View Full Version : M&P 45 vs HK45
its almost a toss up for me. have not shot either (yet) but they both feel good in the hand. is the HK45 worth the extra loot? been trying to find one with the LEM trigger and real ns but that is proving hard to achieve. apparantly rumour is that both exist but id like to have something ordered by next week. thoughts? feelings?
MikeCLeonard
04-04-08, 00:37
This is how I see it. Both have great reviews, both have great ergonomics and can be customized for grip size, and both are about the same size.
I would side with the Hk for two reasons.
1. Because I know they have been making some of the highest quality handguns for a long time and have proven themselves...while Smith & Wesson is just now getting their act together IMO.
2. Because when I go to the range and to gun shows, I see nothing but Glocks, M&P's, and Springfield XD's...Those are all fantastic guns, but they just seem to get played out for me and I like having something a little more rare.
Just small reasons but that is why I would chose the Hk...oh yeah, I just think the Hk looks cooler too :D
i agree with all points of your assessment. i am antsy to get something though and like i mentioned, trying to find this hk w the LEM trigger is proving quite difficult. i think my brain is telling me to be patient but my trigger finger is mighty itchy...not sure if the MP will give me the warm fuzzy feeling but hoping someone will make a good case
Personally, I wouldn't let what other people have influence me away from a gun. It doesn't matter to me whether my gun is common or rare, as long as it works. And the reality is that a more common gun means easier access to spare parts, accessories, etc. as well as a wider variety of holsters and aftermarket goodies.
You can't really learn much about a gun by holding it at a shop or show. You've got to shoot it. Find a rental range or some buddies with the guns you want to try and give each one of them a test drive.
Personally, I wouldn't let what other people have influence me away from a gun. It doesn't matter to me whether my gun is common or rare, as long as it works.
Efficient statement of a position that every knowledgable and competent gun owner and shooter should take....
Even though we ragged on Glock 22's and 40 cal Glocks in general. If I shoot with someone who knows what they are doing, and says they have 10,000 trouble-free rounds through their pistol, who am I to say they should change???
Who is anyone, really? What works; works! If it sucks, punt the thing in the gutter and move on.
The M&P45 I own has very low rounds, as I shoot 1911's and my suppressed 9mm's way more...
I have one firing line session of 20rds on an HK45, and it's a pretty damn nice pistol. I'm pursuing one, but I really am waiting for the v9 to come out so it will mimic my 1911's - cocked and locked.
cassiday - I believe you posted in another thread that you own a M&P9c, correct? If that is the case I'd opt for the M&P45 for familiarity reasons. That's it, that's the only answer I have for you but in my case that would be enough for me to choose the M&P45 over the HK45 if I was looking for a 45 ACP.
BushmasterFanBoy
04-04-08, 08:07
First off if you purchase an HK45 now, you can easily have it changed to LEM later. All you need to do is contact HK customer service and speak to them about getting it changed over to LEM, or any other variant you would like. Ask to speak to Travis (He is their head armorer) and he will explain the details.
Secondly, no one here can tell you which gun is "Better". That's a really subjective and personal decision. Personally for me, I shoot the HK45 better than I do the M&P series. Both seem to have great track records as far as durability is concerned. The M&P has had some issues in the past, but current revisions have made these non-existent. No problems are being reported with the HK45 as of yet, (other than a poor finish on the slide release).
I would encourage you to try both out at a range. See which one you shoot like.
Gutshot John
04-04-08, 08:24
cassiday - I believe you posted in another thread that you own a M&P9c, correct? If that is the case I'd opt for the M&P45 for familiarity reasons. That's it, that's the only answer I have for you but in my case that would be enough for me to choose the M&P45 over the HK45 if I was looking for a 45 ACP.
That's a pretty compelling argument and I'm going to have to agree with it. Besides the money you save is worth at least two days of classes with a top-flight shooting instructor.
From my personal experience though I've not shot the new HK45, I've owned a USP .45 Tactical. I honestly disliked the HK and sold it almost immediately. I'm not a big fan of double-stack .45 but IMO the Tactical shot like a brick. It was perfectly accurate, but otherwise not very shootable. HK engineers tried to engineer a Porsche...and they got a Panzer.
I fondled the new 45 at SHOT this year and I'm not sure I felt much of an improvement though subsequent experience might change that. The slide definitely seems less "over-engineered" and the grip is more comfortable. For the price however it seems hard to justify with such a good quality alternative that's half as much.
If however you really liked the USP, then don't listen to a word I said.
Just my $.02
Larry Vickers
04-04-08, 09:11
I own and like both guns - I think for the $$ the M&P is hard to beat but knowing how the HK45 has been built and tested there is no doubt it is the most bomb proof hard use .45 on the market now - if I wanted to buy a .45 pistol and be as confident as is possible in our man made world that the gun will go bang when I pull the trigger - regardless of the circumstances - I would buy the HK45
My recommendation would be to try and find one of those indoor ranges that has rental guns and try both if possible - but in the end I think you will be fine with either one
they are, in many ways, the modern replacement to the 1911 that has been touted for so long by so many other designs
be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Both pistols have their pluses and minuses. I like both too. I have owned several HK pistols (USP 45, Makr 23, USP 40) and used them a lot. They never let me down. The M&P, I feel is a good design. Simple and it is easy to get spare parts.
The M&Ps that I have worked on, yielded great results. Also, on the HK pistols.
I figure, if your pistol goes down for any reason, just use your back gun and continue the fight. :D
And the reality is that a more common gun means easier access to spare parts, accessories, etc. as well as a wider variety of holsters and aftermarket goodies.
This is absolutely my attitude on any pistol or rifle platform. I always try to stay on the beaten path.
Getting looks at the range for having something unique never enters the equation for me.
HK45 come standard in DA/SA only. LEM refit is available through HK.
RogerinTPA
04-04-08, 22:46
Both seem to have great track records as far as durability is concerned. The M&P has had some issues in the past, but current revisions have made these non-existent. No problems are being reported with the HK45 as of yet, (other than a poor finish on the slide release).
I would encourage you to try both out at a range. See which one you shoot like.
Well, I don't know if they have fixed the "broken striker" problems in current productions, but at one point there was a rash of them. I broke mine on my M&P45 dry firing back in Feb, but they did do a repair with a 2 week turn around. The trigger seems very smooth after the repair and use snap caps from that lessoned learned. The weapon has been flawless since. To their credit, they are aware of the problem.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-04-08, 22:48
I have really enjoyed shooting my HK45. It is a fine shooting pistol. I have nothing against the M&P, but I just feel that the HK45, as a refinement of the long serving USP, is a more developed and theoretically trustworthy pistol. Add to that the input of Vickers, Hackathorn and HK, and you have something I am comfortable with.
Frankly, neither gun is as shooter friendly as a 1911, but both are obviously less picky in all other respects. Given that the only reason I can see to own a .45 that isn't a 1911 is to get something more trustworthy, I see the HK45 as the natural choice for the reason Mr. Vickers cited above: "bombproof."
I own and like both guns - I think for the $$ the M&P is hard to beat but knowing how the HK45 has been built and tested there is no doubt it is the most bomb proof hard use .45 on the market now - if I wanted to buy a .45 pistol and be as confident as is possible in our man made world that the gun will go bang when I pull the trigger - regardless of the circumstances - I would buy the HK45
My recommendation would be to try and find one of those indoor ranges that has rental guns and try both if possible - but in the end I think you will be fine with either one
they are, in many ways, the modern replacement to the 1911 that has been touted for so long by so many other designs
be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
This is a question that I was asking myself since I handled (but didn't shoot) the HK45 at the latest gun show.
When an industry pro chimes in on a thread, with the immense wealth of knowledge and experience that Mr. Vickers has, especially when he's used both these pistols, I shut the **** up and listen. Thank you Mr. Vickers for your valuable input.:cool: and helping me to make up my mind.
I own both, and I'm gonna have to say the HK45, hands down. Don't get me wrong, I love my M&P45, but the HK is just nice to shoot. It feels good in my hands, the choice of back straps is a good choice and the other features that were put in were a great addition/change. In the end you can't go wrong with either! :)
Big_A, any more specifics on why you prefer the HK45? Is it more a subjective thing or objective in terms of accuracy, measured speed, some functionality?
These two pistols seem to be the current cool kids on the block, and I'd have to guess that quite a few people would benefit from your experience shooting the two side by side.
Big_A, any more specifics on why you prefer the HK45? Is it more a subjective thing or objective in terms of accuracy, measured speed, some functionality?
These two pistols seem to be the current cool kids on the block, and I'd have to guess that quite a few people would benefit from your experience shooting the two side by side.
I have both pistols. For me personally, I shoot both well. I really like them both but find I carry the MP 45 more due to size, and I have had it longer. I even made my own kydex holsters for them. I wish that HK had engineered a shorter grip to reduce overall height. The subtle finger grooves are nicer than I thought they would be and help me in controlling the pistol. Here are some pics.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00261-1.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00248.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00317.jpg
And the reality is that a more common gun means easier access to spare parts, accessories, etc. as well as a wider variety of holsters and aftermarket goodies.
So very true. To lessons learned the hard way:D
I have both pistols. For me personally, I shoot both well. I really like them both but find I carry the MP 45 more due to size, and I have had it longer. I even made my own kydex holsters for them. I wish that HK had engineered a shorter grip to reduce overall height. The subtle finger grooves are nicer than I thought they would be and help me in controlling the pistol. Here are some pics.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00261-1.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00248.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00317.jpg
If you made those holsters, I have some business for you...they look nice
M4guru, I have been making kydex holsters for about 2 months. I wanted an Alessi CQC/S type holster for my guns but they weren't available or nobody had the mold guns yet. It has been rewarding to make a functional rig that I think looks pretty good. Kydex will never look as good as leather but I have been using kydex in a .060 and a .080 thickness and they work good. Shoot me an e-mail and we can discuss specifics. I hand make each one so they vary a little from piece to piece but I have gotten pretty good at production. After you have done it for a while you begin to come up with jigs and techniques that help with consistency and quality. Here is a belt slide I did for my dad so he could carry his Glock 26 and Glock 34 in the same holster.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm193/jkgreen01hotmail/DSC00225.jpg
Big_A, any more specifics on why you prefer the HK45? Is it more a subjective thing or objective in terms of accuracy, measured speed, some functionality?
These two pistols seem to be the current cool kids on the block, and I'd have to guess that quite a few people would benefit from your experience shooting the two side by side.
For me, it was accuracy, speed, functionality, and versatility (cocked/locked). The fact that you can change varriants is also a plus. The pistol itself is very user friendly and ambidextrous, I can use my thumb or index finger to release the mag. It was very fast with pairs, and quick follow up rapid shots. I used mostly 230gr. from various manufactures. Our duty round is 230gr. Speer gold dot for .45, and it ate every thing I put down the pipe. Believe it or not, the "self luminous" sights are very bright, although I would prefer a Novak low profile sight if/when they make one. Accuracy was just dead on, as is to be expected from HK. The only problem is the lack of "off duty" type holsters. Luckily it fits in my Safariland 6280 duty holster, as well as the model 070 SSIII holster. It does work with the Blackhawk serpa USP model, but it sticks out a little on the bottom. The only thing I would change on the HK45 is the mag release shape is an "L" shape, and takes some getting used to as opposed to the old USP style mag release, but it's a preference thing for me.
My M&P 45 is a very good gun, but accuracy was not as good as my HK. The trigger pull was a little "sloppy" at first and is just now getting better after break in. I experienced 2 malfunctions in 300 rounds I put through it (this was traced back to a single magazine that has sinced been replaced). The grip choices are good, but could have been "stipled" a little more rough. The sights are excellent, point of aim, point of impact. Speed was still good, follow up shots were fast, but not as fast as the HK. The pistol does feel good in the hand, even for a .45. One major problem I did have, although it did not effect function, was that the right side slide stop sheared completely off, so it's no longer "ambidextrous", I have since called S&W and a new slide stop is on its way. I dont think it's a ding on the pistol, as S&W told me that it was the first one they heard of. All in all, the M&P is a great pistol, and I prefer it over Glocks, but HK vs M&P, I say my HK45. If you get a chance, and you can, shoot both, then that would be the real deciding factor. Hope this helps.
My experience mirrors a lot of what Big A covered in the above post. I carry my HK 45 cocked and locked like a 1911. Shootability is superb for a .45. Holster selection is still a problem so I just made my own out of kydex.
My MP trigger also smoothed out and improved after several hundred rounds of shooting and dry fire. I ended up using a wood burning tool to stipple the front strap, backstraps, and under the trigger guard. I do get a little irritation from the HK 45 on my trigger finger from the groove inside the triggerguard after a while shooting it. I'll probably just sand it down a little.
Some people complain about only having 10 rounds on hand in these pistols but that doesn't bother me. I'll trade ergonomics over capacity any day. Both of my pistols have been 100% reliable so far at about 2500 rounds each. I have been very pleased with both of these purchases.
My experience mirrors a lot of what Big A covered in the above post. I carry my HK 45 cocked and locked like a 1911. Shootability is superb for a .45. Holster selection is still a problem so I just made my own out of kydex.
My MP trigger also smoothed out and improved after several hundred rounds of shooting and dry fire. I ended up using a wood burning tool to stipple the front strap, backstraps, and under the trigger guard. I do get a little irritation from the HK 45 on my trigger finger from the groove inside the triggerguard after a while shooting it. I'll probably just sand it down a little.
Some people complain about only having 10 rounds on hand in these pistols but that doesn't bother me. I'll trade ergonomics over capacity any day. Both of my pistols have been 100% reliable so far at about 2500 rounds each. I have been very pleased with both of these purchases.
kgreen,
I agree on the capacity, I have a USP 45F, and I prefer the 10 of HK45 over the 12 rd USP any day. If you need the extra 2 rds., then the #%^& has definitely hit the fan.:D On another note kgreen, those holsters look awesome, I may have some buiseness for you also because you have talent brother, very nice indeed. They look like they fit very comfortably, any problems or do you plan to change anything up a little after making mods or anything like that? Be safe :)
Have tried the M&P45, HK45, and HK45C.
Initially preferred the M&P to HKs w LEM, but after more shooting w both, and more w V1 HKs, I prefer the HKs.
I prefer the HK45C to the HK45 too. I haven't tried the new M&P45C yet, but I'll probabaly lke that better too. From what I hear, about the same size (7x5, 4 in bbl, 8 shots).
kgreen,
I agree on the capacity, I have a USP 45F, and I prefer the 10 of HK45 over the 12 rd USP any day. If you need the extra 2 rds., then the #%^& has definitely hit the fan.:D On another note kgreen, those holsters look awesome, I may have some buiseness for you also because you have talent brother, very nice indeed. They look like they fit very comfortably, any problems or do you plan to change anything up a little after making mods or anything like that? Be safe :)
Thanks for the comments. I can tweak the basic design to whatever you would like. They have proven to be very comfortable, especially with the thinner material.
I've got a question for those that have shot both - does the higher boreline (relative to the grip) of the HK make it less easy to shoot fast than the M&P?
I've got a question for those that have shot both - does the higher boreline (relative to the grip) of the HK make it less easy to shoot fast than the M&P?
For me it didn't make a noticeable diffference. I thought the higher bore axis would affect muzzle flip but both guns shoot quickly and recover quicker than any .45's I've personally fired before. That includes the Glock 21 and 1911's in various configurations.
The HK is quicker on the trigger for me due to the single action but a trigger job on the MP might help it I'm sure. I would really like to send the MP to Bowie Tactical and have him do one of his trigger jobs on it.
For me it didn't make a noticeable diffference. I thought the higher bore axis would affect muzzle flip but both guns shoot quickly and recover quicker than any .45's I've personally fired before. That includes the Glock 21 and 1911's in various configurations.
The HK is quicker on the trigger for me due to the single action but a trigger job on the MP might help it I'm sure. I would really like to send the MP to Bowie Tactical and have him do one of his trigger jobs on it.
interesting. to all who worship in the church J. Moses Browning, the lower bore axis is one of the attributes that prove the superiority of that gun. at least that's what they say when kicking sand on my SIG.
now I'm hearing that a similar configuration is not hindered by it. interesting...
sigmundsauer
04-23-08, 18:54
interesting. to all who worship in the church J. Moses Browning, the lower bore axis is one of the attributes that prove the superiority of that gun. at least that's what they say when kicking sand on my SIG.
now I'm hearing that a similar configuration is not hindered by it. interesting...
I've never experienced bore axis to be the big issue many make it out to be.
The 1911 is nice, but sight picture recovery in my much-higher bore axis (and lighter) HK USPc .45 ACP is every bit as fast or faster.
Likewise, too low of a bore axis can impart recoil energy to direct into the hand and make tracking sights under recoil more unpredictable. Really low bore axis works OK with 9mm's but heavier recoiling calibers need to roll back in the hand smoothly, IMO. Incidentally, there truly is very little down side to a gun that has muzzle flip, as long as the sights come back down predictably and quickly, or so it has been my experience.
HK's combination of long dwell time, heavy slide and light recoil springs makes for a very comfortable firing pistol.
Tim
Without a shot timer, there is no way to tell whether one is shooting a particular gun faster or slower than another. Our visual reference is distorted by a number of other things.
As always, everything is relative. Someone who consistently shoots 0.30 splits has a different frame of reference than someone who consistently shoots 0.15 splits. Bore axis definitely plays a role in speed. But it's not the only factor. A gun with a low bore axis might still have more flip or less controllable flip than one with a higher axis. But all else being equal, a lower bore axis seems to help most people make accurate shots faster.
sigmundsauer
04-24-08, 09:28
Without a shot timer, there is no way to tell whether one is shooting a particular gun faster or slower than another. Our visual reference is distorted by a number of other things.
As always, everything is relative. Someone who consistently shoots 0.30 splits has a different frame of reference than someone who consistently shoots 0.15 splits. Bore axis definitely plays a role in speed. But it's not the only factor. A gun with a low bore axis might still have more flip or less controllable flip than one with a higher axis. But all else being equal, a lower bore axis seems to help most people make accurate shots faster.
Agreed. Pistols are definitely a system that must be compatible with the shooter's grip and technique.
However, I've seen way too many lunkheads dismiss SIGs and HKs out of the gate simply after picking them up and assessing that they have a too high of a bore axis, or worse yet, because somebody else told them they have too high of a bore axis. Fewer actually run the gun long enough to determine for themselves the true facts.
Admittedly, after handling a Glock or 1911 for some time, it feels a bit awkward to hold a SIG or an HK. But that's perception, not reality. The truth is in how the gun handles in one's hands.
If bore axis were the most significant factor in fast shot recovery, we'd all be shooting a Steyr M-series. But it's not. And the M-series is not faster to shoot accurately versus higher-bore axis handguns in my experience.
Tim
I prefer the fullsize M&P45 to the HK45, the HK45c to both of them, and the M&P45c to all of them. Today anyway.
Something really odd: I no longer can find the M&P 45C referenced or pictured on the S&W website. You can find all the other current M&P versions of all the calibers up there (including 45 and 45 mid-size), but only the 45C has been specifically removed.
Wonder why?
I've been looking for it and had yet to find the 45c. It was just recently that the 45m's were added. The other compacts have been on the website for a while.
Low bore axis is desirable for most people. The pistol fits better into your hand and there is less muzzle rise. My HK 45 has much more of a twist and up muzzle rise than my M&P .45 which also has a beavertail that helps control recoil and muzzle rise. I can shoot the M&P .45 faster and more accurately as a result. Same with Glocks vs. Sigs. This is also why 1911 gunsmiths have gone to great lengths to get a low bore axis although they are still higher than most striker fired pistols. Does this mean bore axis is a requirement? Of course not. But to act as if it is not desirable goes against common sense. Using the Steyr M-series as representative of all low bore axis pistols makes no sense btw. Most of the people you see saying low bore axis makes no difference are defending their choice of pistol.
Agreed. Pistols are definitely a system that must be compatible with the shooter's grip and technique.
However, I've seen way too many lunkheads dismiss SIGs and HKs out of the gate simply after picking them up and assessing that they have a too high of a bore axis, or worse yet, because somebody else told them they have too high of a bore axis. Fewer actually run the gun long enough to determine for themselves the true facts.
Admittedly, after handling a Glock or 1911 for some time, it feels a bit awkward to hold a SIG or an HK. But that's perception, not reality. The truth is in how the gun handles in one's hands.
If bore axis were the most significant factor in fast shot recovery, we'd all be shooting a Steyr M-series. But it's not. And the M-series is not faster to shoot accurately versus higher-bore axis handguns in my experience.
Tim
When the new AWB shows up we may see people going back to the bigger bullet less capacity at a time when ammo costs are very high. I would highly recommend the Raven Concealment holster for the HK 45. Comp-Tac also has quite a few models and if you prefer leather then High Noon Holsters.
Some people complain about only having 10 rounds on hand in these pistols but that doesn't bother me. I'll trade ergonomics over capacity any day. Both of my pistols have been 100% reliable so far at about 2500 rounds each. I have been very pleased with both of these purchases.
Not to be to harsh but I do not see how anyone could put these two pistols in the same class. The HK45 is by far the best combat 45acp I have ever shot or owned. I like it so damn much that I sold other HK's including a couple of Expert models because the HK45 keeps up with them. I have 7k plus rounds through my HK45 and I have not even bothered to clean it yet. All of the rounds through my HK45 have been in training and IDPA shooting etc. It has been 100% in all aspects. I do shoot with several people who use the M&P and though it is a good gun they have not had the 100% reliablity that I have had with the HK45. Yes the HK is more money but you do get what you pay for. I would be guying a XD 45 well before I would buy the M&P. The XD 45acp I have has been 100% and like it much better then the G21SF I purchased. Bottom line is the HK45 is the best combat 45acp on the market today.
Dave
For the small price of $250. You can also order an HK 45 with LEM installed but it might take a while. Either way i would make sure you like the LEM trigger first. Lots of people love it, others don't. I prefer single action trigger locked and cocked. The HK 45 does have better quality components and fit and finish but only you can decide if it is worth considerably more $$$. Smith has great customer service, HK seriously needs work on theirs. Both are every accurate pistols and i have not seen one be better than the other except if fast follow up shots where the M&P is much better for me.
First off if you purchase an HK45 now, you can easily have it changed to LEM later. All you need to do is contact HK customer service and speak to them about getting it changed over to LEM, or any other variant you would like. Ask to speak to Travis (He is their head armorer) and he will explain the details.
Secondly, no one here can tell you which gun is "Better". That's a really subjective and personal decision. Personally for me, I shoot the HK45 better than I do the M&P series. Both seem to have great track records as far as durability is concerned. The M&P has had some issues in the past, but current revisions have made these non-existent. No problems are being reported with the HK45 as of yet, (other than a poor finish on the slide release).
I would encourage you to try both out at a range. See which one you shoot like.
Nope. You can order them with LEM.
HK45 come standard in DA/SA only. LEM refit is available through HK.
I don't notice any difference in reliability with mine at all and I have quite a few M&P .45's. What is your definition of a "combat" pistol"? People use that phrase without defining what they mean. To me there are military combat pistols and civilian/LEO combat pistols. In the latter, ease of firing fast accurate shots, reliability, and maintainability are important as you do not have an armorer providing them for you as in the military. Reliability is important in either case but especially in the military where weapons are often in rough conditions. Availability of spare parts is key. HK loses big time here. So does the XD and it has too many bells and whistles I don't want or need that provide potential points of failure. Having carried a variety of weapons in some pretty awful conditions I would be fine with being issued either the M&P .45 or HK 45 but not the XD. 7,000 rounds without cleaning? Why?
Not to be to harsh but I do not see how anyone could put these two pistols in the same class. The HK45 is by far the best combat 45acp I have ever shot or owned. I like it so damn much that I sold other HK's including a couple of Expert models because the HK45 keeps up with them. I have 7k plus rounds through my HK45 and I have not even bothered to clean it yet. All of the rounds through my HK45 have been in training and IDPA shooting etc. It has been 100% in all aspects. I do shoot with several people who use the M&P and though it is a good gun they have not had the 100% reliablity that I have had with the HK45. Yes the HK is more money but you do get what you pay for. I would be guying a XD 45 well before I would buy the M&P. The XD 45acp I have has been 100% and like it much better then the G21SF I purchased. Bottom line is the HK45 is the best combat 45acp on the market today.
Dave
Well HK designed this as a replacement for the US Military side arm as I am sure you know. It was designed as a combat weapon meaning it will work in all conditions, it will work dirty, shoot all types of ammo etc. In contrast to a gun like a 1911 that will most likely have a better trigger since it is single action then a 1911, possibly less muzzle flip since it is an all steel pistol etc. However modern day highly tuned 1911 pistols will not work in conditions that the HK45 will. I would place a Glock in the same combat weapon category as the HK. They work all the time!
I hate cleaning guns and it is interesting to see just how far it can go before it develops any issues. I tend to clean most my weapons except for a carry gun once a year.
They did not initially design it for the military but made changes to it later to try for the contract. I would think M&P also hoped to try for it but I don't the history of that. I'm sure others here do. I have a gun cleaning fetish that I don't try to deny borne from years of cleaning/lubing weapons in the military. Plus I do enjoy it. Any time I hear "combat" weapon I have to say I assume that to mean military weapon which means they go through things that no civilian or LEO weapon ever will and they do it repeatedly for years in the hands of many different people. The Glock seems to be doing well in Iraq/Stan from what I hear.
Have you been following Greg Bells torture test of his HK45 over on HKpro? He also did one on the P2000 and both of them have been awesome.
PS also Larry Vickers had a large roll in the design of the HK45 and that alone should give the weapon some added credibility.
dtibbals,
The HK45 and M&P45 are both good pistols. Personally I prefer the M&P, as I shoot it better and I can purchase 2 M&P's for the price of one HK45...
You might also wish to read what Larry Vickers has written on this topic:
"IMO the 2 best new .45 service pistols on the market are the M&P 45 and the HK 45 - they are in a league of their own. Both are easily tweaked for optimum performance and are accurate and reliable right out of the box - for the money I think the M&P is a better choice but the HK 45 is a more bomb proof pistol - I know first hand what went into the testing and development of it - for a service pistol it is as rugged and reliable as any 45 made today."
Larry has also pointed out some problems with the HK45 that you might wish to review: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=151649#post151649
sigmundsauer
12-18-08, 07:07
Low bore axis is desirable for most people. The pistol fits better into your hand and there is less muzzle rise. My HK 45 has much more of a twist and up muzzle rise than my M&P .45 which also has a beavertail that helps control recoil and muzzle rise. I can shoot the M&P .45 faster and more accurately as a result. Same with Glocks vs. Sigs. This is also why 1911 gunsmiths have gone to great lengths to get a low bore axis although they are still higher than most striker fired pistols. Does this mean bore axis is a requirement? Of course not. But to act as if it is not desirable goes against common sense. Using the Steyr M-series as representative of all low bore axis pistols makes no sense btw. Most of the people you see saying low bore axis makes no difference are defending their choice of pistol.
I don't doubt for a moment that you can shoot the M&P or Glocks best, however my point was that too many people dismiss outstanding pistols such as SIGs and HKs based off of a perception of the ill effects of a higher bore axis without actually shooting them. Frankly, few people have the money to own and truly experiment with all sorts of different pistols. However, I would vehemently disagree that a low bore axis is going to automatically mean one will shoot a pistol better or faster. I can shoot SIGs and HKs faster and more accurately than Glocks. I can shoot an HK USPc .45 faster than any 1911. All despite their higher bore axes. Yes, anecdotal. The IDPA circuit I shot with for the last 4 years was dominated by high bore axis pistols in SSP. ALL of the top shooters were running SIGs. CDP was dominated by 1911 of course but we all remember the year that Ernest Langdon dominated the 1911s with a SIG P220 destroying myths that high bore axis and DA/SA triggers were slow and inaccurate. One can choose to dismiss these facts but they'd be wrong. And just because gunsmiths provide a service doesn't mean that it's always better. Many gunsmiths don't even shoot that much. They are running a business and supply a service to the customer's request or what the market bears. Some, not all. The fact is that there are far too many other factors to contribute to fast and accurate shooting than can be boiled to "low bore axis equals faster shooting." The angle of muzzle rise is not directly related to how fast a pistol can be shot. I will concede that the M&P series of pistols have many very favorable shooting qualities packaged into a single platform and shoot very well for a great many people. Regardless, even if one could statistically prove that an M&P is some mircosecond or two faster and better shooting than an HK45 would be moot. If all one can do is obsessively measure their splits on a timer or at an IDPA/USPSA match then so be it. Many, including myself, will choose an HK45 over an M&P because HK has built a long standing reputation for engineering and building weapons intended to be fought with, not played with, using the best materials possible, dare I say "without compromise," and even at the expense of a competitive market that has only driven prices down, and usually quality down with it.
Tim
No pistols are "bomb proof". They aren't even "fed proof". Heck, they aren't even "child proof" yet. Obama may take care of that?
HKs (USPc and P2000) in federal service (ICE, CBP, TSA) have had probs here and there. Rust probs, reliability probs, and breakage probs. Not 45s, but very similar guns.
M&Ps have not been in service long enough for a fair comparison, and there have been issues, but they look good so far. Could be more gremlins waiting to pounce on them too, who knows?
Stuff happens. Beretta slides did not break during final M9 testing, SIG frames did, and look what happened later? Not likely to need to, but you can replace the front/rear frame rails and ejector on the M&P, not the HKs. Remember the great Glock frame (rail) "upgrade" a few yrs ago? Local SD only had to replace 230 of theirs. Wouldn't that have been fun w several hundred thousand service pistols?
Well HK designed this as a replacement for the US Military side arm as I am sure you know.
And S&W designed the M&P45 for the exact same reason. Not sure I understand the point.
It was designed as a combat weapon meaning it will work in all conditions, it will work dirty, shoot all types of ammo etc.
What popular LE/mil guns do you think were not designed with that in mind?
I hate cleaning guns and it is interesting to see just how far it can go before it develops any issues.
Can't argue with that:
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/normal_triggerspring.jpg
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/normal_breachface.jpg
I don't doubt for a moment that you can shoot the M&P or Glocks best, however my point was that too many people dismiss outstanding pistols such as SIGs and HKs based off of a perception of the ill effects of a higher bore axis without actually shooting them.
Agreed 100%. Almost every IDPA or USPSA trophy I've got was won with either a Beretta (moderately high bore axis) or SIG (very high bore axis).
Does a lower bore axis help control shot recovery? Sure.
Weight in the frame helps, too. Funny that the Glock/Smith/H&K folks forget that part. :cool:
The reality is that there are many factors that affect how well a gun helps the shooter recover from shot to shot. If you can't shoot a SIG or H&K without the gun getting away from you in recoil, you've got a technique problem. Fix that problem, and you'll not only shoot the SIG/H&K better, you'll shoot your "low bore axis" guns better, too.
And Tim, I always respect what you write but dude if I send you a dollar will you start using paragraphs? :cool:
As you know a number of the high bore axis pistols we are talking about, such as the Hk 45 and Sig have a high bore axis and a light receiver so they are top heavy. I am also not referring to people like most of us who post here who I would hope shoot and train quite a lot. Most people don't and for most people I think a low bore axis is a good thing.
I love a low bore axis on a pistol. Love it! :D Doesn't mean I don't shoot high bore axis pistols well which is why I have more than a few of them. Also there are plenty of people, considered legends in hand gun shooting, Col. Cooper and so on, who reference a low bore axis as a desirable trait in a handgun.
As you know a number of the high bore axis pistols we are talking about, such as the Hk 45 and Sig have a high bore axis and a light receiver so they are top heavy.
There's also the issue of where/how the slide force gets delivered into the frame and into the gun. With a SIG, for example, the force occurs well below the bore line and almost as low in the hand as you'd get shooting a Glock/M&P/etc.
I am also not referring to people like most of us who post here who I would hope shoot and train quite a lot. Most people don't and for most people I think a low bore axis is a good thing.
I would have to disagree. For someone with minimal training, the bore axis is going to be a very minor factor in shot recovery. Only once grip, visual reference, and proper trigger manipulation skills have reached serious proficiency will things like bore axis make a meaningful difference in actual performance.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-19-08, 23:45
I really like the HK45. It is a great shooting, reliable gun. I have 13k through mine without a hiccup. I have taken it to a three classes and it has performed admirably. http://gallery.me.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010067/web.jpg Based on what I have seen I doubt you can buy a more robust .45.
Although this is my current favorite .45...
http://gallery.me.com/timetravelfoundation/100038/P1010002_2/web.jpg
Greg,
Your a bit further then me on round count on the HK45 but I am trying to catch you when I have time! Mine is my favorite as well. What is your lever action? I have been looking at Marlin Guide guns 18" and maybe cut it down to the 16.5". I have it down to the 45/70 or 450 Marlin. The 45/70 has been around for ever but the 450 Marlin is pretty damn impressive.
Dave
PS Nice to see you here as well as HKpro.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-20-08, 00:28
Hey,
Yeah, I have been slack on my HK45 shooting. I have soooo much brass to reload.
The Marlin is a 45/70 guide gun cut down by Brockman's. They also brought the tube out to 5+1. It is my favorite rifle.
My "technique'" if you can call it that is to go ahead and let the muzzle rise and drop right back down for another shot. Works for me and doesn't seem to slow me down much if any. What do you recommend?
If you can't shoot a SIG or H&K without the gun getting away from you in recoil, you've got a technique problem. Fix that problem, and you'll not only shoot the SIG/H&K better, you'll shoot your "low bore axis" guns better, too.
My "technique'" if you can call it that is to go ahead and let the muzzle rise and drop right back down for another shot. Works for me and doesn't seem to slow me down much if any. What do you recommend?
Without seeing you shoot, it's impossible to diagnose. But shot recovery technique certainly involves a lot more than "let it go up and watch it come back down." :cool:
I understand your partly tongue in cheek here but I don't actually watch it go up and down. It's just normal for me to let it pop up while I keep my eye on the target and reacquire the front sight when it comes down. One thing I don't try to do is keep a tight hold on the pistol to keep it from moving. I used to some time ago but that just made my hands shake after a while.
I own and like both guns - I think for the $$ the M&P is hard to beat but knowing how the HK45 has been built and tested there is no doubt it is the most bomb proof hard use .45 on the market now - if I wanted to buy a .45 pistol and be as confident as is possible in our man made world that the gun will go bang when I pull the trigger - regardless of the circumstances - I would buy the HK45
My recommendation would be to try and find one of those indoor ranges that has rental guns and try both if possible - but in the end I think you will be fine with either one
they are, in many ways, the modern replacement to the 1911 that has been touted for so long by so many other designs
be safe
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Mr. Vickers,
Would you say that the same can be said of the P2000? Did HK put the same effort into that platform?
I was and am a huge USP fan, and may add a P2000 to the battery soon. I live in CA, so for now I *think* that the HK45 is of limits.:(
Just curious. I can't think of anybody more "plugged into" H&K than you.
Apologies for minor thread drift. Mods, no hard feelings if this post needs to be pruned.
I understand your partly tongue in cheek here but I don't actually watch it go up and down. It's just normal for me to let it pop up while I keep my eye on the target and reacquire the front sight when it comes down. One thing I don't try to do is keep a tight hold on the pistol to keep it from moving. I used to some time ago but that just made my hands shake after a while.
We're getting far afield of the original thread, but I'll just say that looking at your target during recoil is definitely not the best way to shoot fast (at least, if you're trying to use your sights to aim). And you don't just hold the gun tight, you hold it in a particular way that maximizes control.
Well I prolly need a LEM trigger on the Hk 45 because that thumb safety is in my way and I can't hold it the way I want which is high grip, thumbs forward. My M&P's don't have a thumb safety so that + Beavertail, + low bore axis ;) give me the best grip of any handgun I have ever shot. It's like my hand sliding into a glove.
theJanitor
12-23-08, 11:33
from Hilton Yam's newsletter on Sunday:
Battle of the Plastic .45's
I recently had the opportunity to shoot some of the front runners in the current crop of fantastic plastic .45 ACP service pistols in a side by side test. While very subjective and relatively informal, this testing proved quite informative. All firing was performed at 7 yards on three IDPA type targets evenly spaced apart about 1 meter center to center. The other shooter, David, was of similar skill and experience level - he's a buddy who is a SWAT operator, firearms instructor, and an
avid IDPA Master Class shooter.
The pistols tested were the HK45 full size in Variant 1 configuration (cocked & locked, with decock capability), Glock 21, and S&W M&P .45 4" with thumb safety. We would run each string once or twice with one pistol, then either alternate shooters or switch guns. Strings of fire included two on each target, failure drills (2 body, 1 head), strong hand only 2 on each target, and two body on each then one head on each. All ammunition was Winchester Q4170 ball fed from the factory magazines. Due to the issues with juggling holsters and mag pouches, we did not perform any reloads or draws for the protocol. All firing was initiated from the high ready.
Each of the review sections refers to the guns "tracking", so I want to make sure we are all on the same page as far as what we're talking about. Tracking primarily refers to the gun's characteristics when moving in recoil, which has significant effects on sight recovery. The shooter's physical characteristics and mechanical capability also affect tracking, but each gun also has particular traits that it imparts to the experience. Tracking can also refer peripherally to the ability to drive the gun between targets in recoil, as the gun's recovery in recoil in conjunction with its overall pointability and muzzle balance have a profound effect on this. My buddy David and I rate guns critically on their tracking and ergonomics, as these two sets of characteristics have the most significant effects on the utility of a gun.
Glock 21
The Glock 21 wore a 10-8 .140" rear notch sight with a .215" trititum front and was otherwise stock. This was one of my buddy's IDPA guns and the stock trigger was quite smooth from countless rounds. The reset was positive as with all Glocks. He has larger hands than I do and did not have issues with the gun's grip circumference. I wear a size 8 flight glove and I immediately noted how thick and wide the grip felt. The Glock was the only one of the test guns which held more than 10 rounds in the magazine. I wonder how the gun would feel if it had been made with a 10 round magazine instead of 13. Despite the huge feel in the hand, I was able to shoot the gun well in the testing. I would expect that the size would come into play during the drawstroke as well as manipulations such as hand transfers and reloading.
Overall the gun behaved as most Glocks, and tracked well in recoil, returning positively to a neutral position after firing. The recoil impulse was soft, but sometimes exhibited a loose mechanical feel much like the impulse of an AK-47 where you can feel the parts moving around in recoil. The gun behaved quite differently when it was fully loaded than when it was almost empty. The difference in the felt recoil and speed in tracking was significant - the gun moved more sharply when empty and more slowly/softly when fully loaded.
HK45
The HK45 tested was bone stock and featured the Variant 1 configuration, which permits cocked & locked carry with a decocking capability if you press the safety down past "Fire." The overall feel of the pistol gained positive marks from all who handled it, and it does feel good in the hand. The single action trigger was very good, but no one volunteered to shoot it DA/SA as the DA pull was quite long and heavy. All test firing was done in single action only. The overall trigger movement was a bit long in that the trigger had to be let out most of the way for the reset, but it did not cause any issues in live fire.
The litmus test of course was live fire, and this is where the HK45 really got interesting. Its high bore axis made for a detached feel in regards to pointability and created a rather pronounced muzzle flip. The muzzle flip was such that shooters remarked that they were "spectators" in the gun's recoil recovery, and that you had to put it back rather than it returning on its own. I likened it to holding on to a pogo stick. It wasn't that the recoil was violent - the straight back recoil was quite soft, but that the muzzle bounced around a lot. After rising and then falling in recoil, the muzzle bounced around a bit prior to stopping at neutral. The gun was quite a chore to shoot one handed in any type of hurry, as the muzzle simply did not want to return on its own.
The HK45 also has a few other issues of note. The Variant 1 decock/safety was often pushed down to the decock position (especially when shooting one handed), and required conscious effort not to decock the gun. If I wasn't careful, I could lock up the trigger trying to decock the hammer as I was pressing the trigger. There is a trough in trigger guard that the bottom of the trigger rides in, and this can abrade the trigger finger of some shooters. Of the three guns, it is the heaviest when empty. The gun's long magazines and unique mag catch design (the typical HK lever that needs to be pressed down to release the magazine) make reloading a bit more difficult. I ended up using my trigger finger to drop the mag as I can't reach it with my thumb. The length of the mags can make indexing them into the magazine well somewhat harder to make repeatable.
The HK45 wasn't all bad news, as its saving grace was its exceptional inherent accuracy and how easy it was for shooters to exploit that right away. The barrel uses the same rubber O-ring setup seen on other HK pistols, and it blows my mind that a plastic service pistol with a rubber ring on its drop-in barrel can outshoot a lot of custom 1911s. The magazines were easy to fill, and feature an excellent corrosion resistant finish.
S&W M&P45, 4"
The last gun has already been reviewed in great detail in a previous newsletter (CLICK HERE TO READ THE REVIEW), and it is likely no surprise that it fared very well in this comparison. Of the three guns, it was the lightest and most ergonomic. It was the snappiest in recoil, but it tracked extremely well and returned sharply. I likened the M&P's tracking to watching the Glock 21 in fast motion. Once it came down out of recoil, it stopped moving. Period. It was an interesting contrast going between this gun and the HK. The low bore line and light weight made the gun extremely quick to move between targets. When transitioning between the different pistols, I found that the M&P sometimes returned before I was ready to shoot.
The Achilles heel of the gun is its gritty trigger with indistinct reset. For dedicated individual users, this is easily remedied with a trip to David Bowie's shop. Each generation of the M&P has had improvements in the triggers, and it is my hope that the maturation of the platform brings a consistent out of the box trigger. The other main issue is the magazines, which rust quite easily. All of my dull blue mags were speckled and brown or orange. This is with routine handling and even spraying or wiping with Shooter's Choice Rust Prevent. As I've noted before, bluing is a lousy finish for a service weapon, particularly in the humid climate like that of South Florida. S&W is phasing in a grey electroless nickel looking finish for the .45 magazines, and a black spray on polymer coating in the 9/.40 magazines. In my experience with all the generations of magazines, these new finishes resolve the fuzzy brown mag problem.
Overall Impressions:
After finishing the shooting, I came up with a few "big picture" impressions of each gun.
The Glock 21 is a big, thick gun that is soft in recoil, tracks well, and benefits from the classic consistent Glock trigger with positive reset. It is a solid performer, if it fits your hand, which is a critical caveat. For me, the weight and size were very much of a deal breaker.
The HK45 has good overall ergonomics and it is very easy to exploit its inherent accuracy. Most shooters who picked it up were able to print excellent groups with it right away. It simultaneously bugs and amazes me that a plastic gun with a rubber O-ring around the end of a drop-in barrel can shoot as well as many hand fit custom 1911s. The Variant 1 decock/safety and weird mag catch make for challenging manual of arms. If I could, I would lose the decock function by going to the Variant 9 if/when the parts become available. Users may also want to take a hard look at the LEM trigger module. The high bore axis makes the gun point in a somewhat detached manner and recoil recovery is a bit of a chore. The gun is big and relatively heavy, so handling and carry can be an issue for smaller users. It is pushing the maximum size for an exposed carry duty gun. The upside, and it is a big one, is that this big gun boasts the famous HK reliability and performance.
The M&P45 is lightweight and exudes excellent ergonomics. It is hands down the most comfortable of the three guns tested. Its trigger is useable but most specimens could benefit from some work. It is snappy in recoil but extremely fast returning on target. The low bore axis in combination with fast tracking made this a very shootable setup. For me, I feel that it is the clear winner with many positives overshadowing a relatively small and fully correctable gripe list.
Not surprisingly, the S&W was my overall pick after running the three. Its excellent ergonomics and tracking characteristics made it the best shooting and handling gun. The HK wins hands down in the accuracy and trigger categories, but is a harder gun to shoot for speed and multiple rounds. It has a high build quality as expected, and has the famous HK reliability. The Glock was predictably Glock-like, and is a very functional gun as long as it fits your hand. I would characterize the 21 as the most "middle of the road" gun in that it did not have severe deficits or benefits over the other two guns in most categories (other than size). The durability/longevity record of the Glock 21 is somewhat mixed. The HK45 and M&P45 are both still too new to have full track record, but I hope for good things.
Anyone looking for a pistol for uniform patrol or tactical team use would do well with any of the three guns tested. However, the size and weight of the HK and Glock would limit their utility for plainclothes use for some personnel. Here is where the M&P would shine. Conversely, the M&P works fine in the other roles too, making it the most versatile of the three. I hope that this little shooting test gives folks some food for thought and is of value in making the right choice in a service pistol.
Good Hunting.
Hilton Yam
10-8 Performance
Wow thats interesting. I knew what Hilton though of the M&P but have always wondered what he thought of the Hk 45 since he has never mentioned it. Guess he doesn't like the HK 45 high bore axis and muzzle flip either...;)
BTW for whatever reason i don't get anything like the muzzle flip on the HK 45c as on the full size and man is it accurate. I don't think it gives up anything to the full size in that regard. The mid-size M&P .45 is also my favorite. The compact M&P .45 doesn't let me get all my fingers around the grip and that is a requirement for me in a carry pistol.
Here it is on 10-8 forums along with pictures.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=76683&an=0&page=0#76683
Bowie Tactical
12-23-08, 12:36
I have to agree with Hilton. I shoot alot of both guns due to me owning the M&P and working on and test firing alot of the HK 45's. I shoot them from time to time side by side and the HK does muzzle flip alot more. HK has always been known for the strength of the USP line and the P-30 and HK 45 but HK always misses the shootability part. Trigger reaches that are to long and stiff, guns set to high in the hand. Great grip on these last two but again bad shootability when compared to other guns. You can fix triggers you can't get a gun to sit alot lower though. I love the fact that the HK's are so strong but the over all package needs alot of work to really make it worth the $$$.
Still though, that's why they make different guns because people like different things.
CHECK 360 David Bowie
Good seeing your presence on the board again Mr. Bowie.
Sidewinder6
12-24-08, 11:08
Having read the test findings from Hilton I have to agree with the points detracting from the HK overall.
That said, when I handled the M&P I thought the trigger was an attrocity so I left that off my list completely. I hear the triggers clean up well and to be honest, I did the same thing with the HK before I came to appreciate the accuracy.
I have larger hands and have to say, I didnt consider the bore axis until seeing the photo comparison so I learned something from reading the post.
I run my HK with the larger backstrap and like the feel of the gun in my hand over the compact variant. This is not an ideal gun for truly concealed carry because of its size. But it runs and I trust its reliability over my high end custom 1911's.
I have seen M&P's firing pins break the tip off on the range. This didn't improve my overall first impression when listening to the shooters who love the M&P.
I was actually considering one of the short frame variants from Glock before handling the HK's and once I handled the latter, I decided to get the full sized model. It is a matter of taste but I have a bad taste from the earlier pistol versions Smith turned out in the 70's. I probably will give the M&P another try at some point because there is a lot of really positive feedback comming from credible shooters.
honestly I think they are both good guns! The h&k's are very expensive. I myself have a S&W .40 M&P the gun is acurrate and even for beign the 4" one instead of the 3" one it is easy to carry. Plus the rounds are cheaper in the .40 than the .45 and as much as I shot on the week days and on the weekends that little money I save ends up beign a lot at the end of the year. I payed $585.00 for my S&W. But wich ever you buy will be a good buy!!!...vic
With all due respect to Hilton Yam: It seems to me that if you were shooting the HK45 with a high thumb hold and trying not to depress the decocker then you couldn't really grip the gun properly. Wouldn't it make more sense to shoot it with a low thumb? Or switch to the single action only variant without a decocker if you wanted to shoot high thumb. If you held it the same way you held the Glock then I think you would have a better overall grip. Perhaps his vast expeeriance with the 1911 and M&P was a hinderance to shooting the HK45. Not to mention when using your finger instead of your thumb the HK45 mag release is faster then any other I have tried. Just a thought and I could be way off base here but it dosen't seem like a fai comparison.
With all due respect to Hilton Yam: It seems to me that if you were shooting the HK45 with a high thumb hold and trying not to depress the decocker then you couldn't really grip the gun properly. Wouldn't it make more sense to shoot it with a low thumb?
Not speaking for Hilton, but any company that tells me I need to substantially modify my grip to a less-effective method just so I don't have incompatibility issues with their gun is not going to have me as a customer. My guess is that Hilton et al are not interested in compromising their shooting ability just so they can have a particular gun.
Or switch to the single action only variant without a decocker if you wanted to shoot high thumb.
No question, were that variant the commonly available version then this problem wouldn't occur.
BushmasterFanBoy
12-24-08, 15:35
I prefer the HK45. I have had trigger time behind an M&P9, as well as an M&P40. Both of these models were out of the box and were stock.
My first impressions of the M&P were that I liked the Novak style three white dot sights when compared to what the HK45 had. The M&P did not sit well in my hands, I finally settled on using the medium back strap after a bit of shooting. The trigger was horrible. I do not have extensive time on what I call "striker style triggers" (XD, M&P). I did not like the trigger at all, and I feel this along with the poor grip resulted in the M&P having poor shootability for me personally.
I do like the slide serrations on the M&P as well as the sights. I do not like the trigger or the comfort of the grip when compared to the HK45. The HK45 with it's texture and finger groves, makes the pistol feel as though it sits comfortably in your hand. The M&P does not have the same feel when you put it in your hand. I do not know if this is the same for every shooter but the three there that day noted that the HK45 did in fact feel better in the hand. The trigger and the grip were the two biggest downfalls of the M&P pistol in my opinion.
I have posted these two videos in another thread, but thought it would be highly relevant to this one. This is me shooting both pistols, I had similar results on each run.
HK45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIeYylyxU30
M&P .40 S&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gERrKhltuFA
Of course I know other shooters out there who shoot the M&P series better than they do the HK45. You really need to try both out and see what works for you. I will say that it seems from what I have read and heard on the range, that the grip of the HK45 feels "better" than the M&P series.
*
Just my opinion, take it for what is worth ($0.00). :D.
I CCW mine pretty easily with a Raven Concealment holster. Probably one of the few holsters that allows that with an HK 45. I also CCW a full size M&P .45 with a Raven concealment holster.
I run my HK with the larger backstrap and like the feel of the gun in my hand over the compact variant. This is not an ideal gun for truly concealed carry because of its size. But it runs and I trust its reliability over my high end custom 1911's.
Unfortunately all you can get right now for the HK 45 is DA/SA with decocker or LEM. I have not heard anything at all of other variants coming available although that doesn't mean it isn't in the works. But yeah i also have to modify my grip for the Hk 45 which cause issues with accuracy being all it could be as well as muzzle flip. Normally i would never do such a thing but I just love this pistol.
Not speaking for Hilton, but any company that tells me I need to substantially modify my grip to a less-effective method just so I don't have incompatibility issues with their gun is not going to have me as a customer. My guess is that Hilton et al are not interested in compromising their shooting ability just so they can have a particular gun.
No question, were that variant the commonly available version then this problem wouldn't occur.
I think it is safe to say that Hilton has had vast experience with plenty of pistols beyond the 1911 and M&P. He is a working SWAT guy and one of the best 1911 gunsmiths in the biz. For one of the best 1911 gunsmiths/shooters guys in the country/world to say he would happily use an M&P 45 as a duty pistol says quite a lot.
As to M&P triggers they have just gotten better and better so if you haven't tried one in awhile you might be surprised.
Perhaps his vast expeeriance with the 1911 and M&P was a hinderance to shooting the HK45. Not to mention when using your finger instead of your thumb the HK45 mag release is faster then any other I have tried. Just a thought and I could be way off base here but it dosen't seem like a fai comparison.
Regarding the unintended decock: I installed the ambi safety on my HK45 and don't have a problem. I shoot southpaw, and the left side safety rests on top of my trigger and prevents the decocker from being activated. I've never had it happen. Until the SA only bits are available, the ambi safety might be a decent compromise.
Not speaking for Hilton, but any company that tells me I need to substantially modify my grip to a less-effective method just so I don't have incompatibility issues with their gun is not going to have me as a customer. My guess is that Hilton et al are not interested in compromising their shooting ability just so they can have a particular gun.
No question, were that variant the commonly available version then this problem wouldn't occur.
Your grip would change if you were firing a Glock, Sig, M&P without a thumb safety, revolver or any other gun without a thumb safety like a 1911s. So why wouldn't you change it for a HK45? If his article would have been titled wich plastic pistol shoots the most like a 1911 or wich one is easiest to transition to from a 1911 it would have made more sense. I don't know wbout you but I grip a Glock different than a 1911 why should the HK45 be treated differently?
I think it is safe to say that Hilton has had vast experience with plenty of pistols beyond the 1911 and M&P. He is a working SWAT guy and one of the best 1911 gunsmiths in the biz. For one of the best 1911 gunsmiths/shooters guys in the country/world to say he would happily use an M&P 45 as a duty pistol says quite a lot.
As to M&P triggers they have just gotten better and better so if you haven't tried one in awhile you might be surprised.
I am aware of his experiance. thats why I find his difficulty with the HK45s mag release difficult to understand. Except for the fact that he has trained himself to use a differnt style of mag release so it created problems for him. Same point I made with the safety.
I'm not disputting anything about the M&Ps quality. I just don't agree with his thoughts on the H&K45. I think his opinion is based on what his is used to. If you shoot a XD all the time and have grown accustomed to it don't you thikn picking up an M&P with thumb safety is going to create training challenges as well? Wouldn't you adjust your grip and technique to the M&P? SO why shoudl the HK45 be any different?
Hilton Yam
12-24-08, 19:38
I suppose that I am glad that my article has generated so much conversation. I want to provide some clarification on some of the discussion points.
I never said that I wanted to operate all of the guns the same as a 1911. However, the HK45 has been touted as the modern successor to the 1911, so it is not unreasonable to look at it as such during an initial encounter. I am not proposing that one grip all handguns the same, but to adopt an inefficient and outdated low thumb grip to get around the safety on the HK is not the correct solution. Todd pretty much hit that nail squarely on the head. Based on my hand size, and especially when shooting strong hand only, the safety is just waiting to get pushed down to decock. I'm all over the Variant 9 parts if they ever become available.
As far as the mag catch, I just am not a huge fan of having to use my trigger finger to hit it. It works, but when all the other semi-auto pistols I use to train and teach - 1911s, Sigs, Glocks, M&P - are all operated by pushing in with your thumb, you can see why having to swim upstream with the HK is a bit less attractive of an option for me. The length of the mags, in relation to my hand size, made it a bit more work to index into the mag well as compared to shorter mags like the M&P. Add these two factors together, and it was a bit more work for me to reload the HK than the M&P.
However, for all of the issues I pointed out with the various guns, our performance during the test session was pretty similar with all three guns. As always, it's the shooter, not the gun. The variances in our times and hits were within normal statistical variation, it's just what we experienced that was very different with each gun. Each gun is going to fit each shooter a bit differently, which is why we have all these choices available. My buddy ranked his Glock 21 first, then the M&P, then the HK45. I would rate the M&P my first pick, the HK45 the second, and the Glock 21 a distant third. Despite my relative lack of criticism of the 21, the real deal breaker for me was the grip circumference.
I hope this clears up any questions.
I'm anxious for the plastic fantastic throw down part 2 as I'm curious how the G21SF will stack up in the mix.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-25-08, 11:07
After 13k+ through my HK45 I have yet to decock my gun while shooting. Never did it with the USPs I have had either. I have run my Colt/Novak 1911 and HK45 in classes and have never had any control lever related transition issues. As Hilton said, it looks like each person is going to be different.
My first gun was a P7M8 (oh, the 80s!). So I learned to drop mags with my trigger finger. When I first bought a SIG and realized I had to change my grip to drop the mags I thought, "damn, this system is crazy!" Through the years I have gotten used to button mag releases, but have always been much faster with the lever style.
I thought the HK mag drop would be really annoying after 30 + years of 1911's etc. but i liked it immediately and prefer it over anything else.
?? Not sure what you mean since he did compare the 21SF to the HK and M&P?
I'm anxious for the plastic fantastic throw down part 2 as I'm curious how the G21SF will stack up in the mix.
IrishDevil
12-25-08, 13:58
They used a standard 21, according to the article.
http://www.rawbrilliance.com/images/sw_mp45_hk45/sw_mp45_hk45.jpg
I own both the USP and USPc .45’s, both V9. I had vowed never to shoot a non-V9 HK pistol, but when the HK45 was finally released, I was so excited that I compromised and bought one. I only have 775 rounds through my HK45. I lock up the trigger often enough that I decided not to expend additional ammo until HK is willing to sell me a V9 plate. My hands are skinny enough that an ambi-safety alone cannot produce the desired effect. I can relax my grip slightly so that it doesn’t happen, but I’m not yet willing to sacrifice that tiny bit of performance when there are other options available.
I also own a new M&P45, only 350 rounds so far. My first impression was that the recoil was harsher than the HK45 (I’m a small dude). And, I’m so used to cheating with 1911’s, HK’s, and Glocks that the M&P45 trigger makes me feel like I’m learning to shoot for the first time. The reset doesn’t bother me, it’s just the pull itself. The speed is there, I’m just not getting the accuracy that I’m used to. Also, the slide lock lever is a bit slick when my hands are sweaty, resulting in the occasional whiff. Kind of makes me want to go back to the overhand method.
Overall, I prefer the HK45, but Smith & Wesson provides a complete solution that is currently and readily available, so I have to go with the M&P45. I know I don't have a lot of rounds through these guns at this point, but I'm not giving any advice. Just sharing my very limited experience.
As for complaining about HK’s bore axis, I’ve found them to be close enough to a 1911’s that there are other more significant factors at work that affect their shootability.
http://www.rawbrilliance.com/images/sw_mp45_hk45/hk45_axis_vs_1911.jpg
There is a huge difference between making a small grip adjustment (going from Glock to SIG, say) and switching to an altogether different grip technique.
Furthermore, with any thumb safety equipped pistol, it is a bad idea to use any grip technique that fails to ride the safety during shooting. This ensures that the gun is and remains off-safe when you want to fire.
Your grip would change if you were firing a Glock, Sig, M&P without a thumb safety, revolver or any other gun without a thumb safety like a 1911s. So why wouldn't you change it for a HK45? If his article would have been titled wich plastic pistol shoots the most like a 1911 or wich one is easiest to transition to from a 1911 it would have made more sense. I don't know wbout you but I grip a Glock different than a 1911 why should the HK45 be treated differently?
There is a huge difference between making a small grip adjustment (going from Glock to SIG, say) and switching to an altogether different grip technique.
Furthermore, with any thumb safety equipped pistol, it is a bad idea to use any grip technique that fails to ride the safety during shooting. This ensures that the gun is and remains off-safe when you want to fire.
I hardly think moving your thumb 1/4"-3/8" is a huge difference. It is not ideal, but it is better than changing the way you apply pressure to the gun to avoid decocking it. If you can't ride the safety without decocking or locking up the trigger then it is a much worse idea to shoot with your thumb on the safety then below it. Many people don't seem to have a problem with decocking the HK45 when riding the safety. If you do and you still want an HK45 or are forced to carry one because of department policy then you're gonna have to change something to make it work.
theJanitor
12-26-08, 14:39
^but if it's your own dime, you shouldn't have to "make it work"
I'm a 1911 shooter, and i just tried out a buddy's HK45 with the LEM trigger. i had to work way too hard to make it work. but i grabbed a another buddy's M&P, and i was quicker and more accurate, in a shorter amount of time.
I now have a M&P from Grant, sitting at my FFL, waiting for my paperwork to clear.
I hardly think moving your thumb 1/4"-3/8" is a huge difference.
I hardly think changing from a thumbs forward safety riding grip to a low thumbs below the safety grip can be summed up as nothing more than a 1/4 to 3/8" difference. Just because you don't have a problem doesn't make it a rare problem, as evidenced by the number of people in this thread alone who have reported it.
It works for you. Be happy. No one said the gun sucks. Accept that it doesn't work as well for a fair number of other folks.
I would be very interested to see what Hilton thinks of the HK45c. To my surprise I have no grip issues with it nor do I notice the higher bore line plus the thing is a tack driver. I wish I had not waited so long to buy one.
I hardly think changing from a thumbs forward safety riding grip to a low thumbs below the safety grip can be summed up as nothing more than a 1/4 to 3/8" difference. Just because you don't have a problem doesn't make it a rare problem, as evidenced by the number of people in this thread alone who have reported it.
It works for you. Be happy. No one said the gun sucks. Accept that it doesn't work as well for a fair number of other folks.
I never said it was a rare problem. Neither is having to change your grip on the gun to release the mag with most designs. Nor is needing to use snap caps to dry fire an M&P (wich is a PITA with a striker fired pistol by the way), to aviod breaking the fring pin. All I did was disagree with some of the points made in the article and offer counter points. As far as it not working for a "fair number of other folks" the same can be said for the M&P, Glock or any other platform out there.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-26-08, 19:27
The funny thing is, I shoot thumbs forward and ride the safety on my HK45--it has never occurred to me to do otherwise. I shoot it same way I do my 1911s. I don't have the issue of the gun decocking. On my gun, it requires a fairly serious downward push on the lever to decock it. I do, however, use an extremely tight (gorrilla) grip that I use on all of my guns, and always have. I suspect this might be why I don't have the issue.
I never said it was a rare problem. Neither is having to change your grip on the gun to release the mag with most designs. Nor is needing to use snap caps to dry fire an M&P (wich is a PITA with a striker fired pistol by the way), to aviod breaking the fring pin. All I did was disagree with some of the points made in the article and offer counter points. As far as it not working for a "fair number of other folks" the same can be said for the M&P, Glock or any other platform out there.
(1) I have no major heartburn with the mag release. I prefer to use my trigger finger to drop mags (works well for me with my hands) and have done so since I started shooting Berettas back in the late 90's. Then with SIGs, now with M&Ps. All else being equal I do prefer a button to a lever, and I prefer reversible to ambi. I have seen people drop mags out of guns with ambi levers ... again, it's a personal fit thing.
(2) You're still getting defensive with all the "same can be said about other brands" stuff. If you have some personal negative experience with other brands, certainly you can post it. But if you're just repeating what you've heard on the 'net because you want to point out that the HK45 isn't the only gun with fleas, you're not adding to the conversation.
Just because some people have problems with it and/or don't like it doesn't mean the HK45 is a bad gun.
Necro
Is the HK45 still king?
I do like the glocks and loved theG21sf I once owned and jeez you can pretty much buy two glocks to one HK but quality build and testing comes at a price I guess.
ahh who am I trying to kid anyways? Im just a dude that shoots rec and puts a few hun to maybe 1k a year through my pistols a year.. Lol.
The HK45 is has got my goat for a few years now though. I need to shoot one.
After carrying an M&P45 for all of 2011, my thoughts remain exactly the same as what I wrote in post #45 of this thread on pg 3--that the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex parts is the best modern .45 ACP handgun to replace a 1911. If you are a Glock shooter with a large hand, the 4th Gen G21 is worth looking at. Larry Vickers has conclusively proved the efficacy of the HK45, however I am not a huge fan of the trigger, cost, and availability of accessories.
Necro
Is the HK45 still king?
It's not bad. The first HK pistol I could tollerate. I carried the M&P for a year or so. But the 45 that I shoot best is the FNP 45.
I just picked it up and was right at home instantly.
Doc Safari
12-12-11, 12:55
After carrying an M&P45 for all of 2011, my thoughts remain exactly the same as what I wrote in post #45 of this thread on pg 3--that the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex parts is the best modern .45 ACP handgun to replace a 1911.
I am new to the M&P. I just started considering the purchase of one recently.
Could you explain briefly the Apex parts and why they are necessary or desirable?
The factory trigger is horrible.
Phillygunguy
12-12-11, 16:31
After carrying an M&P45 for all of 2011, my thoughts remain exactly the same as what I wrote in post #45 of this thread on pg 3--that the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex parts is the best modern .45 ACP handgun to replace a 1911. If you are a Glock shooter with a large hand, the 4th Gen G21 is worth looking at. Larry Vickers has conclusively proved the efficacy of the HK45, however I am not a huge fan of the trigger, cost, and availability of accessories.
Is S&W doing anything about the magazine springs? there are too many people on here my self included that had too many issues with them being bent and mag followers being stuck
guy jackson
12-12-11, 19:33
I attended an S&W M&P armorers class in the spring of 2011.they readily admitted a problem although they said they had been unable to duplicate the problem at the factory.The new (improved !?!) version is marked with a green paint at the follower end of the spring(there seem to be red,purple and black paint on earlier mags).I had a stoppage twice due to the springs and the good news is Smith replaced 19 or 20 for me as soon as I asked.No problem at all with the service.I purchased several as well and as I recall the price was very reasonable.
I own the HK45 and the M&P 40 and 9. Like others, I like them all. But there is something about the subtle quality of the HK that is amazing. The one outstanding feature of the gun is the way it feeds. Smooth as silk. You can just tell be the ease at which it feeds, reliable is incredible.
If you haven't shot the FN 45, throw that in the mix. Kinda big but is another worthy 45. Good luck
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