View Full Version : Car salesmen - I'm about to blow a lid. Are you stupid? Or do you think I am?
Eurodriver
06-05-13, 22:06
I'm just going to lay the numbers out for you.
2013 Hyundai Elantra Coupe. 8,000 miles. Fully loaded. Great economical car.
$16999 sticker price at a large, local Ford dealership.
6% sales tax
$150 tag/title transfer.
= $18,170 out the door. (in my mind)
I have a valid, standing, written offer from Carmax for $8500 trade in value for my car. I can get this with them regardless if I buy or not.
So I go to the Ford dealership. I know what car I want, I find a salesman, we go on a test drive. He had to do no work. No sales pitch, nothing. We get back and we start looking at numbers.
I gave him the keys to my car and he comes back with a $6500 trade in and $10,600 + tax and tag/title offer. = $11386
I tell him, frustratingly, "Look, I'm tired. I've been looking at cars for weeks. I like this car at this price. I'm willing to pay your sticker price, sales tax, and tag/title fee." I gave him the Carmax appraisal paperwork and I said give me this much for my trade in and we can make a deal right now. (For the record, their sticker price with my trade in value is $9170)
He comes back again with $8000 trade, $10,400 OTD. I'm like dude, where are you pulling these numbers from? Let me see it broken down by cost.
We're going back and forth for about an hour and their "final" offer is $9950. That means I'm still getting less than $8000 for my trade. You have to remember that sales tax is removed from any trade in. So an $8000 car would have $8480 in savings.
I finally just walked out. I couldn't take it anymore. They wouldn't even break down the price to show me where they were coming up with these figures. It was like they were just magically floating numbers out of the air. If they really didn't want to give me $8500 for my car, they can take my carmax appraisal and sell the car to carmax tomorrow for $8500. It would take them 20 minutes.
I mean, what the hell? I'm there offering to buy the HYUNDAI at STICKER price that's been on the lot for almost 4 months and they're still trying to play games with me? How does that work?
theblackknight
06-05-13, 22:15
Car dealership like recruiter, dont like him? Go to next town or hate life for the next 4 years.
Confucious out!
We're going back and forth for about an hour...
There's part of your problem. If I can't close a deal in 10 minutes, I walk.
I'm there offering to buy the HYUNDAI at STICKER price that's been on the lot for almost 4 months and they're still trying to play games with me? How does that work?
They're trying to make as much money as they can on both ends of the deal.
Never pay sticker for a car. Coming from a family who had a couple of dealerships in the distant past, I love going in there and busting their balls.
#1.Wait until the end of year sales
#2. Get best cash price.
#3. have your trade-in appraised
#4. Go back and make final offer
#5. Allow tax, tags, etc..
Done deal or you walk..
OH.. Ditch the cheap Asia cars and go for something like the Ford Focus..
ClearedHot
06-05-13, 22:47
I thought you already stated that you won't be going from a Benz to a Hyundai?
Secondly, if you do end up going with a Hyundai, will you be changing your M4C username to KoreanDriver? :D
theblackknight
06-05-13, 22:57
OH.. Ditch the cheap Asia cars and go for something like the Ford Focus..
How is asian worse then mexican?
GeorgiaBoy
06-05-13, 23:02
How is asian worse then mexican?
Focus are not made in Mexico.
ClearedHot
06-05-13, 23:04
My suggestion would be to bypass the floor salesman and go directly to the new/used car sales manager when buying a car. After all, the sales manager has the final approval and all sales have to go through him anyways.
The salesman's job is to basically size you up/qualify you as a customer. They'll take you on the test drive, go through the motions and eventually wear you down, in order to get you to agree to a price that he pitches.
It's all a game, it's all scripted and every car dealership does it. Tell them you've worked in car sales before, you know the game and watch their attitude change instantly.
Don Robison
06-05-13, 23:16
How is asian worse then mexican?
The Focus is built in Wayne MI, but it does have a number of foreign parts in it.
I don't do car salesmen very well. I do my research and know what I'm willing to pay. I want them to make money, but I don't want to pay for the braces on three of their kids just to have a vehicle to drive.
Our last two have been pretty painless. On the wife's it came down to $100 he wouldn't come down, I wouldn't come up. He throws out "You're not going to lose a great car over $100 are you?" The wife and I look at each other smile and she says "You're not going to lose a great sale of $100 are you?" He knew he had been defeated.
On my truck I told the salesman what I would pay out the door. If you can do it we have a deal. If you can't it's no problem I'll leave now because I don't want to waste either of our time. I was driving off the lot about 15 minutes after their closing time.
Both vehicles were bought on a Friday afternoon close to closing time and we had a PAL check and cash in hand.
steyrman13
06-05-13, 23:16
My suggestion would be to bypass the floor salesman and go directly to the new/used car sales manager when buying a car. After all, the sales manager has the final approval and all sales have to go through him anyways.
The salesman's job is to basically size you up/qualify you as a customer. They'll take you on the test drive, go through the motions and eventually wear you down, in order to get you to agree to a price that he pitches.
It's all a game, it's all scripted and every car dealership does it. Tell them you've worked in car sales before, you know the game and watch their attitude change instantly.
This and also bring a print out of competitive prices INCLUDING private party.... You can't help it the dealer has overhead and PP does not. I used this to get 1900 over trade in value/appraisal value and 4k off sticker on a 20k vehicle
The dealer "lost" 1700 on the projected needed sale price and gave what I got offered from private buyers
Also, NEVER tell them the actual bottom dollar you want to pay. Tell then your bottom dollar is about 500 or so less than you actually are willing to pay because then they feel like they "won" when they talk you up $500 but you can even save 500 if they say OK ;)
I've bought my last two cars on July 4th. It seems on those days the "B" team is playing and I've beaten them up pretty bad both times.
I think that each car dealership has a different mindset about how it treats customers. It has been said that Asian car dealerships are more difficult to deal with than others. But I have had crap experience with domestic ones too.
My recent Acura purchase was via internet sales, and I had to wade through mud to locate a sensible dealership. When I did, I was able to
negotiate a fair deal.
Like others here, I lack the time, inclination, or personality to allow a salesman to treat me like a chump. It's one step below being punked out.
My last experience at a used car lot I spent two hours getting them to stop ****ing around playing "three card monte" with the numbers and I finally got them to what I considered a "fair deal" that I was willing to pay.
The salesman took the paperwork in for "approval" and brought it back so we could finalize the deal. They added a $1,000 "service charge."
Are you ****ing kidding me? Does that ever actually work on anyone?
Didn't say a word, just got up and told my wife we were leaving. Ended up getting a better vehicle at about $1,000 less than what I was willing to pay.
My best advice is buy a car before you NEED to buy it.
ClearedHot
06-06-13, 00:06
Another thing to remember is, there is ALWAYS room to negotiate when it comes to price. A lot of dealers will have a "best price guarantee" which states you're getting the best deal possible and they can't/won't negotiate. They'll say stuff like "if I sold this car to you at that price (below invoice) I'd be losing money." Don't believe it.
Dealerships can and often do sell cars for well below invoice. Every car manufacturer will give the dealership a kickback for each car they sell. For example, Mercedes Benz will give each dealership up to 12%. Meaning, you can buy a brand new Mercedes for 12% BELOW dealer invoice. Most people never realize how much money is being left on the table.
Years ago, my friend's wife was the finance manager for a large dealership and gave us some intel on their operations. After learning how the stealerships do business, I never paid sticker price on a new car again. :D
I've had weird experiences with salesman. Its either been fantastic or completely horrible.
The guy that sold me my Subie didn't **** around, showed me what they gave to original owner in trade and sold me the car for 5k less than sticker within 10 minutes.
Last time I went to a dealership I was helping my brother in law buy a car. The salesman called me a liar and told my bro in law that his 250-300 a month car payment that he wanted was "A cell phone payment, not a car payment". I swear we almost beat the shit out of him at his cubicle.
It's good that you are not letting them play **** **** games.
Go the email route. Never give your phone number. Build you car online. Get screaming deal. Go pick up car. Never have to talk to salesman.
Great article:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but the dealer you're buying the new car at can generally afford to offer you slightly less on your trade-in than whatever your best offer is because they know you get the sales tax benefit of being able to take the trade-in off the purchase price of the new car, which depending on where you live and the price of the two vehicles, could be a significant difference.
i.e., In a place with 5% sales tax, the difference between paying sales tax on the $18k car or just on the $10k remainder after an $8k trade-in, amounts to $400.
I basically tell them what I am willing to pay, let them know I have done my HW (bring in Edmunds or other "invoice" work), and then sit and wait. If they try and play games I just remind them of what my "bottom line" is and I just sit there drinking their soda and eating their cookies. Eventually they come around.
I've had a few experiences where their best price beat what I was willing to pay and so that deal closed fast.
Don't look stupid. Look prepared and informed.
----
Usually they ask what you want your payments to be. Instead, concentrate on the vehicle's cost and your trade-in, if any. Some folks work on the payment amount first and sometimes don't know how much they paid for the car.
Women, minorities, and young adults as a group are preyed upon in dealerships.
Dealer add-ons are a trap. I noticed that some dealerships will post prices on-line but omit the add-ons amount from the stated price. Some will list a vehicle which has been sold. Sorry. Our mistake.
I view the add-ons as overpriced and try to avoid them.
Just go back and ask to speak with the manager.
Eurodriver
06-06-13, 07:00
I'm debating between this Hyundai and a 2012 V6 (305hp) Mustang w 6000 miles. Mustang is $2300 more.
Hyundai is bigger with longer warranty and gas mileage.
Mustang is fast, American, but screams redneck
brickboy240
06-06-13, 07:30
I'd skip the Korean cars and Fords and look at Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas.
...unless you love paying repairman and having less at re-sale time.
And yes, car salesmen are the absolute worst.
-brickboy240
I have not had bad experiences with salesmen. Finance managers on the other hand...
Since you were willing to pay top dollar sticker price, why didn't you just ask ok, I like it but what is the best price you can do?
Let's say all he did was round it down to $18K. then just say ok, let's do it. Follow me to CarMax so I can drop my car unless you want to match their price, then I'll bring you back here and we're done.
I don't understand why you care where the money comes from. Maybe they didn't want to hassle with your car. ... You say CarMax would give them the same they offer you, but is that correct? CarMax offers change every week and they may have a policy to not offer those prices to dealers.
I understand the whole car dealer ordeal but it seems like in your case there was no issue because you were willing to pay full price anyway. They just didn't want your old car.
If they really didn't want to give me $8500 for my car, they can take my carmax appraisal and sell the car to carmax tomorrow for $8500. It would take them 20 minutes.
I don't get it. Why don't you just sell the car to CarMax or sell it locally, negotiate the best price on the Hyundai, and be done with it?
Trying to parse what car salesman (more likely his sales manager) or a car dealership is thinking is very difficult. It varies from time of month, time of year, locale, competition, inventory (new and used), current dealer kickback programs, interest rates on floor planning etc....
militarymoron
06-06-13, 09:01
when i bought my car in march, i took our old car to carmax for a quote. i then asked the dealer what my trade-in value was (without telling them what carmax offered me). if it was less, i was just going to sell it to carmax. turned out to be exactly the same, so i just traded it in. if i had the patience and inclination, i could have got a bit more by selling our old car to a private party, but just didn't want to deal with it.
the dealer will try to make their money - either from the price or trade-in value, so i try to keep them separate and negotiate the price without trade-in.
I worked for a few upper end dealerships in my high school/college days (Ferrari, Audi, BMW, Subaru & Toyota). I soaked up every aspect of how dealerships conduct business.
The ways in which a person can be taken advantage of in buying a car are numerous. Usually involve wearing you down to the point you just want to leave out of frustration- most people will just leave with the car and not as good of a deal as they COULD get as they do not want to go through the motions again with some other slimeball/dealership. The dealers know this.
If you don't do your due dilligence you WILL get taken.
The best trick I have in my kit; beyond taking a hardline on my bottom line and never nudging a bit- is to bring cash, cold hard cash, and set it down in front of them- the exact amount I am willing to pay for the vehicle I want. I say- "do you want to make this sale today or should I take my money to __X__ dealership and get __X___ vehicle on their lot (Always research the dealerships main competition in town and the vehicles they have on their lot you are interested in)?
You might be surprised how quick the salesmen wants to make the deal and get his cash on the spot commission- in most cases anyways.
NEVER EVER show any frustration, never show any weakness, always maintain a calm & cool demeanor and never give into any BS "protective Undercoating", "lot fee", "Service Fee" etc- that is all fluff.
Set a predetermined duration time you are willing to negotiate and if they aren't playing ball with you in that time frame, say not a word to the salsemen- get up walk out and let the manger know why they didn't sell a car to you- plenty of dealerships and cars out there; might take some time/work but eventually you will get a deal that suits you.
Treat buying a car like a game of chess or poker.
Hope that helps.
Another note- Hyundai, whilst coming a long way since their inception; have terrible resale value and do not get the MPG they claim. They are cheap in too many ways.
Get a Toyota or a Honda. Or if American is your thing, go the Lincoln route.
Good luck.
Treat buying a car like a game of chess or poker.
Realistically what can a person get off on a car price. Let's say the Build a Toyota web price is $30K and the dealer has that car on the lot. Maybe it's got an extra item or missing an item but let's say the dealer also has a $30K match.
what can you realistically expect to get. What is a cash in hand, best case scenario?
brickboy240
06-06-13, 11:10
From my experiences with European cars (..and I have owned plenty from various makers) if you are going from a European car to a Korean car or a Ford...you will be VERY disappointed in the overall build quality.
Going to a Toyota, Nissan or Honda (or their luxury marks) will be much less of a shock...or step down if you may.
-brickboy240
Realistically what can a person get off on a car price. Let's say the Build a Toyota web price is $30K and the dealer has that car on the lot. Maybe it's got an extra item or missing an item but let's say the dealer also has a $30K match.
what can you realistically expect to get. What is a cash in hand, best case scenario?
Lot's of variables go into in this- A LOT; so it is really hard to give an outline of what one can expect across the board.
Specific region, time of year, present rate of sales for the dealership, economy (As in the state of the US economy at the time), size of dealer, vehicle particulars, current trends in vehicle sales, the salseman you get- etc, etc, etc...
Paying cash on my last vehicle I paid just about $7K-$9K under the invoice price from memory. 2008 Toyota 4runner SR5 4WD FULLY LOADED. I think it had 5K miles or thereabouts- this was in early 2009.
I forget the exact figures and don't have the paperwork in front of me at the moment, but it was approx $30K-ish, and I got it for approx $22K-ish out the door. Cash.
Granted this was during a dry spell for car sales (And the economy in general) and cars were not driving off of the lot as they had in the past- it was very good timing/planning on my part.
I just looked up the current KBB value (If I sold it today) and it is quite close to what I paid for it originally. $21,988.00 In excellent condition- per KBB online.
If the dealer is selling them like hot cakes, they are less apt to make you a deal- obviously. If they really need to move some vehicles, you can own them.
My advice to anyone would be to plan WAY ahead on car purchases (ANy large purchases) and save the cash up front- when the timing is right, negotiate the best deal you can.
Cash on the barrelhead to a dealership in rough times will net you a great deal everytime.
If you really want to get a great deal and jhave the means or creativity to make it work. Take cash in hand and buy (2) vehicles at one time- during a rough spot for a dealership. You will get an amazing deal.
brickboy240
06-06-13, 11:45
Buying a brand new car is a total rip off.
Cars are not a good place to put tons of money, anyways.
Buy used...pay as little as you can...take really good care of it (doing as much yourself as possible) and drive the thing as long as you possibly can.
That has been my policy. Let other morons blow tens of thousands on cars....it is a waste of money if you ask me.
Car dealers hate people like me...I work for me...not them.
-brickboy240
Eurodriver
06-06-13, 12:56
2012 Mustang
5060 miles
Carmax. Bing, bang done. No hassles.
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o648/GuyinfL/IMG_20130606_134445_661_zps4a7951f9.jpg
2012 Mustang
5060 miles
Carmax. Bing, bang done. No hassles.
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o648/GuyinfL/IMG_20130606_134445_661_zps4a7951f9.jpg
I'm starting to realize that is the way to do things.
Eurodriver
06-06-13, 13:30
I'm starting to realize that is the way to do things.
They pressured me hard for their ~$1700 extended warranty, and the interest rates they offered weren't the greatest. (Was offered 1.99% at a local credit union. They hit me with 5.2%) But other than that I see absolutely no reason why I won't be back with Carmax every single time. Its a completely different experience.
Awesome. Now go get it tuned to take of the limiter.
2012 Mustang
5060 miles
Carmax. Bing, bang done. No hassles.
http://static.thecia.com.au/reviews/j/joe-dirt-1.jpg
SomeOtherGuy
06-06-13, 16:58
Go the email route. Never give your phone number. Build you car online. Get screaming deal. Go pick up car. Never have to talk to salesman.
That's what I did this spring. Got the car I wanted for a few hundred over invoice (not MSRP). No haggling involved, no putting up with BS, just had a quoted price by contacting dealer via their website. Drove the car, liked it, finished the transaction.
Some dealers are perpetually stupid. I think Toyota makes good cars, but their local dealership here was a den of sleaze until recently, when they advanced into merely being a den of useless stupidity. I've considered Toyota in my last FIVE new car purchases, and haven't bought one any of those times. The dealer is too awful.
http://static.thecia.com.au/reviews/j/joe-dirt-1.jpg
Yeah, it's got a Hemi!
Yeah, I had one of those moments too. I was ready to pull the trigger on a used WRX, had the cash all set aside, and I've only been dreaming about one of those since I've been old enough to appreciate any engineered object.
I gave up after the first of two Scooby dealerships in town tried to sell me a two-year old used one with what felt like a broken flywheel or worn out clutch for about $500 under MSRP of a new one;
and the second refused to drop below $20k on one I was visually able to tell had been knocked out of alignment when it had been tank-slapper curbed - which they also refused to acknowledge.
I've taken to picking up absolute hoopdies, as I don't care if a <$2000 car has minor issues; but can't stand to think that I'd pay over ten large for a vehicle that would have any mechanical issues whatsoever. Making a car isn't all that hard, and there is plenty of profit margin in doing it if there is any kind of competent engineering staff; it blows me away that people will pay twenty thousand dollars for a brand new GM Sonic or anything like that - knowing idiots will overpay for cars is WHY dealerships can behave like unrequited assholes, so I don't bother. Same deal with no shame whatsoever in test driving a car just to see how it behaves dynamically - I now know that Subaru needs to put a 6-speed manual into the WRX, or it's never worth buying for me; the MazdaSpeed3 is all engine, and literally nothing else; and the Genesis Coupe has the worst thought out drivetrain of any supposed sports car out currently. I'll find out through them, and if they can't make an offer that competes with the Credit Union Auto Sales or Carmax, then that's too bad for them. I'll pay more for something that major because buying something that expensive is as much about the business relationship with the cats selling the thing... but conversely if the dealership has done NOTHING to improve my image of them at any point in time, I won't bother.
Paying cash on my last vehicle I paid just about $7K-$9K under the invoice price from memory. 2008 Toyota 4runner SR5 4WD FULLY LOADED. I think it had 5K miles or thereabouts- this was in early 2009.
That does sound like a good deal. I have a price range I want to buy in and to be honest I would not have thought that much off was possible. I thought you would say maybe $3K was a great deal.
I've been pretty much doing the Carmax thing or private sale the last three cars I've had and I've still got two of them.
I am currently torn between another Tacoma but would actually like a 4runner.
When you find a car on a dealer lot that has let's say 5K-8K miles. How do you find out exactly what it was supposed to sell for? I assume they remove the original stickers.
Or I guess, what is the most realistic and reliable cost analysis service these days. Isn't there some means to tie the VIN to a list of components it is supposed to have as well? I know I used to get little black NADA books from dealer friends. My credit union said they will cost out anything for me but I get mixed up on the correct criteria.
Is there a failsafe way to know you have all the correct data?
That's what I did this spring. Got the car I wanted for a few hundred over invoice (not MSRP). No haggling involved, no putting up with BS, just had a quoted price by contacting dealer via their website. Drove the car, liked it, finished the transaction.
Some dealers are perpetually stupid. I think Toyota makes good cars, but their local dealership here was a den of sleaze until recently, when they advanced into merely being a den of useless stupidity. I've considered Toyota in my last FIVE new car purchases, and haven't bought one any of those times. The dealer is too awful.
The last three vehicles I've bought have been online builds. You get exactly what you want, you walk in with a price and you walk out without all the riggamaroe. It might be a little more expensive, but my time and patience is worth it to me.
So when you guys do these online builds is that the price you pay? Or do you somehow pay less? I'm not quite following this.
Let's say I go to Toyoto.com. Build a $30K car. What exactly happens next?
SomeOtherGuy
06-06-13, 22:01
So when you guys do these online builds is that the price you pay? Or do you somehow pay less? I'm not quite following this.
Let's say I go to Toyoto.com. Build a $30K car. What exactly happens next?
When I've done it I just go the dealer's website (not the manufacturer), go to the "get a quote" or whatever it's called on a given website, and type up a little email with the model and options I'm looking for. In anywhere from 15 minutes to 2-3 days (and that's a good initial sign of how internet focused a dealer is, btw) I get a reply email. Often a series with some form letter crap in the first one or two, then finally an email saying "I have xyz car with these options, sticker $_, your price $__, please call me to schedule a test drive." The "your price" is usually decently below sticker, and includes any rebates/incentives they have going at the moment. For the Honda I ended up buying it was basically the same as the Edmunds.com "true market value" price. To me, that's the best price you're going to easily get - people who want to go in with $20k in cash an hour before closing on the last day of the month may do better, but probably not by a whole lot. This also makes it much easier to decide which car you want based on actual cost rather than sticker, without having to try and negotiate for an hour at each dealership.
Eurodriver
06-06-13, 22:04
When I've done it I just go the dealer's website (not the manufacturer), go to the "get a quote" or whatever it's called on a given website, and type up a little email with the model and options I'm looking for. In anywhere from 15 minutes to 2-3 days (and that's a good initial sign of how internet focused a dealer is, btw) I get a reply email. Often a series with some form letter crap in the first one or two, then finally an email saying "I have xyz car with these options, sticker $_, your price $__, please call me to schedule a test drive." The "your price" is usually decently below sticker, and includes any rebates/incentives they have going at the moment. For the Honda I ended up buying it was basically the same as the Edmunds.com "true market value" price. To me, that's the best price you're going to easily get - people who want to go in with $20k in cash an hour before closing on the last day of the month may do better, but probably not by a whole lot. This also makes it much easier to decide which car you want based on actual cost rather than sticker, without having to try and negotiate for an hour at each dealership.
BTDT - They give me "your price" which we will say is $20,000.
The "out the door" price usually ends up being $26,000 when its all said and done.
Has that ever happened?
SomeOtherGuy
06-06-13, 22:14
BTDT - They give me "your price" which we will say is $20,000.
The "out the door" price usually ends up being $26,000 when its all said and done.
Has that ever happened?
It probably varies by dealer, and maybe also by how they size you up when you're there. The dealer I bought from was no-BS, the email quote had every item listed including tax and fees, there was nothing not disclosed that I had to pay to get the car. Other dealers I asked for quotes also seemed to give me complete quotes, but obviously I didn't follow through and buy from any of the others so I don't know for absolute certain. This is in a smaller city in Michigan where the sleaze factor may be lower than in some other areas.
Thanks for the info... I need to look into some of these possibilities.
ShortytheFirefighter
06-07-13, 11:34
Awesome. Now go get it tuned to take of the limiter.
Have they gotten that driveshaft issue fixed on them? I seem to recall a number of them puking the driveshaft at high speeds or on the dyno.
buckshot1220
06-07-13, 23:15
#1.Wait until the end of year sales
#2. Get best cash price.
#3. have your trade-in appraised
#4. Go back and make final offer
#5. Allow tax, tags, etc..
Done deal or you walk..
OH.. Ditch the cheap Asia cars and go for something like the Ford Focus..
Not always true, dealers are allowed to make what is called "reserve" on the financed amount (in 47 or 48 states currently) so a cash deal usually equates to a more significant loss, which is less room to work on the front end of the deal. I used to cringe when people came in looking to pay cash.
Of note, many rebates are only available when the new vehicle is financed through a certain bank like Ally or Ford Motor Credit. Insisting on paying cash or bringing your own credit union to the table may cost you more. I once watched a couple I was working with lose $2,500 in rebates because they insisted on giving me a bank check (cash). Even after breaking everything down and explaining to them to hold the note for 90 days and then pay it off (which would've accrued minimal interest) but still would've qual'd them for the rebate and the dealer wouldn't get a reserve chargeback, nope. They:confused: decided to overpay.
domestique
06-07-13, 23:21
+1 to SomeOtherGuy
I do all my car dealings online. Most dealerships have online sales associates. I make my offer online and get a quote from them in black and white.
As much as I HATE shopping for cars/trucks this is the only way I will conduct business. My last SUV took a total of a little over an hour and that was with a 15 minute test drive and waiting for final detailing to be done.
DocHolliday01
06-08-13, 09:12
I'd skip the Korean cars and Fords and look at Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas.
...unless you love paying repairman and having less at re-sale time.
And yes, car salesmen are the absolute worst.
-brickboy240
Where in the hell do people get this "Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas are far superior to GM's, Ford and Dodge?" I have a 08 Sierra All-Terrain that has 85k miles on it and has gotten 21mpg or more on the highway on numerous occasions. I got 70k miles out of the original tires, 80k+ on the front brakes. My Uncle on the other hand has a crew cab Nissan Titan that has never gotten better than 15mpg on the highway. It has been a pretty decent truck but in this day and age that fuel mileage is unacceptable. Friend of mine also has a crew cab Titan that gets as bad or worse mileage. Another friend has a year old Ram that gets 18-19mpg as well. So again tell me what Toyota, Nissan, and Honda has to offer that Ford, GM, and Dodge don't? Warranty, Fuel Mileage, Dependability, Space, better options, Looks(subjective)?
My suggestion would be to bypass the floor salesman and go directly to the new/used car sales manager when buying a car. After all, the sales manager has the final approval and all sales have to go through him anyways.
The salesman's job is to basically size you up/qualify you as a customer. They'll take you on the test drive, go through the motions and eventually wear you down, in order to get you to agree to a price that he pitches.
It's all a game, it's all scripted and every car dealership does it. Tell them you've worked in car sales before, you know the game and watch their attitude change instantly.
The sales manager isn't there to give final say. The salesman already knows what the car has to sell for to make his commission. The sales manager is only there to step in to take over for a tired, worn salesman to deal with a now tired and worn customer. The sales manager is just fresh troops sent into the fray
Carmaxx isnt guaranteed until they actually look at the car then adjust accordingly. In a way its also a gimick. They got you in the door and thats 50% of the work. KBB is BS. It shows retarded prices on the more popular cars. A few years ago i ran my buddy's car through KBB....a 94 Camry 4cyl auto 400k miles, obviously not in good condition but still very drivable. KBB came back with a $5k trade in price.
OP what kind of car are you trying to trade? I can tell you what they go for at the auctions in your area.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
mchildress
06-08-13, 11:44
A lot of good info mentioned. Something else that really kills the dealer's wiggle room and is simple. A printed sales add from a news paper of the vehicle you want and price. Show it to them and ask can you beat this price?
MountainRaven
06-08-13, 12:43
Where in the hell do people get this "Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas are far superior to GM's, Ford and Dodge?" I have a 08 Sierra All-Terrain that has 85k miles on it and has gotten 21mpg or more on the highway on numerous occasions. I got 70k miles out of the original tires, 80k+ on the front brakes. My Uncle on the other hand has a crew cab Nissan Titan that has never gotten better than 15mpg on the highway. It has been a pretty decent truck but in this day and age that fuel mileage is unacceptable. Friend of mine also has a crew cab Titan that gets as bad or worse mileage. Another friend has a year old Ram that gets 18-19mpg as well. So again tell me what Toyota, Nissan, and Honda has to offer that Ford, GM, and Dodge don't? Warranty, Fuel Mileage, Dependability, Space, better options, Looks(subjective)?
Same reasons, largely, that Colts, KACs, and Noveskes are superior to S&Ws, Bushmasters, and Olys.
But... unlike the ARs, there are some good GMs and Fords. And there are some bad Toyotas, Nissans, and Hondas (not talking about individual lemons or coincidentally delicious lemonade). No good Dodges to the best of my knowledge, though.
Eurodriver
06-08-13, 22:24
Well I've been driving the Mustang for 2.5 days now. Put about 200 miles on it.
Some thoughts:
It is quick. I remember laughing at the old 3.8L V6 mustangs of the '90s as old lady cars. No way. This thing is serious. With 305 HP it has some get-up-and-go to it but, and remember that I've been driving a Mercedes for 4 years, the ride in this thing is smooth. You can definitely feel the road more than in the Mercedes but it absorbs pothole-type-impacts way better than my Benz ever did. Granted, it was only a C-Class, but still. When travelling at freeway speeds if you wiggle the steering wheel the car feels like it hugs the ground left to right. There is no discernable body roll whatsoever. Its absolutely amazing and way more than I expected from a Ford. I also rode in some really nasty weather this evening and never lost traction (even into triple digits - don't kill me - closed course I swear) except when I would purposely dump the clutch mid-turn (again, closed course) Maybe this is due to the Performance Package with the upgraded sway bars, Pirelli tires, and 19" wheels.
...but yeah. About those freeway speeds. I literally filled up at a gas station, got on the interstate, set the cruise at 75mph, went 65 miles, turned around, set the cruise back at 75 and then refilled at the same gas station at the same pump.
Gas mileage was a whopping...wait for it....22.7 mpg. :confused: Its rated at 29mpg? This might be a deal breaker. Hyundai gets 38 freeway and high 20s city.
And wtf? They limited this car to 118? I have pictures of me setting the cruise control in my Benz at 115. It was limited to 133. Apparently the drive shaft disintegrates above 125~ MPH? What the ****?
I can return the car to Carmax for a 100% refund up until Tuesday. Getting a Hyundai would be more economical. I'd save $3000 on the car, 20$ a month in insurance and get double the gas mileage but way less fun to drive.
Maybe I need a BRZ/FRS or something...or just go for the Gusto and get a 5.0L Mustang GT. Shit, there's really no incentive to rock the V6 with this garbage gas mileage.
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o648/GuyinfL/IMG_20130606_134557_967_zps39f839ca.jpg
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o648/GuyinfL/IMG_20130606_134323_623_zps08b94c3d.jpg
ClearedHot
06-08-13, 23:05
Well I've been driving the Mustang for 2.5 days now. Put about 200 miles on it.
Some thoughts:
It is quick. I remember laughing at the old 3.8L V6 mustangs of the '90s as old lady cars. No way. This thing is serious. With 305 HP it has some get-up-and-go to it but, and remember that I've been driving a Mercedes for 4 years, the ride in this thing is smooth. You can definitely feel the road more than in the Mercedes but it absorbs pothole-type-impacts way better than my Benz ever did. Granted, it was only a C-Class, but still. When travelling at freeway speeds if you wiggle the steering wheel the car feels like it hugs the ground left to right. There is no discernable body roll whatsoever. Its absolutely amazing and way more than I expected from a Ford. I also rode in some really nasty weather this evening and never lost traction (even into triple digits - don't kill me - closed course I swear) except when I would purposely dump the clutch mid-turn (again, closed course) Maybe this is due to the Performance Package with the upgraded sway bars, Pirelli tires, and 19" wheels.
...but yeah. About those freeway speeds. I literally filled up at a gas station, got on the interstate, set the cruise at 75mph, went 65 miles, turned around, set the cruise back at 75 and then refilled at the same gas station at the same pump.
Gas mileage was a whopping...wait for it....22.7 mpg. :confused: Its rated at 29mpg? This might be a deal breaker. Hyundai gets 38 freeway and high 20s city.
And wtf? They limited this car to 118? I have pictures of me setting the cruise control in my Benz at 115. It was limited to 133. Apparently the drive shaft disintegrates above 125~ MPH? What the ****?
I can return the car to Carmax for a 100% refund up until Tuesday. Getting a Hyundai would be more economical. I'd save $3000 on the car, 20$ a month in insurance and get double the gas mileage but way less fun to drive.
Maybe I need a BRZ/FRS or something...or just go for the Gusto and get a 5.0L Mustang GT. Shit, there's really no incentive to rock the V6 with this garbage gas mileage.
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o648/GuyinfL/IMG_20130606_134557_967_zps39f839ca.jpg
http://i1336.photobucket.com/albums/o648/GuyinfL/IMG_20130606_134323_623_zps08b94c3d.jpg
That interior looks like something that belongs in a pickup truck. Sounds like you definitely have some buyer remorse with the V6 Mustang. I would just go with a BRZ or Genesis Coupe if you're looking for a RWD sports coupe with decent gas mileage.
I had to drive a last generation 5.0 GT Mustang for a month. All I could think of was how bad the seats sucked. I hope the seats in your newer Mustang have been improved upon.
And wtf? They limited this car to 118? I have pictures of me setting the cruise control in my Benz at 115. It was limited to 133. Apparently the drive shaft disintegrates above 125~ MPH? What the ****?
It has nothing to do with the drive shaft but with the speed rating of the OEM tires.
And wtf? They limited this car to 118? I have pictures of me setting the cruise control in my Benz at 115. It was limited to 133. Apparently the drive shaft disintegrates above 125~ MPH? What the ****?
My guess would be due to the tires but still 118? I've had two seperate 4 banger hondas(one from the 80's and one from the 90's) that would do more then that. I'd expect it to at least be in the 120's if not a tiny bit higher.
Z rated or better for those speeds. I've had my car to 115 without even a shutter with Z rated tires, but other cars shaking like a leaf in the wind at 85 with non Z rated tires.
Speed Rating Miles/Hour Km/Hour
M 81 mph 130 km/h
N 87 mph 140 km/h
P 93 mph 150 km/h
Q 99 mph 160 km/h
R 106 mph 170 km/h
S 112 mph 180 km/h
T 118 mph 190 km/h
U 124 mph 200 km/h
H 130 mph 210 km/h
V 149 mph 240 km/h
W 168 mph 270 km/h
Y 186 mph 300 km/h
Z 149+ mph 240+ km/h
Speed Rating Miles/Hour Km/Hour
M 81 mph 130 km/h
N 87 mph 140 km/h
P 93 mph 150 km/h
Q 99 mph 160 km/h
R 106 mph 170 km/h
S 112 mph 180 km/h
T 118 mph 190 km/h
U 124 mph 200 km/h
H 130 mph 210 km/h
V 149 mph 240 km/h
W 168 mph 270 km/h
Y 186 mph 300 km/h
Z 149+ mph 240+ km/h
I'd rather not walk right up to the edge of a sky scraper if there's another, safer way to do it.;)
Eurodriver
06-09-13, 06:23
It has nothing to do with the drive shaft but with the speed rating of the OEM tires.
No. Google it.
I have Z rated tires, they are Pirelli P Zeros. I can take a pic and show you if you like.
As I said. Google the driveshaft issue. Its all over the internet including videos of guys who have removed the limiter only to see their driveshafts fall apart above 125.
Eurodriver
06-09-13, 06:25
editted
Usually the speed limiter is based on OEM tires. You can reset that easily with a Hypertech programmer, but if you're actually going to go that fast, you'd want Z-rated tires. Probably set you back a lotta money.
You gotta pay to play. The cost of a sporty vehicle like the Mustang is gas mileage. I have a 370Z. It gets 22 mpg if I drive it in a manner consistent with the reason I bought it and I'm pleased that the mileage is that good.
Man my Subaru got 23 mpg on average and I got it above 150 once (on a track).
3 syllables of driving happiness. Su- Ba- Ru.
Go test drive one and tell me I'm wrong.
HackerF15E
06-09-13, 13:24
Where in the hell do people get this "Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas are far superior to GM's, Ford and Dodge?" I have a 08 Sierra All-Terrain that has 85k miles on it
This is sort of like the guys who roll in to M4C and start talking about how great their no-name ARs are by saying, "it hasn't had any problems in over 500 rounds!!"
The measure of the car isn't how it does in the first 100,000 miles, as that is a typical programmed lifespan for a car produced in the last 25 or so years -- it is how it does in the 2nd 100,000 miles. Sometimes even the 3rd or 4th 100,000 miles.
I have a 99 Toyota 4Runner that has only had normal user maintenance (oil, wipers, plugs, tires, brakes, fluids [including transmission fluid change], and a timing belt/water pump at around 100K) in 200,000 miles and is still for all intents just getting broken in. That type of reliability for 4Runners of that age is pretty standard. Older 2nd generation 4Runners are hitting those 300K and 400K numbers without major maintenance (like engine overhauls, etc).
Is it for 13-year-old 200K mile GMs? How about the 300K and 400K GM trucks?
GeorgiaBoy
06-09-13, 13:35
This is sort of like the guys who roll in to M4C and start talking about how great their no-name ARs are by saying, "it hasn't had any problems in over 500 rounds!!"
There is no definitive way to classify Toyotas, Honda, Nissan, etc into a equal comparison with "name brand" AR's like Colt, BCM, DD.
Nor is it possible to classify GM, Ford, Dodge as being equivalent to "no-name" AR's, which I guess means Bushie, Del-Ton, etc.
Where in the hell do people get this "Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas are far superior to GM's, Ford and Dodge?"
Uh..Consumer Reports etc.
I have a 08 Sierra All-Terrain that has 85k miles on it....
"I have a Bushmaster rifle with 3000 rounds through it....."
Uh..Consumer Reports etc...
You mean the same folks who put heavy out riggers on a Suzuki Samurai and wondered why it tipped?
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/PJ-AU599_eyesro_G_20100420153451.jpg
Eurodriver
06-09-13, 20:01
I gotta hand it to Carmax guys.
Today I drove in, told them I wanted my old car back, and within ten minutes had my old title in hand (along with a notarized affidavit stating that Carmax never took posession of my vehicle) a check for my down payment, and my Mercedes car keys.
They asked one time "Why don't you like the car?" I told them the fuel mileage wasn't great (it wasn't) and it made some clunking noises from the driver's side front tire. They said "Alright man." No pushiness. No games. Nothing. They did look at the car but they didn't finger **** it. I returned it with a full tank of gas as I was given it with a full tank of gas but I didn't wash it or anything.
Ten minutes later I was leaving.
Best car buying experience ever and unless I get an absolutely smoking deal every vehicle I buy from the rest of my life will be with CarMax.
Where else can you go and buy a car, put 400 miles on it, and return it 3 days later for a 100% refund no questions asked? And I even got my trade-in back.
I think I might lose about $50-$100 because I will need to print out another title at the DMV and get my car re-registered. Right now the plate would pull up as not having any car registered to it if a cop ran it and I have no registration paperwork with the vehicle. But hell, you can't rent a Ford Mustang for 4 days for $50.
You mean the same folks who put heavy out riggers on a Suzuki Samurai and wondered why it tipped?
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/PJ-AU599_eyesro_G_20100420153451.jpg
More interested in their reliability reports, repair records, and consumer satisfaction surveys.
If the methodology cannot be trusted, neither can the conclusions
If the methodology cannot be trusted, neither can the conclusions
The methodology for evaluating rolling Subarus is different than the methodology for polling owner satisfaction, frequency of repair, and vehicle reliability. Substitute "Edmunds" or "JD Powers" if you prefer.
HackerF15E
06-10-13, 08:58
There is no definitive way to classify Toyotas, Honda, Nissan, etc into a equal comparison with "name brand" AR's like Colt, BCM, DD.
Nor is it possible to classify GM, Ford, Dodge as being equivalent to "no-name" AR's, which I guess means Bushie, Del-Ton, etc.
That actually wasn't my point at all; what I was trying to say is that 85,000 miles is not even close to a sufficient amount of use to make legitimate comparisons between vehicle brands regarding quality and durability.
Just as 500 or 1000 rounds down the tube isn't for a firearm.
Had nothing to do with making similies between "tier classifications" of brands of firearms and brands of vehicles.
If they are willing to rig the tests to get the results they want, they'll rig their polls. Sorry, but CR has no credibility
HackerF15E
06-10-13, 09:00
The methodology for evaluating rolling Subarus...
That's a Suzuki!
If they are willing to rig the tests to get the results they want, they'll rig their polls. Sorry, but CR has no credibility
With you.
You mean the same folks who put heavy out riggers on a Suzuki Samurai and wondered why it tipped?
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/PJ-AU599_eyesro_G_20100420153451.jpg
No expert here by any means, but if they put the same amount of weight on each side... how is that affecting it's ability to tip?
Gutshot John
06-10-13, 10:04
No expert here by any means, but if they put the same amount of weight on each side... how is that affecting it's ability to tip?
Yep, actually weight that's a lever would probably add to the stabilization as you're lowering the center of gravity.
Yep, actually weight that's a lever would probably add to the stabilization as you're lowering the center of gravity.
Kind of what I was wondering also..
As for Carmax. They have a great system set up.
Sadly the last time I went in there I had a bad experience with lack of service. So I went to another lot and purchased my car.
No expert here by any means, but if they put the same amount of weight on each side... how is that affecting it's ability to tip?
Yep, actually weight that's a lever would probably add to the stabilization as you're lowering the center of gravity.
Yeh, perhaps the methodology isn't flawed but the understanding of it is...
MountainRaven
06-10-13, 11:26
Yeh, perhaps the methodology isn't flawed but the understanding of it is...
Hey, they could pull the wings off and then the car will flip onto its side or roll over, injuring or killing the test driver. Then CR won't be able to test any trucks or SUVs (or any other cars)!
:sarcastic:
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