View Full Version : Apex J-Frame drop in duty/carry kit
warpedcamshaft
05-24-13, 23:49
Just figured I would give a quick "shout out" to Apex Tactical regarding their J-frame kit.
This kit was a game changer for me. I have immediately noticed an significant increase in my performance with the J-frame in both speed and accuracy at any distance or drill.
I highly recommend this kit, and it changes the pistol completely for my wife. She struggles with the weight of the trigger of a stock J-Frame, but the Apex kit helped massively. This kit will go in every J-Frame I own... thanks Apex Tactical!
https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid49.html
For everyone else who had no idea what the Apex kit you referred to even was. :meeting:
My colleague/friend installed one into his. He can now do controlled Pairs at 8" plates at 25 yards with a 357 magnum 640. He also has greater trigger control for longer distances with his 442.
For me, I like the regular/factory trigger.
Just finished installing the Apex kit as well. Along with removing the lock and adding some new grips.
PA PATRIOT
06-06-13, 16:54
I see the claimed trigger pull with the kit is nine pounds, has anyone actually used a trigger scale to see what their actual trigger pull is after installation?
I see the claimed trigger pull with the kit is nine pounds, has anyone actually used a trigger scale to see what their actual trigger pull is after installation?
Yes, and that's about right. I'll have to dig for my notes, but high eights and low nines was what a few of them weighed out to as I recall.
steyrman13
06-06-13, 20:07
Just finished installing the Apex kit as well. Along with removing the lock and adding some new grips.
How hard is it to remove the lock? Is that a kit APEX offers?
I see the claimed trigger pull with the kit is nine pounds, has anyone actually used a trigger scale to see what their actual trigger pull is after installation?
My colleague measured his at 9.5 lbs.
How hard is it to remove the lock? Is that a kit APEX offers?
Easy enough to remove. I did everything at once since the gun was already apart. The lock and spring come right out, but theres a hole left in the frame. Apex doesnt supply the frame plug, but John over on Smith & Wesson forums makes "The Plug" A nicely machined piece to fill the hole. I just bead blasted it to match the finish. He sells them for $20, and got mine out to me within a week. Just shoot him an email if your interested Wjohnwitt@aol.com
Mine went from 11 lb 12 oz stock to 9 lb 9 oz with the Apex kit.
Removed the Apex firing pin because of some minor issues, but I do like the springs.
What you do for the lock is just remove the "tit" that stops the hammer. The lock then stays in place but won't lock ,,, ever!!!
steyrman13
06-08-13, 21:37
Easy enough to remove. I did everything at once since the gun was already apart. The lock and spring come right out, but theres a hole left in the frame. Apex doesnt supply the frame plug, but John over on Smith & Wesson forums makes "The Plug" A nicely machined piece to fill the hole. I just bead blasted it to match the finish. He sells them for $20, and got mine out to me within a week. Just shoot him an email if your interested Wjohnwitt@aol.com
Thanks I may try this out!
What you do for the lock is just remove the "tit" that stops the hammer. The lock then stays in place but won't lock ,,, ever!!!
Although this sounds easier and more simple and FREE!
Thanks!
SeriousStudent
06-08-13, 23:22
Something you may want to do, if you remove the lock, is plug that little hole. I did, since I pocket carry my 642 all the time. I just did not want to risk stuff getting in there.
There is a guy on the Smith and Wesson forums that sells a little steel plug that drops in to fill that hole. I did that when I removed the lock.
Totally up to you, of course. I know people that did not do it. But if you are going to the trouble to remove the lock, why not go ahead and fill that gap?
I don't remember the name if the guy that sold it to me, but I think it was a whopping 20 bucks shipped.
And the Apex J-frame kit is awesome, I love what it did for my 642.
I put one of the kits in my M&P 340 using the Apex videos. I had never taken a revolver apart before, and I must say it went as smoothly as I could have hoped.
I did not measure the pull before, but one of our range guys measured the pull after at about 9.5. Subjectively, it seems a lot smoother as well. Able to keep most shots inside an 8x12" box at 25 meters, which is good for me with a J-frame. This kit has actually made it fun enough to shoot I see myself putting a lot more time in with the pistol to shrink these groups up to something a bit more respectable.
I have ~2500 rounds on one of mine and will reweigh it soon. Anyone else doing any weight over time assessments?
The Apex kit dramatically changed the trigger pull on my 340. It's the trigger pull the gun should come with from the factory.
I see the claimed trigger pull with the kit is nine pounds, has anyone actually used a trigger scale to see what their actual trigger pull is after installation?
Mine went from 12.2 down to 9.
My wifes went from 12.4 to 9.1.
A VAST improvement in my opinion.
My wife used to hate practicing with J's due to the 12 # trigger pull; but after we transitioned over to the apex kit- she is loving them more and more each time we take them out.
I would make standard the apex kit in any J-frame I purchase/own.
I wish S&W would make them this way from the factory as well- but I also see why they wouldn't, as my father and father in law love the standard 12 # pull and mentioned the new pull on my J-frame was not to either of their liking; stating it threw them off and accuracy was off for them. Maybe just used to the 12 # pull and can't adjust properly after years of shooting- IDK?
I'll have to test them again to see where they are now that I have few thousand rounds or so since we installed the apex kit. Will be interesting to see if the pull lightened up or not; and to what degree if so.
ETA- All my J's are pre-lock pinned and recessed models- so I cannot utilize the apex firing pin.
I finally put mine in last night, pull is smoother and lighter, I don't have a scale but it is about what I would expect.
Put a handful of rounds through it today and all fired fine.
Very happy with this easy upgrade.
donlapalma
06-13-13, 15:43
Another satisfied customer here. For anybody who has a J-Frame with stock trigger, this modification is an absolute no-brainer. Get it done. Easy to DIY as well. My desire to shoot/practice with my revolver went up 3 fold after the installation.
What you do for the lock is just remove the "tit" that stops the hammer. The lock then stays in place but won't lock ,,, ever!!!
This!:secret:
Semper Paratus
06-13-13, 20:01
When I put my apex kit in my 640 I also stoned/polished the rebound slide to knock the high spots off and what a great trigger for a DAO revo. It has always worked over the last several hundred rounds. I use this revo to prove a 2" snubby is good at way more than bad breath distance.
Well worth the money. Definite trigger pull difference.
Put another hundred rounds through my 340 yesterday. While I really like how the trigger pull smoothed out with the kit, I had about four or five light strikes/failures to fire.
In all but one case the primer was hit, just not quite as deeply as normal. All fired with an additional hit. Once there was no strike evident, I may have short stroked the trigger on that one, not sure. I was wondering if anyone else had encountered any light striking with the kit, and any remedy. This never happened before I put the kit in.
Thanks
ETA, I was shooting my usual reloads with Federal primers, so I don't think it was a primer hardness issue.
warpedcamshaft
06-17-13, 18:07
Email Apex customer service immediately. As long as you are sure your primers were well seated.
Their customer service is first class... and they take their shit seriously.
I will send an e-mail off in the morning, I know they have awesome CS.
I am sure the primers were well seated, I was wondering if I may have overlooked something on the installation. I thought I would ask for ideas here before I went further. I figure I am more likely to have boogered something than an Apex kit is to be defective, especially with a revolver.
ETA After talking to some of the wheelgun guys I know at work, it may have been short stroking the trigger, especially with the lighter rebound spring. I will give it another chance and make sure I am letting the trigger all the way out between shots. Even short stroking the firing pin will still protrude, it just will not have the full force of the hammer behind it. It may be why I was seeing light primer strikes.
warpedcamshaft
06-18-13, 00:26
Spent a lot of time around revolvers and revolver shooters in my day... and I have never heard of short stroking a revolver during a double action pull.
Mind explaining what you mean by short stroke? My understanding of the S&W "operating system" would leave me to believe that it is impossible to short stroke the trigger in a double action only example... Particularly in a manner that would leave a dent in a primer.
You can indeed short stroke, or fail to reset, a DA/DAO revolver trigger, but typically the gun locks up at that point until you release the pressure on the trigger and try again.
The way it was explained to me by one of our armorers, it is akin to not letting the trigger quite all the way back out, kind of to a "false reset" so to speak.
He said he had seen on some revolvers (and I did not get which ones specifically) it is possible to let the trigger out to a point that when pulled, the hand advances the cylinder, and the hammer even pushes the pin through the firing pin hole, but the only power is coming from the trigger action. The mainspring is not being fully compressed and released, as the DA sear is not engaged by the sear hooks to move the hammer through its full range.
I don't know that "short stroking" is a common technical term, or more of the way he was trying to explain it to me. He did ask me to bring it in to make sure I had not made any mistakes during reassembly.
The way it was explained to me by one of our armorers, it is akin to not letting the trigger quite all the way back out, kind of to a "false reset" so to speak.
He said he had seen on some revolvers (and I did not get which ones specifically) it is possible to let the trigger out to a point that when pulled, the hand advances the cylinder, and the hammer even pushes the pin through the firing pin hole, but the only power is coming from the trigger action. The mainspring is not being fully compressed and released, as the DA sear is not engaged by the sear hooks to move the hammer through its full range.
I don't know that "short stroking" is a common technical term, or more of the way he was trying to explain it to me. He did ask me to bring it in to make sure I had not made any mistakes during reassembly.
I do it all the time with LCRs. It almost has a double click reset. I'm not sure what is happening on the inside. The issue with the LCR is that it's halfway through the reset and very distinct. I was accidentally only letting the trigger out to the first click and then pulling the trigger with only the cylinder turning.
I can do the same with my 340M&P, but it is really hard. The first click is really subtle and is early in the reset of the trigger.
I checked two of my Apex-equipped J frames, a 442 and 642. I can't duplicate your issue.
While I can feel the mechanics of the action work when I release the trigger slowly and deliberately, there is no mistaking the point of reset.
At least with my older S&W's there is a very fine point at which you can let out the trigger almost all the way and then when bringing it back in, the cylinder will rotate but the hammer will not cock/drop. Again it is a very fine point just shy of full reset. Easy to demonstrate if one is aware of the condition but rarely happens in real use.
I had an issue with light strikes after the installation of an Apex kit on a .22 J-frame (S&W 317?). It was due to the Apex replacement firing pin and spring. I went back to the stock firing pin & spring and the problems went away. The Apex mainspring, rebound spring and some polishing dropped this revolver's DA trigger pull from 12+ pounds to about 8.
I would suggest that if you have another light strike, you probably need to look at changing ammo or getting a slightly heavier mainspring.
Our armorer looked at my 340 and everything looked properly installed to him. He was pretty impressed with how the Apex kit helped the trigger pull.
The range was down so we did not get a chance to fire it. He suggested that if it was operator error, I may want to put the full strength rebound spring back in and see how that feels with pushing the trigger back through reset.
I didn't mean to take this off topic, I am very impressed with the kit and it definitely helped with the trigger on my 340. I am planning on putting one in an old pre lock 640 of mine when I get the time.
WadeP, thanks, I will try switching back to the stock firing pin and firing pin spring to see if that helps.
warpedcamshaft
06-27-13, 23:09
Just as an FYI.
I had a light strike with factory ammunition with my Apex J-frame kit, and the round fired upon second strike. I emailed Apex regarding the issue and received a very prompt and savvy response. They sent me a new kit and payed to ship the original kit back to them.
Great customer service, I have put about 150 rounds through the gun with the new kit and have not had problems thus far.
I will continue to run the gun and report any issues I find.
Once again, first class customer service... we will see how well the kit performs moving forward.
As an update, after Mr. Lee himself contacted me about the problem I was having, Apex is sending out a new mainspring to install.
I knew Apex and their CS are top notch, this just further reinforced it in my opinion. I will certainly be putting another kit in my other J frame as soon as time permits.
Further update; after putting in the new spring, I still had light strikes with the same frequency. Frustrated, I took it back apart to look it over again, and see what was going on. I figured there was very little chance I would get two successive faulty mainsprings. It was then I noticed my DA sear spring was kinked/bent. It was not apparent without removing the sear from the hammer.
I replaced the spring, careful not to make sure it went in without damage. I then reinstalled the second Apex mainspring. I took it out to the range and 200 rounds later, no light strikes, even with the stock firing pin installed. My only guess is that the bent spring was occasionally creating enough drag on the hammer that it was causing the light strikes. I have no idea how it got bent, as I had not removed it from the hammer assembly during the earlier installation. The bottom line is in all likelihood the kit from Apex was good from the start, and it was a separate part unrelated to the kit that caused my problems. I am very happy with the kit and the resulting trigger improvement.
PriseDeFer
07-27-13, 22:38
Thanks for that update and the resolution of the problem. Nice work.
GrandPooba
07-27-13, 23:17
As an update, after Mr. Lee himself contacted me about the problem I was having, Apex is sending out a new mainspring to install.
I knew Apex and their CS are top notch, this just further reinforced it in my opinion. I will certainly be putting another kit in my other J frame as soon as time permits.
Further update; after putting in the new spring, I still had light strikes with the same frequency. Frustrated, I took it back apart to look it over again, and see what was going on. I figured there was very little chance I would get two successive faulty mainsprings. It was then I noticed my DA sear spring was kinked/bent. It was not apparent without removing the sear from the hammer.
I replaced the spring, careful not to make sure it went in without damage. I then reinstalled the second Apex mainspring. I took it out to the range and 200 rounds later, no light strikes, even with the stock firing pin installed. My only guess is that the bent spring was occasionally creating enough drag on the hammer that it was causing the light strikes. I have no idea how it got bent, as I had not removed it from the hammer assembly during the earlier installation. The bottom line is in all likelihood the kit from Apex was good from the start, and it was a separate part unrelated to the kit that caused my problems. I am very happy with the kit and the resulting trigger improvement.
Any indications as to the root cause of the bent sear spring?
defective from factory? induced during range use? damaged during Apex installation?
Any indications as to the root cause of the bent sear spring?
defective from factory? induced during range use? damaged during Apex installation?
To be honest, I have no idea. The DA sear and hammer come out of the frame as one unit, and this stayed intact during my install, and subsequent attempts to solve the problem. That does not mean I did not somehow cause it to get bent, I just do not know how I would have gotten it kinked up. Also, my department armorer did not pick up on it either (though he did not take the DA sear out of the hammer).
I'm not sure it can be induced during range use, but I rule nothing out. It may have been defective from the factory, but the stock mainspring was strong enough to keep it from impacting performance. I do not think I am able to say how it bent with certainty, perhaps someone with more experience with revolvers may know what usually causes these failures.
parishioner
09-03-15, 17:28
Any feedback on how these have been holding up through the years?
Would anyone consider this a "no brainer"/must have kit?
Any feedback on how these have been holding up through the years?
Would anyone consider this a "no brainer"/must have kit?
For me, I consider it a "must have kit". I really didn't like the stock trigger pulls being over 12 pounds which are where my stock triggers were.
I don't have specific history on my Apex kits to know how long or, more appropriately, how many rounds they will go, as I just installed these kits this year.
I do know now, on any of my guns, to keep a rough log of round counts to aid in periodic maintenance or diagnosis of problems. Over the years, I've had a guns with light strikes and triggers not returning due to internal springs getting weak, but back then I didn't keep any logs; now I do.
Mine is still going strong with no failures or issues. I have only been putting about 50 rounds/month through it though to be honest. I still think it is a huge improvement over stock for a J frame.
SeriousStudent
09-04-15, 18:55
Any feedback on how these have been holding up through the years?
Would anyone consider this a "no brainer"/must have kit?
I have had one in a 642 since they were released. It's got probably too many rounds through it for a carry gun.
I have had no issues with it, and prefer it on all my factory J-frames.
UPDATE 12/5/15:
I started getting more & more light strikes in my S&W 442. Today, I'll be changing the main/hammer spring to something heavier, probably back to the stock spring. I'll try leaving the Apex firing pin and rebound spring in the gun. I'm estimating I put ~1500 rounds through the Apex kit when these light strikes began occurring.
For me, I consider it a "must have kit". I really didn't like the stock trigger pulls being over 12 pounds which are where my stock triggers were.
I don't have specific history on my Apex kits to know how long or, more appropriately, how many rounds they will go, as I just installed these kits this year.
I do know now, on any of my guns, to keep a rough log of round counts to aid in periodic maintenance or diagnosis of problems. Over the years, I've had a guns with light strikes and triggers not returning due to internal springs getting weak, but back then I didn't keep any logs; now I do.
This kit looks like a winner.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
UPDATE 12/5/15:
I started getting more & more light strikes in my S&W 442. Today, I'll be changing the main/hammer spring to something heavier, probably back to the stock spring. I'll try leaving the Apex firing pin and rebound spring in the gun. I'm estimating I put ~1500 rounds through the Apex kit when these light strikes began occurring.
After putting in the stock, heavier main-spring, I still had a couple of light strikes. I then reinstalled the stock firing pin and spring, but have yet to re-test fire it. I should be able to do a limited (I only have ~50 rounds left before my next order of ammo arrives) amount of test firing on Wednesday, 12/9/15. Apex' supplied firing pin spring seemed lighter. I wondered if it wasn't returning the firing pin back enough. I couldn't tell if Apex' supplied firing pin was longer or lighter, but I suspect it was lighter just comparing it to stock in my hand. This leaves only Apex' rebound spring in the gun at this point.
Have you guys contacted Apex?
I have sent an email to Apex informing them of my experience. Today, 12/9/15, I shot my 442 J-Frame with 100% ignition with 158gr fmj Armscor ammo of which I had some prior light strikes. I left the rebound spring in which came with the Apex Duty/Carry kit.
12/15/15 UPDATE: Apex is sending me a replacement kit to try.
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