What is currently the best .38+P load for self defense?

[blackscot]

I ask myself that every year at about this time, as the weather starts warming up, and for my daily carry I find myself more and more using this.....

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/P1010020.jpg

......a S&W 640 Centennial with Barami hip-grip/Tyler T-grip combo, which rides mexican style under a loose t-shirt tail.

It's chambered for .357, but I never carry or shoot anything in it greater than .38+P. Most of the extra charge of the magnum will be wasted by the short barrel, burning off as a large flash ball that does not contribute to bullet velocity (but certainly does to difficulty of shooting).

Based on the literature I followed over the years, I've always fueled the little wheelie with one of the lead semi-wadcutter hollow points offered by Winchester or Remington.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/bullet_lhp.jpg

I know a lot of advances have more recently been made in some handgun calibers for self defense though. For example, HydraShok for many years ruled the 9mm arena, but Gold Dot now seems the favorite of many (which is what I now carry during the cooler months in my Glock 19).

With the prospect of the Centennial soon being in full-time service, have there been any improvements in self-defense ammo for the .38+P ???

[John_Wayne777]

The LSWCHP round commonly known as the "FBI load" turns out to work in longer barreled revolvers...not so much in the small J Frames.

For the J frame revolvers the current recommendation is the Speer Gold Dot, 135 grain +P round. It was tailor made for the small S&W J frames with 2 inch or less barrels. It offers acceptable penetration and reliable expansion, though according to DocGKR it doesn't do as well through intermediate barriers...but that shouldn't be too much of a concern.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The CCI/Speer 135 grain (not the 125) Gold Dot HP load was specifically engineered by Speer for NYCPD to perform at modern terminal ballistics standards in 2" revolvers. It's been in service for some few years and appears to be pretty good. NYC still has quite a few full sized service revolvers in use and even more 2" backup and off duty guns. I believe that LAPD has also adopted this load for the .38 revolvers they still have in use.

Having said that, there's a TON of history with the "FBI load", a +P 158 grain lead hollow point in the .38 Special and graveyards full of bad guys done in with that load. I've found that the Remington version seems to expand better from short barrels due to being softer (less antimony). It also has a semi-hollow base that the others don't, which leads to a better bullet/bore seal resulting in higher velocities and less bore leading than the harder Winchester and Federal versions.

Either should work well if you do your job of placing them in the correct location.

[blackscot]

Soooo.....looks like it's Gold Dot all-around then, for both the summer snubbie as well as the winter tupperware.

Shall obtain some on way home tonight -- thanks guys. :)

[tjcoker]

The Speer 135gr +P is supposed to be a good round. As an above poster said, it's what my Department issues (LASD).

[Frank Castle]

It is essentially the only "+P" round that delivers sufficient expansion in short barreled revolvers. I think you would do better to consider standard pressure rounds. Doc Roberts has noted adequate performance from full wadcutters. The great thing is not only do they perform well, but they are low recoil and really cheap. Enough so that you don't mind going to the range and shooting a full box thru your revolver. I can't say the same for the +P loads. By the way, there is a new? company, Buffalo Bore, that offers a new line of ammunition for short barreled revolvers that have gotten some good reviews. I have not yet tried them though so I am unable to give an opinion.

[RyanB]

I would use the .357 Speer short barrel load in a 640. 135 at 990.

[Alpha Sierra]

Stephen A. Camp has done some good velocity testing of the various 158 +P LSWCHP out there. Highpowers and Handguns FBI load tests (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%20Special%20158gr%20LSWCHP.htm)

Here's his chrono data for Remington's version of the FBI load:


For those interested, here are some average 10-shot velocities for this Remington round:

S&W Model 642 with 1 7/8" bbl: 800 ft/sec

S&W Model 19 with 2 1/2" bbl: 860 ft/sec

S&W Model 64 with 3" bbl: 883 ft/sec

Ruger GP100 with 3" bbl: 894 ft/sec

Ruger SP101 with 3 1/16" bbl: 906 ft/sec

S&W Model 10 with 4" bbl: 888 ft/sec

Given those velocities and the fact the FBI load is simply prove, as Wayne Dobbs says, with lots of bodies underground; that or its Buffalo Bore equivalent is what I carry in both my 65 and my 637. I've gone away from 357 Magnum as a carry round due to overpenetration risk and slower follow ups.

[blackscot]

.....you would do better to consider standard pressure rounds......they are low recoil......

I can vouch for that. Even though this gun is all stainless, +P loads grind me down pretty quickly.


I would use the .357 Speer short barrel load in a 640. 135 at 990.

I seem to recall a year or two ago seeing something about new loads specially developed for snubbies and pocket autos (kinda what prompted me to make this post). I'll look into this .357 versus the +P.38's available.

[Fail-Safe]

Some "snub artists" use a 148gr Wadcutter in the cylinder and the 135gr+P Speer GDSB as the reload(s). Seems reasonable.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Dr Roberts has mentioned this as well.

[cathellsk]

Some "snub artists" use a 148gr Wadcutter in the cylinder and the 135gr+P Speer GDSB as the reload(s). Seems reasonable.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Dr Roberts has mentioned this as well.

You are correct. He says that using the wadcutters you get lower recoil, decent terminal ballistics, and people wanting to shoot more (practice) due to the round being less harsh to shoot out of alloy frames. The NYPD load is carried as the reload since its bullet shape is easier to facilitate reloads over the blunt tip of the wadcutter.

My only problem with this is finding decent factory wadcutters anymore, especially low cost. That seems to be a thing of the past anymore. A local store just recently got some of the Remington version in stock for about $18 a box. Not exactly cheap but its even higher online from what I've seen.

[RyanB]

Am I not recoil sensitive? 135 +Ps from a 642 and 110gr .357s from a 640 don't bother me.

Seriously, in a fight you aren't going to notice recoil. Shot recovery might matter but I don't notice much of a difference between 158gr wadcutters I shoot in bulk and 135gr carry ammo.

[Gunfighter13]

Some "snub artists" use a 148gr Wadcutter in the cylinder and the 135gr+P Speer GDSB as the reload(s). Seems reasonable.

I carry S&B 148 Wad Cutters in my bug. My reloads are 125+P gold dots. Seems to work for me.

[HolyRoller]

Am I not recoil sensitive? 135 +Ps from a 642 and 110gr .357s from a 640 don't bother me.

They bother some! I've seen a woman at a public range fire a .38 snub for the first time and actually drop it in fright. With my old 442 and non-padde grips, I couldn't stand to live fire more than a few cylinders a year, it hurt so much. The right grips make all the difference in the world My 637 came with the low-profile grips that I associated with pain, but also with a Hogue Monogrip. I put that one on and I associate it with fun and painless shooting. They also conceal well in a pocket, which I didn't believe until I tried.


Seriously, in a fight you aren't going to notice recoil.

But in practice you will. Pretty soon you won't want to live-fire at all, if you're allergic to pain like me.

As to the original question, I carry Cor-Bon DPX 110gr all-copper HP, which is not +P even though the brass is so marked, and according to published gunrag tests will chrono over 1000fps from a snub. The fired brass either falls or ejects easily out of even a dirty cylinder, and the projectiles are long and pointy and easy to reload even with a Slow Strip, I mean Speed Strip, which is the only practical way for me to carry accessible spare ammo for my BUG. I would defer to Dr. Gary and keep wadcutters in the cylinder, but under stupid NC LE firearms qual rules you can qualify with only one service load and must use only that load until you requal with another load.

[Dave Williams]

We had Cor-Bon in for an ammo test at my dept. The .38 DPX is now the carry load of everyone who carries a .38 that I know. It expanded to over .60" and went over 12" through 4 layers of denim from my 442. DPX in every caliber wowed everyone in attendance.

Dave Williams

[blackscot]

Thanks for all the good info everybody. :)

My local retailer was yesterday out of the +P Gold Dot in 135 grain, although they did have the 125 along with some non +P. Maybe I'll stop back in today and see whether they have any of that Cor Bon DPX.

I want to settle onto something ammo-wise soon, to start getting in some practice with the Centennial before I switch-over to carrying it full-time for the summer.

[Ray T]

I use my S&W 640 as a back up gun and use to load it with Federal or Remington 125 gr JHP. Now, I use either the Buffalo Bore 125 gr full power Magnum load, or the Double Tap 125 gr Gold Dots. The recoil does not bother me.

For .38 Special +P loads - I like the Buffalo Bore Heavy 158 gr LHP +Ps.

My 8 year old son can handle the 640 with Winchester 110 gr JHP Magnum loads.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb68/BrokenArrow13/Digipics07-07Sayuri003.jpg

[HolyRoller]

Oooops ... did I mention the problem with Cor-Bon DPX? It's about $1.75 per round, WHEN you can find it. Midway and Dakota Ammo (the real makers of Cor-Bon) usually have some on hand but Dakota as I recall shipped theirs signature-only to me last year and I wasn't around to sign. That was the day before I needed it of course. I literally had to make a 100-mile round trip to get it from the FedEx center. Other than that, good experience from Dakota/Cor-Bon. I even scored 100% in qual with DPX in both my stock Beretta 92F and Smith 637, better than what I did with my 1911 TRP. Flash seemed very low at night too.

[ST911]

Midway and Dakota Ammo (the real makers of Cor-Bon)

Dakota Ammo = Coporate Entity
Corbon = DBA / Brand

[Erick Gelhaus]

Some "snub artists" use a 148gr Wadcutter in the cylinder

That's how my BUG is loaded on duty. Based on Gary's insights, testing, etc.

[RWK]

When I carried a 642, I loaded it with the Speer 135-gr. +P's. When I changed to an M&P 340, I initially loaded it with the Speer's. I've since changed to the Hornady 158-gr. XTP's. The Speer's were very uncomfortable to shoot more than a few cylinders of.

[Daveo]

I run the Speer short barrel load in my M&P 340. It was that or the Buffalo Bore load and I couldn't find that locally.