View Full Version : Say goodbye to the SLR-106.
Mauser KAR98K
05-24-13, 10:42
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/05/23/noooo-arsenal-cease-production-entire-slr-106-line-5-56-kalashnikovs/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFirearmBlog+%28The+Firearm+Blog%29
Arsenal is discontinuing their 5.56 AK. :blink:
MountainRaven
05-24-13, 11:31
And there goes all hope for a 5.56 AK Pmag....
Honestly, I'm going to try to look on the bright side of this choice. It will hopefully focus their attention on 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 AK's. That could mean cheaper parts, magazines, and rifles. And perhaps even a renewed interest in domestically produced ammunition in those calibers. Let's hope this ends up being a positive.
Larry Vickers
05-24-13, 15:39
It was always reliability challenged in 5.56mm NATO and with the cost of quality 5.56 ammo being what it is no surprise to me
Sad. Mine runs well and is super accurate. Guess I will be keeping it forever now. :D
C4
Charlie Don't Surf
05-24-13, 17:23
It was always reliability challenged in 5.56mm NATO and with the cost of quality 5.56 ammo being what it is no surprise to me
Did the Galil (R4/Rk 62) suffer the same reliability issues?
last time i put a video on here no one moshed.don't disappoint me.
here is a crappy video i made when i investigated 106 reliability:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O79emhEcrV8
there is lengthy write up under the vid.i imagine ar heads will have some doubts about my handling of the bcm.turn off the sound if you don't like hard music.
plouffedaddy
05-24-13, 21:56
I have a FR and CR that run like champs. Guess I'll be keeping them now for sure :D
eternal24k
05-24-13, 22:19
I had a SAM-5, I could never get why the 5.56 AK was so unreliable compared to 5.45 variants, but it was, and that was the experience with several of my friends 5.56 aks, too bad really.
My SLR-106FR had feeding issues initially. It had the early pinky nail-sized feed ramp ground into the breach face that was widened and deepened by Arsenal USA on later examples after multiple reports of feeding trouble. I corrected the issue myself using hand tools and a Dremel, duplicating Arsenal's fix.
After applying the first remedy, I discovered that I had been experiencing two distinctly different malfunctions, only one of which was solved with the extended feed ramp. I found that the chamber mouth had not been chamferred and was sharp enough to shave brass cases. This sometimes caused enough friction to cause the cartridge to detach from the bolt face and be smashed by the bolt, somewhat resembling a bolt over base failure.
Use of hand tools and dremel polishing wheel around the chamber mouth completely eliminated the issue for the approximately 7,000 rounds of steel and brass-cased ammunition fired since. The only further malfunctions encountered have been with one magazine with spread feedlips that sometimes allows a live round to jump out and eject along with a spent casing during firing.
In my opinion, the rifle was the victim of a lack of sufficient new-design testing and of poor QA at the factory. I would assume because it was intended as a commercial offering and not for military. As an interesting side note, AKM carriers are nearly identical to the factory carrier, needing only a small cut on the side of the bottom to keep from rubbing the magazine's left feedlip.
While I can imagine a theoretical extraction disadvantage in using a more straight-walled case in a system designed for cases with more taper, it seems the primary cause of malfunctions with 5.56 AKs is related to improper assembly/fitting and lacking QC.
I wonder if a 5.56 AK may be more suitable for use with drum and other large capacity magazines. Since the bolt assembly has more length of travel than an AR15, it has more "wiggle room" in the timing to allow for variations in magazine friction and ammunition variations. In an interview with Small Arms Review, L. James Sullivan remarked that timing issues were the reason for the failure of drum magazines with the AR15. In my examination of the issue, the timing appears to be cut too close on both ends, meaning any slight variation on either end results in failure. A 5.56 AK might have enough additional bolt assembly travel distance, and thus timing tolerance, to make high capacity magazines more viable.
A 5.56 AK had been my dream unobtainium rifle ever since seeing my first picture of an AK-74m, and then the AK-101, on the internet in the late '90s. I was thrilled when Arsenal announced them and, in spite of their QC issues, I'm sad to see them go away.
I'd love to see this result in more focus on the 5.45mm guns. Specifically, I'd love to see some ammo that isn't corrosive surplus on the market, and I'd really love to see some US-made modern projos.
When I was in Baghdad with TC we purchased 1500 5.56 AK's direct from the factory at Kazanlak. We issued these to our TCN personnel from Uganda. They ran 100% through all qualifications and fam fires.
We used primarily Bulgarian 5.56 and remaining stocks of Prvi Partizan M193 and SS109 clone.
Larry Vickers
05-25-13, 06:55
Aries144 - your comments are excellent and spot on. Arsenal did nothing more that chamber an AK74 is 5.56mm and send it out the door in my opinion
From what I have seen users that do a 1911 style throat job on the chamber mouth will largely fix the problem
The 2 Warsaw Pact calibers are better designed for feeding in that design as the tapered case greatly helps the cause
ICANHITHIMMAN
05-25-13, 08:01
I'm pretty sure the Romains carried 5.56 AK side folders in Afganistan in 03, I asked them a bunch of questions about them. They never said anything bad, mast be a difference in the ones they ship to us like LAV mentioned.
The Beryls are decent too, at least from what I've read on da interwebs. It's not that it can't be done right, it largely can. But I dunno how many countries would have bothered chambering on in 5.56 at all were it not for NATO.
Moose-Knuckle
05-25-13, 17:51
Yeap not surprising and kind of works out for me. I purchased a SLR-106CRH with the intention of going the SBR route. After reading so many issues with this rifle I erred on the side of caution and felt it prudent not to invest the time and money that goes into an NFA firearm that was not 100%. I have kept it NIB and will sell it for a profit at a latter date.
Then again it is nice to look in the safe and see an SLR-105R, SLR-106CRH, and an SLR-107F. I have a complete set, acquired one of each caliber. Two are no longer made/imported . . . ahh hell I might just keep the damn thing.
Edit to add:
There are still some in stock, so if you ever wanted an SLR-106 now maybe the last chance you get.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR-106-Series-5.56x45-Caliber-Bulgarian-Stamped-Receiver-Rifles/
Larry- I appreciate your comments and comparison.
I think Arsenal would have been better off starting with an AK-74. If you compare an SLR-106 to an AK-74 and an AKM, you'll find the SLR's internals more resemble those of an AKM than an AK-74. The bolt, carrier, and bullet guide all look like AKM components rather than AK-74 components. The function of the bullet guide in particular would have been improved with an AK-74 part instead, since the AKM part used is practically non-functional in the SLR-106.
From what I remember of discussion and commentary on the defunct K-var forum, the SLR-106 was brought out because of demand for a factory-made, stamped receiver, AK-101 pattern 5.56 AK. I remember the popularity in the early 2000s for having Russian and Romanian rifles built into AK-101 clones.
I think it's a fair assumption that Arsenal saw the demand and simply modified their milled receiver SA-M5 5.56 AK design to make it work with a stamped receiver, utilizing as many parts and manufacturing processes already on hand as possible.
In my experience, despite Arsenal's debatable design decisions, my SLR-106FR is still the most accurate AK I've handled. It will give a standard 16" AR15 a run for its money.
I think Arsenal would have been better off starting with an AK-74. If you compare an SLR-106 to an AK-74 and an AKM, you'll find the SLR's internals more resemble those of an AKM than an AK-74. The bolt, carrier, and bullet guide all look like AKM components rather than AK-74 components. The function of the bullet guide in particular would have been improved with an AK-74 part instead, since the AKM part used is practically non-functional in the SLR-106.
From what I remember of discussion and commentary on the defunct K-var forum, the SLR-106 was brought out because of demand for a factory-made, stamped receiver, AK-101 pattern 5.56 AK. I remember the popularity in the early 2000s for having Russian and Romanian rifles built into AK-101 clones.
IIRC the Russian Saiga .223's are AK-74 based, narrow stem bolts. While the Bulgarians maintained the AKM pattern for their SLR-106 series. At least that's from what I've read, I don't own a .223 Saiga.
IIRC the Russian Saiga .223's are AK-74 based, narrow stem bolts. While the Bulgarians maintained the AKM pattern for their SLR-106 series. At least that's from what I've read, I don't own a .223 Saiga.
That matches what I've seen. I understand the Polish Beryl is also AK-74 based.
gillian_seed
05-26-13, 11:44
What do you guys think is going to happen to magazine availability (and parts availability in general) now?
I'm trying to stay hopeful since the Bulgarian military still uses 5.56 AK's.
That's incredible.
Arsenal actually purports to have both a sales director and a PR & marketing director. Perhaps they will even have people who do things like answer emails in the near future?
:rolleyes:
Bulgaria doesn't use 5.56 AK's, but they're quite popular worldwide in milled form. If you're worried about mags, Polish AK mags work just as good in Arsenal guns should Arsenal Inc run dry because of Arsenal Bulgaria can't provide them (IE because nobody ordered them). Polish AK mags are much cheaper too, and look like AK-74 mags. The good news is you'll be able to find Arsenal guns at good prices for a very long time, because Arsenal neglected to gouge their customers for the first few years of production when Arsenal guns were good and desirable.
Current Arsenal offerings are collectors guns at best, overpriced for any sort of utilitarian use. We know they can sell their Russian AK line at $500 and still remain profitable, yet they were beyond $800 even before the panic. I'd still very much like to add an AK-74 and AK-74M to my collection one of these days. But you have to realize however that nobody except the Russian military wants 5.45. $1k for an SLR isn't a great bargain when you can get a Colt for that price. I could go over to wally world today and get a Colt LE6920 for less than they want for their Russian guns. You think Circle 10 mag prices are bad, try AK-74 mag prices.
Look at how many milled AK kits have hit US shores in the last decade or more. Arsenal NV can make milled AK receivers to original specs, just like DSA made commercially available FAL receivers in the same time frame that were around $300. Arsenal never released a single receiver for builds until very recently. Even under threat of ban, they can't sell them for $700. That's the mentality you're dealing with behind the iron curtain. Incidentally that's several hundred more than they charged for the entire SA-M 7 carbine back when they were cranking them out.
It's like their whole business model since about a year after they released SLR series has hinged on how they can provide the absolute least value to any potential customer.
Bulgaria doesn't use 5.56 AK's
The Bulgarian ARM1 is a 5.56 milled AK.
MountainRaven
05-27-13, 17:32
We know they can sell their Russian AK line at $500 and still remain profitable, yet they were beyond $800 even before the panic.
Source?
Cuz I know a guy selling kit guns for ~$600 who is barely making ends meet. (These are pre-scare prices, he couldn't keep up with demand even then. Admittedly, he's not the best business manager I've ever met. And I have no idea what he's selling them for, now.)
I could go over to wally world today and get a Colt LE6920 for less than they want for their Russian guns.
Could you? Is this a hypothetical? Or could you actually do it, today?
I was just at my local Wally world last night. No ammo, other than 270 Win, 30-06, 7mm RM, &c. No LE6920s. No AR-15s or Mini-14s or anything else self-loading, in fact. And the LGS has shelves full of both ammo and AR-15s (including an LE6920).
Could you? Is this a hypothetical? Or could you actually do it, today?
I was just at my local Wally world last night. No ammo, other than 270 Win, 30-06, 7mm RM, &c. No LE6920s. No AR-15s or Mini-14s or anything else self-loading, in fact. And the LGS has shelves full of both ammo and AR-15s (including an LE6920).
The SLR-106 is not available at Walmart, so availability "today" is actually moot. 6920's are again trickling into big box stores and other non-gouging gun stores. Around here, you'd be more likely to find the Colt than an SLR-106, and that was true even before the recent craziness.
In my opinion, the rifle was the victim of a lack of sufficient new-design testing and of poor QA at the factory.
+1
I think Arsenal would have been better off starting with an AK-74. If you compare an SLR-106 to an AK-74 and an AKM, you'll find the SLR's internals more resemble those of an AKM than an AK-74. The bolt, carrier, and bullet guide all look like AKM components rather than AK-74 components.
+1
I had an SLR-106CR and an SLR-106UR. Both were very unreliable with multiple brands of factory ammo. After multiple trips back for repair, Arsenal NV even replaced the SLR-106CR with another (used) one and it was also unreliable. If you want to see video, here it is. Yes, I am an amature with no sort of training. However, keep in mind that my 5.56x45 Saiga, Veprs, and Type 84 all work 100%.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU43g_fhVyc&list=UUDxCaYMqihXg4VCauUdmsug&index=13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgQVibOQPdk&list=UUDxCaYMqihXg4VCauUdmsug&index=12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htuNCPZaXKk&list=UUDxCaYMqihXg4VCauUdmsug&index=10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpkb_8fYYLY&list=UUDxCaYMqihXg4VCauUdmsug&index=9
The monkeys at Arsenal Nevada really made the Century monkeys look good when it came to customer service and quality of repair. I spent may hours trying to figure out what was wrong with these rifles and think that I found the main design problem. If you measure the width of the bottom of the bolt, it's literally just a hair less than the distance between the magazine feed lips. Take a look at the picture below to see what I'm talking about. The 106 bolt is on the right.
http://imageshack.us/a/img402/7794/saigavepriislr106bolts.jpg
If the bolt doesn't go perfectly up the middle, its bottom left or right will hit one of the feed lips. This interrupts the cycle. All of the magazines that I used showed evidence of the bolt hitting them. Here's a picture of the bolt stopped on a magazine.
http://imageshack.us/a/img5/9984/bolthitsleftsideofmag.jpg
So why did Arsenal choose to use a bolt with such a wide bottom? The following is speculation on my part, but I bet that I'm right. Arsenal first used the bolt in their milled 5.56 AK's. Being milled, the point to point receiver dimensions are more spot on and the receiver doesn't flex much. When they used the same carrier and bolt in the stamped receivers, they introduced more potential variability in point to point dimensions. The stamped receivers likely flex more too.
Bottom line, I think the 106 series unreliability is caused by a poor rush design coupled with horrible customer service in the US. Some people are lucky and have rifles that run. I was 0 for 3. I'm not surprised that they discontinued what never worked well to begin with. Heck, I'm surprised they continued producing them this long.
Those pics are a good illustration of the pedigree of the Bulgarian (AKM pattern) vs. Russian (AK-74 pattern) approach to the 5.56 AK.
Bulgarian AR M1 rifles are in 7.62x39.
I'm seeing 6920's coming in regularly to Walmart now. There was one there yesterday.
I've had nothing but good luck with my two SLR-106UR rifles, but arsenals CS is terrible. They should have stuck to importing the milled rifles. Quality control on the 106's was so bad that people wouldn't buy them for $650-700 retail even after they took care of the canted sights and reliability issues.
SAM7's are miraculously three times as much as they were originally. Too much for something that comes from a dirt poor Eastern European country. They can sit on them for that much, and they do.
Because of all the competition a few years back arsenal was selling Russian 7.62x39's for $499.
Guess I'm keeping mine then. Bought it used back in 2010, and once I got the feeding issue taken care of it runs like a top. (A very nose-heavy top). It's quite accurate, and the AK-100 folder makes it fit neatly in a bedside drawer without having an obvious long gun leaning against the wall.
Can't say I blame them though...if you're not interested in learning the platform while retaining ammo commonality with your other 5.56 rifles (as I was when I purchased mine) there are other ways to throw 5.56 that don't involve the tinkering to get them to run right.
Found these in my computer. This is the one we issued out. We purchased 1500 of them for around 550.00 each IIRC. We then purchased extra mags.
They were designated the AR M1 as I recall from the literature and had the typical Bulgarian serial number and factory markings.
16870
16871
Interesting FH there rather than the 74 brake. Were those select fire? (I don't think so, but I don't know which pins to look for in the receiver like I do with the AR/M4 FOW)
Interesting FH there rather than the 74 brake. Were those select fire? (I don't think so, but I don't know which pins to look for in the receiver like I do with the AR/M4 FOW)
Looks like a third pin to me. Semi should only have one pin above the mag release.
And the FH is interesting. Any more info on those IG?
Yes they were full auto. They were being used in Iraq not the U.S. No idea on the flaws hiders. That's how we received them. I'll have to see if there are other pics.
Looks like a third pin to me. Semi should only have one pin above the mag release.
And the FH is interesting. Any more info on those IG?
Moose-Knuckle
05-29-13, 14:47
That is a Bulgarian AR-M1 flash suppressor with a 24 x 1.5mm thread pitch so it will fit any Kalashnikov with a 24mm (think AK-74) threaded front sight block. It was available on several now discontinued Arsenal (Las Vegas) offerings and various Bulgarian rifles. I have several of them on a couple different Arsenal rifles of my own.
OEM Bulgarian:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-133BU.html
Here is a US made copy for about half the price:
http://www.cncwarrior.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=23742
Voodoo_Man
05-29-13, 14:52
So does this mean I should pick one up in pistol form while I still can?
gillian_seed
05-29-13, 15:55
Thanks for the info guys (and Iraqgunz those pictures are interesting, thanks for sharing).
So, while we're still discussing these rifles what parts do you think are smart to have spares of?
Firing pins and firing pin springs, extractors, Recoil springs? What wears out on these 5.56 guns? And where to purchase these parts; I see K-Var has firing pins in stock but no firing pin springs.
Moose-Knuckle
05-29-13, 16:48
Thanks for the info guys (and Iraqgunz those pictures are interesting, thanks for sharing).
So, while we're still discussing these rifles what parts do you think are smart to have spares of?
Firing pins and firing pin springs, extractors, Recoil springs? What wears out on these 5.56 guns? And where to purchase these parts; I see K-Var has firing pins in stock but no firing pin springs.
Everthing you listed as well as a bolt head or two.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-558B.html
Everthing you listed as well as a bolt head or two.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-558B.html
Be very careful swapping bolts with AK's. There's no assurance of proper headspace. You can easily create an unsafe gun if you're not achieving proper headspace.
gillian_seed
05-30-13, 09:48
Everthing you listed as well as a bolt head or two.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-558B.html
Nice, I took a look at that bolt and was wondering if it was complete, called K-Var and turns out that it is. I think I'm going to order one.
Now let's talk recoil springs. I know the SLR106 is more AKM than AK74, but are there differences in the recoil spring rods, or guides between these two designs?
(I know they sell a 5.56 specific recoil spring on the site, this is just for my general curiosity, my brother's SGL21 recoil spring assembly fits in my gun).
So does this mean I should pick one up in pistol form while I still can?
Believe me, a krink in 5.56x45 was my dream AK. However, I'd say no based on my personal 0 for 3 experience with the SLR-106 series rifles and the design flaw that I discussed above. If you do buy one, know that it's a gamble whether it will work reliably or not. If it doesn't, know that Arsenal Nevada's customer service is absolutely horrible, their QC is nonexistent, and they seem to hire from the same pool of monkeys that Century does. If it sounds like I'm mad, I'm not. I've been over it for a while. I'm just trying to honestly tell you what to expect.
I built a Yugo M90 underfolder in 5.56x45mm. I learned a couple of things. AKs for the most part suck in 5.56x45mm unless built and designed from the ground up as 5.56x45mm guns. The Arsenal SL106 series blows donkey chunks. It doesn't work well and getting mags are a pain in the ass.
I'll stick with 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm for AKs.
I don't think the challenges with the builds M90's/M95's are problems with the original design. They primarily have to do with using receivers that are modified US made 7.62x39 receivers and demilled Yugo 7.62x39 magazine catches.
My factory built 5.56x45 Saiga, Veprs and Chinese Type 84's all work fine, so it can be done.
AZ-Renegade
12-16-13, 19:23
Update for SLR-106 owners:
I attended the SAR Show in Phoenix and spoke with a sales reps from Arsenal.
According to that individual, Arsenal will continue to stock parts for the SLR-106 series, along with 5.56 Circle 10 magazines.
A bit late on this thread but must say that I'm glad that I have one of each 106 variant ;)
Update for SLR-106 owners:
I attended the SAR Show in Phoenix and spoke with a sales reps from Arsenal.
According to that individual, Arsenal will continue to stock parts for the SLR-106 series, along with 5.56 Circle 10 magazines.
Who is Arsenal using as a distributor? Kvar?
AZ-Renegade
12-17-13, 01:10
I'm sorry, it was a K-Var sales rep I spoke with, not Arsenal. I forget the two are not synonymous.
I was disappointed to learn of Arsenal's decision to drop the 106 line. I've had one since 2008 (IIRC) and outside of feeding problems with some used Gen 1 magazines its been completely reliable. Its the most accurate AK's I've owned or fired (I've owned quite a few). My wife likes to shoot it better than her 6520.
The finish didn't last long under "farm rifle" conditions, but I think its mostly because I used LSA on it before reading its a "CLP only" finish.
Hopefully KVAR will lower the price on the Circle 10 mags, because $40+ each is a little ridiculous.
Sad to see it be discontinued. A lot of people seem to despise .223/5.56 AKs, but I enjoy shooting them. I love 5.45 and 7.62 AKs too and do prefer them, but there's something nice about knowing you have an AK that will shoot ammunition that can be found at literally any place that sells ammunition. I've never had any reliability problems in either rile pictured (SLR-106FR & WASR-3)
https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/399419_502488783098001_867062627_n.jpg
I've been debating dumping mine for a while now but I keep wondering if I should hold on to it on the off chance they will appreciate in value a bit since being discontinued....but they haven't yet. Even during the height of the panic when WASRs were selling for almost 2k the SLR-106F/FRs never got above about $1100, which is only slightly higher than what they usually list for.
in my experience all of the issues I've seen with .223 AK reliability stem from the weird design decisions or poor build quality of the more-common Bulgarian and Romanian rifles compared to those country's 5.45 and 7.62x39 rifles. For example, the Bulgarians used a mishmash of AK-47 and AK-74 design, the Romanians did something similar, etc.
Bingo! The bottom of the Bulgarian bolt is only too wide relative to the width of the magazine lips it's feeding through. There's literally only about 0.020" worth of clearance if everything lines of perfectly (which it didn't on the two that I owned).
http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/Saiga_VeprII_SLR106_bolts.jpg
Did yours mostly contact the rear of the left feedlip?
Yes. One rifle went back to Arsenal three times and the other twice. I told them what the problem was. Nobody there other than the receptionist would ever talk with me. They gave up and refunded my money, but I still lost the transfer costs.
Sorry you experienced that. I fixed the problem you described in about 30 minutes with a file and some fine sandpaper. No issues or further wear of mag feedlips in over 6,000 rounds after that. I also had to to re-profile the barrel feedramp myself and remove the sharp edge from around the chamber mouth to correct feeding issues.
I thought about trying the same thing, but the bottom left of the bolt was hitting the rear of the left feed lip pretty hard on both rifles. I didn't know for sure that the fix would work and was already very frustrated at Arsenal's complete lack of customer service & QC. Plus, I was really pissed that they pass of their AK's as the gold standard and they were literally the only AK's that I've ever had malfunction. Many people assume that Arsenal is the top tier simply because they cost the most. Yes, they probably do have the best AK configurations available, but their quality is no better than Century and below that of the majority of factory AK's.
Moose-Knuckle
01-01-14, 17:56
Looks like there are still 106 varients in stock . . .
http://www.k-var.com/shop/SLR-106-Series-5.56x45-Caliber-Bulgarian-Stamped-Receiver-Rifles/
Heavy Metal
01-01-14, 18:20
Bingo! The bottom of the Bulgarian bolt is only too wide relative to the width of the magazine lips it's feeding through. There's literally only about 0.020" worth of clearance if everything lines of perfectly (which it didn't on the two that I owned).
http://www.gunco.net/gallery/data/500/Saiga_VeprII_SLR106_bolts.jpg
Why not just have a smith mill a bit off the sides of the pick-up lug? It isn't a point of lock-up.
Why not just have a smith mill a bit off the sides of the pick-up lug? It isn't a point of lock-up.
That seems pretty logical. Of course it begs the question, why did they make it that way to begin with? I told them exactly what the problem was and they chose not to fix it that way for some reason. If I had done it and the rifles were still not reliable, the warranties would have been voided. In the end I thought it was better to just get my money back.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.