of what was said about grip, stance and trigger control. I will have to try some night fire exercises with the fiber sight.
In his classes, Vogel talks about his preferences for fiberoptics on all his pistols, including duty and CCW; his classes are quite outstanding and worth taking if you have not done so: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=128143.
I have read it. Fibers work if you using a light behind them. Not so much with a weapon mounted. So can you make them work? Sure. Is that optimal? Not for me.
On top of that, fibers are fragile creatures.
YMMV.
C4
Vogel also mentioned that some FO's are fragile, which is why he uses the Warren model front sight that provides more retention and protection than many other fiberoptic front sight bases. He stated he has no problems with his FO sights at night when running his duty G35 with a WML.
I am still talking about the 34 as a whole. Not just FO sites. The 34 is a competition gun.
The FO is a total aside in reference to the two M&Ps shown. My point was those two guns had other comp features like the FO site and IMO are not combat guns.
As a side note I would not try distinguish myself from gamers, I shoot USPSA, so I AM a competitive shooter. I just use the right tool for the right job.
The 34 is exactly like my carry gun, in every way, with a different slide. Mag release, trigger.. That is really it.
Sights are sights, for this argument it is not limited to the G34. There are countless threads on FO vs black vs front/rear night sights vs front only night sights.
It should boil down to the cutouts. They are physically capable of causing problems. The odds of that happening is up to the person carrying the gun. I personally can't say that it would bother me too much but I do not open carry and there is a fair amount of protection for that slide cut how I carry.
Vogel also mentioned that some FO's are fragile, which is why he uses the Warren model front sight that provides more retention and protection than many other fiberoptic front sight bases. He stated he has no problems with his FO sights at night when running his duty G35 with a WML.
The rod can still come out or break in the Warrens (have seen it as we have stocked them in the past). No big deal (as I kind of expect it, but they fail just like other ones).
I have an M&P 5L with Fiber front. Stuck my X300 on it and just cleared some pitch black rooms. The front sight is black. So unless there is some trick that I am unaware of, this is a no go.
C4
This thread somewhat reminds me of the interminable arguments for/against Glock butt-plugs.
After 8 pages on this thread, and after owning and using a Gen 3 G34 for 5 years (primarily for IDPA and carry in a Blade-Tech Nano IWB-so it's been reasonably unexposed to the elements), using the OEM "-" connector and a NY1 spring, with Warren Tactical sights, I'm convinced that there is little real chance of environmentally-induced malfunctioning due to the slide top cut-out. I've also discussed this with the regional Glock LE rep, who relayed to me that most foreign material admitted quickly just drops down to the receiver dust cover area, causing no operational drama.
I like the balance provided by the G34, and what I perceive as the enhanced accuracy potential due to the increased sight plane. I find the G34 just as easy to shoot strong-hand and weak-hand only as my G19s.
While I admit that there's certainly a possibility of malfunction(s) caused by foreign material entering via the slide top cut-out, in actual use it appears to be virtually a total non-issue.
If I was likely to be in an environment with persistant/pervasive high velocity sand/dirt/mud/particulate matter with sufficient/protracted exposure times where the slide would likely be exposed to such, I'd either cover the slot with 100-MPH tape and call it good, or simply use a G17/G19.
I think that those concerned with the problem have had such concerns effectivelly negated by the empirical expereince of those whom have actually used, and used on a protracted basis their G34s.
If you shoot better with a G34, or simply prefer it to a G17, I see no reason not to select it for duty use.
Best, Jon
This thread somewhat reminds me of the interminable arguments for/against Glock butt-plugs.
After 8 pages on this thread, and after owning and using a Gen 3 G34 for 5 years (primarily for IDPA and carry in a Blade-Tech Nano IWB-so it's been reasonably unexposed to the elements), using the OEM "-" connector and a NY1 spring, with Warren Tactical sights, I'm convinced that there is little real chance of environmentally-induced malfunctioning due to the slide top cut-out. I've also discussed this with the regional Glock LE rep, who relayed to me that most foreign material admitted quickly just drops down to the receiver dust cover area, causing no operational drama.
I like the balance provided by the G34, and what I perceive as the enhanced accuracy potential due to the increased sight plane. I find the G34 just as easy to shoot strong-hand and weak-hand only as my G19s.
While I admit that there's certainly a possibility of malfunction(s) caused by foreign material entering via the slide top cut-out, in actual use it appears to be virtually a total non-issue.
If I was likely to be in an environment with persistant/pervasive high velocity sand/dirt/mud/particulate matter with sufficient/protracted exposure times where the slide would likely be exposed to such, I'd either cover the slot with 50-MPH tape and call it good, or simply use a G17/G19.
I think that those concerned with the problem have had such concerns effectivelly negated by the empirical expereince of those whom have actually used, and used on a protracted basis their G34s.
If you shoot better with a G34, or simply prefer it to a G17, I see no reason not to select it for duty use.
Best, Jon
I hear what you are saying. My mind isn't changed one bit as I have gotten rocks, dirt, etc in my guns with just aggressive range drills.
My guess is that PD's and SO's will continue to issue such guns UNTIL there is one incident of an OIS where the gun malfunctioned in a fight do to foreign matter being lodged in there. Then, people will say; "hmm never thought that would happen." I will just smile and link back to this thread.
In reference to your butt plug comments, people would NEVER own a Glock without one of these in their gun. Why? For the odd chance that the gun is turned upside down and sand/dirt gets in there. How many people have actually seen this occur AND have it locked a Glock up? I have not, but I understand that "Shit Happens" and so why not spend the few dollars to remove this possibility??? Common sense right? This is why we do PM's on our carry guns, use factory mags, shoot good ammo, clean and lube our guns, etc etc. Why do we do all of this??? To Minimize risk.
C4
Lot's of folks run the Glock butt plugs to aid re-loading, rather than for FOD...
Lot's of folks run the Glock butt plugs to aid re-loading, rather than for FOD...
Small percentage compared to the ones that run it for fear of something getting in there. In fact, I am willing to bet that the MAJORITY of the Glock owners in the US have no idea that a plug can actually allow for a smoother reload.
C4
theblackknight
06-06-13, 17:14
Fibers arnt for night shooting. If you lose the fiber, what do you have left? The sights that have always been there. I'm guessing we don't really know how and where fibers are useful. That's the problem with consulting someone who dosent use something, and therefor wouldnt be able to speak for them, only against.
As for the brain dead comment, you are "friends" with certain people who have certain personal preferences. Likewise, there are other people out there is similier resumes and dont hold the same opinions.
[grant speek]This is what's called a clue[grantspeek/]
If you can remember to change your gear's batteries, you can swap in a new fiber.
I can point you to people that are experts in their field that will advise you that anyone using fibers and a 34/35 are brain dead.
No skin off my nose what people use, but I just wonder what their thought process was.
C4
I think worrying about shooting proficiency and physical fitness are both far more relevant to the real world than what-iffing about the slide cuts on a G34/G35. For those of you what-iffing on this, are you maintaining your ground fighting proficiency in case of WHAT IF?
I think we got a winner johnny...
Fibers arnt for night shooting. If you lose the fiber, what do you have left? The sights that have always been there. I'm guessing we don't really know how and where fibers are useful. That's the problem with consulting someone who dosent use something, and therefor wouldnt be able to speak for them, only against.
Fibers appear to be faster in daylight than most any other sighting system (less RDS). They are also more fragile than most any other sight made. This means that they are best utilized in the gaming world.
As for the brain dead comment, you are "friends" with certain people who have certain personal preferences. Likewise, there are other people out there is similier resumes and dont hold the same opinions.
[grant speek]This is what's called a clue[grantspeek/]
To be honest, I don't know anyone that share my "friends" backgrounds, shooting ability, gun knowledge and knowledge of firearms history. HK didn't consult with the people you reference to build the 416 and HK 45. So in "grantspeak" that is a clue.
If you can remember to change your gear's batteries, you can swap in a new fiber.
Changing out fibers in a gun fight? Really? We aren't talking about changing out a missing fiber on the range are we???
C4
Wow "brain dead"?
Reference sights I have broken more night sights (2 mepro's) than FO sights (0 all Dawson).
I came out of my coma and I am currently using the CAP sights on my training and duty 35's.:p
Wow "brain dead"?
Reference sights I have broken more night sights (2 mepro's) than FO sights (0 all Dawson).
I came out of my coma and I am currently using the CAP sights on my training and duty 35's.:p
All things break. Generally when Triitium vials break it was because someone hammered them into the gun (didn't use a sight pusher).
I like the CAP sights as well.
C4
Bottom line is, shit can go wrong with any weapon system. I don't care what handgun you choose to use, as long as you can run it when the chips are down.
If you lose sleep over the small cut out on the slide, don't use the damn gun. If you don't, and you prefer the 34/35, use the damn gun.
You can "what if" crap all day, for every gun and every situation. At the end of the day you've got to hope for the best, train for the worst and move on with your life.
OR you could make a big deal out of a small slide cutout....whatever floats your boat I guess.
Bottom line is, shit can go wrong with any weapon system. I don't care what handgun you choose to use, as long as you can run it when the chips are down.
If you lose sleep over the small cut out on the slide, don't use the damn gun. If you don't, and you prefer the 34/35, use the damn gun.
You can "what if" crap all day, for every gun and every situation. At the end of the day you've got to hope for the best, train for the worst and move on with your life.
OR you could make a big deal out of a small slide cutout....whatever floats your boat I guess.
Agree. What this discussion (and all other discussions on the forum are about) is making sure that people know the positives and negatives about a gun or piece of kit.
Had a customer walk in today open carrying in a Serpa. I educated him about all the pitfalls of this holster. He appreciated it.
Point, people are running the G34/35 without ever thinking the possible problems they could run into. Knowledge is power. From there, you can make a decision that best fits your needs.
C4
Agree. What this discussion (and all other discussions on the forum are about) is making sure that people know the positives and negatives about a gun or piece of kit.
Had a customer walk in today open carrying in a Serpa. I educated him about all the pitfalls of the this holster. He appreciated it.
Point, people are running the G34/35 without ever thinking the possible problems they could run into. Knowledge is power. From there, you can make a decision that best fits your needs.
C4
YOU MEAN SERPA'S ARE BAD!?! I kid I kid.
Grant totally agree with those points. Educated discussion is what makes this such a great place to visit.
Regarding the broken sights, it was the front sight on a Kimber Warrior (I Know :bad:, had to finally send it to the Springfield Custom shop to get the fleas out of it), so I can't say as to how they were installed. I picture a spider monkey with an eight pound sledge.
theblackknight
06-06-13, 18:15
Completely incorrect on the gaming aspect. If the fiber falls out, does that magically take away your ability to sight the pistol? No. You won't even notice it, or at least I didnt. Which is why no one is talking about changing fibers in a fight but you.
It seems the people with LE experience chiming in this thread who actually carry the 34/35 greatly outweighs those who don't have any but think they know better anyways.
Fibers appear to be faster in daylight than most any other sighting system (less RDS). They are also more fragile than most any other sight made. This means that they are best utilized in the gaming world.
To be honest, I don't know anyone that share my "friends" backgrounds, shooting ability, gun knowledge and knowledge of firearms history. HK didn't consult with the people you reference to build the 416 and HK 45. So in "grantspeak" that is a clue.
Changing out fibers in a gun fight? Really? We aren't talking about changing out a missing fiber on the range are we???
C4
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I have shot an entire USPSA match with the fiber missing from a 35. Not all that different from stock sights when you look at it.
Forgive me for being the smartass that I am...but thread like this do make me laugh and remember one thing that I was taught a long time ago-"it's a mechanical devise that can and WILL FAIL at some point and it was made as fast as possible by the lowest bidder."
It all boils down to this-decide what works best for you, run it, train on it, and live with it. You are allowed to change your mind and go a different direction.
In the end it's the software NOT the hardware that will get the job done.
theblackknight
06-06-13, 19:54
"it's a mechanical devise that can and WILL FAIL at some point and it was made as fast as possible by the lowest bidder."
You gotta love those team leader's and their extensive hand-me-down knowledge of the military procurement process.
Actually that came from a second generation farmer when a group of people started the "John Deere VS IHC" debate. Same rules apply tho
Needless to say he won the argument with that line.
theblackknight
06-06-13, 20:24
Actually that came from a second generation farmer when a group of people started the "John Deere VS IHC" debate. Same rules apply tho
Needless to say he won the argument with that line.
I would hate to "transition to secondary" on that tip!
http://patentpending.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/capture1006200482147_am.jpg
MountainRaven
06-07-13, 00:25
Here's my question: If the Glock 34/35 is less reliable than the Glock 17/19/22/23... does that mean it's still more reliable than a 1911? (While being lighter than a 1911, with a higher capacity and drop-in parts replacement.)
;)
Earlier in the thread, there was a discussion of potential FOD entering the cut-out on the G34/35 slide:
As they say, "Shit happens."
Penny, nickel and a quarter
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G34_Coin.jpg
Two pebbles.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G34_Rock.jpg
Stick
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Glock/G34_Stick.jpg
This got me thinking about the possibilities of FOD ingress on other handgun designs with open areas and it is indeed a potential issue, as illustrated below:
Penny and quarter
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Quarterandpenny_zpsaed16709.jpg
Three pebbles
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Pebbles_zpsdf087dac.jpg
Stick
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Stick_zpsd0a40e7b.jpg
Gum wrapper
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Gumwrapper_zps72d1eaf8.jpg
Ensure your holster is of an adequate design to protect your handgun and be sure to inspect your firearm and holster for any potential debris prior to re-holstering, especially if you have been rolling around in an environment encrusted with items like small rocks, dirt, or twigs, as well as if you have shoved your handgun into a pocket that might have been filled with potential FOD.
Many of those things would also fit behind a trigger making the gun (Glock) totally unusable.
As far as more reliable vs. a 1911, most definitely in my experience. I have documented almost every round I've shot the last 7 years, and there are way more ticks in the malfunction column for the old slab sides.
Damn, don't you know Revolvers are foolproof Doc?
Earlier in the thread, there was a discussion of potential FOD entering the cut-out on the G34/35 slide:
This got me thinking about the possibilities of FOD ingress on other handgun designs with open areas and it is indeed a potential issue, as illustrated below:
Penny and quarter
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Quarterandpenny_zpsaed16709.jpg
Three pebbles
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Pebbles_zpsdf087dac.jpg
Stick
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Stick_zpsd0a40e7b.jpg
Gum wrapper
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Gumwrapper_zps72d1eaf8.jpg
Ensure your holster is of an adequate design to protect your handgun and be sure to inspect your firearm and holster for any potential debris prior to re-holstering, especially if you have been rolling around in an environment encrusted with items like small rocks, dirt, or twigs, as well as if you have shoved your handgun into a pocket that might have been filled with potential FOD.
theblackknight
06-07-13, 12:36
I think this has all been a misunderstanding.
Back in the mid 90's, Glock made a special run of 34/35's that where going to specified FFL's with indoor ranges as rental guns. These glocks were coin operated for easy use on the range, complete with cables attached to the lanyard loop just short enough so the gun never left the booth.They had to scrap the program after a guy who, wanting things to end but too cheap to pay for a whole box of ammo, decided to strangle himself with the cable instead.
Penny and quarter
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Quarterandpenny_zpsaed16709.jpg
WickedWillis
06-07-13, 12:43
Here's my question: If the Glock 34/35 is less reliable than the Glock 17/19/22/23... does that mean it's still more reliable than a 1911? (While being lighter than a 1911, with a higher capacity and drop-in parts replacement.)
;)
Uh oh, lol Here it comes....... I agree with your point though, I love the G34's I have shot.
Holy shit. Thanks to this thread I just found 75 cents stuck in the slide cut out of my 35, you know what that means??????
Basically a free bag of Cheez-its out of the vending machine...
Us brain dead folks love cheez-its....lol
P.S. everyone knows a Para Ordinance 1911 is way more reliable than a 34/35.....duh, no slide cut out.....
I don't have to worry about coins getting stuck in my 35, if I have any spare change I'm buying a donut...
Completely incorrect on the gaming aspect. If the fiber falls out, does that magically take away your ability to sight the pistol? No. You won't even notice it, or at least I didnt. Which is why no one is talking about changing fibers in a fight but you.
It seems the people with LE experience chiming in this thread who actually carry the 34/35 greatly outweighs those who don't have any but think they know better anyways.
I have to agree with Grant on this one about the sights...I've snapped a few Fiber Optic Front Sights from rough treatment, most likely due to these sights having less metal. If the fiber optic falls out, for myself, it is useable but harder to see than a solid front sight.
I would say that a RMR/Delta Point is WAY more fragile that a Fiber Optic or normal front sight - but a lot of folks are going that way.
Given the folks running G35's with RMR's I would say that they are after dead nuts speed and accuracy.
For that role the chance of debris is limited - in the same manner that in most holsters the debris is a small chance.
I've locked up BHP's and Sig226's crawling in muck, I pretty much took my M&P45 out of commission with sand at a 2 gun match.
Anything can happen - the trick is to balance your performance requirements with the offsetting downsides if your gear can fail -- as everything man-made will fail eventually.
I pocket carry a Smith Airweight - I just make sure that my pocket is otherwise clean.
I mean if your that concerned with debris - it could get in the trigger and fire the gun right ;)
If your in a grappling match and your handgun goes tits up - beat the ****er to death with the gun...
...........I pocket carry a Smith Airweight - I just make sure that my pocket is otherwise clean.
I mean if your that concerned with debris - it could get in the trigger and fire the gun right ;)
If your in a grappling match and your handgun goes tits up - beat the ****er to death with the gun...
I like the way you think.
How is this thread not locked yet? Any educational value it had is long gone.
MountainRaven
06-08-13, 12:30
How is this thread not locked yet? Any educational value it had is long gone.
Are you kidding me?
Some of the best posts in this thread are from yesterday (DocGKR) and today (KevinB).
KiloSierra
06-08-13, 13:06
Earlier in the thread, there was a discussion of potential FOD entering the cut-out on the G34/35 slide:
This got me thinking about the possibilities of FOD ingress on other handgun designs with open areas and it is indeed a potential issue, as illustrated below:
Penny and quarter
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Quarterandpenny_zpsaed16709.jpg
Three pebbles
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Pebbles_zpsdf087dac.jpg
Stick
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Stick_zpsd0a40e7b.jpg
Gum wrapper
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/Gumwrapper_zps72d1eaf8.jpg
Ensure your holster is of an adequate design to protect your handgun and be sure to inspect your firearm and holster for any potential debris prior to re-holstering, especially if you have been rolling around in an environment encrusted with items like small rocks, dirt, or twigs, as well as if you have shoved your handgun into a pocket that might have been filled with potential FOD.
I wish I had taken a picture of the Glock an officer showed up to qualify with a couple of years ago with a dime stuck between the slide and barrel in the ejection port.
I wish I had taken a picture of the Glock an officer showed up to qualify with a couple of years ago with a dime stuck between the slide and barrel in the ejection port.
That's impressive :lol:
The G34/G35 and the Beretta are different in their cut outs. You can fit rocks, sticks, loose coins, keys, etc in the Glocks (rather easily). Not true with the Beretta.
Hell, Glock doesn't even recommend it for duty use so.....
http://us.glock.com/products/all
C4
Eh, unless there is a lot more specific language from Glock out there, I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that link implies the 34/35 is not recommended (by Glock) for duty use.
That page looks like pretty generic marketing material to me, not something to take too literally. I.E., are you also saying Glock doesn't recommend the G21 for personal defense based on that? G17 not recommended for female shooters? "Enthusiasts" should consider the G37 but not the G21? There doesn't seem to be too much rhyme or reason behind some of the choices, it's mostly just highlighting "we have something for everyone".
Correct. Many have said that they "shoot them better," but no data yet on what "better" looks like. If you are faster with it, how much? A tenth? If you are more accurate with it, how much? 1/4 @ 25yds?
I wanted to illustrate my statement that at distance I shoot the G35 much better than the G22. I shot the below strings of fire in the order of the pictures and the first group was cold and shot as soon as I got to the range. Let me say that I picked a very good day to take pictures as I can count on one hand the number of times I have kept them all in the black at 25 yards cold. I normally drop at least 2 rounds in the 8 or 7 ring. My grouping wasn't great but I will definitely take it. My shooting sequence was draw fire one round and re-holster, take a breath and repeat. I was in no hurry but timed my strings with the G35 being 1 minute 52 seconds and with the G22 2 minutes 3 seconds.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/deuce9166/g35b825.jpg (http[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/deuce9166/media/g35b825.jpg.html)
Then I switched out the slide and barrel on an old G22 I have. I wanted to use the same frame for both runs to try and take trigger pull weight out of the equation. This is an older gun with the non loaded chamber indicator extractor. The reason I picked this particular G22 is that it has the old Trijicon sights that are the same profile as the CAP's I am now using on my G35's.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/deuce9166/5fdb85c7-c4bb-4064-be36-1b9f1e49d789.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/deuce9166/media/5fdb85c7-c4bb-4064-be36-1b9f1e49d789.jpg.html)
The shots out of the black are totally my fault. The one I called was when I heeled the gun horribly. The one thrown left actually "felt" good when I shot them. What is pretty cool to me is comparing the shots of both targets between 7 and 9 o'clock. They seem to be in the same place just the G22 has them pushed further out. Again that's why I feel the G35 is more forgiving.
I also ran "The Test". Sorry guys for the life of me I can't get this thing to rotate.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/deuce9166/93a70645-a764-455e-8ad5-1dd38aad0b91.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/deuce9166/media/93a70645-a764-455e-8ad5-1dd38aad0b91.jpg.html)
What about timed draws from the holster?
Out of the holster I was slightly faster with a smaller gun/shorter barrel, G22/17 or G23 (don't have a 19). I attribute it to nothing more than barrel length and not having to spend so much time pulling up on the gun to clear the holster. I haven't shot for time with a G22 for over a year.
But I still do pretty well with the longer gun. On a good day I am getting 1.37-1.4, A zone hits out of ALS with all my Batman stuff on(7 yards).
The presentation speed was my main concern - but your times are not too shabby ;)
Thanks, but a lot of the credit goes to the holster and a bright and contrasting front sight front sight.
I practiced El Prez for about two months before going on a trip to MISS, using a Dawson front on IPSC practice targets and was getting pretty good sub 9 second times.
When we got there we didn't shoot them on steel but on a target with a black A zone. My eyes were having trouble picking up the front sight as fast even with the FO. and I think I shot a little over 10 seconds.
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