View Full Version : weapon light causing FTF on my Glock 22?
Took a 2 day handgun class that required 800 rnds. Brought my issued Gen3 Glock mdl 22 with a mounted Streamlight TLR-1 and 3 mags. Within the first 200 rounds I had 3 failure to feeds. Cleaned the gun, marked my mags, and had 5 more failure to feeds in the next 150 rounds. Happened with all 3 mags.
Had a Glock Armorer inspect the weapon. Did not locate any problems, but he removed my TLR-1 and suggested I run the gun without it. He said it was on "a little tight" and it might be "binding" the gun.
Shot 450 rounds without a single hiccup. Armorer suggested I "upgrade" to a Gen4 recoil spring and possibly replace the light to something with a different mounting mechanism.
Thoughts?
daisycutter
05-25-13, 19:19
I've heard of this, but not experienced it.
G19 gen 4 with tlr1 and thousands of rounds and no problems. Including more than a few 1k round class days.
NeoNeanderthal
05-25-13, 20:19
Shot 450 rounds without a single hiccup. Armorer suggested I "upgrade" to a Gen4 recoil spring and possibly replace the light to something with a different mounting mechanism.
Thoughts?
Erm sorry… gen 4 recoil springs dont fit in gen 3 guns.
What happens is the light stiffens the slide changing how it recoils. This makes it hard for the magazine spring to feed rounds up into the gun fast enough (before the gun completes it's cycle). I have HEARD stronger magazine springs can be a legit band-aid for this issue.
Personally I would not run a WML, or i would purchase a 9mm conversion barrel and shoot 9mm out of it..or sell it and get a G17 or a gen4 g22. Sucks, but it is a well known issue that glock even admits to.
NeoNeanderthal
05-25-13, 20:22
I've heard of this, but not experienced it.
G19 gen 4 with tlr1 and thousands of rounds and no problems. Including more than a few 1k round class days.
The issue is limited to gen 3 .40 cal glocks only.
beschatten
05-25-13, 20:23
Is this an issue only with certain caliber Glocks? I was about to purchase a x300 or x400 for my Gen4 17, maybe I should reconsider if it affects reliability?
All 150 of our guns (Glock 22'a) do it. Bought them in 2005
Easy fix are 14 coil ISMI magazine springs (it will reduce capacity to 14). Make sure to swap the springs every 2-3 years with your recoil spring assembly.
Long story short. The minute weight added tweaks the frame just enough that during recoil the slide slows down. Extra power mag springs force the rounds up faster & harder to compensate.
Also the newer mags that come with the gen 4 guns (not sure of the follower number) seem to work well. We only have a couple dozen floating around.
beschatten
05-25-13, 20:48
The issue is limited to gen 3 .40 cal glocks only.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
This is one of the issues GEN4 was designed to address.
I thought is was comman knowledge that Gen 3 22 were jammomatics with lights attached.
Very well documented issue with 3rd generation .40 cal Glocks. Primarily G22 and 23s IIRC. Top round of the magazine taking enough of a nosedive to inhibit feeding.
Fixes that have worked very well for me have been:
1. Updated magazine followers (gen 8)
2. Updated magazine springs (11 coil)
3. Newer magazines that contain 1 and 2
4. Regular replacement of recoil spring assembly (2000-3000 rounds)
Confed-rifleman
05-25-13, 23:32
I have a early gen 3 G22 (manufactured early 2000) with about 3000 rds through it and about 700 with the TLR-1 mounted. Only had 1 failure and that was without the light (Remington UMC 165gr fmj). Mags manufactured between 2000-2009. Mix of ammo manufacturers/loads. Maybe I have the unicorn in the bunch.
I thought is was comman knowledge that Gen 3 22 were jammomatics with lights attached.
I consider myself above average in firearms knowledge, and I did not know this. So, guess not.
Very well documented issue with 3rd generation .40 cal Glocks. Primarily G22 and 23s IIRC. Top round of the magazine taking enough of a nosedive to inhibit feeding.
Fixes that have worked very well for me have been:
1. Updated magazine followers (gen 8)
2. Updated magazine springs (1 coil)
3. Newer magazines that contain 1 and 2
4. Regular replacement of recoil spring assembly (2000-3000 rounds)
Very helpful. Thank you.
I updated my first post to say 11 COIL. Lest anyone think I was suggesting you use 1 big leaf spring in your magazine.
A while back, one of the reported fixes was to use heavier weight .40 cal ammunition. IIRC, there was mention of the 180gr offerings being more reliable, versus 165 and lower. I use 180s anyways (issued). Can anyone confirm this as truth or not?
There was also mention that the TLR's mounting method (which squeezes in on the rails) could affect function more than the Surefire X-series mounting method. Again, can anyone confirm this?
The TLR series of lights will cause this when the screw is over tightened. You need to back the mounting screw off some so the frame can flex properly. Or switch to a SureFire or Insight WML...
Is this an issue only with certain caliber Glocks? I was about to purchase a x300 or x400 for my Gen4 17, maybe I should reconsider if it affects reliability?
You're good to go. Purchase away.
Deputy Dan
05-26-13, 10:47
The Surefire X300 will cause jams as well... my issued Gen III G23 w/ X300 jammed numerous times during the morning of TD1 of an LAV pistol/carbine class several years ago, had to go to a spare G23 to get through the class. This particular Glock had never had this issue occur before this class. Taking the light off made the issue stop... put the X300 back on and the problem would reoccur.
LAV said that he has seen many FTF jams with G22/23 and mounted lights...apparently it stiffens the dust cover and preventing frame flex, add to the mix weak springs, allowing the slide to over speed and outrun the mag spring's ability to feed rounds. My G23 would run ok with the light removed.
Replaced the RSA with a new OEM part and replaced every magazine I own with Wolff extra power springs and new followers and have not had a repeat occurrence.
ETA You don't have to take my word for it... you can go to the "Ask the SME" forum a little further down the main page and ask LAV yourself.
My department has Gen 3 G22s with TLR1 lights. After about 5 years of use, we started having these same issues. I replaced all of the magazine springs and followers in all of our magazines and have not had a single malfunction since. Magazine follower #9 is item number SP01028-9 on the Glock parts list. The spring is 2551 on the Glock parts list. Call Glock direct at (770) 432-1202.
11 coil OEM mag springs.
Mag bodies and followers no earlier than your gun.
Replace RSA every 2500rds.
Make sure your WML isn't too tight on the receiver.
Shoot standard pressure, 180gr loads at ~1000fps.
Littlelebowski
05-26-13, 14:14
This is one of the issues GEN4 was designed to address.
I believe it did fix the issue.
I believe it did fix the issue.
Suspect so. Considering how extensive the BATFE testing was, I'd like to think they evaluated reliability with weapon light attached.
My department has Gen 3 G22s with TLR1 lights. After about 5 years of use, we started having these same issues. I replaced all of the magazine springs and followers in all of our magazines and have not had a single malfunction since. Magazine follower #9 is item number SP01028-9 on the Glock parts list. The spring is 2551 on the Glock parts list. Call Glock direct at (770) 432-1202.
11 coil OEM mag springs.
Mag bodies and followers no earlier than your gun.
Replace RSA every 2500rds.
Make sure your WML isn't too tight on the receiver.
Shoot standard pressure, 180gr loads at ~1000fps.
Outstanding, thank you for your help. I just emailed my boss with that info - hopefully they get everyone these replacements parts before something bad happens
This issue with the gen 3 G22s has been very well known for a very long time.
Things got worse the winter of 2005/2006 when Glock changed the frame to the newer style for the gen 3s. This stiffened up the dust cover.
The issue is not that the slide slows down, it is that it speeds up.
The fails-to-feed problems caused by adding a light (or in some G22 without a light, we had plenty of those) is due to excessive slide velocity. Simply put, the magazine can't keep up with the slide during the firing cycle to get the rounds fed up into position in time to feed correctly, thus the nose of the round gets stubbed into the front of the magazine body.
In my extensive experimentation with various G22s and every light available on the market in 2006 I found it makes no difference what light you use, even the Glock light as suggested by Glock.
Heavier recoil springs can help, as experiments with the Wolff springs have shown, so can losing a round or two out of the mag and going with 12-14 coil springs as has been noted above.
I found that if you use lower recoil ammo running below 1000fps that things tended to work OK, IF you swapped your RSA out every 2000 rounds or so.
The chokes with a light mounted issue has only been with the gen 3 G22s and G23s that I have seen, although I know of a few reports of this issue with gen 4 G22s.
There has never been a similar issue with the Glock 9mms of any type.
I had the same issues with my Gen 3 G22 with a light attached. In about 4,000 rounds I had approximately 32 malfunctions with a light mounted to the gun, and all of them were failure to feeds. I changed out the RSA, magazine springs to 11 coil springs, followers to #8's, and I still had infrequent malfunctions and this was unacceptable for a duty weapon. When I switched to a Gen 4 G22 I have not had any further malfunctions with a light mounted in about 1,000 rounds. I had pretty much lost confidence in Glock's in .40, but the Gen 4 seems to have fixed the issues with a light mounted and also has reduced the felt recoil nicely.
My Gen 3 G17 has had no issues at all in approximately 10,000 rounds with a light attached.
kantstudien
05-27-13, 02:44
Options are:
1) Find a different "armorer."
2) Use an extra power recoil spring/ss guide rod from Wolff
3) Use only newest gen mags with newest followers and fresh springs
4) Get a Gen 3 G17 instead
5) Get a Gen 4 G22 instead
Apparently these malfunctions didn't occur when G22s were used with factory Glock weaponlights. Not sure if they are still being made, but that is another option to consider.
All- If you're going to post information about your G22/WML malfunctions, please be sure to include the ammunition used with the other gun attributes. Include the part/catalog/sku number if you can as well. There are trends.
This goes for magazines and followers as well.
Also, a word on followers- Not all followers are compatible in all magazine bodies. If you have swapped new followers into old bodies, you may have exacerbated your issues.
All- If you're going to post information about your G22/WML malfunctions, please be sure to include the ammunition used with the other gun attributes. Include the part/catalog/sku number if you can as well. There are trends.
This goes for magazines and followers as well.
American Eagle AE40R3 - 40 S&W 165 grain FMJ (1130fps)
American Eagle AE40R3 - 40 S&W 165 grain FMJ (1130fps)
The fast 165s are common in problem reports.
When I combined 165 HSTs with other variables, I could replicate stoppages virtually on demand.
The fast 165s are common in problem reports.
When I combined 165 HSTs with other variables, I could replicate stoppages virtually on demand.
This is new to me as I never use anything other than 180 grain. This may be the one variable that answers why I don't have the problems most here post about....
Thanks Skintop!
All of my malfunctions occurred using our practice ammo (Speer Lawman 180 grain) and our Duty Ammo (Federal HST 180 g). It also occurred using the newest generation magazines/followers/springs and older (#5 followers) upgraded mags (I heard later about the issue running the newer followers in older mags).
The malfunctions occurred using Surefire x300, and Streamlight TLR-1.
When I replaced everything (RSA, springs, followers) I ran 300 flawless rounds through the gun with different weapon lights and then when I went to a training class the gun choked 5 times during a 30 round qualification course (180 grain Federal American Eagle). I have never used anything other than 180 grain ammunition in my Gen 3 or Gen 4 G22.
My Gen 3 was a DLR prefix gun.
EzGoingKev
05-27-13, 19:40
I have a Gen3 G23 with an x300 installed.
I run Wolff +10% springs with a mix of #8 and #9 followers and my pistol is good to go shooting 180 and 165 grain ammo.
Interesting thing is that I can run mag after mag after mag through it without an issue but my friend cannot get through a single mag without multiple FTF's.
Psalms144.1
05-28-13, 06:41
The issue is limited to gen 3 .40 cal glocks only.Actually, no. I know a couple of people who have reliability issues with the combination of the TLR lights and Gen4 G23s. The Gen4s were designed with the hope of finally resolving the .4 S&W WML issues, but they're not foolproof yet.
Personally, I think the TLR's mounting mechanics are just not suitable to the Glock platform's need for "frame flex" to function properly.
Also, to the OP, your armourer needs to be fired, or at least retrained. I shudder to think that a Glock armourer actually suggested you put a Gen4 RSA in a 3rd Gen gun - they're not in any way compatible!
Regards,
Kevin
Erm sorry… gen 4 recoil springs dont fit in gen 3 guns.
What happens is the light stiffens the slide changing how it recoils. This makes it hard for the magazine spring to feed rounds up into the gun fast enough (before the gun completes it's cycle). I have HEARD stronger magazine springs can be a legit band-aid for this issue.
Personally I would not run a WML, or i would purchase a 9mm conversion barrel and shoot 9mm out of it..or sell it and get a G17 or a gen4 g22. Sucks, but it is a well known issue that glock even admits to.
stiffens the frame not the slide. with less frame flex the slide rails inserts on the frame don't move and the slide cycle rate goes up (quickens/faster).
The issue is limited to gen 3 .40 cal glocks only.
Nope. Seen it on several Gen4 .40's, including mine.
For those having problems with Gen 4s, are they G23s? If they are, contact Glock and make sure they have all the latest updated parts. My department adopted the Gen 4s as soon as they came out and there were initial problems with the G23s, but once the latest parts were installed they've been trouble free. I mentioned it in another thread, I believe the updated parts were the recoil spring, ejector and extractor.
11 coil springs is the fix for the weapon light issue. Gen4 17/22 mags come with 11 coil springs.
I'm not sure that it is just a magazine spring issue. My department's head firearms instructor was in very frequent contact with Glock regarding our Gen 3s and their issues with the lights. There were several "solutions" tried, including different magazine spings and even new magazines. The problem was never resolved until they were replaced by Gen 4s.
11 coil springs is the fix for the weapon light issue. Gen4 17/22 mags come with 11 coil springs.
ISMI 14 coil did the trick for us in 2006 and 11 coil was the standard then. The newer mags that come with the gen 4 guns do work better in our guns as well.
11 coil springs is the fix for the weapon light issue. Gen4 17/22 mags come with 11 coil springs.
No, it is not, not since the winter of 2005 when Glock changed the gen 3 frames to the newer style dust cover and serial# plate.
All 350 of our guns came with 11 coil mag springs. Note my post above.
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