38 Super Questions

[opngrnd]

Hello All,
I have a few questions revolving around the 38 super.
I want to maximize the performance of a new-to-me gun/cartridge combo. I’m not looking to go crazy on velocity as I’ll be shooting it in competitions where power factor is irrelevant(at least at first), though I’d be interested in what it means to make "minor". If you have any comments on related matters, feel free to pitch in.
Here are my starting points for reference:
Bullets: Hornady 115 XTP, 125 HAP, 147 XTP
I have quite a few of the 115 grain XTP’s from buying Hornady components.
Primers: Winchester Small Pistol
Brass: Once fired Winchester factory brass(by me) and standard Starline brass
Powder: HS-6 and maybe Titegroup

The gun is a new Colt Series 80 Government Model in 38 Super I had Wilson Combat do some upgrades to. Sights, trigger, magwell, beavertail grip safety, etc. Barrel and springs are stock. I’m mostly looking to enjoy this gun for what it is. I’m won’t be uncontent sticking to the Hornady manual if need be, but if anyone has found sweet spots for this gun/cartridge combo I’d appreciate it. When shooting my Government Model in 45acp I generally reload 230 bullets to about 825 fps.
My questions are:
What has worked well for you?
At what point do you have to look at using rifle primers?
Does anyone have a pet load that wouldn’t require turning the gun into a competition only gun?
Thanks in advance.

[tappedandtagged]

Rifle primers in a handgun only come into play on the huge capacity ultra super magnum rounds like the 454 Casull and 500 S&W. For a 38 super, please don't.

Minor power factor needs to fall between 125 to 164. Major is anything over 165. The formula for it is PF= muzzle velocity X bullet weight all divided by 1000. For example your 45 ACP load would be
230 X 825 / 1000 = 189.75. So your 45 load would be considered major power factor.

For Minor Power Factor in your 38 super, you need to have your load going 1087 fps with a 115 grain pill. (125X1000/115=1087, or PF X 1000 / bullet weight = velocity).

As to loads, sorry, I don't have a super.

[opngrnd]

Thanks for the info. That math seems pretty simple and easy to use. I imagined minor to be harder to get to and major to be WAYYY up there.

[jstone]

Using rifle primer in pistol loads if fine as long as you are using small rifle primers for pistol there is no problem. You cannot substitute large rifle for pistol.

I have been using small rifle primers in pistol loads for years as have many. The cartridges that tagged said you can switch pistol primers for rifle is wrong. You can not substitute large rifle for large pistol they are a different size. Small pistol primers are the same size as small rifle.

Op you will be fine using small rifle primers in 38 super.

[opngrnd]

Is there a minimum on how hot the load has to be when using rifle primers? We're talking full power loads, right?

[jstone]

I have loads that are right at max and some very light loads. I use srp for 9mm, 40s&w, 38spcl, and small primer pocket 45acp.

I have been using cci400s for pistol for at least the past 7 years. anybody that says you cant use small rifle sprimers in exchange for small pistol have not done there research.

Using srp in pistol loads meens one less type of primer I need to stock.

[williejc]

The guys writing reloading manuals developed handgun data using pistol primers. So, the man using rifle primers to reload handgun calibers has stepped into a gray area. Why do it if pistol primers are available?

[jstone]

There is no grey area about it. You do not always use the same components as the load manual. Interchanging a rifle primer is no different than using a differen spp. By your logic it would a grey are using another spp because the data did not use said primer.

Try google and look at how many people do it. I have seen no difference between a load with a srp or an spp. I still have some spp but I prefer the 400s.

If there was a problem interchanging them they probably would not be the exact same size. They made large rifle and pistol primers a different size.

[JimmyB62]

FYI only, the Vihta manual has loads which specifically call for SRP in handgun loads (the 357mag is one I use).

[Alaskapopo]

Rifle primers in a handgun only come into play on the huge capacity ultra super magnum rounds like the 454 Casull and 500 S&W. For a 38 super, please don't.

Minor power factor needs to fall between 125 to 164. Major is anything over 165. The formula for it is PF= muzzle velocity X bullet weight all divided by 1000. For example your 45 ACP load would be
230 X 825 / 1000 = 189.75. So your 45 load would be considered major power factor.

For Minor Power Factor in your 38 super, you need to have your load going 1087 fps with a 115 grain pill. (125X1000/115=1087, or PF X 1000 / bullet weight = velocity).

As to loads, sorry, I don't have a super.

Sorry but your sentiment is incorrect. If your shooting major power factor ammo in USPSA in a 38 super you will be running very high pressures and you are better off with Rifle primers. Its not just me who thinks and does this its the majority of competitors shooting open in USPSA. My major load for the 38 Super comp is 8.1 grains of 4756 under a 124 grain Montana Gold JHP. That is giving me 1380 fps which is a 171 power factor. Now I don't recommend this load in any barrel that is not supported in the case area. But 4756 is a good powder for this cartridge. If you want to learn more about loading the 38 super, super comp, 9x23 etc. go here.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=72

In fact you can run rifle primers in 9mm at standard level loads just back your charge down a bit. What you can't do is use pistol primers in a rifle.
Pat

[MrSmitty]

All of the reading I've done suggests that SRPs generally have a slightly thicker cup than SPPs so I don't really see how it could ever be a problem unless you are getting light strikes.

Don't quote me on it but I remember seeing somewhere that CCI SRPs are the exact same product as the their magnum SPPs...

[markm]

All of the reading I've done suggests that SRPs generally have a slightly thicker cup than SPPs so I don't really see how it could ever be a problem unless you are getting light strikes.


That's the only downside. Rifle and Small rifle Magnum primers work in pistol, but I have had light strikes from the thicker cups.

[Wildcat]

All of the reading I've done suggests that SRPs generally have a slightly thicker cup than SPPs so I don't really see how it could ever be a problem unless you are getting light strikes.


The other problem you may get using rifle primers in pistol loads would occur when the rifle primers are used with too soft a load. If the pressure in the case during firing is not high enough to expand the primer cup, you can get gas leaking at the joint between the wall of the primer pocket and the outside of the primer cup. Soot will show up at the circumference of the primer if that is occurring.

Also, if you tend to use the appearance of a spent primer to judge whether your loads are getting more than 'warm' (people do it), rifle primers will fool you.

[MrSmitty]

The other problem you may get using rifle primers in pistol loads would occur when the rifle primers are used with too soft a load. If the pressure in the case during firing is not high enough to expand the primer cup, you can get gas leaking at the joint between the wall of the primer pocket and the outside of the primer cup. Soot will show up at the circumference of the primer if that is occurring.

^ Didn't even cross my mind, good point. I came across a bunch of CCI 400s a while back and bought them to use as SPPs when I couldn't find any. Federal 100s surfaced shortly after that so I never got around to loading the 400s but I will probably just hold onto them in case there is a shortage in SR or SP again...

[Hydguy]

If you want to know how your loads are working, and the PF, get a decent chronograph. It will give you all the info you need.

[SteveS]

While I do not have a 38 super I shoot with guys/gals who are hard core into race gun shooting they all use small rifle primers. I have used rifle primers in 9mm, 40 S@W and 38 specials with great success, my pistols / revolvers are bone stock. The firing pin dimple isn't as deep as compared to small pistol primers in the pistols I have used them in. Load up a few cases with primers only and using all safety rules fire them to see if the pistol will fire the primers . None of my pistols will fire off the CCI military small rifle primers . Winchester and Federal 205 worked for me. I just finished shooting a lot of 300 38 special loads with Missouri 158 GN SWC 3.9 gn of 231 on many time fired brass and all was good. If you are running near max loads and as usual drop a few grains on the powder and work up.

[zaphar]

Hello All,
I have a few questions revolving around the 38 super.
I want to maximize the performance of a new-to-me gun/cartridge combo. I’m not looking to go crazy on velocity as I’ll be shooting it in competitions where power factor is irrelevant(at least at first), though I’d be interested in what it means to make "minor". If you have any comments on related matters, feel free to pitch in.

This (http://www.38super.net/) website has pretty much all you need to know about the 38 Super other than loading information, for that use this (http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl38sup.pdf) PDF.
Only use the loadings with "MINOR" listed on the right side, the others are MAJOR loadings that can cause case failure similar to that witnessed in some 40S&W Glocks that lack full case support. This (http://www.38super.net/Pages/Major.html) page describes in detail about issue of case support with some 1911s.


Here are my starting points for reference:
Bullets: Hornady 115 XTP, 125 HAP, 147 XTP
I have quite a few of the 115 grain XTP’s from buying Hornady components.
Primers: Winchester Small Pistol
Brass: Once fired Winchester factory brass(by me) and standard Starline brass
Powder: HS-6 and maybe Titegroup

The gun is a new Colt Series 80 Government Model in 38 Super I had Wilson Combat do some upgrades to. Sights, trigger, magwell, beavertail grip safety, etc. Barrel and springs are stock. I’m mostly looking to enjoy this gun for what it is. I’m won’t be uncontent sticking to the Hornady manual if need be, but if anyone has found sweet spots for this gun/cartridge combo I’d appreciate it. When shooting my Government Model in 45acp I generally reload 230 bullets to about 825 fps.
My questions are:
What has worked well for you?
At what point do you have to look at using rifle primers?
Does anyone have a pet load that wouldn’t require turning the gun into a competition only gun?
Thanks in advance.
You shouldn't have to use rifle primers. Competitors with pistols chambered in 38 Super used them when the Major power factor was higher. Current Major power factor ([Bullet weight x Velocity] divided by 1000) is 165, it used to be 175 so some competitors would use rifle primers to prevent pierced/blown primers. Competitors load their ammunition slightly hotter than the Major power factor to account for variance so most ammo (at the old power factor) would actually be around 180. A 115gr bullet traveling at 1566fps would meet this power factor and would most likely cause flat primers and a blowout in an unsupported barrel.

With regular CCI small pistol primers, I've developed a loading using HS-6 and 115gr JHPs that travels at 1500fps from a 4.5" barrel (with fully supported chamber). The primers on these look normal but if I remember correctly, they started to go flat around mid to upper 1500's.

Recently, I've been using a 158gr PHP bullet, but I'm still working that one up, currently at 1050-1075fps.

[Alaskapopo]

This (http://www.38super.net/) website has pretty much all you need to know about the 38 Super other than loading information, for that use this (http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl38sup.pdf) PDF.
Only use the loadings with "MINOR" listed on the right side, the others are MAJOR loadings that can cause case failure similar to that witnessed in some 40S&W Glocks that lack full case support. This (http://www.38super.net/Pages/Major.html) page describes in detail about issue of case support with some 1911s.

You shouldn't have to use rifle primers. Competitors with pistols chambered in 38 Super used them when the Major power factor was higher. Current Major power factor ([Bullet weight x Velocity] divided by 1000) is 165, it used to be 175 so some competitors would use rifle primers to prevent pierced/blown primers. Competitors load their ammunition slightly hotter than the Major power factor to account for variance so most ammo (at the old power factor) would actually be around 180. A 115gr bullet traveling at 1566fps would meet this power factor and would most likely cause flat primers and a blowout in an unsupported barrel.

With regular CCI small pistol primers, I've developed a loading using HS-6 and 115gr JHPs that travels at 1500fps from a 4.5" barrel (with fully supported chamber). The primers on these look normal but if I remember correctly, they started to go flat around mid to upper 1500's.

Recently, I've been using a 158gr PHP bullet, but I'm still working that one up, currently at 1050-1075fps.
Even at 165 power factor there is a lot of pressure and most of us want 170 for a cushion rifle primers handle the pressure better.

[opngrnd]

I appreciate all the responses concerning the ammunition, but how hot should ammo be that's set up for a standard 5" Colt 38 Super be? What differences are there going to be when going from fast lightweight bullets and mid-velocity heavier ones?

[zaphar]

The lightweight bullets such as 115gr will have a fast impulse and thus have a "snap" to them. Heavier bullets on the other hand will spread the impulse over a longer time period and mat feel more controllable. In USPSA Open competition pistols, where 38 Super is popular, compensators are the norm and you will see bullets weights in 115-125gr used to allow for enough gas to be generated to counter muzzle rise.

In non-compensated pistols, heavier bullets may be more comfortable to shoot. For "a standard 5" Colt 38 Super" you should be fine if you stick to the reloading manuals, just pay close attention to the web area of the cases and look for any bulging. http://38super.net/Pages/Brass.html This page shows what to look for.

[NWcityguy2]

While I agree with what has been said about substituting pistol primers for rifle primers, in that it isn't a problem, I don't think it there is a need to switch away from SPPs either. I personally don't think it is a good idea to run major PF loads through a Colt 1911 and a stock Colt 1911 is ridiculously uncompetitive in USPSA Open Major anyway. I can't think of a single good reason to venture above published load data in that gun. Paper won't care, steel won't care and there is no real world benefit either.

Stay within Hodgdon's load data and if you want to shoot competitions shoot USPSA Single Stack Minor and IDPA ESP. For a pet load see what works in your gun. Both powders you mentioned will work well but no one can honestly tell you what will be most accurate in your gun or even what the exact PF will be either.

[opngrnd]

As of now, I'll be loading the 115 grain XTP bullets I have up to several different charges from the Hornady manual and the Hodgdon website and see what one feels and shoots the best. Then I'll repeat the process with a few other bullet weights and see what combination runs the smoothest and most accurately. It's been neat learning about the cartridge.

I'm not chasing velocity here, and I have no desire to beat the pistol up by running at extreme pressures. Just looking for what the pistol likes best. The 15 yard target that came back with the pistol when Wilson Combat tuned it had a 5 shot "cloverleaf" for a shot group of about 1.25", so I figure I'll have a smooth, accurate shooting gun by the time I'm done tinkering with the ammo. All I did for accuracy was have a barrel bushing fit.

As far as the difference it'll make in competition, practically none. The shoots/competitions I have available to me don't measure power factors, and the competition isn't so stacked that having a slightly better pistol than the guy next to you will get you the best time in the group. Usually the guy who executes the fundamentals the cleanest shoots the best. I've won using nigh stock plastic pistols before against race guns in the hands of guys who weren't on the same level as their equipment, and lost embarrasingly when I tried to shoot faster than I can shoot accurately enough to make hits.

I've shot a handful of thousands of rounds (maybe 5,000) through 45 cal 5 inch 1911s, and this is just supposed to be a neat alternative in caliber while still being a nicely set up 1911. I like the pistol because it's a 1911, and I like the caliber because it's a nice caliber, and a fun alternative to 45 in a 1911.

I should get to loading for it and testing it out in the early spring, and if anything particularly pleasing comes from it I'll be sure to share. :)