View Full Version : I take it back. No more Tula.
Friday morning I head to the range to test out some new things on the rifle. Tried to run some drills.
I've happened to accumulate quite a bit of steel cased ammo as its a cheaper alternative and usually was about the only thing available. I considered it cheap practice.
However, I decided to burn through it today. This is how it went:
- Wolf WPA: whole mag went through flawlessly.
- Tula: not even two rounds in fails to pickup a round. Rack it. 3 rounds later. Same. The rest of the mag can only be described as single shot at best. Sometimes it wouldn't even reset the trigger, I even had one failure to extract in that same mag.
-move on to some PMC bronze. 20 round box went through flawlessly.
-lake city M193...... Like a champ
- Winchester M855 clone. Do you even have to ask? Not a single problem.
- Switch back to Tula. Same crap.
- Find one box of older Tula. Flawless.
When the Tula was failing to pick up another round I noticed it was ejecting really weak and would eject very far back. So bad my shell deflector is dinged up. Whenever I could get a string it would eject about 4:30ish and alot stronger.
It almost seems like Tula has changed something. Like they've changed their load, powder, etc. It's almost like the powder is burning/peaking to fast. This is all .223 55g Tula. Newer production.
Specs on my rifle:
- 16" DD midlength barrel
- ?.076 gas port?
- BCM BCG
- Vltor A5 with A5H3 and green springco spring
- Was using Pmags.
Tula....that bargain basement temptress.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
ETA:
It's almost like the powder is burning/peaking to fast.
Spot on, but I doesnt seem that they've changed anything. This has been a flaw all along. If you read the article above look for their findings on Tula.
Just off the top of my head I believe your buffer/spring combo may have been the issue. You are using the H3 which, IIRC, is 6 oz instead of 5.2 oz like the standard AS buffer.
See below what Sprinco says about the Green spring.
"GREEN Spring" In addition to use in 5.56 Fixed Stock Rifles, our “GREEN Spring” is just the ticket for use in the VLTOR A-5 Stock System using their standard weight (5.2 Oz.) buffer for maximum versatility with almost any 5.56 upper BBL configuration, both with or without a “can”. Color Coded GREEN.
Edited to add A5 H3 info I found.
VLTOR A5 H3 Buffer 6oz
Specifically designed for the Vltor A5 Buffer System - This is a special application heavy buffer, in some applications, such as severely over pressured rifles, piston operated guns and normally suppressed guns, a heavier buffer may be required.
The Tula ammo is generally under pressured along with the heavier buffer and the green spring I can see the issues you described happening. I bet Tula would run better if you switched back to the standard 5.2 oz A5 buffer.
polymorpheous
06-01-13, 06:32
Is the barrel a 14.5"?
The gas port specs out big for a 16" otherwise.
Just off the top of my head I believe your buffer/spring combo may have been the issue. You are using the H3 which, IIRC, is 6 oz instead of 5.2 oz like the standard AS buffer.
See below what Sprinco says about the Green spring.
"GREEN Spring" In addition to use in 5.56 Fixed Stock Rifles, our “GREEN Spring” is just the ticket for use in the VLTOR A-5 Stock System using their standard weight (5.2 Oz.) buffer for maximum versatility with almost any 5.56 upper BBL configuration, both with or without a “can”. Color Coded GREEN.
The Wolf ammo is generally underpowered along with the heavier buffer and the green spring I can see the issues you described happening. I bet Wolf/Tula would run better if you switched back to the standard 5.2 oz A5 buffer.
A5H3 buffer is 6.08 oz.
ffhounddog
06-01-13, 06:35
Most Tula that has been problematic for some I have been able to run it in my Carbine with H buffer or a Piston gun.
sounds like you had a bad batch. i've run about 500 rounds through mine with exactly 1 failure to load due to a improperly sized case. that said, i started to have a failure to lock the bolt back on my BCM 16 middy.have switched back to brass.
Is the barrel a 14.5"?
The gas port specs out big for a 16" otherwise.I had to contact DD and ask a question last week and they told me that the gas port size was .75 and that it was the same for a 16" or 14.5. Unless the person I spoke with was wrong or didn't understand what I was asking, that is what they told me.
Never use that junk in any of my guns.
I had to contact DD and ask a question last week and they told me that the gas port size was .75 and that it was the same for a 16" or 14.5. Unless the person I spoke with was wrong or didn't understand what I was asking, that is what they told me.
Isn't 0.75" the diameter of the barrel at the gas port? The gas port should be 0.0xx, like 0.077" for example.
I think the person you spoke with got confused and gave you the dimension for the barrel diameter at the gas port, not the actual diameter of the gas port hole.
Edit: you listed it correctly in the original post, 0.076, so disregard.
Tula....that bargain basement temptress.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
ETA:
Spot on, but I doesnt seem that they've changed anything. This has been a flaw all along. If you read the article above look for their findings on Tula.
I don't remember reading that last bit on lucky gunners review. Interesting.....
Just off the top of my head I believe your buffer/spring combo may have been the issue. You are using the H3 which, IIRC, is 6 oz instead of 5.2 oz like the standard AS buffer.
See below what Sprinco says about the Green spring.
"GREEN Spring" In addition to use in 5.56 Fixed Stock Rifles, our “GREEN Spring” is just the ticket for use in the VLTOR A-5 Stock System using their standard weight (5.2 Oz.) buffer for maximum versatility with almost any 5.56 upper BBL configuration, both with or without a “can”. Color Coded GREEN.
Edited to add A5 H3 info I found.
VLTOR A5 H3 Buffer 6oz
Specifically designed for the Vltor A5 Buffer System - This is a special application heavy buffer, in some applications, such as severely over pressured rifles, piston operated guns and normally suppressed guns, a heavier buffer may be required.
The Tula ammo is generally under pressured along with the heavier buffer and the green spring I can see the issues you described happening. I bet Tula would run better if you switched back to the standard 5.2 oz A5 buffer.
The H3 was the only buffer I purchased. I bought my A5 kit piece by piece. This rifle did this yesterday with both the standard spring and the green spring. I could also tell a difference between the two springs especially with the M193 and M855.
Is the barrel a 14.5"?
The gas port specs out big for a 16" otherwise.
That's my mistake. My barrel is a 16". Would you happen to know what it should be at?
I just find it very odd that the buffer and spring combo would cause this. It did cycle PMC bronze, which is known to be "weak", just fine. It was ejecting strong, no malfunctions.
Kind of apples to oranges but I run tula in my 7.62x39 AR15 and the pressure is high enough to leave slight swipes on the case head. Its a 16" bbl, carbine gas, standard carbine spring, and spikes T2 buffer.
I have shot the .223 tula in a bone stock bushmaster m4 clone and it was a single shot gun with it. But my buddy's colt eats the stuff like candy. Some guns like it some don't.
My best answer is to sell it if it doesn't work for you instead of investing in more parts to make it work in your gun. Otherwise you waste all that money you saved when you bought the cheaper ammo.
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polymorpheous
06-01-13, 08:13
That's my mistake. My barrel is a 16". Would you happen to know what it should be at?
If I remember correctly, BCM specs their 16" midlength barrels out at .0625".
If I remember correctly, BCM specs their 16" midlength barrels out at .0625".
My barrel is a Daniel Defense. I was just going off information somebody gave me.
polymorpheous
06-01-13, 08:31
My barrel is a Daniel Defense. I was just going off information somebody gave me.
Oh, I know.
I think BCM kind of set a standard for the mid-length.
My opinion.
However, it gives you a good idea of what the gas port should be close to.
At .076" I would think yours would be over gassed.
Which means that the Tula is grossly underpowered.
Suwannee Tim
06-01-13, 08:51
I have shot a couple of thousand rounds of Tula with no issues except a couple of primers inserted backwards. It's pretty obvious that Tula is not up to US standards but it's cheap and it goes bang most of the time. If it cycles your gun then what's not to love? If if doesn't cycle your gun, sell it to someone with a bolt gun. I am looking for several thousand rounds at a decent price, I have reloaded the Boxer primed steel cases and they work fine at least for one reload. If I can re-use the case one time then Tula is not cheap but really cheap.
Be sure to distinguish bad ammo from bad combinations of gun and ammo. TulAmmo and the Herters branded Tula will run in many guns. It is too close to functional threshold in others, esp those with combinations of smaller or in-spec gas ports, buffer and spring mods (heavy), mid-lengths, etc.
Credit and blame where it is due.
If I remember correctly, BCM specs their 16" midlength barrels out at .0625".
That would be the gas port size for a 14.5"-16" carbine.
polymorpheous
06-01-13, 09:21
That would be the gas port size for a 14.5"-16" carbine.
I stand corrected!
Get rid of theTubbs spring and get a blue Springco spring, and use an H buffer. The port size of that midlength is around. 074-.076 off the top of my head.
My read: over sprung/buffered. Did you have a reason to go with the H3?
Sometimes I think we over analyze builds, and jump to remedial parts before we should.
Also, how many rounds thru the rifle? It may settle in once you get 1-2k through it.
We shoot Tula and wolf by the case in ar's & mini GB's. It works.
---sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
steyrman13
06-01-13, 09:40
FYI it worked fine on one box of older TULA. It was the newer Tula it had problems with. Do you have anymore of the older Tula to try? It might be a bad run....
Like they've changed their load, powder, etc.
...and now skim-coat the case with the stuff used to make 80-grit sandpaper....
Anybody using steel-case anything, and has trouble with sticking/misfeeds/whatever isn't crazy to consider pre-lubing the exterior of the rounds before using them.
A few drops of lube on a facial tissue or paper towel, or one of those silicone gun-cloths.
Toss that in a double or triple-bagged plastic shopping bag.
Add steel-case ammo to the bag.
Do this: http://gifs.gifbin.com/g65099386.gif
Voila. That high-friction steel casing is now less WAY likely to seize on anything (including EACH OTHER, while in the mag).
Jam your mags. Ensure you have a well-lubed gun, in general (steel-case benefits form more than the usual "good enough" lube job using brass-cased ammo), that's had lube applied to the chamber in particular, to keep the extra smut the steel-case is blasting into your chamber (because it doesn't deform as correctly as brass) from sticking
One benefits from taking extra steps with steel-cased ammo, and that's just to have a measure of prevention for problems that have nothing to do with the stuff having all the pop of a 3/8" bubble-wrap cell. You're asking a lot of that stuff, with an H3 buffer....
Be careful with lube on cases and in the chamber! It can quickly raise the pressure of any load.
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This is correct...
...IF you POUR lube into the chamber by the ounce, and if you're a bench-rest guy worried about shifting stuff .0000017" to the starboard from altered chamber pressures or a meteorite strike in atmo altering regional air pressures.
Every time I tell somebody shooting steel-case to lube the chamber, we get some fastidious Felix Unger-type that 1) envisions a 6gal jug of lube being cascaded into an upper, 2) wants to bring up something that is of no real consequence to a shooter willing to feed Wolf/Tula in a gun, and 3) the consequences that MIGHT exist being less likely to occur than me being elected Pope.
Let's get real. We're talking about ammo in which a pressure spike would probably be of benefit to it's performance. 855 is about 55k. 855A1 is about 61k. Proof-load is 72k. TRY to tell us that Wolf/Tula is generating pressures worthwhile of fearing a pressure-spike when the skimmiest of skim-coats of lubrication from being tumbled in a bag with a lube-dampened rag is introduced.
My read: over sprung/buffered. Did you have a reason to go with the H3?
Sometimes I think we over analyze builds, and jump to remedial parts before we should.
Also, how many rounds thru the rifle? It may settle in once you get 1-2k through it.
We shoot Tula and wolf by the case in ar's & mini GB's. It works.
---sent from my PRC-104 using phonetics
I mainly went with the A5H3 because its what I could find. I was actually advised to use the A5H2 or H3 for it. I doubt its the spring. It would do it with my standard spring as well. The older spring had about 1k on it. The green springco now has about 300rds on it.
FYI it worked fine on one box of older TULA. It was the newer Tula it had problems with. Do you have anymore of the older Tula to try? It might be a bad run....
Nope only had the one box. Found it hiding in the bottom of an ammo can. Stamps were much clearer and the casings were darker. All this new stuff I've picked up recently is lighter and the stampings are faint at best. Like they are rushing this stuff out.
...and now skim-coat the case with the stuff used to make 80-grit sandpaper....
Anybody using steel-case anything, and has trouble with sticking/misfeeds/whatever isn't crazy to consider pre-lubing the exterior of the rounds before using them.
A few drops of lube on a facial tissue or paper towel, or one of those silicone gun-cloths.
Toss that in a double or triple-bagged plastic shopping bag.
Add steel-case ammo to the bag.
Do this: http://gifs.gifbin.com/g65099386.gif
Voila. That high-friction steel casing is now less WAY likely to seize on anything (including EACH OTHER, while in the mag).
Jam your mags. Ensure you have a well-lubed gun, in general (steel-case benefits form more than the usual "good enough" lube job using brass-cased ammo), that's had lube applied to the chamber in particular, to keep the extra smut the steel-case is blasting into your chamber (because it doesn't deform as correctly as brass) from sticking
One benefits from taking extra steps with steel-cased ammo, and that's just to have a measure of prevention for problems that have nothing to do with the stuff having all the pop of a 3/8" bubble-wrap cell. You're asking a lot of that stuff, with an H3 buffer....
I think you are right. The H3 is overkill on the fast burning/weak stuff they are loaded with.
I think we can all agree that the Tula ammo is the root of my problem, and I need to stick with 5.56 or just run wolf if I'm picking up steel case fodder. Its just not right for the setup I have.
Is it safe to assume if I went with a lighter buffer I would probably been ok?
The proper port size based upon the TDP is .063 for a carbine. There is no spec for a mid length.
I don't remember reading that last bit on lucky gunners review. Interesting.....
The H3 was the only buffer I purchased. I bought my A5 kit piece by piece. This rifle did this yesterday with both the standard spring and the green spring. I could also tell a difference between the two springs especially with the M193 and M855.
That's my mistake. My barrel is a 16". Would you happen to know what it should be at?
I just find it very odd that the buffer and spring combo would cause this. It did cycle PMC bronze, which is known to be "weak", just fine. It was ejecting strong, no malfunctions.
The Tula issue seems to be powder and inconsistency.
Interesting......
Be careful with lube on cases and in the chamber! It can quickly raise the pressure of any load.
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RogerinTPA
06-01-13, 14:55
I agree with JSantoro.
The switch to a case polymer coating causes excessive drag on mags (I've noticed FTFs in mags not polymer, Dry or teflon coated) and accumulates red primer sealants, powder residue & carbon in the chamber, causing stuck cases. I have shot probably 50K+ of steel ammo, mostly Wolf, but also Brown Bear, and Golden Tiger (last two being lacquered coated), to include using it in the majority of my carbine courses. I can't recall a stuck case with the last two and only a few with Wolf, which was like 3-4 times. That was 6 years ago, since then, I normally give the chamber a shot of lube (EWL or Balistol) and that took care of the stuck case issues.
People probably need to reconsider playing with heavy buffer weights and stronger buffer springs when using steel cased ammo. With under powered steel ammo, I've found the H buffer to be the max weight for carbine gas & midlengths, but I've also ran carbine buffers in both, with no ill effects. Although I've ran carbines up to 10K without replacing anything, I've personally settled on changing out the buffer spring, extractor and extractor springs every 7K-8K rounds fired will add to the reliability. The number was derived through personal observation, and it's what I'm comfortable with. Some advise every 5K, but think it's a bit excessive. YMMV.
...and now skim-coat the case with the stuff used to make 80-grit sandpaper....
Anybody using steel-case anything, and has trouble with sticking/misfeeds/whatever isn't crazy to consider pre-lubing the exterior of the rounds before using them.
A few drops of lube on a facial tissue or paper towel, or one of those silicone gun-cloths.
Toss that in a double or triple-bagged plastic shopping bag.
Add steel-case ammo to the bag.
Do this: http://gifs.gifbin.com/g65099386.gif
Voila. That high-friction steel casing is now less WAY likely to seize on anything (including EACH OTHER, while in the mag).
Jam your mags. Ensure you have a well-lubed gun, in general (steel-case benefits form more than the usual "good enough" lube job using brass-cased ammo), that's had lube applied to the chamber in particular, to keep the extra smut the steel-case is blasting into your chamber (because it doesn't deform as correctly as brass) from sticking
One benefits from taking extra steps with steel-cased ammo, and that's just to have a measure of prevention for problems that have nothing to do with the stuff having all the pop of a 3/8" bubble-wrap cell. You're asking a lot of that stuff, with an H3 buffer....
Exactly!
My setup: Rainier Arms BCG, DD 16" Carbine BBL (not sure about port size), Rainer Arms Upper, Stag Carbine buffer and spring, Rainier Arms XTC Comp.
Never had issues with Wolf (any kind).
Tula - I first tried them in PMAG, had a couple of misfeeds. I pulled the mag out, soaked the BCG in cheapo Winchester spray gun lube, then gave a few light, off center squirts into mag - emphasis on LIGHT. No issues afterwards.
Now if I have steel cased of any manufacturer, I just pull out the BCG and soak it in lube before shooting. Always works because the lube will automatically drip down into the mag and autolube the rounds, PMAG or GI - even if the weapon is hot after sending a few hundred down range.
:dirol:
The weak powder charge in most steel case ammo will not reach Max pressure because of lube in the chamber. But if you put enough lube in the chamber and shoot near maximum or maximum loads you can run into pressure signs rapidly.
These include swipes, flat primers, cratered primers, blown primers, and popped primers. Read about it in a reloading book. Think about it for a second too.
Calibers are design with a specific Max pressure in mind. The calculations for this involve the amount of space in the chamber when the round is fired and the case expands. Excessive lube in a chamber reduces the volume or space in the chamber the brass or steel must expand. If the space is reduced more pressure can be created by the same amount of powder charge.
May not happen with weak steel .223 loads in a 5.56 chamber.
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Luckygunner.com did a test where they bought 4 identical bushmasters for a steel vs brass test. They bought 10,000 rounds of 4 different types of ammo, brass, steel, steel laquer coated and one other type of ammo. Two of the brands were federal and tulammo. The federal bushmaster fired ALL 10,000rds without one single malfunction and the tulammo bushmaster didn't even make it through 3/4 of the batch before the firearm was rendered useless. At the end they cut different parts of the rifle in pieces to further investigate. It was really a pretty informative write up. Anyhow the consensus was that after 10000 rounds regardless of the ammo the barrels were toast but tulammo is probably the worst round to put through your weapon.
Check it out: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
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Wormydog1724
06-01-13, 19:41
Approx. 600 rounds through a DD 10.3" CHF barrel with no issues. Spike's T2 buffer, Micro adustable gas block, BCM BCG, AAC SDN6 and without.
120 rounds through a BCM 11.5" BFH barrel and BC 2.0, all else was the same. No issues.
I realize this is just 2 barrels and a relatively low round count, but at the time Tula was cheap and available. If I can find it again for around $200/1k, I'll definitely buy some more.
In regards to the cases, I wonder if putting them in a tumbler for 30 minutes would help clean the cases? or make them worse and leading to stuck cases? Since I'm not having any issues, and only have 300 rounds left I won't be trying this. Just a thought.
I swore off Tula a long time ago. I've had issues with their .223, .40 and .45. Never again.
STONE-YARDER
06-02-13, 00:37
It still amazes me that people drop 3k on a rifle,optic and accessories then run the cheapest low grade eastern block garbage ammo and wonder why their rifle is malfunctioning... :suicide:
It still amazes me that people drop 3k on a rifle,optic and accessories then run the cheapest low grade eastern block garbage ammo and wonder why their rifle is malfunctioning... :suicide:
I don't really understand the concept of what could be wrong with this. I don't think anyone who shoots the cheap stuff as training ammo ever considers it as an effective defensive round. While my 2 carbines have never had an issue with the few thousand rounds of steel I've ran through them, even if they did, malf clearing is also a skill that needs practice to remain proficient IMO.
I don't see an Issue. Tula is a training round. Use it for training. If it malfunctions, practice clearing it and move on.
Sure tula burns a barrel faster...barrels are wear items.
If your not shooting as much as you can your not training as well as you could be.
The_War_Wagon
06-02-13, 05:10
Commie ammo, for commie guns.
There's a reason this truism exists...
Approx. 600 rounds through a DD 10.3" CHF barrel with no issues. Spike's T2 buffer, Micro adustable gas block, BCM BCG, AAC SDN6 and without.
120 rounds through a BCM 11.5" BFH barrel and BC 2.0, all else was the same. No issues.
I realize this is just 2 barrels and a relatively low round count, but at the time Tula was cheap and available. If I can find it again for around $200/1k, I'll definitely buy some more.
In regards to the cases, I wonder if putting them in a tumbler for 30 minutes would help clean the cases? or make them worse and leading to stuck cases? Since I'm not having any issues, and only have 300 rounds left I won't be trying this. Just a thought.
I am betting the shorter gas system helps.
It still amazes me that people drop 3k on a rifle,optic and accessories then run the cheapest low grade eastern block garbage ammo and wonder why their rifle is malfunctioning... :suicide:
Just training ammo my friend.
I don't see an Issue. Tula is a training round. Use it for training. If it malfunctions, practice clearing it and move on.
Sure tula burns a barrel faster...barrels are wear items.
If your not shooting as much as you can your not training as well as you could be.
That's right, the bimetal projectiles will wear the barrel faster. And it's been proven that the money you'd save shooting the cheaper ammo more than pays for a new barrel.
Commie ammo, for commie guns.
There's a reason this truism exists...
So that's why my WASR would eat it like candy......
An option I may have to consider is hunting for a lighter buffer to try with the Tula. If it runs, I keep using it. Or just use Wolf.
Or if it doesn't, I'll just keep buying M855 and M193, plus whatever clones I'll more than likely come across first. :rolleyes:
I respect my weapons too much to run crap through them.
Tula works great in my piston MRP.
All of my DI guns choke on it. Usually short strokes or stuck cases.
polymorpheous
06-02-13, 11:23
Let's not try and troll this tread into a steel case vs. brass case debate.
It's been done a thousand times on this board.
The important thing is to get out and shoot and train.
RogerinTPA
06-02-13, 13:02
I respect my weapons too much to run crap through them.
It's not about 'respect' because it's simply a tool and inexpensive ammo is a training opportunity. I have run most of my ARs (2x 6920s, 1x LMT MRP, 1 DD LW and a new DD MK18 I'm putting through it's paces) up to 5K with just lube, shooting steel ammo reliably because people who don't shoot their guns enough said it couldn't be done, won't run and will damage your gun. It was all internet BS from some ignorant people regurgitating what they read from other ignorant people. If your weapon is tuned correctly, it should be able to run just about any ammo. If it won't, then it's either a poor tool selection (commercial grade gun with a 223 chamber) or ignorance of the user's part.
polymorpheous
06-02-13, 13:09
It's not about 'respect' because it's simply a tool and inexpensive ammo is a training opportunity. I have run most of my ARs (2x 6920s, 1x LMT MRP, 1 DD LW and a new DD MK18 I'm putting through it's paces) up to 5K with just lube, shooting steel ammo reliably because people who don't shoot their guns enough said it couldn't be done, won't run and will damage your gun. It was all internet BS from some ignorant people regurgitating what they read from other ignorant people. If your weapon is tuned correctly, it should be able to run just about any ammo. If it won't, then it's either a poor tool selection (commercial grade gun with a 223 chamber) or ignorance of the user's part.
Amen!
Let's not try and troll this tread into a steel case vs. brass case debate.
It's been done a thousand times on this board.
The important thing is to get out and shoot and train.
Thanks.
Just to make it clear, my original intentions was to figure out why it wasn't cycling in my gun. The title may come off a little degrading, but it wasn't the intention.
It's not about 'respect' because it's simply a tool and inexpensive ammo is a training opportunity. I have run most of my ARs (2x 6920s, 1x LMT MRP, 1 DD LW and a new DD MK18 I'm putting through it's paces) up to 5K with just lube, shooting steel ammo reliably because people who don't shoot their guns enough said it couldn't be done, won't run and will damage your gun. It was all internet BS from some ignorant people regurgitating what they read from other ignorant people. If your weapon is tuned correctly, it should be able to run just about any ammo. If it won't, then it's either a poor tool selection (commercial grade gun with a 223 chamber) or ignorance of the user's part.
You may want to read this. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
I never said my weapon wouldn't shoot it. I just won't use it. Maybe respect was the wrong choice of words.
You may want to read this. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
I never said my weapon wouldn't shoot it. I just won't use it. Maybe respect was the wrong choice of words.
Well, I guess it would be if it means you'll call it in the morning? :)
RogerinTPA
06-02-13, 14:19
I've read it. Although it's a good read, you shouldn't overly concern yourself with the results, unless you plan on regularly duplicating their test. I don't run my guns at their high rate of sustained fire and I certainly don't do bubba mag dumps. Every round sent down range and every drill preformed has a purpose. Rate of fire has everything to do with it, especially at their pace. One of my 6920s has well north of 20K rounds shooting almost exclusively Wolf, has been in 5 carbine courses and it still produces 3-4 inch groups at 200 yards.
No one is forcing you to use it, I'm just giving you my observations based on my experience, whether you choose to believe it or not. You have yet to document your training experience, ammo used or how it was used or how often it's used. I'm not responsible for you reading an article, not understanding the method of how the test was carried out, then taking it out of context. You don't want to use it, good on you.
You may want to read this. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
I never said my weapon wouldn't shoot it. I just won't use it. Maybe respect was the wrong choice of words.
You may want to read this. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
I never said my weapon wouldn't shoot it. I just won't use it. Maybe respect was the wrong choice of words.
Everybody and their mother has seen that link.
The very last part seems to escape everyone...with the graphs.
You could buy a replacement barrel after shooting tula and still come out ahead with more training rounds fired.
Steel is a win win. It's a gun. Use and replace.
Well, I guess it would be if it means you'll call it in the morning? :)
Good one.:p
I've read it. Although it's a good read, you shouldn't overly concern yourself with the results, unless you plan on regularly duplicating their test. I don't run my guns at their high rate of sustained fire and I certainly don't do bubba mag dumps. Every round sent down range and every drill preformed has a purpose. Rate of fire has everything to do with it, especially at their pace. One of my 6920s has well north of 20K rounds shooting almost exclusively Wolf, has been in 5 carbine courses and it still produces 3-4 inch groups at 200 yards.
No one is forcing you to use it, I'm just giving you my observations based on my experience, whether you choose to believe it or not. You have yet to document your training experience, ammo used or how it was used or how often it's used. I'm not responsible for you reading an article, not understanding the method of how the test was carried out, then taking it out of context. You don't want to use it, good on you.
Well...........Good on me then. I won't ever use it.
polymorpheous
06-02-13, 15:04
Heat kills barrels.
The volume of fire was a huge contributor to that test.
No one on this board is going to shoot like that.
The bi-metal bullet was not the sole factor in those barrels being shot out.
Roger beat me to it.
I've read it. Although it's a good read, you shouldn't overly concern yourself with the results, unless you plan on regularly duplicating their test. I don't run my guns at their high rate of sustained fire and I certainly don't do bubba mag dumps. Every round sent down range and every drill preformed has a purpose. Rate of fire has everything to do with it, especially at their pace. One of my 6920s has well north of 20K rounds shooting almost exclusively Wolf, has been in 5 carbine courses and it still produces 3-4 inch groups at 200 yards.
No one is forcing you to use it, I'm just giving you my observations based on my experience, whether you choose to believe it or not. You have yet to document your training experience, ammo used or how it was used or how often it's used. I'm not responsible for you reading an article, not understanding the method of how the test was carried out, then taking it out of context. You don't want to use it, good on you.
I think the lucky gunner test was more of a torture test rather than a real world test. Thankyou for you inputs.
Littlelebowski
06-02-13, 15:52
I will pay shipping for Tula ammo to my address.
RogerinTPA
06-02-13, 15:58
I think the lucky gunner test was more of a torture test rather than a real world test. Thankyou for you inputs.
Agreed, using just about the crappiest commercial grade AR being produced. I'm surprised no injuries resulted from that test. I wonder how 4 military grade or CFH barrels would have performed.
It's an AR, to be operated as an AR, not a belt fed...
Agreed, using just about the crappiest commercial grade AR being produced. I'm surprised no injuries resulted from that test. I wonder how 4 military grade or CFH barrels would have performed.
I wondered about this too as I read through their review. I was actually surprised the BMs did as well as they did, given their reputation on this board.
If only I could find it in bulk somewhere.....even wolf for that matter.
I will pay shipping for Tula ammo to my address.
Wormydog1724
06-02-13, 16:12
If only I could find it in bulk somewhere.....even wolf for that matter.
Group buy?
jk
It still amazes me that people drop 3k on a rifle,optic and accessories then run the cheapest low grade eastern block garbage ammo and wonder why their rifle is malfunctioning... :suicide:
I don't really understand the concept of what could be wrong with this. I don't think anyone who shoots the cheap stuff as training ammo ever considers it as an effective defensive round. While my 2 carbines have never had an issue with the few thousand rounds of steel I've ran through them, even if they did, malf clearing is also a skill that needs practice to remain proficient IMO.
Not directed at either of the above specifically, but they offer a good jumping off point.
Understand the PURPOSE, strengths, and limitations of a given load. I have various .223 and 5.56 loads, including Speer Gold Dots, Mk262, 50gr TSX. They go in guns used for important tasks. When those guns go out to work certain drills, make noise, accumulate round counts, the lower end may meet the need. If the choice is an intelligent and calculated one, leave it be.
Steel cased ammo, in and of itself, is not bad. Steel is material reliant upon the methods of man and machine using it. Indicting steel ammo as a whole excludes the better steel offerings from BHA and Hornady, both of whom are doing good things with steel cases.
RogerinTPA
06-02-13, 16:36
I wondered about this too as I read through their review. I was actually surprised the BMs did as well as they did, given their reputation on this board.
BM has upped their quality game over the years, especially since M4C has been around, with facts and user experience, showing time and time again how far down the food chain they are. Believe it or not, M4C via the Chart, is responsible for so many commercial grade manufacturers increasing their quality and the reason for so much butt hurt on other forums. The reliability is still sub par for the purposes of what the majority of members here would use an AR for. The trick is marketing and myth. BM/RRA/Stag/Oly and others bank on the average shooter to use under powered ammo, using it once or twice a year, doing a few mag dumps while shooting dirt clods and beer cans, being used more as a show and tell prop during the holidays, then collecting dust in the back of the closet the rest of the year.
Unless you are a member on this, or other quality firearms forum, shooting how we used to shoot prior to Sandy Hook (I was shooting 18-20K rounds of pistol, carbine and the occasional shotgun a year, now not so much), the average male shooter will never notice. It's the reason why most gun store clerks think and try their damndest to convince a customer, that they ar all the same.
I'd kill to get about 1k in my hands :D
Group buy?
jk
BM has upped their quality game over the years, especially since M4C has been around, with facts and user experience, showing time and time again how far down the food chain they are. Believe it or not, M4C via the Chart, is responsible for so many commercial grade manufacturers increasing their quality and the reason for so much butt hurt on other forums. The reliability is still sub par for the purposes of what the majority of members here would use an AR for. The trick is marketing and myth. BM/RRA/Stag/Oly and others bank on the average shooter to use under powered ammo, using it once or twice a year, doing a few mag dumps while shooting dirt clods and beer cans, being used more as a show and tell prop during the holidays, then collecting dust in the back of the closet the rest of the year.
Unless you are a member on this, or other quality firearms forum, shooting how we used to shoot prior to Sandy Hook (I was shooting 18-20K rounds of pistol, carbine and the occasional shotgun a year, now not so much), the average male shooter will never notice. It's the reason why most gun store clerks think and try their damndest to convince a customer, that they ar all the same.
It's a little scary to know they've upped their game and the people performing the test still got two out of four rifles with only 5 ft/lbs of torque on the barrel nuts.
RogerinTPA
06-02-13, 22:16
It's a little scary to know they've upped their game and the people performing the test still got two out of four rifles with only 5 ft/lbs of torque on the barrel nuts.
Allegedly...:jester:
Ran about 350 rounds of Tula in my PredatAR on Sunday. Was very disappointing to get one malfunction, a stuck case. It was solved easily enough with a cleaning rod, but still upsetting. It may have been because the rifle was almost completely dry. After removing the case the ammo ran flawlessly for about another 100 rounds.
I have run about 5000-6000 rounds of Wolf through my BM without a single hick-up. I thought they were made it he same plant with the same specs, maybe not.
Can't afford to shoot brass at current prices and don't want to stop shooting.
I've been watching this thread and reading it as it progressed. I recently bought some tula and my son and I have been running it in our AR's. He has a DPMS that I bought him for a wedding present and I have a 6920 I just picked up. We have fired about 200 rnds of the tula in each rifle, both rifles bought within a day of each other. He went to shoot some yesterday and his DPMS would jam about every other shot, there had been 0 problems up until then. We cleaned the rifle good, applied lots of lube today, tried again and the same thing, but with brass ammo. I pulled the BCG out of my Colt and dropped into his DPMS and it ran great, even with the Tula. As I was watching him shoot I noticed with the DPMS BCG it would eject weak, but with the Colt BCG it would eject correctly. Pulled both, layed them side by side for comparison and his extractor showed a lot of wear. I'm wondering if this is the result of the Tula ammo. I know the DPMS is not top notch and is also to blame. Anyway, got online and searched out some replacement extractors and ordered two. Wanted to replace the whole bolt but that's not easy to do currently.
Littlelebowski
06-03-13, 16:25
I've been watching this thread and reading it as it progressed. I recently bought some tula and my son and I have been running it in our AR's. He has a DPMS that I bought him for a wedding present and I have a 6920 I just picked up. We have fired about 200 rnds of the tula in each rifle, both rifles bought within a day of each other. He went to shoot some yesterday and his DPMS would jam about every other shot, there had been 0 problems up until then. We cleaned the rifle good, applied lots of lube today, tried again and the same thing, but with brass ammo. I pulled the BCG out of my Colt and dropped into his DPMS and it ran great, even with the Tula. As I was watching him shoot I noticed with the DPMS BCG it would eject weak, but with the Colt BCG it would eject correctly. Pulled both, layed them side by side for comparison and his extractor showed a lot of wear. I'm wondering if this is the result of the Tula ammo. I know the DPMS is not top notch and is also to blame. Anyway, got online and searched out some replacement extractors and ordered two. Wanted to replace the whole bolt but that's not easy to do currently.
Need data on the extractor spring/insert setup. Sounds like a tight chamber but could be extractor configuration.
Need data on the extractor spring/insert setup. Sounds like a tight chamber but could be extractor configuration.
Stock DPMS setup. I did notice that the extractor, when compared to the Colt, was narrower, as in it did not fill up the slot as well. Also the claw was shorter and rounded. Spring pressure seemed good but I don't know much about it. There is a total of about 400 rnds of ammo through the gun, only about 200 of the tula. What else would I need to check and how? Thanks for your help.
RogerinTPA
06-03-13, 17:57
Stock DPMS setup. I did notice that the extractor, when compared to the Colt, was narrower, as in it did not fill up the slot as well. Also the claw was shorter and rounded. Spring pressure seemed good but I don't know much about it. There is a total of about 400 rnds of ammo through the gun, only about 200 of the tula. What else would I need to check and how? Thanks for your help.
You might want to check the extractor to see if the DPMS has a 4 coil spring and a black insert. If it does, replace it with a 5 coil spring with a black insert. You can get an extractor upgrade kit from bravo company. If still a no go, replace the entire extractor with a milspec one from colt or bravo company. The black donut that comes with it is not require and adds too much tension for proper extraction.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm
Littlelebowski
06-03-13, 18:20
You might want to check the extractor to see if the DPMS has a 4 coil spring and a black insert. If it does, replace it with a 5 coil spring with a black insert. You can get an extractor upgrade kit from bravo company. If still a no go, replace the entire extractor with a milspec one from colt or bravo company. The black donut that comes with it is not require and adds too much tension for proper extraction.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm
Answer above ^^^. If that doesn't work, could be a tight chamber. If your local gunsmith has one of Ned Christiansen's chamber reamers, that could fix it.
You might want to check the extractor to see if the DPMS has a 4 coil spring and a black insert. If it does, replace it with a 5 coil spring with a black insert. You can get an extractor upgrade kit from bravo company. If still a no go, replace the entire extractor with a milspec one from colt or bravo company. The black donut that comes with it is not require and adds too much tension for proper extraction.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm
Thanks for the advise. I'll take it apart and see what it has and go from there.
SeriousStudent
06-03-13, 19:29
Answer above ^^^. If that doesn't work, could be a tight chamber. If your local gunsmith has one of Ned Christiansen's chamber reamers, that could fix it.
Not to side track too badly, but is there anybody doing that through the mail that you guys know of?
I am just imagining all the AR's that have been rushed together in the last six months. I'd be stunned if they all had 5.56 chambers. We could help more folks like RickyK that want to get their carbines at 100 percent. That would be a real service.
It would likely be worthwhile for us to gather a list like that. My brain was following the same path as you guys.
If anyone has leads, just shoot them to me and I'll work with IG to put together a thread and/or sticky.
LL and Roger, thanks for helping these guys.
RogerinTPA
06-03-13, 19:40
Not to side track too badly, but is there anybody doing that through the mail that you guys know of?
I am just imagining all the AR's that have been rushed together in the last six months. I'd be stunned if they all had 5.56 chambers. We could help more folks like RickyK that want to get their carbines at 100 percent. That would be a real service.
It would likely be worthwhile for us to gather a list like that. My brain was following the same path as you guys.
If anyone has leads, just shoot them to me and I'll work with IG to put together a thread and/or sticky.
LL and Roger, thanks for helping these guys.
Agreed Bill, a Ned Christiansen's reamer is likely to be a very rare thing for a Smith to have, unless he's been around for a while and very familiar & intimate with ARs. I'd definitely call the local Smiths in the AO to see if they even heard of that device. Sadly, most people who buy them aren't in the know about commercial grade guns having 223 chambers, despite having 556 stamped on the barrel.
PA PATRIOT
06-03-13, 20:04
I'm another fan of steel cased ammo especially Wolf Lacquer coated 55gr Copper H/P's and I have put over 50K through a few different rifles. Ever time I'm at a re-cert class or advanced training I run across guys who's guns choke on Wolf, Tula or Brown Bear and have no real clue to why its occurring.
The major causes I see are,
80% Extra power spring and buffers H-2 or heavier.
15% Dirty, Dry bolt.
05% Worn Gas rings, worn Extractor or Extractor spring.
Most folks spent up to $1000.00 to attend a course and then do not check function or zero with the steel case before they attend. Then I always hear the same bitch story on how the steel case is the blame and what are they going to do to find some brass cased ammo.
I always take a few CS carbine springs, a few Carbine and "H" buffers, some extractors and extractor springs with inserts and some gas rings and if a class mate wishes to barrow a few parts for trouble shooting and if successful in correcting the issue buy the parts used for a small fee I'm glad to help out
But I always also take a 500rd case or two of PMC .223 with me and will trade a 1000rds of Steel case for 500rds of brass cased if the shooter does not want to tinker with his gun. When opportunity knocks with a newly converted steel case hater I will never pass up the chance to add rounds to the training pile.
SeriousStudent
06-03-13, 20:15
Agreed Bill, a Ned Christiansen's reamer is likely to be a very rare thing for a Smith to have, unless he's been around for a while and very familiar & intimate with ARs. I'd definitely call the local Smiths in the AO to see if they even heard of that device. Sadly, most people who buy them aren't in the know about commercial grade guns having 223 chambers, despite having 556 stamped on the barrel.
I have almost thought about buying one for the toolset, along with a MOACKS.
The problem is that I buy weapons from people like Colt, BCM and LMT, so I have not needed either tool so far. ;)
If by some miracle I get a bonus this year, I've got a long list of tools that IG and Robb posted, and I'm going to buy all of them.
I can make some calls around here in Texas.
I have almost thought about buying one for the toolset, along with a MOACKS.
The problem is that I buy weapons from people like Colt, BCM and LMT, so I have not needed either tool so far. ;)
If by some miracle I get a bonus this year, I've got a long list of tools that IG and Robb posted, and I'm going to buy all of them.
I can make some calls around here in Texas.
I have sent Ned a few bucks and have his various tools. The initial investment hurt a bit but was money very well spent in the long run. Others on the armorer lists as well. Having such things can make you incredibly popular at class. Or incredibly unpopular if people are easily butt-hurt.
It's pretty easy to recover the costs with modest suggested donations. My shop rate for buddies is pop and/or chinese food.
In the mid 1970s I once owned a Llama 380, I learned to clear every type of fail to, malfunction.
It's not about 'respect' because it's simply a tool and inexpensive ammo is a training opportunity. I have run most of my ARs (2x 6920s, 1x LMT MRP, 1 DD LW and a new DD MK18 I'm putting through it's paces) up to 5K with just lube, shooting steel ammo reliably because people who don't shoot their guns enough said it couldn't be done, won't run and will damage your gun. It was all internet BS from some ignorant people regurgitating what they read from other ignorant people. If your weapon is tuned correctly, it should be able to run just about any ammo. If it won't, then it's either a poor tool selection (commercial grade gun with a 223 chamber) or ignorance of the user's part.
Well said, saved me a lot of typing. Would never say that steel cased Russian ammo is top shelf, but it would seem to rarely be to blame for the issues mentioned. Me and a friend have done our own "Filthy 14" type test with a BCM using almost entirely Wolf/Tula and we are over 10K rounds, no cleaning whatsoever, just generous application of Slip where required. No errors whatsoever.
Heat kills barrels.
The volume of fire was a huge contributor to that test.
No one on this board is going to shoot like that.
The bi-metal bullet was not the sole factor in those barrels being shot out.
Roger beat me to it.
Just for kicks, if bi-metal bullets were a major contributor to a barrel getting "shot out", wouldn't the same theory apply to m855 as well?
I'll only shoot steel at the range I go to cuz the RSO is a brass hound.
M855 is steel cored with a copper jacket. In reference to Tula, the actual jacket is bimetal.
I'd put the heat and firing schedule well ahead of the bimetal bullets as contributing factors for wearing the barrel.
Just for kicks, if bi-metal bullets were a major contributor to a barrel getting "shot out", wouldn't the same theory apply to m855 as well?
I'll only shoot steel at the range I go to cuz the RSO is a brass hound.
So in the end shooting Tula ammo isn't a problem in a properly made gun?
So in the end shooting Tula ammo isn't a problem in a properly made gun?
My biggest problem was the buffer. Too heavy for Tula. Just fine for the 5.56mm. If I put VLTOR's H1 or H0 in it would more than likely run fine. I need to test this.
RogerinTPA
06-06-13, 19:51
Just for kicks, if bi-metal bullets were a major contributor to a barrel getting "shot out", wouldn't the same theory apply to m855 as well?
I'll only shoot steel at the range I go to cuz the RSO is a brass hound.
No, it wasn't the major factor and M855 is FMJ with a steel penetrator in the tip, which does not make contact with the barrel once fired. Please read the entire thread to gain insight into why those barrels were actually shot out.
No, it wasn't the major factor and M855 is FMJ with a steel penetrator in the tip, which does not make contact with the barrel once fired. Please read the entire thread to gain insight into why those barrels were actually shot out.
Yep, I've been following, and read the lucky gunner article. i was confused with the bi-metal aspect of the Tula. Thought it meant something similar to m855s steel core.
Socom Elite
06-06-13, 20:43
Nic Taylor has a great video on this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDZ-ABceo8
RogerinTPA
06-06-13, 21:28
Nic Taylor has a great video on this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDZ-ABceo8
The problem is that no one is discussing the type of steel that is on the case or the bullet, which has been described as being a mild steel, having almost the same density or softness as brass. Another issue with that video, is that the overwhelming majority of carbines sold have chrome lined bores, so it's not really a 'steel on steel' issue.
I hate to quote TOS, but here's the most detailed discussion I've read on russian ammo: http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=268
Nic Taylor has a great video on this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfDZ-ABceo8
While I question the steel on steel wear, especially with chrome lined barrels, I don't care if the bi-metal bullets actually wear out my barrel faster. The savings in ammo cost will easily cover a barrel and bolt replacement.
I have an older 16", 1-7, chrome lined barrel with over 20k of Wolf through it. It's not a MOA shooter but it will still make center mass shots on a IDPA target at 300 yards. I probably built at least 2 complete carbines with the ammo cost savings...;)
Socom Elite
06-06-13, 21:38
While I question the steel on steel wear, especially with chrome lined barrels, I don't care if the bi-metal bullets actually wear out my barrel faster. The savings in ammo cost will easily cover a barrel and bolt replacement.
I have an older 16", 1-7, chrome lined barrel with over 20k of Wolf through it. It's not a MOA shooter but it will still make center mass shots on a IDPA target at 300 yards. I probably built at least 2 complete carbines with the ammo cost savings...;)
Yep. Preaching to the choir. All my range ammo is Tula
I have an older 16", 1-7, chrome lined barrel with over 20k of Wolf through it. It's not a MOA shooter but it will still make center mass shots on a IDPA target at 300 yards.Just to clarify this 20k+ Wolf barrel is still grouping at 300??? (as Wolf groups)
I personally wish more people would shoot steel case ammo. It might bring the price of brass down. Law of supply and demand and all.
To to confirm. I have everything off the barrel in prep for a rail install and the gas port is indeed .076.
Tula is actually well made ammo. I disected and guaged a bunch of it not too long ago... The Funny thing is it's BETTER made than Black Hills Garbage....
But what hurts TULA is that 1. Their bullet is trash. 4 MOA no matter what you do., and 2. Steel cases will just simply never perform like a real Brass case. Extraction problems are just part of the deal for some guns with steel.
Other than Tula's horrible bullet, the ammo is straight, charges are pretty consitent, etc. I subbed SMKs and used all the other TULA components and made excellent match quality ammo.
But what hurts TULA is that 1. Their bullet is trash. 4 MOA no matter what you do.
Well that counters my receding self esteem. I was starting to think I sucked.
No doubt shooting steel cased ammo can save cash. At least it did at the time that the luckygunner.com article was published. Hopefully the savings would cover extractors, springs, etc. but there is more than that alone to take into account.
If steel cased ammo is fired at the range and brass for all other applications, does the prior use of primarily steel then increase the probability of malfunction by FTE when firing brass? That's a scenario-specific question, but worth considering.
Regardless of the savings- there is no guarantee that when my barrel finally approaches its premature end of life that I will actually be able to purchase a replacement barrel of equal quality due to supply, the geopolitical scenario, legal reasons, etc. A bird in the hand...
With all that said I shoot Tula anyways-not enough to smoke my barrel in short order but if I did decide to start down that road I would buy a few extra spare parts including a back up barrel beforehand. Point being that there is much to consider regarding ammo selection, but it isn't an obvious black & white choice by any means.
Well that counters my receding self esteem. I was starting to think I sucked.
Nope. I took the Tula bullet, seated it in regular brass with my bestest load, and it was 4 MOA.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aammo4_zps10c50532.jpg
Just to clarify this 20k+ Wolf barrel is still grouping at 300??? (as Wolf groups)
More like a shotgun pattern.:D. It will probably shoot a 30' group with Wolf at 300 but if you know the hold overs and the wind isn't too bad it can still make the hits.
Like I said this barrel is used and way past its prime...
Tula is actually well made ammo. I disected and guaged a bunch of it not too long ago... The Funny thing is it's BETTER made than Black Hills Garbage....
But what hurts TULA is that 1. Their bullet is trash. 4 MOA no matter what you do., and 2. Steel cases will just simply never perform like a real Brass case. Extraction problems are just part of the deal for some guns with steel.
Other than Tula's horrible bullet, the ammo is straight, charges are pretty consitent, etc. I subbed SMKs and used all the other TULA components and made excellent match quality ammo.
Interesting...
Ive gotten about the same results in Tula .223 chamberings out of my LMT. 4 moa vs 1 moa for hornady steel match.
Results are also pretty consistant with .308 as well. Steel match. groups around 1.5 moa in my SA58 FAL and Tula groups about 5 MOA.
Makes me wonder if you could ever get match grade accuracy out of a bi metal jacketed bullet.
While I question the steel on steel wear, especially with chrome lined barrels, I don't care if the bi-metal bullets actually wear out my barrel faster. The savings in ammo cost will easily cover a barrel and bolt replacement.
I have an older 16", 1-7, chrome lined barrel with over 20k of Wolf through it. It's not a MOA shooter but it will still make center mass shots on a IDPA target at 300 yards. I probably built at least 2 complete carbines with the ammo cost savings...;)
Thats pretty impressive.
I put 13k of mostly Russian steelcased through my LMT MRP. It was keyholing at anything past 200 yards. Just eyeballing, Id say there was at least an inch of rifling missing near the throat.
Thats pretty impressive.
I put 13k of mostly Russian steelcased through my LMT MRP. It was keyholing at anything past 200 yards. Just eyeballing, Id say there was at least an inch of rifling missing near the throat.
I too have ton of Tula/wolf through a loner upper. I have a couple Troy uppers that i use for friends that just want to plink. But I haven't noticed the rifling wearing out. I'll have to inpect closer.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
This thread made me buy a few boxes of Tula to try in my SR-15 just out of curiosity. It has a longer than mid length gas system and shoots softly. All of this internet chatter made me think it would malfunction. I put a very light coat of froglube on the cases and headed to the desert. 60 shots, no malfunctions.
Sunday morning, Herters-Tula, Colt 6720 w/ Aimpoint T1. 100yds, B8 bull. Four rounds into ~1.25", a fifth opened it to ~2.75. Going to shoot it again for 10rd groups later this week.
I personally wish more people would shoot steel case ammo. It might bring the price of brass down. Law of supply and demand and all.
This, .. plus, Does the US Military shoot steel case (5.56mm)? and if not, why not?
PA PATRIOT
06-10-13, 00:34
The below link/video on Wolf Ammo exactly mirrors my results over the last 25 cases fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpo9rknFDkU
A hair Smokey with pistol ammo on rapid fire and not to bad with the smoke/fouling on rifle calibers when compared to other cheap plinking ammo.
I mainly shoot the 100% copper 55gr H/P which is slightly more accurate (About 1/4 inch better groups at 100yds) then the other Wolf .223 offerings.
I've never had an issue with wolf. It's ran the best out if the steel case ammo I've fired. I've even fired off quite a bit brown bear and golden tiger. Never had an issue. That was with the VLTOR H3 buffer.
When I think back in the Tula, even if I wasn't experiencing problems with it not cycling in my gun. I still had 3 stuck cases I had to punch out with my cleaning rod. That is a 5.56 chamber. Daniel Defense barrel.
I do need to put a lighter buffer in and retest the Tula.
The below link/video on Wolf Ammo exactly mirrors my results over the last 25 cases fired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpo9rknFDkU
A hair Smokey with pistol ammo on rapid fire and not to bad with the smoke/fouling on rifle calibers when compared to other cheap plinking ammo.
I mainly shoot the 100% copper 55gr H/P which is slightly more accurate (About 1/4 inch better groups at 100yds) then the other Wolf .223 offerings.
This, .. plus, Does the US Military shoot steel case (5.56mm)? and if not, why not?
Because the military doesn't issue AK-47s.
Because the military doesn't issue AK-47s.
Touché .. I just meant if there was a like a "technical data package" requirement that precluded the use of steel case 5.56mm ammo for general issue to the troops. And, if steel case was evaluated and rejected for a specific reason? .. I was just curious, as I thought it might be relevant to the TULA discussion going on here.
I'd bet they'd only consider a steel case if Copper/Brass was in serious shortage.
Ammo is tight, but raw materials really aren't.
TULA?....sure, if nothing else is available....but why would anyone shoot that crap otherwise?
My theory is that if you've spent good money on a quality weapons system you should be feeding it gourmet ammo....and not dog food :blink:.....but that's just me.
The ammo isn't that bad... it's the sucky bullet they use. If they subbed an SMK it'd be no less in quality than Hornady Steel cased Match.
TULA?....sure, if nothing else is available....but why would anyone shoot that crap otherwise?
My theory is that if you've spent good money on a quality weapons system you should be feeding it gourmet ammo....and not dog food :blink:.....but that's just me.
Because some of us buy good gear and then want to learn how to use it. If I buy tula I can train more than most brass snobs.
deerndove14
06-10-13, 16:29
- Tula: not even two rounds in fails to pickup a round. Rack it. 3 rounds later. Same. The rest of the mag can only be described as single shot at best. Sometimes it wouldn't even reset the trigger, I even had one failure to extract in that same mag.
-move on to some PMC bronze. 20 round box went through flawlessly.
Huh....that's weird, the Tula cycled like a champ in mine for all of the three mags I shot, but I shot three consecutive rounds PMC Bronze, and after that, they all failed to extract. I looked at the brass after my session was finished and it turned out my extractor was ripping straight through the rim. I guess you got bad Tula and I got bad Bronze. Oh well, best of luck in your future shooting! -Dove
RogerinTPA
06-10-13, 16:50
Huh....that's weird, the Tula cycled like a champ in mine for all of the three mags I shot, but I shot three consecutive rounds PMC Bronze, and after that, they all failed to extract. I looked at the brass after my session was finished and it turned out my extractor was ripping straight through the rim. I guess you got bad Tula and I got bad Bronze. Oh well, best of luck in your future shooting! -Dove
Generally not a good idea mixing steel and brass ammo in the same session without a thorough chamber cleaning due fouling with the steel ammo.:no: I've seen and had stuck brass after shooting steel, which I suspect is your case. Brass gets stuck from steel fouling, extractor unable to pull out stuck case, then slips or rips off a portion of the rim...
PA PATRIOT
06-10-13, 17:25
Generally not a good idea mixing steel and brass ammo in the same session without a thorough chamber cleaning due fouling with the steel ammo.:no: I've seen and had stuck brass after shooting steel, which I suspect is your case. Brass gets stuck from steel fouling, extractor unable to pull out stuck case, then slips or rips off a portion of the rim...
I have seen guys shooting from mixed ammo cans of brass and steel at high round count courses and not have any issues. I myself have shot 500rds of Lacquer coated Wolf then followed up with another 500+ rounds of brass at the same course with out issue.
Now of course I had a freshly cleaned chamber before the course started and have only mixed lacquer with brass and not any of the newer generation Polly coated stuff but my two rifles I use for courses are know to have whore chambers for steel.
The ammo isn't that bad... it's the sucky bullet they use. If they subbed an SMK it'd be no less in quality than Hornady Steel cased Match.
Mark I always thought Hornady used nickel plated brass and it just looked like steel.
Mark I always thought Hornady used nickel plated brass and it just looked like steel.
Nah, it's steel.
http://youtu.be/21iqJ3GA9bs
:)
RogerinTPA
06-10-13, 20:38
This, .. plus, Does the US Military shoot steel case (5.56mm)? and if not, why not?
Here's a good read on evaluations on steel case ammo tested at Ft Benning in the 60's. There is also a full report on the 'product improvement test on steel cartridges, on a 'click on' link on that page.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0869282
Littlelebowski
06-10-13, 20:57
Because some of us buy good gear and then want to learn how to use it. If I buy tula I can train more than most brass snobs.
Well said. Been doing this for years.
SilverBullet432
06-10-13, 23:06
TulAmmo can be tricky stuff for AR's so ive heard, but my SKS gobbles it up like no other!!! (yes i know why lol) ive ran thousands of lil black box tulammo rounds through my SKS and only had a few errors. (my fault) its good stuff for ak's and sks, heck even mosins!! ( i run that through mine with no stuck bolt issues) but i guess AR's love brass ammo!
I really wish this wouldn't turn into another BRASS VS STEEL debate.
I have a lighter buffer on the way. I'll see if this will make the difference with Tula.
theblackknight
06-11-13, 00:58
Send me all your unwanted Tula please
Here's a good read on evaluations on steel case ammo tested at Ft Benning in the 60's. There is also a full report on the 'product improvement test on steel cartridges, on a 'click on' link on that page.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0869282
Thanks Roger! That's the info I was interested in. There's a PDF link in there that looks like it goes into greater detail about testing and evaluations, etc. .. I don't have time to read the whole PDF file right now but that looks interesting. Thank you!
PDF Link
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0869282
Nah, it's steel.
http://youtu.be/21iqJ3GA9bs
:)
Hornady does have nickel plated brass too. But that's different than their Steel Match line of ammo.
Commie ammo, for commie guns.
There's a reason this truism exists...
Exactly...
We kicked their ass in the cold war and now they are paying us back with cheap ass comblock ammunition...
Exactly...
We kicked their ass in the cold war and now they are paying us back with cheap ass comblock ammunition...
I heard today that they unanimously voted to ban "gayness" over there. So guess what else they're gonna flood the US with??
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I heard today that they unanimously voted to ban "gayness" over there.
That would start a RIOT in our GD. :p
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