Training or Techniques for protecting Family/Friends

[Hootiewho]

We train for one on one engagements, but how often do we take into account having a spouse, child, or friend with us at the time of use of deadly force? Say a cop out on the town with his girl and he runs into two dirtbags he put away, and they cause him trouble. What is the best course of action. Is there any information/techniques for dealing with one or multiple bad guys and having to cover a loved one? Are there any techniques that we could prep our loved ones on, such as run laterially for cover, call for help. Anyone have any ideas as far as literature to read on this subject or classes that may not be so heavy into V.I.P. protection from a group, but more along the lines of protection of a V.I.P. by an individual. Do any of you incorporate this into your training, and what do you do?

[they]

Your woman should be putting down intersecting fields of fire.

[John_Wayne777]

Say a cop out on the town with his girl and he runs into two dirtbags he put away, and they cause him trouble. What is the best course of action.


The best course of action is that if he sees two people he knows have it out for him, to un-a$$ the area post haste. That's where that whole "situational awareness" thing comes in. You can often spot trouble before it manifests as trouble and avoid it altogether if you know what you are doing.



Is there any information/techniques for dealing with one or multiple bad guys and having to cover a loved one?


The basic choices are to leave them to whatever fate has in store for them, or to put yourself between them and the threat. If you're whipping out a handgun to deal with two ruffians who are intent on hurting your chick, their attention is going to shift pretty rapidly to the guy shooting at them.



Are there any techniques that we could prep our loved ones on, such as run laterially for cover, call for help.


Plenty...but that's not the question.

The real question is whether or not your loved ones will pay any attention to code-words or have the proper mindset necessary to understand exactly what is at stake and to act in their own interest.

If your loved ones do, goodie-goodie! You are way ahead of the game. Develop code words that signal:

1. Possible threat, gather up and watch me
2. Threat confirmed, get the hell out of dodge

You won't need a level three code word because typically the gunshots will be sufficient indication that the manure has hit the fan.

Now if your loved ones are like mine, they are grass eaters and there's not a f**king thing you can do to make them anything else, no matter how hard you try. Thus should I find myself in a nasty situation I am on my own, and my only real option is to put myself between the threat and my loved ones because they'll be too busy going "what?" when the actual threat is developing to take proper action.



Do any of you incorporate this into your training, and what do you do?

The most important thing you can do is learn to develop a highly tuned situational awareness at all times, in all places. That is realistically the most effective defensive weapon you can possibly possess. If you can see trouble coming, even just a second or two before it gets to the point where it is deadly, you have a lot more options.

Developing your situational awareness and the SA of your loved ones, as well as the proper mindset about personal security is the hard part. (Which is REMARKABLY similar to EP when you have a principal that hires security and proceeds to ignore every single thing the security pros tell them to do...)

[MaceWindu]

Family Protection Fundamentals

LMS Defense


The majority of defensive training revolves around the assumption that the individual is alone or in a team of similarly trained individuals. Most of the time, the average person does not operate like this; instead spending most of their time with their family. If presented with a threat, the individual’s primary concern must be the protection of their family. The LMS Defense Family Protection Fundamentals course will teach the individual, couple or family how to implement an aggressive security posture that is both nonintrusive to the family and transparent to the general public; while remaining potently effective against organized attacks and crimes of opportunity. This course will teach you how to organize into a ‘family protection unit’, with each member having a specific role in the security plan; family unit movement; situational awareness; recognizing potential threats; how to identify avenues of approach and danger areas; exit strategies; conflict resolution and threat mitigation techniques; precision firearms use and post-fight plans.


http://www.lmsdefense.com/lms/home/course/19

Mace

[Jay Cunningham]

Now if your loved ones are like mine, they are grass eaters and there's not a f**king thing you can do to make them anything else, no matter how hard you try. Thus should I find myself in a nasty situation I am on my own, and my only real option is to put myself between the threat and my loved ones because they'll be too busy going "what?" when the actual threat is developing to take proper action.

I remember that story you told one time... wasn't it a gas station? I can sympathize - I can easily see my wife arguing with me even if her life was in imminent danger because I dared try "tell her what to do"... I just don't have a strong enough "pimp hand"...

:(

[John_Wayne777]

I can easily see my wife arguing with me even if her life was in imminent danger because I dared try "tell her what to do"... I just don't have a strong enough "pimp hand"...


People in general just have no clue what on earth is going on around them. Even many of the folks I know who carry guns walk around essentially asleep on a daily basis. When I am hanging out with them I routinely pick up on stuff they are absolutely oblivious to.

For instance:

I'm dropping off a night deposit for my church. I'm in the car with another member of the finance committee. I pull up to the bank and he starts to open the door, but I haven't stopped yet. He's looking at me like I'm nuts because I circle the premises of the bank looking in all the spots trouble can try to hide in.

"What are you doing?"

"Making sure the area is clear before we leave the safety of the vehicle."

"Well we have guns, man...."

"Yes, and if somebody hops out of the bushes with a gun of their own I guaran-damn-tee you that you'd suddenly be wishing we had checked the place out more thoroughly before stopping."

"I never thought of it that way."

"You'd better start. That gun on your hip is a defensive tool, not a magic talisman that wards off evil or magically gets you out of trouble. Deliberate, thoughtful action often keeps you from having to try and use a handgun to save your life. The world has enough suck in it without aimlessly wandering into big piles of it by not thinking things through."

...and all this happened AFTER that very bank location had seen MULTIPLE armed robberies by somebody hopping out of the bushes while somebody made a night deposit. There was no excuse for not being aware of the potential dangers and taking at least some action to deal with them.

I've never found a way to, as Ken Hackathorn put it, "turn a grass-eater into a meat-eater."

The reality of dealing with a dangerous situation with your loved ones present is that they will likely be victims of sheeple inertia. If you see a bad situation developing and recognize it for what it is, it's unlikely you'll be able to effectively communicate the gravity of the situation to the herbivores in your party before the badness starts.

"We have to leave right now."

"What? Why? I haven't paid for this yet."

"DROP IT. We have to leave ***this instant***."

"WHY? What are you so worked up about?"

Etc. People in general don't know how to listen when something bad is happening.

Another good example. I'm at the local university in class. The fire alarm sounds and a police officer shows up at the door telling everybody to get the hell out.

The professor: "What's going on? Is something wrong?"

Officer: "Ma'am, I don't have time. You need to evacuate the building right now."

Now while the rest of the class is sitting there looking at each other and the professor is playing annoy the hell out of the cop, JW777's brain has instantly leaped to the conclusion that there's likely a bomb threat. He's grabbing his stuff and heading out the door.

The poor police are doing their best to try and clear the building...but nobody is taking them seriously. When the f**king police show up at the door and breathlessly tell you to leave RIGHT NOW, you OBEY THE ORDER. They ain't giving it because they are bored. When you see the cops trying desperately to form a perimeter, you don't loiter in the area. When guys from the SWAT team start showing up and throwing on their ninja gear and chambering rounds in their MP5 you don't stick around to see what it's all about.

You would THINK these things would be signs that even the most retarded person on earth could interpret as bad news, but a building full of PHD's and other "educated" individuals couldn't seem to figure out that they needed to find somewhere else to be. Had the threat been real, there would have been people killed/injured because they were too stupid to heed the warning. There would have also been first responders killed/wounded because they were trying to get the sheeple to move away from danger.

I've come to call this "sheeple inertia", a state most people live in where they are unaware of any danger whatsoever until the bullets start flying and/or stuff starts blowing up. Unfortunately if your loved ones don't develop the proper mindset they will be dead weight or even obstacles should stuff go sideways. Just be prepared to deal with it.

[RD62]

Damn brother!

Can I get an AMEN? Preach on it!

Good stuff! I like your mind set.

-RD62

P.S. Don't dumb people like that piss you off? They sure aggravate the crap out of me.

[markm]

Take John Wayne777's post a step further and take it to he World Trade Center collapse.

A great many people in sheeple intertia were killed when the structures fell. (Of course I realize that some rescuers were heading into the building too)

[CarlosDJackal]

...A great many people in sheeple intertia were killed when the structures fell. (Of course I realize that some rescuers were heading into the building too)

Which actually proves his point as well.

"Sheeple Inertia" - do you mind if I use that term? :D

This phenomenon is the same reason a lot of traffic jams and "follow-on accidents" occur on our roads. This is why we have so many rubberneckers out there. Instead of accepting what they see (ie: some guy changing a flat tire on the side of the Interstate), they have to linger to see if there more to it than meets the eye. And it has nothing to do with wanting to help, either. :rolleyes:

[Ben Lenett]

I had that situation reference running into people I have arrested, and then having an issue as a result. It was quite unpleasent for all involved wnd most especially my wife.

My wife and I have a "word" that we use. If she hears that "word", she knows to shut up, walk away from me immediately towards a populated public area, and to call 911 with a description of who I am/what I look like/and what happened. She may not know what is happening, but she will at least be able to get the general point across to the dispatcher in question.

[ToddG]

I think key point #1 is that you have to at least talk to your spouse and other close family members about these things. Start with non-violent catastrophes in the home things (what to do if there's a fire; what to do if there's an earthquake/tornado/flood). Once the family is in the mindset of "staying safe in the face of danger," you can take the next step of discussing a break-in. Once everyone is cool with that, talk about how things should work if you're out and about.

I consider myself very lucky that my wife has been through four pistol classes and has a couple days worth of Simunition training hiding somewhere in the back of her mind behind the latest episode of Rachel Ray and homemade greeting card designs. In fact, my wife is a completely different person when she's threatened ... something I never realized until the first time I used her as a role-player and she surprised everyone by being a ruthless, violent, foul-mouthed little girl. I was so proud. :cool:

Walking around with my wife is like driving with my wife ... my behavior changes. There are stupid things I've been known to do while driving that I wouldn't do with her in the car because I wouldn't risk her getting hurt. There are places I've been that I'd never bring my wife. There have been times I've left an area or situation because she was with me.

Does anyone remember the Secret Service guy who got into a gunfight off-duty at a mall last year? He was there with his family. His wife, when the shooting happened, pretty much froze according to folks at the Service who told me the story. His daughter (I want to say she was pre-teen) grabbed her little brother, dragged him behind a big garbage can, threw him to the ground, jumped on top of him to protect him, and then called 911 to let them know her daddy was a cop and he was in a fight. That's just frakking awesome ...

[John_Wayne777]

Damn brother!

Can I get an AMEN? Preach on it!


'twas a bit of a rant, looking back upon it now....

It's just always been a pet peeve of mine to see people who are supposed to be adults who can't seem to figure out that flashing blue lights and police running around with drawn weapons means that if you ain't wearing a badge and body armor that you had best haul a$$....

But instead I've actually witnessed with my own two eyes multiple occasions when police officers were doing exactly that and stupid MFers have actually been OFFENDED when an officer looked at them and said in a stern tone "GET THE F**K OUT OF HERE."

"Well he didn't have to be so mean!!"

Ya, lady...he was only trying to get you a safe distance from a developing threat. We should horse-whip him in the town square for his insolence.



P.S. Don't dumb people like that piss you off?


To no end. If something bad is happening and you aren't equipped to deal with it or don't have the authority to deal with it, the best thing you can do for EVERYBODY is get out of the way of the 1st responders. If you can see that they need help, help, but for God's sake it ain't a friggin' spectator sport.

This same inertia is what I've seen in friends and family on the few occasions when I've been trying to act in their interest. They are oblivious, and then when you're trying to make the urgency of the situation known, they become incredulous at the tone you are taking.

Meanwhile Osama Bin Laden himself could be setting the timer on a nuclear bomb ten feet away (maybe the combination of BO and goat smell would tip them off at ten feet) and they'll be oblivious to anything but the fact that you yelled at them.

...and it ain't just women, either. Most of the people I am ranting about are MEN. There are guys who ask me why I never invite them to go to something like a Vickers course with me.

Part of the reason is because they wouldn't ever put the money down to do something like that....the main reason, however, is that I know they can't handle taking instruction from somebody who knows more than they do, not even if the guy is a bona-fide Special Forces superman. They're perfectly lovely people in most respects but they're also the kind of people who think that a Marine DI yelling at the kids who show up at Paris Island is just barbaric.

"It puts them under so much stress!"

They just don't get it, and short of God Himself hitting them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and telling them to cut that crap out in a Divine "You shoulda paid more attention in school!" moment, they never will.

Darn...I've gone and ranted again.

[John_Wayne777]

That's just frakking awesome ...

That's kind of what I'm talking about....it seems to my untrained, unprofessional, didn't even stay at the motel 6 last night self that some people are just born with a cool head and the ability to make the right calls under pressure. You can see it in all sorts of professions and walks of life.

Medicine is a good example. There are people walking around hospitals every day charged with patient care who come apart at the seems if somebody codes on them....I mean they freak right the hell out. There are others who want to play lookie loo and see what's going on....

Then, thankfully, there are some folks who have the mental preparation and training necessary to bring order to the chaos and actually attempt to do the patient some good. The freakouts and the in-the-way lookie-loos have the same certifications and get paid the same money, but they can't handle a critical incident to save their life, much less anyone else's.

[John_Wayne777]

"Sheeple Inertia" - do you mind if I use that term? :D


By all means.

And it serves another useful purpose....when somebody is exhibiting this behavior and it angers you to the point where you are ready to cuss a blue streak at them, just draw a deep breath, look them in the eye, and with all your might exclaim:

"BAAA-AAAA-AAAA-AAAA-AAAA-AAAA"

Which pretty much sums up how you are feeling without verbalizing it in such a way that you can get hauled before a supervisor for swearing profusely at a member of the public.

[RD62]

I remember on more than one occasion, some Joe Smoe pulling up or walking up during a felony car stop or similar, to ask directions or some other nonsense. It's like HELLO, bright flashing blue lights, guns, big boy voices, did you not see whats going on??? Wait over there and I'll be with you after this fight/arrest/whatever is over.... Homeowners/business owners who want to follow/lead you through the clearing of their house/store/office.... I have the gun and body armor, but after you... I've had to knock and or kick doors open to get residents out of an apartment building fire.... There were a dozen fire engines and patrol cars with sirens and flashing lights, smoke, flames, news choppers... What the hell people, Judge Joe Brown can wait! get the F^&*% out! It goes on... And I wasn't even in LE THAT long!


-RD62

[Hootiewho]

I appreciate the good feedback and would like more; especially on habits and tactics.

examples:
- When you and your girl are in a populated area maybe going around corners/buildings first, so that she is not subject to being grabbed by a mugger waiting in a blind spot.

-Keeping her or your children on your support side when walking.

-Going back to good ol' chivalry, and making sure you open the car door for her or your kids, especially in large parking areas at night, so as you don't end up in a situation where you jump in first and someone in hiding runs out and grabs here before she can get into the car; also maybe in real bad areas, hitting the lock on the remote until you can get around to your side to prevent anyone from jumping in with here, or with the both of you.

-In traffic, if you run into a situation where you are assaulted either by another vehicle (road rage) or by a pedestrian (car jacking), maybe have a code word for her or whoever is in the car with you to hit the seat recline and lay back to get out of the way, keep from getting shot, or having glass debris blown in her face.

Do you guys have any thoughs on other situations not covered?

Thanks Again

[Barry in IN]

We train for one on one engagements, but how often do we take into account having a spouse, child, or friend with us at the time of use of deadly force?

I'm a stay-home dad, so I pretty much expect that if I am involved in anything, I will have at least one kid with me.
Therefore, by extension, I expect to be shooting one-handed or "wrong"-handed. If it isn't as a result of the fight, it's from pulling/pushing/dragging the kid(s) clear.

So I try to do more one hand/weak-hand practice than I used to.

That's a start, but doesn't fully replicate dragging a screaming pre-schooler along while trying to shoot.
I shoot in the woods on our property, and I've thought about dragging a fallen limb around with one hand while shooting. Maybe I should take the dog and tie him to my wrist. That would cause a struggle.

While on the subject...
Most of us are probably in the habit of locating all the exits in restaurants and businesses when we enter.
But what about your family? Do they?
The fact that we located the exits is nice, but just in case something should happen while we are seperated (like if one of us goes to the restroom), my wife and I quiz our kids on exits when we sit down. The 4 y.o. still thinks it's a fun game like I Spy, but the 8 y.o. is getting bored with it (Yes, Dad, I know there is usually an exit through the kitchen of the restaurant), but at least she knows to check now. It's one thing we know we did right.