View Full Version : Trigger-less LPK: PSA, WOA or Stag/CMT?
Hi guys, I've got a quick question for the masses. I need a lower parts kit sans trigger assembly (I actually don't need the grip or trigger guard either) and I'm tiring of waiting for Grant's LPKs to come back in stock. No offense to Grant or G&R, I just want to move forward with this build. I've found LPKs in stock from Palmetto State Armory and White Oak Armament, priced within pennies of each other. Which is the higher quality kit? Does anyone have experience with both? Thanks.
Edit: I am also now considering the Stag/CMT LPK which I have found without the trigger for a few dollars more than the PSA or WOA kits. If anyone has experience or opinions on the Stag kits, please chime in. Thanks.
justin_247
05-25-13, 02:46
Unless you can determine where PSA are sourcing their parts, I would opt for the WOA kit. For awhile, PSA was shipping parts sourced from Daniel Defense, but I do not know where they source their parts now.
WOA has an established reputation, while PSA does not.
Better yet, wait a few months.
I have no experience with the PSA kit, but I just used the WOA LPK to assemble my lower. Everything went together well and functions without issue.
Mauser KAR98K
05-25-13, 10:11
FYI: JP Enterprises sells a trigger-less LPK. I have used them on three of my builds.
I have two rifles that have the PSA LPKs sans FCG (like you, I also used my own grip and trigger guard). The only thing that I want to swap on both rifles is the safety selector because I prefer the BAD selectors. The bolt catch, mag release, and detents have all been solid.
skywalkrNCSU
05-25-13, 10:56
I seriously doubt you will be able to notice any difference between those (or most others for that matter). I used a PSA kit minus the trigger assembly and trigger guard and it was good to go.
FYI: JP Enterprises sells a trigger-less LPK. I have used them on three of my builds.
Same here. I've been happy with them so far but I don't use the grip, trigger guard or the safety selector.
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So it looks like that's 2 votes for the PSA, 2 votes for the WOA, and 2 votes for the JP if I'm counting correctly... Alright, well I guess that really narrow things down. :suicide:
To make things even more interesting, I've also located a Stag Arms trigger-less LPK for a few dollars more than the PSA or WOA. The Stag kits are made by CMT and are good to go right? Would I be correct in assuming better quality from a Stag kit vs a PSA or WOA, or am I just paying more for a name and getting the same quality parts? Should I just flip a coin on this or is one of these legitimately better quality than the others?
EDIT: I'm not intentionally ignoring the recommendations for the JP kit, I just have not been able to locate any in stock at the moment so I'm focusing on the others.
Better yet, wait a few months.
What is coming in a few months? Do you know something I do not? Grant was not able to give me an ETA on when the G&R LPKs would be available again, and I'm not aware of any other options for trigger-less LPKs other than those already mentioned...
Mauser KAR98K
05-26-13, 02:54
So it looks like that's 2 votes for the PSA, 2 votes for the WOA, and 2 votes for the JP if I'm counting correctly... Alright, well I guess that really narrow things down. :suicide:
To make things even more interesting, I've also located a Stag Arms trigger-less LPK for a few dollars more than the PSA or WOA. The Stag kits are made by CMT and are good to go right? Would I be correct in assuming better quality from a Stag kit vs a PSA or WOA, or am I just paying more for a name and getting the same quality parts? Should I just flip a coin on this or is one of these legitimately better quality than the others?
EDIT: I'm not intentionally ignoring the recommendations for the JP kit, I just have not been able to locate any in stock at the moment so I'm focusing on the others.
What is coming in a few months? Do you know something I do not? Grant was not able to give me an ETA on when the G&R LPKs would be available again, and I'm not aware of any other options for trigger-less LPKs other than those already mentioned...
The idea to wait a few months is because things will, "might" come back in stock and hopefully at decent prices. Right now most manufactures are building full rifles to meet the demand from the panic. Seeing how things have tapered off on the rifles at the moment, there is a possibility of a buyer's market coming. ETA on that...who really knows.
But it seems that the market responds to two things: a bad mass shooting (which are rare and only happen in gun-free zones), and the drum beat of liberals, communists, socialist to ban evil looking rifles that many here depend on as home and homeland defense weapons.
As for getting an LPK: get what you need and the price you can afford. I'm not familiar with Stag, so I won't comment on it. But, you cannot go wrong with the three choices that has been brought up to you. If JP is out, go to PSA, or WOA (don't know much on WOA). You bigger decisions will occur when deciding lowers, uppers, barrel and barrel length, and what trigger you want.
Your biggest question is: Are the parts to spec?
Your biggest question is: Are the parts to spec?
Spot on. That is my main question. I borrowed a buffer detent from my old DPMS rifle and it was VERY tight in my new lower (not a DPMS). At this point in time I'm assuming that the DPMS parts were out of spec, rather than my new lower (which is from a reputable manufacturer). I want to ensure that whatever LPK I buy has quality, in-spec components (and a reputation for such) so if by chance the parts still do not fit properly its less of a guessing game as to whether the lower or the parts are out of spec, and I'll send in the lower to have it checked. Of course, my guess at the moment is that I will not have that problem with a quality parts kit, because like I said I'm putting more faith in the quality of my new lower than the DPMS parts I tried with it.
As far as the quality of the other components you mentioned, I'm much less concerned about that. Geissele, Noveske, Vltor... ;)
Have you looked at Brownells lately? They have individual parts if you want to piece something together or there are complete kits. As far as the smaller parts, you might be over thinking this. I'm not sure you'd notice any real significant difference between any of them. If the brand does matter to you, here is a Colt kit if you're interested: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-amp-action-parts/parts-kits/ar-15-rifle-accessories-kit-prod26508.aspx?psize=96
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mkmckinley
05-26-13, 08:28
I bought a PSA kit. The takedown pins had a weird finish and one of them was defective. I had to use a pin out of another kit to replace it. I'd stay away from them.
Thanks for the reply mkmckinley. PSA's quality consistency (or lack there of) seems like it is going to keep me away from them. From what I've found in my searches, it seems like the vast majority of people are satisfied with them, but there is a notable percentage of customers who received sub-par parts, or kits missing parts, and it doesn't sound like PSA was very good about fixing the problems. I'm not willing to roll the dice with a company lacking good customer service.
Does anyone have any semi-recent experience with the Stag/CMT kits? I've read Noveske used to use them in their lowers, but it doesn't sound like they do anymore. The Stag kit is $10 more than the WOA kit, for comparison.
I guess I'm less concerned about the finish than I am about ensuring that quality raw materials were used and the parts were machined to the correct specs. I will probably end up sending the major components off for nitriding anyway.
ForTehNguyen
05-26-13, 20:12
i bought a triggerless PSA LPK + ACT Trigger. Works fine, never had a problem
I bought a PSA kit. The takedown pins had a weird finish and one of them was defective. I had to use a pin out of another kit to replace it. I'd stay away from them.
I've used seven of the PSA kits and never had a bad part. so what does that say about your experience? pretty much nothing as neither of our experiences is significant...
I've used DD, PSA and CMT/Stag and can't really tell much difference (excluding fire controlgroups). it may be that one pin or spring is better than another but my feeling is that as long as things are in spec, these are small parts, subject to wear with admin maintenance interval. get what's available, get spares, keep up with maintenance...
NeoNeanderthal
05-27-13, 11:03
Dude, get the colt LPK! You know you want to.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-amp-action-parts/parts-kits/ar-15-rifle-accessories-kit-prod26508.aspx?psize=96
Hell, one of the members here got a bad take down pin in a Daniel Defense kit and it wasn't a finish issue. The stupid thing was made too short.
I've used two DD kits and three PSA kits within the last year. Honestly, you really couldn't tell a difference in them. The hammers actually had the same casting stamps.
Hemoglobin
05-27-13, 15:04
I have a couple of the Brownells Colt kits. Last I looked they weren't available. I would put together parts from Brownells or SAW.
I ordered a PSA pistol tube for a pending SBR build waited a few weeks then ordered a Phase 5 ... received the phase 5 first. Did it for me.
SpeedRacer
05-27-13, 16:09
I think just about any LPK out there "works". I only used a PSA kit once, and it was missing two parts (the screw for the MOE trigger guard and a detent). Apparently it happens pretty regularly based on what I've seen on forums. There customer service answered all of my emails promptly, however they never actually sent the replacement parts. I finally gave up and sourced my own.
So that is something to consider. Assuming you receive all of the parts, the kit will work fine. I did find the PSA selector to be a good bit squishier/sloppier than every other parts kit I've used though. All said and done I have and will continue to use other LPKs since. Although the difference may be minor, I'll pay the extra $5-10 for something that works well vs. something that just works.
I do have a build planned using a Geissele trigger, so I am interested in hearing reports on the WOA kit as I was just looking at those.
saddlerocker
05-27-13, 19:52
I have used 2 PSA kits and they both work/fit fine.
The trigger on the first one, bought spring 2012, is cleaner than my ALG ACT.
The second kit I bought was trigger-less.
The price and ability to get the MOE Grip and trigger guard make it too hard to pass up the PSA kits.
I think just about any LPK out there "works". I only used a PSA kit once, and it was missing two parts (the screw for the MOE trigger guard and a detent). Apparently it happens pretty regularly based on what I've seen on forums. There customer service answered all of my emails promptly, however they never actually sent the replacement parts. I finally gave up and sourced my own.
So that is something to consider. Assuming you receive all of the parts, the kit will work fine. I did find the PSA selector to be a good bit squishier/sloppier than every other parts kit I've used though. All said and done I have and will continue to usea other LPKs since. Although the difference may be minor, I'll pay the extra $5-10 for something that works well vs. something that just works.
I do have a build planned using a Geissele trigger, so I am interested in hearing reports on the WOA kit as I was just looking at those.
Same experience with 2 PSA kits and the selector feeling soft. BCM, LMT and S&W lowers all feel crisper when going between safe and semi. Otherwise, hammer with same casting marks and no other differences that I could tell.
Just ordered and installed a PSA MOE LPK. The mag release button was too large for my Noveske lower and had to be sanded down and repainted. Also did not come with a lock washer for the grip. Took about 10 days to process the order before it shipped as well. I will steer clear for my next build.
IIRC, the MOE grip does not use a lock washer...
One note about the WOA LPK, the fastener for the grip is a SHCS not a straight slot screw. I know that isn't "mil-spec", but I like the SCHS more.
PalmettoStateArmory
05-29-13, 09:07
IIRC, the MOE grip does not use a lock washer...
It doesn't.
If anyone has an issue with their order or part from one of our LPKs you can just PM us on here or contact customer service through the e-mail/phone.
One note about the WOA LPK, the fastener for the grip is a SHCS not a straight slot screw. I know that isn't "mil-spec", but I like the SCHS more.
SHCS?
SHCS?
Sorry. Machinist lingo. Socket Head Cap Screw. An Allen bolt..;)
SHCS?
Yeah, he lost me there too. I ended up Googling it.
Thanks for the replies guys. I was going to go with the Stag/CMT kit, but apparently I took too long to make up my mind - out of stock now. So it's back down to PSA or WOA... flip a coin? Has anyone actually used a LPK from WOA? I generally don't like to be the guinea pig...
EDIT: Going back over the replies I see that Tzed250 is running a WOA kit... is anyone else? (I'm leaning toward the WOA, if that wasn't already obvious)
I've used 2-3 CMMG, 4-5 PSA, a DD and some other I can't recall. Spikes maybe. No difference in any that I could see other than slot vs socket grip screws.
My only gripe is that an extra detent or two is not included. Searching for micro-missles in the carpet with my aged eyes is often a futile effort.
Dude, get the colt LPK! You know you want to.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-amp-action-parts/parts-kits/ar-15-rifle-accessories-kit-prod26508.aspx?psize=96
Outside of Grant's G&R kit, this is what I'd do.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-30-13, 00:35
Yeah, he lost me there too. I ended up Googling it.
Thanks for the replies guys. I was going to go with the Stag/CMT kit, but apparently I took too long to make up my mind - out of stock now. So it's back down to PSA or WOA... flip a coin? Has anyone actually used a LPK from WOA? I generally don't like to be the guinea pig...
EDIT: Going back over the replies I see that Tzed250 is running a WOA kit... is anyone else? (I'm leaning toward the WOA, if that wasn't already obvious)
I've used WOA on two lowers. Great pieces. Nice finish and not a lot of tool marks on them. No problems with a thousands of rounds thru both guns. I used G triggers with them.
Outside of Grant's G&R kit, this is what I'd do.
The Colt kit does not appear to have include the safety selector, and the pins are the wrong size. On top of that it's twice as much as the PSA or WOA kit, both of which include selectors and have the pin size I need. I'm sure its a fine kit, just not what I'm looking for.
I've used WOA on two lowers. Great pieces. Nice finish and not a lot of tool marks on them. No problems with a thousands of rounds thru both guns. I used G triggers with them.
How would you say they compare to other kits you've used? Thanks.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-30-13, 17:35
How would you say they compare to other kits you've used? Thanks.
Way better than the Oly Kit from 15 years ago (everyone has their fat chick) ;)
The kit looked better, more even, flat and seemingly dense phosphating than a recent DPMS. A DD kit I have is almost as nice looking (I haven't used it yet.)
The parts all fit well into two different lowers and haven't broken and went together well- and I'm all kinds of thumbs. I don't know where they source their parts, but they had less machining marks than the DPMS kit. Really more subjective than quantitative. I knew WOA from my High-Power shooting and their reputation for good barrels. That and the ability to use
It would be interesting to have everyone send a spare LPK to a central person to mic them and compare the range of tolerance and fit.
I see a 'Chart".......
Get this one & sell the ACT. At least it won't cost you much if something is wrong with it.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/palmetto-state-armory-classic-act-lpk.html
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Way better than the Oly Kit from 15 years ago (everyone has their fat chick) ;)
The kit looked better, more even, flat and seemingly dense phosphating than a recent DPMS. A DD kit I have is almost as nice looking (I haven't used it yet.)
So you're saying the finish on the WOA was better than the DD kit?
It would be interesting to have everyone send a spare LPK to a central person to mic them and compare the range of tolerance and fit.
I see a 'Chart".......
Sounds like an excellent idea. Do it. ;)
caelumatra
06-02-13, 12:37
I have 2 psa lpks minus FCG installed and noticed the same floatiness in the selector. I asked IG about it when i was in his class a few weeks ago. I flipped his 60% selector a few times and they were really similar. From that i figured it was fine. Much lighter and easier to throw than my DD lpk and my ? Lpk but still plenty to provide positive feedback when using the selector.
Both of my PSA lpks use ALG QMS Fcgs
Early last year I helped build 2 lowers for a friend with PSA lower kits and they were way way nicer than the DMPS kits I have done in the past.
Update: I ended up going with the trigger-less White Oak Armament lower parts kit, got it in the mail today. Shipping was fast and reasonable. Their site does not calculate shipping so you don't know your exact total when you check out, but they claim you will be charged the actual shipping and handling and give estimates based on package size. The smallest estimate was $2-5, and I was charged $3.50 for shipping and handling according to my invoice, even though the USPS box it came in was marked as costing $2.55 in postage... :confused:
All of the parts fit nicely into my Seekins SP15 lower and the finish is good. No machining marks that I noticed and most parts had a even, deep black finish. The coating on the magazine release button is blemished on one side, almost like it was touching another one when it was coated. I'm going to contact them about it on Monday and see if they are willing to replace it, otherwise I'll just coat it in some aluminum black or a sharpie. I also ordered a few spare parts with it - basically doubles of all the springs, pins and detents in the lower parts kit plus a back up trigger spring set. The hammer spring I ordered was not included and my invoice had a note stating that it was on backorder and will be shipped when it becomes available. Their website showed all parts in stock when I placed my order. I was not charged for the missing hammer spring but I will have to inquire as to if I will be charged for it when it ships or if I will be charged additional shipping.
EDIT: I contacted WOA on Tuesday regarding the blemished magazine release button. They sent me another one no questions asked and I got it in the mail on Thursday. It sounded like she literally walked back into inventory and grabbed another mag release button while I was on the phone. Excellent customer service for sure. The new button is perfect and I was not charged for the button or shipping. I inquired briefly about the hammer spring and she told me they will ship it as soon as it becomes available, and I will not be charged until it ships. I will have to pay an additional shipping charge but it shouldn't be more than a dollar or so. And in their defense, stupid me should have read the bright red print on their website which states, "Please note that we are experiencing a higher than usual rate of out-of-stock items due to extremely high order volume. The ability to place an item in your cart is not an indication the item is available. Please see our home page for a list of known out-of-stock items." :suicide:
I guess I was lucky the hammer spring was the only piece that was backordered.
I`ve used dpms,daniel defense,jp enterprise,and psa!never a problem with any of them!i can`t notice any difference between their functions,since I bought most without tcg`s!
Mall_Ninja
07-31-13, 03:23
I figured it best to resurrect this than start a new thread. I was looking for an LPK minus FCG as I prefer Geissele.
I found Colt LPK's listed on Brownells:
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-amp-action-parts/parts-kits/colt-lower-receiver-parts-kit-prod27064.aspx
I thought wholly crap $159!! And I wont need the grip or FCG, huge waste. Then I realized what I was looking at, this WAS a kit less FCG and grip!!!
Is this price a typo? Even if this was full LPK this is almost double everyone else? I know Colt is proud, but... :rolleyes:
I cant find anyone else with Colt parts in stock, anyone else have any luck?
I believe Brownells sells individual lower parts made by colt, but IMO they are ridiculously over priced. I understand and advocate the "buy once, cry once" policy but you have to draw the line somewhere. Mine is at LPKs costing 3-4 times what they should.
That said, my experience with WOA has been top notch, and they sell individual parts as well, and at much more reasonable prices. However, I think youll find the price is abouy the same between buying a LPK w/o trigger or piecing one together w/o trigger & grip from individual components. Might as well take the "free" grip and toss it in a drawer.
I put one of the white oak LPKs in a legion lower about a week ago, no problems at all. Friend did the same, had no problems also.
sinlessorrow
07-31-13, 08:10
Thanks for this.
Looks like an ALG/WOA set are in my future.
This place is selling CMT/Stag trigger-less LPKs, to give you another option.
http://www.tieronearms.com/Stag-LPK-p/lpk-minus.htm
Mall_Ninja
07-31-13, 11:32
Yeah I was considering the WOA if I cant get Colt parts for a reasonable price.
Tier One is where I have been getting my Giessele triggers. They ship fast, and have great customer service. They have been growing considerably! Good sign...
Yeah I was considering the WOA if I cant get Colt parts for a reasonable price.
Tier One is where I have been getting my Giessele triggers. They ship fast, and have great customer service. They have been growing considerably! Good sign...
You know that we offer member discounts on Geissele products right? ;)
C4
sinlessorrow
07-31-13, 11:35
You know that we offer member discounts on Geissele products right? ;)
C4
Now you tell me!
Now you tell me!
We offer member discounts on all sorts of products. One just needs the discount code.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=133771
C4
Mall_Ninja
07-31-13, 11:50
We offer member discounts on all sorts of products. One just needs the discount code.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=133771
C4
Sweet, since Geissele is MAP you usually have to talk to people in person to see who offers the best deals. :secret:
Any idea when your LPK's will be back in stock? Id skip Brownells inflated Colt prices for one of your kits with a Geissele SDE...
Sweet, since Geissele is MAP you usually have to talk to people in person to see who offers the best deals. :secret:
Any idea when your LPK's will be back in stock? Id skip Brownells inflated Colt prices for one of your kits with a Geissele SDE...
Our LPK's are in stock, but we are currently only using them for builds.
C4
sinlessorrow
07-31-13, 12:50
Our LPK's are in stock, but we are currently only using them for builds.
C4
Hopefully theyll be available soon. I would prefer to get the package yall sell.
Mall_Ninja
07-31-13, 13:18
Hopefully theyll be available soon. I would prefer to get the package yall sell.
That makes 2 of us! :D
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