View Full Version : Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily
"Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order
So, if I'm reading this correctly, Verizon was ordered to turn over data on all telephone calls between April 25 and July 19.
ClearedHot
06-05-13, 22:55
AT&T has been at it for years. It would be safe to assume all electronic comms are being monitored.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.
GeorgiaBoy
06-06-13, 01:18
The left is quite upset about this.
But they are still trying to dismiss all the scandals that don't directly involve THEM.
Alaskapopo
06-06-13, 02:11
"Revealed: NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order
So, if I'm reading this correctly, Verizon was ordered to turn over data on all telephone calls between April 25 and July 19.
This is disturbing.
Pat
Well I guess if I get "disappeared" you guys will know why.
This is ridiculous.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
GeorgiaBoy
06-06-13, 02:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM
This guy warned about this 7 months ago.
polymorpheous
06-06-13, 03:00
Tyrants.
My guess is that the NSA has done what it pleased for decades.
Recently I read a spook equipment catalog for l.e. agencies. They can buy stuff that pulls call data from the air so to speak and not just data from cell towers. My wife was a grant writer, and I had access to some neat literature that vendors sent in. Spooky. Of course, we all know that cell phones offer no privacy.
Eurodriver
06-06-13, 04:42
"If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about"
idiots.
"If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about"
idiots.
I like the "It's for your safety" line better.
Dam gubment
If it is being transmitted it is being monitored - the internet, cell phones, txt, email, WiFi, all of it. It has been happening for some years now. It started under Clinton and continues to this day.
Of course, why would an innocent person have anything to fear?...
Oh, and Ron Paul is a kook, and possibly a racist.
and the FBI demands software be made "listenable"
http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/now-fbi-wants-back-door-to-all-software/
This is disturbing.
Pat
But - "If you've done nothing wrong, then you should have nothing to fear or hide" - right? Sort of like DNA testing upon arrest.
john
MountainRaven
06-06-13, 09:31
But - "If you've done nothing wrong, then you should have nothing to fear or hide" - right? Sort of like DNA testing upon arrest.
john
Just don't stand too close to some guy you've never met who is actually a key leadership member of an obscure white supremacist terror organization when they decide to Hellfire his (or her) ass....
This is disturbing.
Pat
Your above statement isn't congruent with your stance/typical posts on these subjects Pat.
Why would you care if NSA is monitoring your calls/transmissions- it will help solve crime- it's just another tool for LEO's to use to catch bad guys...
You don't have anything to hide now do you?
So what disturbs you about this specifically?
Mining all of the citizens electronic information will inevitably lead to higher arrest rates for criminal activity- so why are you AGAINST this, but FOR just about every other type of intrusive intiative similar to this?
-In case you think I am being snarky or it comes off that way over the interwebs- I am not, I am being dead serious based on your posts/stance in the past regarding these types of infringments of our rights; and I mean no disrespect whatsoever.
Thanks.
But - "If you've done nothing wrong, then you should have nothing to fear or hide" - right? Sort of like DNA testing upon arrest.
john
Lol Bam!
This is disturbing.
Pat
I knew we'd agree on something someday. ;)
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-06-13, 11:03
This is disturbing.
Pat
Pat,
Respectfully, Where do you draw the line? While more expansive than the DNA it is not as intrusive? What attributes do you look at to evaluate these things?
Regards
SWATcop556
06-06-13, 11:17
Even with disclaimers people need to tread very carefully. No bullshit.
An investigative journalist needs to say something over his cell on every call he makes that's likely to get a hit and record how long it takes before the FBI shows up at his doorstep...
This is disturbing.
Pat
What's the difference between this and DNA?
These things happen, boys.
i thought everyone assumed the cia and nsa have access to everything?
why else would they be building this thing in utah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
i thought everyone assumed the cia and nsa have access to everything?
why else would they be building this thing in utah?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
Why do we keep financing this crap..... yes that is a rhetorical question.
But hey its 1984 in turn key form so what the hell.
brickboy240
06-06-13, 12:06
Is there any doubt that America has become a high tech police state?
The tinfoil hat people that used to crow about this...well...they really don't look so crazy anymore.
-brickboy240
i thought everyone assumed the cia and nsa have access to everything?
I live under that assumption. :mad:
I live under that assumption. :mad:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/
even wired magazine knew about this
Is there any doubt that America has become a high tech police state?
The tinfoil hat people that used to crow about this...well...they really don't look so crazy anymore.
-brickboy240
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
no they still do
FlyingHunter
06-06-13, 12:35
Well let's see...the govt is taking over healthcare, banking my DNA, tracking every computer keystroke, monitoring every one of my phone calls...perhaps I shall surrender the only thing they haven't taken...
a stool sample.
Well let's see...the govt is taking over healthcare, banking my DNA, tracking every computer keystroke, monitoring every one of my phone calls...perhaps I shall surrender the only thing they haven't taken...
a stool sample.
Stop giving them ideas :nono:
:D
Well let's see...the govt is taking over healthcare, banking my DNA, tracking every computer keystroke, monitoring every one of my phone calls...perhaps I shall surrender the only thing they haven't taken...
a stool sample.
You will like this too.... just imagine this is radio wave motion monitoring compared to the pong computer game.
http://www.livescience.com/37187-gesture-detection-system-uses-wifi.html
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/03/researchers-use-wifi-radio-waves-to-see-through-walls/
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-06-13, 13:19
a stool sample.
Give it some velocity and give it monkey style...
Pat,
Respectfully, Where do you draw the line? While more expansive than the DNA it is not as intrusive? What attributes do you look at to evaluate these things?
Regards
Even with disclaimers people need to tread very carefully. No bullshit.
The ignore list makes it so I don't see posts from certain people, right? We all might as well add Pat to our ignore lists because the GD has turned into the "Don't piss of Pat forum". I really value his input all over the forum but his 'eclectic' view of civil rights coupled with, to be perfectly frank, what I consider to be thin skin and weak argument skill just leads to issues. No one relies on the Strawman more than Pat since Dorthy.
I try to be civil and set an example of a polite way to engage him and that doesn't seem to be enough.
I'd would be nice if the ignore list also hid posts that quote the ignored person.
Doc Safari
06-06-13, 13:21
Is there any doubt that America has become a high tech police state?
The tinfoil hat people that used to crow about this...well...they really don't look so crazy anymore.
-brickboy240
LOL. But the part about DHS buying billions of rounds of ammo for something sinister is still tinfoil hat stuff right? :lol:
I dont' know which is sadder: that a nutcase like Alex Jones is actually beginning to sound like a prophet, or the fact that still 80% of the American public won't care.
I guess the second one is sadder, come to think of it.
I dont' know which is sadder: that a nutcase like Alex Jones is actually beginning to sound like a prophet, or the fact that still 80% of the American public won't care.
The 9/11 inside job conspiracy theory alone makes me not take him seriously. There's a difference in having a few facts and him just making shit up.
SWATcop556
06-06-13, 13:26
The ignore list makes it so I don't see posts from certain people, right? We all might as well add Pat to our ignore lists because the GD has turned into the "Don't piss of Pat forum". I really value his input all over the forum but his 'eclectic' view of civil rights coupled with, to be perfectly frank, what I consider to be thin skin and weak argument skill just leads to issues. No one relies on the Strawman more than Pat since Dorthy.
I try to be civil and set an example of a polite way to engage him and that doesn't seem to be enough.
I'd would be nice if the ignore list also hid posts that quote the ignored person.
It was a general warning. No one specific was mentioned. No one is getting special treatment and Pat had taken his lumps with everyone else that can't keep from stepping on their dick in golf spikes.
Voodoochild
06-06-13, 13:26
Everyone needs to tread carefully in here. It has been explained once already no more warnings will be given. :nono:
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-06-13, 13:28
It was a general warning. No one specific was mentioned. No one is getting special treatment and Pat had taken his lumps with everyone else that can't keep from stepping on their dick in golf spikes.
I'll try to wear the new plastic spikes that don't mark up greens or dicks.
Doc Safari
06-06-13, 13:29
The 9/11 inside job conspiracy theory alone makes me not take him seriously. There's a difference in having a few facts and him just making shit up.
I was being facetious. Still, Glenn Beck is looking smarter all the time.
Doc Safari
06-06-13, 13:30
Well let's see...the govt is taking over healthcare, banking my DNA, tracking every computer keystroke, monitoring every one of my phone calls...perhaps I shall surrender the only thing they haven't taken...
a stool sample.
I'm sure when the truth comes out about the other things they're doing it will make you want to just shit, anyway.
I was being facetious. Still, Glenn Beck is looking smarter all the time.
Cool. I wasn't attacking you personally for saying that. Jones just rubs me the wrong way :(
Doc Safari
06-06-13, 13:33
Cool. I wasn't attacking you personally for saying that. Jones just rubs me the wrong way :(
No offense taken. Just had to save my reputation there by making sure people knew I was kidding. :D
FlyingHunter
06-06-13, 13:39
I'm sure when the truth comes out about the other things they're doing it will make you want to just shit, anyway.
Clever....I like it
the fact that still 80% of the American public won't care.
Until (or if would be a better term) O'Reilly rants about it and denounces Bush's Patriot Act only then will even 10% more care.
But Dianne Feinstein says it's OK. Just so I can be on the Good Guy list, I'd be happy to submit her a sample for urinalysis. But only if I can do so in person.
http://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/screen-shot-2013-06-06-at-1-47-23-pm.png
This is why I just laugh at friends who want to buy firearms through private sales to make them "untraceable", but continue to FB/Twitter/text about them.
Doc Safari
06-06-13, 14:02
This is why I just laugh at friends who want to buy firearms through private sales to make them "untraceable", but continue to FB/Twitter/text about them.
And these same people will buy ammo and mags online using a credit card. Even being on an internet forum under a screen name is nothing to the spook industry.
People gotta wake up and not only smell the coffee, but realize it's boiling over.
This is why I just laugh at friends who want to buy firearms through private sales to make them "untraceable", but continue to FB/Twitter/text about them.
I've known a few of those goofballs over the years. If you're affraid to be a known gun owner now.... you sure as hell aren't going to fight for freedom when you have to...
Those are harmless gun owners and just the kind of citizen barry would be proud of.
I'm guessing most of the sheeple with an expensive Version iPhone wont have the sack to go cancel their contracts even though they tout 2A BS all day long.
This is a good chance to vote with your wallet...
I'm guessing most of the sheeple with an expensive Version iPhone wont have the sack to go cancel their contracts even though they tout 2A BS all day long.
This is a good chance to vote with your wallet...
Why? Verizon is compelled to comply with the "lawful" court order. What would you have them do? And, this is the one such FISA order that's been revealed. You don't think that all of the telecomms are likely to have received similar ones?
VooDoo6Actual
06-06-13, 14:39
I think some are missing the point.
It already has been going on & Verizon is NOT singularly exlcusive as the disinformation implies.
So who's paranoid ?
It gets better: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/06/senate-intelligence-leaders-say-phone-surveillance-is-lawful/?hpt=hp_t2
"As far as I know this is the exact three month renewal of what has been the case for the past seven years. This renewal is carried out by the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] court under the business records section of the Patriot Act," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who chairs the intelligence committee, told reporters in the Senate gallery. "Therefore it is lawful. It has been briefed to Congress."
Moose-Knuckle
06-06-13, 15:07
Old news, they've been up to this game for a long time.
Whistle-Blower Outs NSA/AT&T Spy Room
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70619
(this is where I am going to sound like a broken record)
I had the privilege of attending a lecture given by the gentleman who founded the information security firm that the film Sneakers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/?ref_=sr_1) was based upon. His step-son was in my graduating class. Back in the 90’s he told us that “we are so far beyond Big Brother it’s not even funny”. Bear in mind this was prior to Google, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, et al.
It is said that the NSA's Utah Data Center which is currently under construction in Bluffdale, UT will have the capability to intercept and store five zettabytes of data. That is an incomprehensible amount of information. Event data recorders (aka automobile black boxes) are set for standardized implementation by September 1st of this year. Throw in home PCs, work computers, laptops, tablets, e-readers, smart phones, debit cards, toll tags, RFID, GPS, etc. and one can start to get an inkling to the connectivity of their digital personality and it’s vulnerability.
“It’s really a turnkey situation where it can be turned quickly and become a totalitarian state pretty quickly. The capacity to do that is being set up. If we get the wrong person in office or in government they could make that happen quickly.”
– William Binney 40 year veteran of the NSA and now an Information Privacy Advocate.
“The only way to have perfect security is to have a perfect surveillance state. That’s George Orwell, that’s 1984 . . . that’s what the world would look like".
– Thomas Drake former NSA Senior Official and Information Privacy Advocate
People gotta wake up and not only smell the coffee, but realize it's boiling over.
The problem is this has been going on for ages...but... technology had not allowed for the sharing of information to the masses in the form of reasonable proof. The geek crowd knew but the average citizen wouldn't give it a second thought or simply dismiss it as science fiction.
Now we have reached the point that anything and everything can be seen.. but... it's a bit like that meet the Fockers scene.. who the hell is in who's circle of trust and are we all in one big cage.
Where one developer will create something that might help cure a disease, the government will use to "over see for safety and prevention" and the criminal will use it for crime.... or..and this is a very real thing that has happened... it will be used for crime that becomes an accepted behavior in society such as downloading music. Every serious musician on the planet has reworked their business model and accepted that downloading simply is here to stay. I believe the police state "observing" will follow the downloading model and simply be a part of society.. I would not have thought that DNA with it's sense of physical personal intrusion would have gone over so easily but I don't see the average citizen fighting electronic intrusion. ... and I damn sure don't see anyone that is currently using it to stop doing so no matter what anyone tells them.
Basically technology is rendering aspects of the Constitution and BoR incredibly hard to enforce or even have major portions of society concerned with holding on to. Not to mention a leader of the nation wanting to see it's disintegration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QHJGoZpFeM8#t=78s
Constitution & BoR ( 50% of America ) vs. Technology ( 100% of World )
That is one tough battle.
Littlelebowski
06-06-13, 16:04
The irony of self proclaimed liberal Feinstein going to the airwaves to defend this is rich. She only wants your guns and your privacy. It's for your own good.
"Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/author-patriot-act-says-phone-records-collection-excessive/#ixzz2VTP7WVGe
"Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/author-patriot-act-says-phone-records-collection-excessive/#ixzz2VTP7WVGe
Well I had a Verizon cell phone in 2001 so they should explicitly written that prohibition into the law then.
Alaskapopo
06-06-13, 16:28
Pat,
Respectfully, Where do you draw the line? While more expansive than the DNA it is not as intrusive? What attributes do you look at to evaluate these things?
Regards
I also have to admit that my delivery of my opinions in the past has been poor and for that I apologize. I don't apologize for my views rather the delivery of them. On this issue my position is that people do have an expectation of privacy in their communications by phone, text email etc and you should have to have a search warrant on a person by person basis to get those communications not a blanket take everyone's communications and go fishing. I also don't like the idea of a secret court. Perhaps I don't understand the function of the court that issued that court order. I know here in Alaska to record someones conversation I have to have an electronic search warrant that we call a glass warrant.
For those that asked the question what is the difference to me between this and the DNA topic.
The DNA collected is collected after probable cause for an arrest has been confirmed. DNA is taken after arrangement where a judge has reviewed the case at least up here. This is the same burden of proof as a search warrant. They are not throwing a wide net and taking everyone's DNA just those arrested for felony crimes.
The main difference for me is the scope. One is a wide net that takes everyone in the other just takes in people who there is at least probable cause (established by a judge) that they committed a felony.
Well I had a Verizon cell phone in 2001 so they should explicitly written that prohibition into the law then.
I'll take that a step farther and say the law never should have been written in the first place.
"Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/author-patriot-act-says-phone-records-collection-excessive/#ixzz2VTP7WVGe
Well yeah, but you've got to pass the law to find out what's in the law. You have to give up the DNA to see if the DNA is needed. It's the Nancy Pelosi Theorem.
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-06-13, 17:19
I say the solution is to just stopping doing everything electronically, But they might take that as a warning sign and use that to investigate you.
I think some are missing the point.
It already has been going on & Verizon is NOT singularly elcusive as the disinformation implies.
So who's paranoid ?
Yeah. I'm literally unsurprised by the majority of this, except that it's been handled so badly by so many parties involved.
Anybody with a clue looking at the amount of storage and processing power being dropped into Utah already knew that was WHY the facility was being built; the part that mystifies me is that all the effort is going into politicians trying to shuffle blame; and NONE of it is going into how to construct useful oversight for any of the collections going on. The argument will be made that the NSA needs the capability to monitor terrorist threats that are making use of domestic communications infrastructure (if not openly, that argument will be made, and green lit), but little focus will be shown towards what level of oversight will be applied, what legal standards and precedents will be considered relevant, and most importantly what officials will be the accountability linch-pins for when the constitutionality IS called into question. Hiding behind the classification of the collections to disguise the extent of monitoring is not a long term solution, and is just going to foment ongoing scandal, just as much as faux outrage does literally nothing to address the underlying issue.
As for applicability of converting into a police state in a hurry - that ship has sailed, I regret to inform you. Most who have honestly considered a non-ballot box revolution in this country have recognized that the government would have air supremacy, but failed to take into account the communications supremacy and over-match they'd be facing. The only method of reclaiming and piece of that equation is by making public what agency/department is accountable for what part of that intelligence picture, and making clear mission statements about what IS and ISN'T in the purview of their role; and something better than the current FOIA for determining if an electronic media collections warrant exists.
The_War_Wagon
06-06-13, 17:33
Let's hope the gummint has YET to discover the interwebz, and gun-related forums! :secret:
Lot of TIN FOIL CONSPIRACY talk in this thread...
I say the solution is to just stopping doing everything electronically, But they might take that as a warning sign and use that to investigate you.
because the united states government finds each and every one of you so interesting?
if you're not talking to terrorists i doubt they're listening to you. if you are talking to terrorists, why are you talking to terrorists?
Yeah. I'm literally unsurprised by the majority of this, except that it's been handled so badly by so many parties involved.
Anybody with a clue looking at the amount of storage and processing power being dropped into Utah already knew that was WHY the facility was being built; the part that mystifies me is that all the effort is going into politicians trying to shuffle blame; and NONE of it is going into how to construct useful oversight for any of the collections going on. The argument will be made that the NSA needs the capability to monitor terrorist threats that are making use of domestic communications infrastructure (if not openly, that argument will be made, and green lit), but little focus will be shown towards what level of oversight will be applied, what legal standards and precedents will be considered relevant, and most importantly what officials will be the accountability linch-pins for when the constitutionality IS called into question. Hiding behind the classification of the collections to disguise the extent of monitoring is not a long term solution, and is just going to foment ongoing scandal, just as much as faux outrage does literally nothing to address the underlying issue.
As for applicability of converting into a police state in a hurry - that ship has sailed, I regret to inform you. Most who have honestly considered a non-ballot box revolution in this country have recognized that the government would have air supremacy, but failed to take into account the communications supremacy and over-match they'd be facing. The only method of reclaiming and piece of that equation is by making public what agency/department is accountable for what part of that intelligence picture, and making clear mission statements about what IS and ISN'T in the purview of their role; and something better than the current FOIA for determining if an electronic media collections warrant exists.
maybe because those standards already exist. maybe because the oversight is already in place. if fisa is what it is, even if it's the worst rendition of what we could possibly imagine in the now and in the future, then that means the protocols are already in place. the policies already exists. the right or wrong people are already watching over the whole thing. if there are serious abuses it will eventually come to light and policies will change and things will again evolve.
there was a time when the united states banned warrantless wiretapping. there may be a day when we return to that. that day isn't tomorrow, but some day we may go back to accepting extremists causing casualties in our sterilized world.
polymorpheous
06-06-13, 17:46
because the united states government finds each and every one of you so interesting?
if you're not talking to terrorists i doubt they're listening to you. if you are talking to terrorists, why are you talking to terrorists?
The current BS with the IRS does not raise questions in your mind at all?
Doc Safari
06-06-13, 17:55
Let's hope the gummint has YET to discover the interwebz, and gun-related forums! :secret:
Funny you should mention that....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_print.html
The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio, video, photographs, e-mails, documents and connection logs that enable analysts to track a person’s movements and contacts over time.
The technology companies, which participate knowingly in PRISM operations, include most of the dominant global players of Silicon Valley. They are listed on a roster that bears their logos in order of entry into the program: “Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple.” PalTalk, although much smaller, has hosted significant traffic during the Arab Spring and in the ongoing Syrian civil war.
Firsthand experience with these systems, and horror at their capabilities, is what drove a career intelligence officer to provide PowerPoint slides about PRISM and supporting materials to The Washington Post in order to expose what he believes to be a gross intrusion on privacy. “They quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type,” the officer said.
The current BS with the IRS does not raise questions in your mind at all?
the current bs with the irs is at worst a democrat vs. tea-partiers-who-aren't-democrat-voters and has quite a bit to do with superpacs and other conglomerated campiagn financing and lobbying stuff that we all may find rather descpicable all around.
how or why would you draw a conclusion that because the irs had some over zealous democrats and did some prejudicial stuff on taxation, that the nsa (totally separate mission statement and entity) and cia (totally separate mission statement and entity) would be watching anyone here under a provision of executive order that has nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with extremists from foreign nations?
Funny you should mention that....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_print.html
isn't that where a lot of the extremists get their thoughts, plots, idea sharing?
forums that are nothing like m4carbine, video sites that host and diseminate the hate murka videos, etc. why wouldn't they be watching those? if they weren't watching them would they even be doing their jobs? wouldn't that be a huge deriliction of duty?
Moose-Knuckle
06-06-13, 18:06
because the united states government finds each and every one of you so interesting?
Nah, they just view "each and every one of you" as a potential threat.
if you're not talking to terrorists i doubt they're listening to you. if you are talking to terrorists, why are you talking to terrorists?
So who defines what a "terrorist" is, the likes of Holder?
polymorpheous
06-06-13, 18:19
the current bs with the irs is at worst a democrat vs. tea-partiers-who-aren't-democrat-voters and has quite a bit to do with superpacs and other conglomerated campiagn financing and lobbying stuff that we all may find rather descpicable all around.
how or why would you draw a conclusion that because the irs had some over zealous democrats and did some prejudicial stuff on taxation, that the nsa (totally separate mission statement and entity) and cia (totally separate mission statement and entity) would be watching anyone here under a provision of executive order that has nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with extremists from foreign nations?
Right, I'm sure that the IRS is the only governmental agency being politicized under the current administration.
Please remember that both the NSA and CIA were never supposed to be operational on US soil.
Nah, they just view "each and every one of you" as a potential threat.
So who defines what a "terrorist" is, the likes of Holder?
i continually find it remarkable that anyone here would be so convinced that every single employee of the government that is on a gs payscale is ceaselessly trying to monitor and destroy the lives of mundane americans who are so unimportant in criminal or adversarial nature that these same employees wouldn't be pursuing much more criminal or adversarial targets.
i think it's simple math. there aren't even enough police to catch all the bad guys. ask any local cop how many dirtbags get away with it every day, day after day. how many unclosed cases and unsolved mysteries exist. hell, people here complain about the revolving door of the penal system. of course those sworn to protect america have nothing better to do than to pursue the communique of people on m4carbine or the like.
there's not like... terrorist forums, child ponography forums, hacker forums, online drug distribution sites, child sex slavery classifieds online, there isn't like a revolution going on in a powder keg region of the world that people gotta be keeping an eye on. no... m4carbine and its cache of smarter-than-the-average-bear users are going to cause a ruckus in murka by disagreeing on tons of stuff on a daily basis. i bet people here would form the ultimate army, 10 chiefs to every indian. would be the most epic force the world would ever have seen.
i continually find it remarkable that anyone here would be so convinced that every single employee of the government that is on a gs payscale is ceaselessly trying to monitor and destroy the lives of mundane americans who are so unimportant in criminal or adversarial nature that these same employees wouldn't be pursuing much more criminal or adversarial targets.
You mean like the audit and raid of Gibson Guitars over some pieces of ****ing wood?
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/052313-657569-gibson-guitar-raid-like-tea-party-intimidation.htm
You have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.
Scotty, make your point without talking this way. - SeriousStudent
Been going on going on for [over] 40 years...
They were using word recognition during the Civil Rights Movement.
Check out COINTRLPRO.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
You mean like the audit and raid of Gibson Guitars over some pieces of ****ing wood?
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/052313-657569-gibson-guitar-raid-like-tea-party-intimidation.htm
You have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.
if the competition got raided next would it ease your mind?
I actually heard it said that the capture of people destroying endangered species and plants is far more rewarding than the capture of drug distributors. so to you it may just be some pieces of wood but to fish and wild life who undoubtedly teamed up with the IRS... its not that simple. when they do math, its quite dire math.
as for impropriety in the targeting. I think they should hit the competition. media just did some of the work for the cops. either that or they were cooperators and already paid their fines so they could avoid the bad press.
if you are talking to terrorists, why are you talking to terrorists?
Because no one knew they were going to blow up the Boston Marathon? Well,.... except maybe the government had a few clues.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist..
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no-one left
to speak out.
[When the Nazis Came for Me
by Pastor Martin Niemöller]
ClearedHot
06-06-13, 18:49
the current bs with the irs is at worst a democrat vs. tea-partiers-who-aren't-democrat-voters and has quite a bit to do with superpacs and other conglomerated campiagn financing and lobbying stuff that we all may find rather descpicable all around.
how or why would you draw a conclusion that because the irs had some over zealous democrats and did some prejudicial stuff on taxation, that the nsa (totally separate mission statement and entity) and cia (totally separate mission statement and entity) would be watching anyone here under a provision of executive order that has nothing to do with taxation and everything to do with extremists from foreign nations?
Unrelated...are you still a moderator on that Mitsubishi Evo forum? You sound like the same guy.
I actually heard it said that the capture of people destroying endangered species and plants is far more rewarding than the capture of drug distributors.
But that's not what happened with Gibson.
ClearedHot
06-06-13, 18:52
You mean like the audit and raid of Gibson Guitars over some pieces of ****ing wood?
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/052313-657569-gibson-guitar-raid-like-tea-party-intimidation.htm
You have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.
Not everyone lives in the real world apparently. Especially when you're a yuppie know-it-all from Southern California.
I wish I could find all those posts on TOS where people argued that the provisions of the Patriot Act would NEVER be used against US citizens.
I wish I could find all those posts on TOS where people argued that the provisions of the Patriot Act would NEVER be used against US citizens.
There are many here who argued the very same...
"Paranoid", they said...
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Unrelated...are you still a moderator on that Mitsubishi Evo forum? You sound like the same guy.
nope.
Not everyone lives in the real world apparently. Especially when you're a yuppie know-it-all from Southern California.
which world is more real? the one where people here believe the gov is listening to their personal conversations or are interested in their personal whereabouts? or the one where I stipulate the gov is more interested in finding the next drone strike target?
there's not like... terrorist forums, child ponography forums, hacker forums, online drug distribution sites, child sex slavery classifieds online, there isn't like a revolution going on in a powder keg region of the world that people gotta be keeping an eye on. no... m4carbine and its cache of smarter-than-the-average-bear users are going to cause a ruckus in murka by disagreeing on tons of stuff on a daily basis. i bet people here would form the ultimate army, 10 chiefs to every indian. would be the most epic force the world would ever have seen.
Do you not understand the gravity of social media and it's ability to define and interconnect the masses? That's how in part that Obama won his first election. The GOP just hired the the CTO from Facebook. You think he's going to tell them to get everyone into little groups and tell them all to mind their business?
which world is more real? the one where people here believe the gov is listening to their personal conversations or are interested in their personal whereabouts? or the one where I stipulate the gov is more interested in finding the next drone strike target?
Yeah.... guess you're right... they could never happen at the same time. :confused:
I think some are missing the point.
It already has been going on & Verizon is NOT singularly exlcusive as the disinformation implies.
So who's paranoid ?
Bingo.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Just because the government is legally authorized to engage in a particular kind of conduct doesn't mean it is good idea and they should be doing it. That's the problem here..
i continually find it remarkable that anyone here would be so convinced that every single employee of the government that is on a gs payscale is ceaselessly trying to monitor and destroy the lives of mundane americans who are so unimportant in criminal or adversarial nature that these same employees wouldn't be pursuing much more criminal or adversarial targets.
i think it's simple math. there aren't even enough police to catch all the bad guys. ask any local cop how many dirtbags get away with it every day, day after day. how many unclosed cases and unsolved mysteries exist. hell, people here complain about the revolving door of the penal system. of course those sworn to protect america have nothing better to do than to pursue the communique of people on m4carbine or the like.
there's not like... terrorist forums, child ponography forums, hacker forums, online drug distribution sites, child sex slavery classifieds online, there isn't like a revolution going on in a powder keg region of the world that people gotta be keeping an eye on. no... m4carbine and its cache of smarter-than-the-average-bear users are going to cause a ruckus in murka by disagreeing on tons of stuff on a daily basis. i bet people here would form the ultimate army, 10 chiefs to every indian. would be the most epic force the world would ever have seen.
"Author of Patriot Act says NSA phone records collection 'never the intent' of law"
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/06/author-patriot-act-says-phone-records-collection-excessive/#ixzz2VTP7WVGe
I have to cry BS.
That's exactly PART of what it's intent was/is.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
The_War_Wagon
06-06-13, 19:36
I wish I could find all those posts on TOS where people argued that the provisions of the Patriot Act would NEVER be used against US citizens.
If there's a way to screw up a FREE cup of coffee, the gummint WILL find it... usually before the end of the NEXT administration... :rolleyes:
Moose-Knuckle
06-06-13, 19:58
i continually find it remarkable that anyone here would be so convinced that every single employee of the government that is on a gs payscale is ceaselessly trying to monitor and destroy the lives of mundane americans who are so unimportant in criminal or adversarial nature that these same employees wouldn't be pursuing much more criminal or adversarial targets.
i think it's simple math. there aren't even enough police to catch all the bad guys. ask any local cop how many dirtbags get away with it every day, day after day. how many unclosed cases and unsolved mysteries exist. hell, people here complain about the revolving door of the penal system. of course those sworn to protect america have nothing better to do than to pursue the communique of people on m4carbine or the like.
there's not like... terrorist forums, child ponography forums, hacker forums, online drug distribution sites, child sex slavery classifieds online, there isn't like a revolution going on in a powder keg region of the world that people gotta be keeping an eye on. no... m4carbine and its cache of smarter-than-the-average-bear users are going to cause a ruckus in murka by disagreeing on tons of stuff on a daily basis. i bet people here would form the ultimate army, 10 chiefs to every indian. would be the most epic force the world would ever have seen.
All that and you still didn't anwser my question. Just curious, but have you ever gone by any other user names here on M4C? You sound a lot like someone who use to post here.
You have no f***ing clue what you are talking about.
LOL, well nevermind Scotty nailed it.
If there's a way to screw up a FREE cup of coffee, the gummint WILL find it... usually before the end of the NEXT administration... :rolleyes:
The government will always use whatever tools they have for the applications you'd least prefer.
Always.
Cincinnatus
06-06-13, 20:02
Can we please stop feeding the troll?
All this data collection did wonders to stop the Boston attacks I might add... oh wait ... nevermind.
Moose-Knuckle
06-06-13, 20:15
Can we please stop feeding the troll?
Agreed. The ignore list is growing.
I swear he posts under several different user names here, meh oh well.
SeriousStudent
06-06-13, 20:21
Agreed. The ignore list is growing.
I swear he posts under several different user names here, meh oh well.
If you think someone is posting under several names, report it. That's a violation, and will be dealt with. Give us the names.
Mauser KAR98K
06-06-13, 20:52
Funny you should mention that....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_print.html
Here is the extended cut from a different source, citing some things different.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data
Don't quite trust the Washington Compost.
We are very much living in a post-constitution Untied (Divided) States.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM
This guy warned about this 7 months ago.
7 months ago. LOL. I was in the NAV in the 90's. We interacted with the NSA back then on stuff we "found."
The FEDS, Military, etc has been "listening" for a long, long time.
C4
which world is more real? the one where people here believe the gov is listening to their personal conversations or are interested in their personal whereabouts? or the one where I stipulate the gov is more interested in finding the next drone strike target?
No one here has ever been worth listening to that only posts in lower case type and apparently you're no exception. Must be something to do with a blatant desire to come off as rebelliously lazy, in this typical case while dispensing repeated misinformation. Tiresome to most I assure you.
MountainRaven
06-06-13, 20:57
which world is more real? the one where people here believe the gov is listening to their personal conversations or are interested in their personal whereabouts? or the one where I stipulate the gov is more interested in finding the next drone strike target?
According to NPR(!), you're wrong.
The NSA is collecting as much information about as many people as they can.
Going back to the Boston Marathon Bombing... they have as many records as they can possibly store regarding everything and everyone leading up to it. They learn the Tsarnaev brothers are involved, they punch in their information and drag up all the data they have already collected related to them.
Just because the government is legally authorized to engage in a particular kind of conduct doesn't mean it is good idea and they should be doing it. That's the problem here..
Any Unconstitutional activity is, by definition, illegal. Regardless of what Congress or the American public believes or would like to believe.
All this data collection did wonders to stop the Boston attacks I might add... oh wait ... nevermind.
Again, according to NPR, the current system requires investigators to go back to the (secret-hush-hush, trust us it exists) FISA court to get the data they have already collected regarding an individual, act, or incident. The ultimate goal is to create an algorithm allowing them to predict terrorist attacks, thereby making all of the data available to investigators all of the time.
ETA:
Does no one remember the movie Enemy of the State? The 60 Minutes report on Echelon? This was 13+ years ago. I remember arguing against government intrusion into our private lives through systems like Echelon back in Debate during Freshman year of High School (which would have been 2000-2001).
GeorgiaBoy
06-06-13, 20:58
7 months ago. LOL. I was in the NAV in the 90's. We interacted with the NSA back then on stuff we "found."
The FEDS, Military, etc has been "listening" for a long, long time.
C4
Not saying its new.
Just saying that when that video went around the net for a while most dismissed it as conspiracy theory.
If it is being transmitted it is being monitored - the internet, cell phones, txt, email, WiFi, all of it. It has been happening for some years now. It started under Clinton and continues to this day.
Of course, why would an innocent person have anything to fear?...
Oh, and Ron Paul is a kook, and possibly a racist.
I used to ask people this all the time. If you have nothing to hide, why do you care if someone is listening??
Back in the day, I saw no issue with it. Now, not so much. Funny how things change.
C4
BrigandTwoFour
06-06-13, 21:02
I've been reading the DU ever since Newtown to gauge the gun control response of the loony left. Reading their reactions to the news about the NSA is entertaining, to say the least.
Three things come to mind:
1. A significant portion of them see no issue with it, since they're not doing anything illegal anyway (and, for the record, this is the same group that flipped a shit when Bush did it. So much for putting personal integrity above group loyalty)
2. A lot of them were calling gun owners and "teabaggers" outright paranoid over feeling that the government was overstepping its bounds. They seem to have some implicit trust that government is always used for good and is never abused, and anyone who feels otherwise is a gun-humping lunatic. This group seems awfully quiet at the moment.
4. A significant portion of their user base is renouncing party loyalty over integrity issues. I believe this group could be attracted to the moderate-thinking middle ground on a lot of issues (including firearm ownership as a defense against tyranny).
In the end, I think there is a tectonic shift happening in the citizens of this country. The authoritarian left and authoritarian right will give up on the practice of using social issues to attain power and simply fuse into a new version of whatever party they want. I just hope that when that happens, the country can survive.
I used to ask people this all the time. If you have nothing to hide, why do you care if someone is listening??
Back in the day, I saw no issue with it. Now, not so much. Funny how things change.
C4
Felt the exact same way until my limited faith in government all but evaporated.
ClearedHot
06-06-13, 21:09
nope.
So you're not a moderator there anymore, but you are that same guy I'm referring to right?
You have the same condescending, know-it-all aura about you.
Felt the exact same way until my limited faith in government all but evaporated.
Coming from the intel world, being comfortable with spying on people comes with the job. While I looked at the people we targeted as "evil" we also had to watch "good" people to make sure they weren't saying anything they shouldn't. I struggled with this part quite a bit while I was in.
C4
Coming from the intel world, being comfortable with spying on people comes with the job. While I looked at the people we targeted as "evil" we also had to watch "good" people to make sure they weren't saying anything they shouldn't. I struggled with this part quite a bit while I was in.
C4
Which is essentially fine because at the time you felt a sense of nobility to what you were doing, a perception that while perhaps questionable in the by the book sense there was likely a good reason underneath it all, one which made sense to you. And as you surely know by now none of that applies to what we are seeing today.
Not saying its new.
Just saying that when that video went around the net for a while most dismissed it as conspiracy theory.
Just disregard the sanguinoid; you'll have peace of mind and you'll sleep better.
Many who scoff at "conspiracy theories" have proven time and time again they have their heads in the sand.
Remember: you cannot awaken a man who PRETENDS to be asleep.
Let sleeping dogs lie and all that. They DON'T WANT to know.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Ouroborous
06-06-13, 21:28
I'm sure this has been said before in this thread somewhere but how is this "news" and why is it that the media is acting like this is some new developing story?
This has been going on for a long time and most reasonably "aware" people have known about it.
I used to ask people this all the time. If you have nothing to hide, why do you care if someone is listening??
Back in the day, I saw no issue with it. Now, not so much. Funny how things change.
C4
It is funny how my perspective has changed thankfully in a large part due to this forum.
A few years ago I'd have said the same thing. Why care if you have nothing to hide...
Why have we let this go on for so long? And quite a few of us shouldn't be saying it's because of that lazy, apathetic population out there that we claim we aren't a part of. We, or at least I, am just as guilty. I've voted the lesser of two evils since y2k and didn't blink when W signed the Patriot Act. It's patriotic, right?
So what can WE do? We can vote out a politician or two MAYBE but let's face it...Washington isn't going to repeal the Patriot Act or stop the snooping they've been doing for decades and the few politicians with enough guts to stand up to it are dismissed as kooks by most of their own party. How can we seriously stop the largest data center in the history of the world from being built with taxes we've paid and without our consent? It's scary when you think about it. God I grow more and more hopeless every day :(
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
This might piss some people off, but that is the way it works.
C4
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
This might piss some people off, but that is the way it works.
C4
And that would be slightly more OK if we had watchmen we could trust overseeing the watchers.
Who's to say when they become corrupt? ;)
We haven't always needed or had such spying technologies to use so why do we need them now? Is it because of better technology that we need more advanced and top secret technology to push that envelope of privacy? It isn't so much privacy as it is abuse of power these admins could be and are prone to. In fairness to the point I think you're making there luckily haven't been many abuses...that we know of or have hit the headlines. The current legal system is ineffective and proceeds at a snail's pace at best to make a person whole who's been falsely accused.
What will the failure/success ratio be of an algorithm that predicts potential crime based simply on words, financial records, browser activity, etc.?
RogerinTPA
06-06-13, 22:06
7 months ago. LOL. I was in the NAV in the 90's. We interacted with the NSA back then on stuff we "found."
The FEDS, Military, etc has been "listening" for a long, long time.
C4
Agreed. While with Army Intel, we had cell phone intercept capabilities as far back as the early 80s. Feinstein & Reid admitted the current program has been running for the past 7 years.
Of course, why would an innocent person have anything to fear?...
Because my personal and private matters don't need to be illegal for me to want them to remain personal and private. The fact that they are listening despite my wishes, to say nothing of the 4th Amendment, is more than enough reason to cause me fear of many things.
Another area where this type of thing can result in abuse and misuse is insider information that could be sold to stock traders, or similar situations. Imagine the possibilities for corporate espionage or for figuring out which stocks will rise, and which will fall. You could really capitalize on knowing what new features will be in the next iphone, or what inventions people are trying to patent, what they are trying to hide from their wives (blackmail) or any manner of other similar things. Insider trading information could be worth millions, or even billions. We are supposed to trust that these employees with access to our most private personal and financial information will never misuse it, even given the opportunities to create VAST personal weath for themselves with a few phone calls?
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
I think the issue is the use of dragnet tactics and the sheer scale of it. And it's particularly troubling at this specific point in time because of the abuses of power and leakage of collected information to unauthorized entities and persons that have been revealed recently.
4. A significant portion of their user base is renouncing party loyalty over integrity issues. I believe this group could be attracted to the moderate-thinking middle ground on a lot of issues (including firearm ownership as a defense against tyranny).
In the end, I think there is a tectonic shift happening in the citizens of this country. The authoritarian left and authoritarian right will give up on the practice of using social issues to attain power and simply fuse into a new version of whatever party they want.
And Rand Paul is trying to capitalize on this. The Gop Establishment very concerned.
maybe because those standards already exist. maybe because the oversight is already in place. if fisa is what it is, even if it's the worst rendition of what we could possibly imagine in the now and in the future, then that means the protocols are already in place. the policies already exists. the right or wrong people are already watching over the whole thing. if there are serious abuses it will eventually come to light and policies will change and things will again evolve.
Maybe I've worked in places that make me think this stuff is child's play. The unclass side of my previous job alone when taken on the whole would make what I did patently obvious.
My point is not that systematic abuses will become a sustained thing, my point is that one single abuse of that system constitutes a complete failure of that oversight mechanism, and is likely to cause very real, grave harm to the security of our nation as the ramifications of that become clear to the general populous.
When you see the 9/11 commission reports of just how hopelessly inept one arm of government is at even figuring out that the other arm is already doing a duplicate task, now extrapolate that towards how far deliberate abuses can go because of that inherent bureaucratic inertia and miscommunication before even the right people become aware that it has happened. The rosy tinted version of that is a mere false flag attack from within our own intelligence community, and there are worse possibilities.
Moose-Knuckle
06-07-13, 02:22
Do you not understand the gravity of social media and it's ability to define and interconnect the masses? That's how in part that Obama won his first election. The GOP just hired the the CTO from Facebook. You think he's going to tell them to get everyone into little groups and tell them all to mind their business?
Spot on!
Data mining for political gold . . . the AFL-CIO created a "political Manhattan Project" called The Analyst Institute, "a consortium of liberal groups, parties, campaigns, and consultants. It was designed specifically to do science in secret to help Democrats win elections." The GOP is playing catch up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Map4FrUH2PY
On another note regarding social media, Libyan rebels were relaying coordinates for NATO airstrikes to NATO via a Twitter feed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/15/libya-nato-gathers-targets-twitter
Mauser KAR98K
06-07-13, 02:28
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
This might piss some people off, but that is the way it works.
C4
About a decade or more ago I would have totally agreed. In fact, I was very supportive of the tapping from foreign to domestic calls that is under the Patriot Act (still am).
But the government and those in charge have changed, and they ARE targeting conservative groups. So much so that I believe it was how they missed the Boston bombers. The broad sweep they have been doing and the collection is very unconstitutional. What the government has essential done is silenced a vast majority of the United States just be fear that they are being listened to.
This is also a very big breach in confidence of the government. Polls are indicating this with sharp numbers that if the mid-terms were held next month, the Democrats and quite possibly established Republicans would be out of congress, and Obama would be scared shitless. Lets hope all this stings very painfully till next November.
There is still the big question that still has not been answered: how to we find the bad guys without destroying civil liberties and the constitution. We have still not solved that problem, and probably never will. But this has pushed whatever meaningful answer further back.
Moose-Knuckle
06-07-13, 02:31
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
This might piss some people off, but that is the way it works.
C4
I'll re-post this here as it applies . . .
“The only way to have perfect security is to have a perfect surveillance state. That’s George Orwell, that’s 1984 . . . that’s what the world would look like".
– Thomas Drake former NSA Senior Official and Information Privacy Advocate
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Franklin's Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775
with the technology they could easily filter out any calls over seas !
and just those like the Chech terrorists they gave all the money to before they set off bombs in this country
funny they will do this but not shut down our borders !
not bother calling a terrorist shooting up everything what it is NO its workplace violence
yes we need to catch bad guys but this is not what this is about sadly ! its about spying on the new enemy the conservatives !
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
I'm going to start placing phone orders with my Roshan, Etisalat, and MTN phones because your business is the BOMB :eek:
;)
I think the issue is the use of dragnet tactics and the sheer scale of it. And it's particularly troubling at this specific point in time because of the abuses of power and leakage of collected information to unauthorized entities and persons that have been revealed recently.
I understand.
C4
I'll re-post this here as it applies . . .
If you asked people if they were willing to give up some of their privacy for better safety, MOST would say yes.
The minority is the people that are more willing to risk a terrorist attack than give up my privacy.
The bulk of the populace has no way or no knowledge on how to defend themselves. While the rest of us that are into guns, training, etc wouldn't mind seeing a terrorist in the mall every now and again. ;)
C4
with the technology they could easily filter out any calls over seas !
and just those like the Chech terrorists they gave all the money to before they set off bombs in this country
funny they will do this but not shut down our borders !
not bother calling a terrorist shooting up everything what it is NO its workplace violence
yes we need to catch bad guys but this is not what this is about sadly ! its about spying on the new enemy the conservatives !
We have three main threats IMHO. International terrorist (living abroad), international terrorists (living in the US) and Domestic terrorists (home grown).
This basically means that you have to listen and read everything in order to catch these people.
NORMALLY, this info is not used on any of the "good" citizens for political reasons.
C4
I'm going to start placing phone orders with my Roshan, Etisalat, and MTN phones because your business is the BOMB :eek:
;)
LOL. I do have customers that will call me from one cell phone, talk for a bit, hang up and call me from a different cell phone, talk for a couple minutes and then call me from a land line. :D
C4
Grand58742
06-07-13, 10:20
We have three main threats IMHO. International terrorist (living abroad), international terrorists (living in the US) and Domestic terrorists (home grown).
This basically means that you have to listen and read everything in order to catch these people.
NORMALLY, this info is not used on any of the "good" citizens for political reasons.
C4
Here's the problem though...
I don't trust the current Executive Branch's motives in the very least to classify what exactly a "domestic terrorist" is. Call me crazy or wearing a tin foil hat, but they aren't exactly instilling confidence as of late with their decision making process when it comes to these sorta things.
Here's the problem though...
I don't trust the current Executive Branch's motives in the very least to classify what exactly a "domestic terrorist" is. Call me crazy or wearing a tin foil hat, but they aren't exactly instilling confidence as of late with their decision making process when it comes to these sorta things.
I'm pretty sure they define it as their political opposition.
RogerinTPA
06-07-13, 11:14
All this worked all so well for the Chechen Boston bombers. They fit the various profiles in the search criteria but failed miserably. If they can't develop info, let alone actionable intell on the info they gathered with super computers, what does that say about collection efforts???
Doc Safari
06-07-13, 11:24
All this worked all so well for the Chechen Boston bombers. They fit the various profiles in the search criteria but failed miserably. If they can't develop info, let alone actionable intell on the info they gathered with super computers, what does that say about collection efforts???
The problem was that their search of "Tsaernev" and "Tea Party" turned up zero results.
Grand58742
06-07-13, 13:40
Oh, so very reassuring...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/07/obama-phone-internet-data-collection-not-big-brother/
Between this, the IRS scandal, the EPA overreaching, Holder probably lying under oath, Benghazi, multiple controversial recess appointments, Fast and Furious, hidden Obamacare regulations, the AP phone tapping debacle, the NDAA 2012, lies on campaign promises...the list goes on
And the man somehow still has managed to maintain a 47% approval rating. Are Americans stupid or just ill informed? Or both?
As a country, we've sincerely reaped what we've sowed in the last election. Strike that, two elections. Had Bush even done a fraction of this, he would have had Pelosi seal clapping over the pending impeachment hearings and the rest of the DNC salivating over the possibility of deposing a sitting President.
RogerinTPA
06-07-13, 13:48
Oh, so very reassuring...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/07/obama-phone-internet-data-collection-not-big-brother/
Between this, the IRS scandal, the EPA overreaching, Holder probably lying under oath, Benghazi, multiple controversial recess appointments, Fast and Furious, hidden Obamacare regulations, the AP phone tapping debacle, the NDAA 2012, lies on campaign promises...the list goes on
And the man somehow still has managed to maintain a 47% approval rating. Are Americans stupid or just ill informed? Or both?
As a country, we've sincerely reaped what we've sowed in the last election. Strike that, two elections. Had Bush even done a fraction of this, he would have had Pelosi seal clapping over the pending impeachment hearings and the rest of the DNC salivating over the possibility of deposing a sitting President.
America is on social networks or at the mall. Most are not paying attention. Most people I come in contact with don't know about any of the scandals and don't care. They still support potus.
I just saw this posted on Rand Paul's Facebook page.
“We don't expect the President to give the American people every detail about a classified surveillance program. But we do expect him to place such a program within the rule of law, and to allow members of the other two coequal branches of government - Congress and the Judiciary - to have the ability to monitor and oversee such a program. Our Constitution and our right to privacy as Americans require as much.”
- Senator Obama 2006
Quite ironic but not surprising.
Moose-Knuckle
06-07-13, 16:05
If you asked people if they were willing to give up some of their privacy for better safety, MOST would say yes.
The bulk of the populace has no way or no knowledge on how to defend themselves. While the rest of us that are into guns, training, etc wouldn't mind seeing a terrorist in the mall every now and again. ;)
You are absolutely correct. The vast majority of people have been conditioned to be good sheep.
The minority is the people that are more willing to risk a terrorist attack than give up my privacy.
To paraphrase VooDoo6Actual: "Life is a risk . . . enjoy the adventure." :cool:
Grand58742
06-07-13, 16:09
America is on social networks or at the mall. Most are not paying attention. Most people I come in contact with don't know about any of the scandals and don't care. They still support potus.
Yeah, it was more or less a rhetorical question. But what you said it spot on.
America is on social networks or at the mall. Most are not paying attention. Most people I come in contact with don't know about any of the scandals and don't care. They still support potus.
Or both most likely.
Here's the problem though...
I don't trust the current Executive Branch's motives in the very least to classify what exactly a "domestic terrorist" is. Call me crazy or wearing a tin foil hat, but they aren't exactly instilling confidence as of late with their decision making process when it comes to these sorta things.
LOL!
Pretty much puts you on the "Tango" list, bro.
I got dibs on your gear.
LOL!
"One man with courage makes a majority."
yes but gathering info on everyone is not needed and its whats happening :)
and the problem is the current admin is using info to target citizens and with the IRS and the EPA and our own AG doing things like F&F
the genie is out of the bottle in a sense of OK to attack your political enemies and IMHO and many others it has turned any conservative into a terrorist in the lefts eyes !
since the so called %51 thing is ignored its listening to everyone for anything rather than targeting who matters !
if it was working how did the things that happen happen ! and how come nothing is really being done
We have three main threats IMHO. International terrorist (living abroad), international terrorists (living in the US) and Domestic terrorists (home grown).
This basically means that you have to listen and read everything in order to catch these people.
NORMALLY, this info is not used on any of the "good" citizens for political reasons.
C4
Mauser KAR98K
06-07-13, 18:16
Hey, Barry signed off on this! Defended it today as well!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/obama-china-targets-cyber-overseas
His second term is sunk not even a half a year through.
Grand58742
06-07-13, 18:19
LOL!
Pretty much puts you on the "Tango" list, bro.
I got dibs on your gear.
LOL!
"One man with courage makes a majority."
I'm .mil brother. Ya know the ones that the extreme tin foilers think are waiting in the wings for martial law to kick off so we can turn into straight JBT and get ours? So tables are turned lol
What number on the list for your gear am I? All I'm looking for are the hat and cool shades out of your avatar :D
morbidbattlecry
06-07-13, 21:16
I'm glad to see that americans in general are upset by this. It gives me some hope we aren't all screwed. Unfortunately the system is so entrenched that nothing will change.
What i am frightened about is what happens this or a future government decides they don't like a group of people. There just one judge away from calling them all terrorists.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/06/07/america_in_the_midst_of_a_coup_d_etat
Interesting take on things.
Hey, Barry signed off on this! Defended it today as well!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/07/obama-china-targets-cyber-overseas
His second term is sunk not even a half a year through.
I wish you were right but I don't think so. He survives this with some damage but he'll soldier on. Two reasons:
1. Because the elitist progressive element (universities, entertainment, and MSM) speak largely with one voice and they will hold their nose and get past this in order to continue supporting the larger collectivist cause.
2. Because a slight (but sufficient) majority of the American people are now too stupid or apathetic to hold him accountable.
I'm .mil brother. Ya know the ones that the extreme tin foilers think are waiting in the wings for martial law to kick off so we can turn into straight JBT and get ours? So tables are turned lol
What number on the list for your gear am I? All I'm looking for are the hat and cool shades out of your avatar :D
LMAO!
"One man with courage makes a majority."
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/07/new-xbox-by-nsa-partner-microsoft-will-watch-you-247/#ixzz2VYZSDzox
http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/07/new-xbox-by-nsa-partner-microsoft-will-watch-you-247/#ixzz2VYZSDzox
The Kinect being required to be connected is creepy. Of course, you could always wrap it in tinfoil so it couldn't see you...
Mauser KAR98K
06-08-13, 19:52
I wish you were right but I don't think so. He survives this with some damage but he'll soldier on. Two reasons:
1. Because the elitist progressive element (universities, entertainment, and MSM) speak largely with one voice and they will hold their nose and get past this in order to continue supporting the larger collectivist cause.
2. Because a slight (but sufficient) majority of the American people are now too stupid or apathetic to hold him accountable.
Would you please stop peeing in my cheerios.
How many scandals are we up to now? I'm starting to lose track..:rolleyes:
Mauser KAR98K
06-09-13, 01:17
How many scandals are we up to now? I'm starting to lose track..:rolleyes:
From my count....
F&F
Solindra (and some others of that nature)
Benghazi
IRS
AP
Fox wiretapping
NSA
Possibility of lack of effort on Boston Bombing
Non-enforcement of Mexican Boarder
Releasing Illegals
That's what I got. Am I missing any others?
Moose-Knuckle
06-09-13, 02:33
From my count....
F&F
Solindra (and some others of that nature)
Benghazi
IRS
AP
Fox wiretapping
NSA
Possibility of lack of effort on Boston Bombing
Non-enforcement of Mexican Boarder
Releasing Illegals
That's what I got. Am I missing any others?
Sealed records
Authenticated birth certificate
College transcripts
Being a Muslim (Indonesian paper trail)
(Barry's biological father) Frank Marshall Davis vs. Barack Hussein Obama
jklaughrey
06-09-13, 02:42
Sealed records
Authenticated birth certificate
College transcripts
Being a Muslim (Indonesian paper trail)
(Barry's biological father) Frank Marshall Davis vs. Barack Hussein Obama
Let's not forget election fraud :D
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Grand58742
06-09-13, 03:18
From my count....
F&F
Solindra (and some others of that nature)
Benghazi
IRS
AP
Fox wiretapping
NSA
Possibility of lack of effort on Boston Bombing
Non-enforcement of Mexican Boarder
Releasing Illegals
That's what I got. Am I missing any others?
EPA overstepping
Recess appointments
Controversial appointments
Czars on top of Czars
Controversial Czars
Hidden Obamacare agendas and fees
Congressmen and women bribed to pass Obamacare
$8 Trillion in new debt in four years...and still rising
Keystone XL keeping us that much more dependant on foreign oil
Sequestration and the impact on the military, but somehow the vacations just aren't stopping
Arizona immigration lawsuit
Getting the DOJ involved in the Treyvon Martin situation even though they knew it wasn't a hate crime before going in
Giving Chris Matthews that tingle up his leg (just the thought)
TV time showing Nancy Pelosi seal clapping at the State of the Union addresses (I'd rather gouge out my eyeballs and set myself on fire before watching her do that one more time)
VooDoo6Actual
06-09-13, 13:59
Move along nothing to see folks...
Got to love the semantic games of purposely driven tactics of deflection / minimalize / marginalize crimes, corruption, bribes et al
into words intentionally marginalized like scandal.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/960200_607426165942372_1626797374_n_zpsd4c384a3.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/960200_607426165942372_1626797374_n_zpsd4c384a3.jpg.html)
You were warned in the mid to late 1990s.
But it was "too tin foil" for the majority.
So the bands played on.
As [so did] the technological leaps...
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/06/09/nsa-the-secret-att-spy-room-and-2-israeli-companies/
"One man with courage makes a majority."
VooDoo6Actual
06-09-13, 17:04
NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I do not expect to see home again'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why
Video interview here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video
You were warned in the mid to late 1990s.
But it was "too tin foil" for the majority.
So the bands played on.
As Sid the technological leaps...
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/06/09/nsa-the-secret-att-spy-room-and-2-israeli-companies/
"One man with courage makes a majority."
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/ControlLoop_zps4a8e6dc6.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/ControlLoop_zps4a8e6dc6.jpg.html)
Great interview: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden: 'I do not expect to see home again'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-why
Video interview here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jun/09/nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-interview-video
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/ControlLoop_zps4a8e6dc6.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/teehee321/media/ControlLoop_zps4a8e6dc6.jpg.html)
Can they hear us now?
No, not the NSA.
The Sanguinoids...
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Mauser KAR98K
06-09-13, 23:48
I'm torn with the leaker. He did reveal the illegal search and seizure of American phone and internet records. But he did breach national security.
Though i have seen people compare him to PVT. Manning, but Manning leaked information with people's names who were in deep cover. This is different.
I'm torn with the leaker. He did reveal the illegal search and seizure of American phone and internet records. But he did breach national security.
Though i have seen people compare him to PVT. Manning, but Manning leaked information with people's names who were in deep cover. This is different.
What's this guy's background?
ETA. nevermind
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance
Impressive for only having a GED
QuietShootr
06-10-13, 10:38
This kind of hard to get into, but people would be wise to understand that you cannot catch TRULY bad people without spying on TRULY good people.
This might piss some people off, but that is the way it works.
C4
Then NO US citizens should ever be spied upon. Period. This is obscene.
Then NO US citizens should ever be spied upon. Period. This is obscene.
Understand, but you must realize that it sometimes (at least in our case) takes time to figure out if you were a US Citizen or not. Especially when operating in international waters.
What the NSA is doing is running a HUGE drag net across all forms of comms. This has been done forever with comms coming INTO the US. What has changed is that they just collect it all now and do dirty word searches looking for key words. So if your drunk brother-in-law says that he wants to blow something up (via phone or e-mail), you are now involved in the cycle and all previous e-mails & phone conversation (both his and yours) will be reviewed.
C4
So do you all see this guy as a Hero or a Traitor?
I am of two minds about it. Yes he did divulge classified information. But in doing so he revealed activities that go against the very foundations of our beliefs as a county.
I have mixed feelings about this too. Not sure I mind the scan, but I think they should have to have a court order if they want to go digging deeper.
However, I feel the public trust has been breached by this administration so much (IRS) that I would wonder if "Tea Party" is now one of the 'target phrases.
Gotta be careful here, also could be a red herring to get people and the press off track of the REAL breached of this administration's trust (IRS, Benghazi, etc.). People tend to let go the the more important stuff for the 'new' stuff, and forget...
----------
Back to the OP: If what he knew was illegal under US law, then he has a duty to report it. If it wasn't illegal, then he's in a pickle. However, didn't PFC Bradly Manning do basically the same thing with Wikileaks?
So do you all see this guy as a Hero or a Traitor?
I am of two minds about it. Yes he did divulge classified information. But in doing so he revealed activities that go against the very foundations of our beliefs as a county.
Well, we know that he expressed his concern MULTIPLE times through the chain. He stated that know one seemed to be concerned with it (business as usual). I identify with this line of thinking because it is easy to fall into the "For GOD and Country" logic. We (intel folks) often trust that the info will ALWAYS be used for good (which makes it easier to be "ok" with what happens).
Personally, I would have liked to see him go through the whistle blower program (officially). I do think that he would have gotten no where with this as the Govt wouldn't have found any problems do to the fact that what they are doing is "policy."
My guess is that his future is dim. The Chinese govt (or someone) will grab him shortly and either buy (or torture) the info out of him.
C4
My guess is that his future is dim. The Chinese govt (or someone) will grab him shortly and either buy (or torture) the info out of him.
C4
He seems resigned to this. I must say the guy has balls.
He seems resigned to this. I must say the guy has balls.
Yes.
C4
Where to begin...
It's a tough call between condemning the leaker (who does he/she think they are to decide what is important enough to keep secret? Do they have all the data behind the decision to engage in the activity they find illegal/immoral/bad)? They weren't elected to make those decisions.
Or...
Thank God for people of integrity who are not sheep, blindly following orders (we all know where that has gone). People have intelligence and conscience, and some orders are just plain wrong, whether legal or not. If the only way to make those orders known, and stopped (or at least generate a consensus) is to leak them, then leak them. It takes balls to go out on a limb like that.
When you trust your government to make the right decisions, you condemn the leaker. When your government becomes the untrusted player, the leaker/whistle blower serves a necessary function.
If the Administration had stamped Top Secret on the Benghazi reports, should we be prosecuting the whistle blowers? Making something illegal gives the powers-that-be the authority to punish. It doesn't make the act that is illegal wrong.
In this case, considering the history of the Obama Administration, I am tempted to give the leaker the Congressional Medal of Freedom. I don't believe anything this administration says. If they said the sky was blue, I'd take a second look.
My take on the NSA dragnet was that they weren't looking for something, they were looking for anything. There is a difference. Should cops be allowed to enter into every house without a warrant? I bet they would find out plenty, and catch several very bad players.
We have a bill of rights for a reason. This administration is moving so fast into 1984 that we may never fully recover. And I also blame Congress - Republicans and Democrats. They gave us the Patriot Act (something I was against from the beginning). While I did not like Russ Feingold, I agreed with his decision to be the lone nay vote on the Patriot Act. Whether he made that vote out of conviction or political calculation is another question.
Finally, the NSA and the Obama WH keeps saying that no one was listening to our phone calls. Only the originating phone number, the destination phone number, and the call duration was monitored.
What good does that do?
If it's true - that they are not listening in on our calls, what's the point of the exercise? If they suspect a specific phone number is associated with a terrorist, get a warrant to monitor that number.
Simply finding out who called whom and how long they talked doesn't tell them anything useful. There has to be more to it than this.
Same for the internet searches. Are they (or some computer program) reading our emails? Listening in on Skype or Face Time? Monitoring the web addresses we visit?
Considering who DHS considers a potential terrorist, and the .Gov track record (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Boston, TSA abuse, etc), I think there is plenty of reason to be concerned.
This guy may have done everyone a huge public service.
and he may end up like the Pakistani doctor who gave us Bin Laden's location - a thankful American public, but still rotting in a prison because our government him hanging...
Understand, but you must realize that it sometimes (at least in our case) takes time to figure out if you were a US Citizen or not. Especially when operating in international waters.
What the NSA is doing is running a HUGE drag net across all forms of comms. This has been done forever with comms coming INTO the US. What has changed is that they just collect it all now and do dirty word searches looking for key words. So if your drunk brother-in-law says that he wants to blow something up (via phone or e-mail), you are now involved in the cycle and all previous e-mails & phone conversation (both his and yours) will be reviewed.
C4
the way it was explained on npr is they have a database that they fill up with all the records. my interpretation of that is that this would be easier and more efficient than asking verizon every single time they need an additional piece of the puzzle they are trying to complete. instead they already have all the information and they query it. that doesn't mean that everyone in the database is being spied upon. it doesn't mean that at all. it means they have the whole database and when they need a piece of information they can look for it on the backdrop of the entire story.
and he may end up like the Pakistani doctor who gave us Bin Laden's location - a thankful American public, but still rotting in a prison because our government him hanging...
this is the same as all those classified documents leaked on wikileaks. no one will ever want to help the united states again because some crybaby having a hard time in the military is going to access all documents that are supposed to be kept hush and then plaster them all over the internet such that identities and operations are revealed.
I have mixed feelings about this too. Not sure I mind the scan, but I think they should have to have a court order if they want to go digging deeper.
the nsa leaked document was the court order, if i'm not mistaken.
there is a review that involves judges. there is a review that involves congress.
What they're doing needs more oversight, imho.
From an ABC news report in 2008 - (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5987804&page=1#.UbYhyOC4qVI)
US Soldier's 'Phone Sex' Intercepted, Shared
Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer.
"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.
Faulk said he joined in to listen, and talk about it during breaks in Back Hall's "smoke pit," but ended up feeling badly about his actions.
Would you please stop peeing in my cheerios.
Sorry. :D I'm in an Eeyore mode about the majority of our citizens who reelected this guy.
What they're doing needs more oversight, imho.
From an ABC news report in 2008 - (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5987804&page=1#.UbYhyOC4qVI)
i'm pretty sure those linguists were violating policy. they should be punished.
VooDoo6Actual
06-10-13, 14:35
Can they hear us now?
No, not the NSA.
The Sanguinoids...
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Do you think "Verax" is getting paid as well for leave of absence like IRS employees ?
Profundity def : when people have more respect for whistleblowers than elected Government representatives.
Grand58742
06-10-13, 14:38
Found this on another site.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2013/06/Obama-Verizon-copy.jpg
Gutshot John
06-10-13, 14:42
Personally, I would have liked to see him go through the whistle blower program (officially).
C4
In my experience the official "whistle blower" program is about as useful as a submarine with a screen door.
Might as well call it that "identify-yourself-as-a-rat-and-ruin-your-career-or-end-up-in-jail" program. The weakness in the system is that it assumes that either bureaucrats or politicians actually want to respond to whistle blower concerns, rather than having a vested interest in ignoring them. The only hope for whistle blowers is if the media gets ahold of the story (not so easy when they're all in the tank for Barry) and then the politicians/bureaucrats can march dutifully up to capitol hill, claim they didn't know anything, express the required outrage, and promise to do something about it and then file it away when the media lapdog moves on to the next squirrel.
This guy did right, owned it, and is prepared to take the consequences for a greater good, just like Daniel Ellsberg, he's got my respect.
QuietShootr
06-10-13, 15:05
Understand, but you must realize that it sometimes (at least in our case) takes time to figure out if you were a US Citizen or not. Especially when operating in international waters.
What the NSA is doing is running a HUGE drag net across all forms of comms. This has been done forever with comms coming INTO the US. What has changed is that they just collect it all now and do dirty word searches looking for key words. So if your drunk brother-in-law says that he wants to blow something up (via phone or e-mail), you are now involved in the cycle and all previous e-mails & phone conversation (both his and yours) will be reviewed.
C4
They are doing it. That doesn't mean it's Constitutional or RIGHT. In fact, it's a pretty ****ing heinous violation of human rights.
These guys would be proud.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Emblema_Stasi.svg/251px-Emblema_Stasi.svg.png
ETA: I'd like to add a hearty **** You to the guys here who called me a tinfoiler the last couple of years. You lose, assholes.
Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the invasion of privacy is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
Like I said before, what's the algorithm and it's success/failure ratio to determine if your words (or your relative's words) qualify you for a rectal exam administered by DHS?
QuietShootr
06-10-13, 15:13
Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the invasion of privacy is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
NO.
NO
Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the invasion of privacy is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
You would do all of what they are doing to save one life? Even ten or twenty or 100?
If that's the case then why the hell are you here when you could be rallying someplace against cars being legal, the construction of buildings and homes (people fall off them and die), swimming at public beaches (riptides are terrible) and heck even backyard pools (children fall into them). Shall I go on?
And don't forget what has taken place the past couple of years. We are now seeing clear abuses of power on numerous fronts, so acting like this one is ok, especially by all growing accounts, is extremely short-sighted.
Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the invasion of privacy is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
That's a spurious argument. In hindsight the answer is almost always going to be yes. The problem is this argument can be used to justify anything, up to and including the abrogation of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, pretty much all the BORs. Street side checkpoints. Torture. Living in a Police State.
It's the end justifies the means argument. Either we are a nation of laws, with a Constitution and the Bill of Rights, or we aren't. You don't get both ways.
jklaughrey
06-10-13, 15:26
Loss of life is tragic.
Loss of freedom is unforgivable.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
You would do all of what they are doing to save one life? Even ten or twenty or 100?
If that's the case then why the hell are you here when you could be rallying someplace against cars being legal, the construction of buildings and homes (people fall off them and die), swimming at public beaches (riptides are terrible) and heck even backyard pools (children fall into them).
Shall I go on?
There are things out of your control and things that you should be able to control.
You or I can't control what parent lets their small child fall into a pool and drown no matter how much we lecture them or require their doctors to lecture them. Idiots will still screw up.
We should have control over who can recklessly peruse and abuse our personal information without a damn warrant.
montanadave
06-10-13, 15:32
Listened to James Clapper tell Andrea Mitchell that folks should rest easy because the NSA (or others) don't plan on saving all this accumulated data (phone calls, emails, etc.). So we should have no concerns about this administration (or future administrations) digging around in all our personal communications tomorrow or next year or a decade from now.
Doesn't seem to jibe with one of the purposes of the NSA's huge new data center in Utah (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/), which is to chew away at encrypted data until they crack it.
"There is still one technology preventing untrammeled government access to private digital data: strong encryption. Anyone—from terrorists and weapons dealers to corporations, financial institutions, and ordinary email senders—can use it to seal their messages, plans, photos, and documents in hardened data shells. For years, one of the hardest shells has been the Advanced Encryption Standard, one of several algorithms used by much of the world to encrypt data. Available in three different strengths—128 bits, 192 bits, and 256 bits—it’s incorporated in most commercial email programs and web browsers and is considered so strong that the NSA has even approved its use for top-secret US government communications. Most experts say that a so-called brute-force computer attack on the algorithm—trying one combination after another to unlock the encryption—would likely take longer than the age of the universe. For a 128-bit cipher, the number of trial-and-error attempts would be 340 undecillion (1036).
Breaking into those complex mathematical shells like the AES is one of the key reasons for the construction going on in Bluffdale. That kind of cryptanalysis requires two major ingredients: super-fast computers to conduct brute-force attacks on encrypted messages and a massive number of those messages for the computers to analyze. The more messages from a given target, the more likely it is for the computers to detect telltale patterns, and Bluffdale will be able to hold a great many messages. “We questioned it one time,” says another source, a senior intelligence manager who was also involved with the planning. “Why were we building this NSA facility? And, boy, they rolled out all the old guys—the crypto guys.” According to the official, these experts told then-director of national intelligence Dennis Blair, “You’ve got to build this thing because we just don’t have the capability of doing the code-breaking.” It was a candid admission. In the long war between the code breakers and the code makers—the tens of thousands of cryptographers in the worldwide computer security industry—the code breakers were admitting defeat.
So the agency had one major ingredient—a massive data storage facility—under way. Meanwhile, across the country in Tennessee, the government was working in utmost secrecy on the other vital element: the most powerful computer the world has ever known."
The government isn't storing all this data for a rainy day (like the day they find the right algorithms to decipher encrypted communications). Yeah, right.
They're talking about storing yottabytes of information. The equivalent of 500 quintillion pages of text.
We've traded away our personal privacy for some illusion of security. And our freedom isn't going to be far behind.
We have been hoisted by our own petard.
[QUOTE=Koshinn;1668284]Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the REMOVAL OF YOUR RIGHTS/LIBERTY is worth the price of your sons and daughters lives?
A resounding- HELL NO!
How about you Koshinn?
I'll take Freedom > "Safety" any day. For without freedom, there is no such thing as "safety"...
Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the invasion of privacy is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
A good question, really.
How about this? If the question is about saving lives, why not say that all people receiving public housing assistance in Chicago have to submit to surprise housing inspections where authorities will tear the place apart looking for weapons and / or drugs. It would save many, many lives.
But then the same folks who want to take away our guns would quickly start quoting the Constitution, wouldn't they? And perhaps rightfully so. But I submit that it's not just about the erosion of our rights to save American lives. It's bigger than that.
ramairthree
06-10-13, 15:47
Just curious, if it
could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life,
would it
be OK to start reasonable gun laws? Infringe on your 2A rights?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where
rescinding the second ammendment
is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
__________________
There are things out of your control and things that you should be able to control.
You or I can't control what parent lets their small child fall into a pool and drown no matter how much we lecture them or require their doctors to lecture them. Idiots will still screw up.
Think about what you are saying here. Yes I can control my car, but surely not the one that veers into me. And I can fence my pool in, but that doesn't mean someone's visiting child or the venturous fence climbing neighborhood pre-teen next door won't drown in it.
Nothing is failsafe. It just doesn't work that way. Let them tap the lines of every suspected terrorist out there, but leave it at only that and help us understand only trustworthy, accountable individuals are leading the way.
VooDoo6Actual
06-10-13, 16:09
It's interesting to read the comments & rationalizations.
What's even more interesting is to know that someone is lying to the American people & people are OK with it. Here's one of my favorite rationalizations, oh no they really won't use it for nefarious/control/overeach of power under color & authority of the ROL.
Regardless of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
i.e. AP / Fox / F&F / Bengazi / Drones / IRS / 'Cloakroom' being Monitored / BOR / Constitution.
PT Barnum was right !
NO.
NO
This is NOT the popular view in the country. Right or wrong.
C4
Just curious, if it
could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life,
would it
be OK to start reasonable gun laws? Infringe on your 2A rights?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where
rescinding the second ammendment
is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
__________________
Not an equivalent comparison, the 2A saves lives. Repealing it won't save any more.
It's also interesting that some people would give anything for their children to be safe, others draw the line at privacy. Not saying I agree or disagree. I don't have children, so I'm not qualified to answer. I have no idea how I'd feel with kids.
jklaughrey
06-10-13, 16:21
This is NOT the popular view in the country. Right or wrong.
C4
If being popular and right under this twisted logic administration is what they want.... I'd have to cut off my balls, get a lobotomy, and call myself Francisssss the liberal hipster.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Listened to James Clapper tell Andrea Mitchell that folks should rest easy because the NSA (or others) don't plan on saving all this accumulated data (phone calls, emails, etc.). So we should have no concerns about this administration (or future administrations) digging around in all our personal communications tomorrow or next year or a decade from now.
Doesn't seem to jibe with one of the purposes of the NSA's huge new data center in Utah (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/), which is to chew away at encrypted data until they crack it.
"There is still one technology preventing untrammeled government access to private digital data: strong encryption. Anyone—from terrorists and weapons dealers to corporations, financial institutions, and ordinary email senders—can use it to seal their messages, plans, photos, and documents in hardened data shells. For years, one of the hardest shells has been the Advanced Encryption Standard, one of several algorithms used by much of the world to encrypt data. Available in three different strengths—128 bits, 192 bits, and 256 bits—it’s incorporated in most commercial email programs and web browsers and is considered so strong that the NSA has even approved its use for top-secret US government communications. Most experts say that a so-called brute-force computer attack on the algorithm—trying one combination after another to unlock the encryption—would likely take longer than the age of the universe. For a 128-bit cipher, the number of trial-and-error attempts would be 340 undecillion (1036).
Breaking into those complex mathematical shells like the AES is one of the key reasons for the construction going on in Bluffdale. That kind of cryptanalysis requires two major ingredients: super-fast computers to conduct brute-force attacks on encrypted messages and a massive number of those messages for the computers to analyze. The more messages from a given target, the more likely it is for the computers to detect telltale patterns, and Bluffdale will be able to hold a great many messages. “We questioned it one time,” says another source, a senior intelligence manager who was also involved with the planning. “Why were we building this NSA facility? And, boy, they rolled out all the old guys—the crypto guys.” According to the official, these experts told then-director of national intelligence Dennis Blair, “You’ve got to build this thing because we just don’t have the capability of doing the code-breaking.” It was a candid admission. In the long war between the code breakers and the code makers—the tens of thousands of cryptographers in the worldwide computer security industry—the code breakers were admitting defeat.
So the agency had one major ingredient—a massive data storage facility—under way. Meanwhile, across the country in Tennessee, the government was working in utmost secrecy on the other vital element: the most powerful computer the world has ever known."
The government isn't storing all this data for a rainy day (like the day they find the right algorithms to decipher encrypted communications). Yeah, right.
They're talking about storing yottabytes of information. The equivalent of 500 quintillion pages of text.
We've traded away our personal privacy for some illusion of security. And or freedom isn't going to be far behind.
We have been hoisted by our own petard.
So I ask again, rhetorically of course, how in the living hell do we stop it from being built or going into operation?
I posted this back in early March.
Top U.S. intelligence officials gathered in the White House Situation Room in March [2012] to debate a controversial proposal. Counterterrorism officials wanted to create a government dragnet, sweeping up millions of records about U.S. citizens —even people suspected of no crime. Not everyone was on board. "This is a sea change in the way that the government interacts with the general public," Mary Ellen Callahan, chief privacy officer of the Department of Homeland Security, argued in the meeting, according to people familiar with the discussions. A week later, the attorney general signed the changes into effect.
I had never heard of the NCTC...had to look them up.
Now, NCTC can copy entire government databases—flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and many others. The agency has new authority to keep data about innocent U.S. citizens for up to five years, and to analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior. Previously, both were prohibited. Data about Americans "reasonably believed to constitute terrorism information" may be permanently retained.
The list could potentially include almost any government database, from financial forms submitted by people seeking federally backed mortgages to the health records of people who sought treatment at Veterans Administration hospitals.
Late last year, for instance, NCTC obtained an entire database from Homeland Security for analysis, according to a person familiar with the transaction. Homeland Security provided the disks on the condition that NCTC would remove all innocent U.S. person data after 30 days. After 30 days, a Homeland Security team visited and found that the data hadn't yet been removed. In fact, NCTC hadn't even finished uploading the files to its own computers, that person said. It can take weeks simply to upload and organize the mammoth data sets. Homeland Security granted a 30-day extension. That deadline was missed, too. So Homeland Security revoked NCTC's access to the data.
U.S. Terrorism Agency to Tap a Vast Database of Citizens (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324478304578171623040640006.html)
If being popular and right under this twisted logic administration is what they want.... I'd have to cut off my balls, get a lobotomy, and call myself Francisssss the liberal hipster.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Again, not arguing with you (or anyone). Understand that the VAST majority of Americans TRUST the Govt and believe that in order to protect them, they need to give up certain things.
Some will even tell you that if they used said data to restrict rights from certain people (or groups), they would be fine with that as well.
Remember that most people are "ok" with things just as long as it doesn't impact them. Case in point, when poor or young people (college age) think it is a good idea to raise taxes on the "rich." They do not realize that they are screwing themselves in the future (as they will most likely become wealthier as time goes by).
C4
Moose-Knuckle
06-10-13, 16:29
It's interesting to read the comments & rationalizations.
Indeed.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/kool-aid-man-benjamin-franklin.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/kool-aid-man-benjamin-franklin.jpg.html)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/ben_franklin_on_liberty_and_safety_poster-_zps139bbc99.jpg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/AKS-74/media/ben_franklin_on_liberty_and_safety_poster-_zps139bbc99.jpg.html)
This is NOT the popular view in the country. Right or wrong.
C4
And THAT is truly pathetic. :(
And THAT is truly pathetic. :(
To me, it runs along the same lines of people that think we shouldn't be allowed to owed a semi-auto weapon and a 100rd mag.
They cannot or don't want to protect themselves (need the Govt to do it).
C4
I know that we have a lot of .Mil folks in here. I wonder how many of them realize that most of their rights to privacy (specifically in the form of snail mail, e-mail and phone conversations were/are being monitored by the Military)?
Those of us that come from Intel backgrounds knew that we had given up all rights to privacy a long, long time ago. I used to receive ALL my mail opened, phone conversations being listened too, e-mail read, bank accounts monitored, polygraphs (espionage and lifestyle), etc etc.
Lots of fun so the rest of the populace might as well join in. :D
C4
jklaughrey
06-10-13, 16:41
Again, not arguing with you (or anyone). Understand that the VAST majority of Americans TRUST the Govt and believe that in order to protect them, they need to give up certain things.
Some will even tell you that if they used said data to restrict rights from certain people (or groups), they would be fine with that as well.
Remember that most people are "ok" with things just as long as it doesn't impact them. Case in point, when poor or young people (college age) think it is a good idea to raise taxes on the "rich." They do not realize that they are screwing themselves in the future (as they will most likely become wealthier as time goes by).
C4
Oh trust me Grant. I see this logic every time I go to the inlaws. Scares me that in some way they might use their time with my children as a way to indoctrinate them into future socialists.
Thank God, they spend more time with the "caveman", they call Dad.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
To me, it runs along the same lines of people that think we shouldn't be allowed to owed a semi-auto weapon and a 100rd mag.
They cannot or don't want to protect themselves (need the Govt to do it).
C4
Agreed, and I wasn't inferring that you condoned it.
That a majority of AMERICANS are perfectly OK with being spied upon under the guise of preventing crime makes me want to cry, puke and throat punch a puppy, all at the same time.
I've had face to face arguments with friends/family that are in the "I have nothing to hide, so it doesn't bother me" camp and it makes me want to scratch out my own eyes! Pathetic fools, undeserving of the freedoms others fought to preserve for them. :(
It's interesting to read the comments & rationalizations.
PT Barnum was right !
Correct on both accounts.
I'll go a bit further than "interesting" and say it is down right worrisome- how they can justify such blatant tyrannical activity- all in the name of the biggest smoke and mirrors BS ever put forth- safety; as if safety ever has or will exist in our reality/existence...
Safety is a misnomer when used to motivate people to give up their rights, what it really means is "Control"- as in give up your rights so we have more control- they can promise you safety for giving up your rights- but never uphold there end of the bargain- ever. And we only ever end up with less rights, never more safety. <---See all of history as evidence.
It's also interesting that some people would give anything for their children to be safe, others draw the line at privacy.
To me anyway it has all of nothing to do with personal privacy in comparison with the overall authoritarian precedent being set by those who ignore the sensible boundaries we appear to recklessly take for granted.
Gutshot John
06-10-13, 16:59
My solution...just a thought.
"We're all in this together kid." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teufz17PqoY&feature=youtu.be)
montanadave
06-10-13, 17:07
My solution...just a thought.
"We're all in this together kid." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teufz17PqoY&feature=youtu.be)
You find the manifold, I'll swap the hoses!
jklaughrey
06-10-13, 17:15
Correct on both accounts.
I'll go a bit further than "interesting" and say it is down right worrisome- how they can justify such blatant tyrannical activity- all in the name of the biggest smoke and mirrors BS ever put forth- safety; as if safety ever has or will exist in our reality/existence...
Safety is a misnomer when used to motivate people to give up their rights, what it really means is "Control"- as in give up your rights so we have more control- they can promise you safety for giving up your rights- but never uphold there end of the bargain- ever. And we only ever end up with less rights, never more safety. <---See all of history as evidence.
" Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium"
I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.
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VooDoo6Actual
06-10-13, 17:21
Correct on both accounts.
I'll go a bit further than "interesting" and say it is down right worrisome- how they can justify such blatant tyrannical activity- all in the name of the biggest smoke and mirrors BS ever put forth- safety; as if safety ever has or will exist in our reality/existence...
Safety is a misnomer when used to motivate people to give up their rights, what it really means is "Control"- as in give up your rights so we have more control- they can promise you safety for giving up your rights- but never uphold there end of the bargain- ever. And we only ever end up with less rights, never more safety. <---See all of history as evidence.
Indeed.
"You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." (even by enhanced interrogation techniques like water boarding)
MountainRaven
06-10-13, 17:29
Just curious, if this could be proven without a doubt to have directly led to the saving of an innocent American life, would it have been worth the invasion of privacy?
How about ten lives? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? An entire city? Is there ever a point where the invasion of privacy is worth the price of your son or daughter's life?
"Freedom isn't free," is not just a cute phrase to describe the sacrifices made by America's fighting men and women.
It means that you have to pay a price for your freedoms, in gold or in blood. Since the gold is overwhelmingly controlled by a small group of people... guess what that means the rest of us get to pay with?
My solution...just a thought.
"We're all in this together kid." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teufz17PqoY&feature=youtu.be)
If I understand your metaphor correctly, you're calling for DNS attacks on the government?
:eek:
Gutshot John
06-10-13, 17:33
If I understand your metaphor correctly, you're calling for DNS attacks on the government?
:eek:
Metaphor? :no:
That said? DNS poisoning? I'm liking it, but to be anything more than annoyance it will require some serious techie know-how. That would be a historic hack along the lines of Komodo. I think a sustained LOIC or other DDOS strike on those servers might be more feasible but would require some serious numbers of motivated individuals.
MountainRaven
06-10-13, 17:54
Metaphor? :no:
That said? DNS poisoning? I'm liking it, but to be anything more than annoyance it will require some serious techie know-how. That would be a historic hack along the lines of Komodo. I think a sustained LOIC or other DDOS strike on those servers might be more feasible but would require some serious numbers of motivated individuals.
I'm surprised Anonymous hasn't done anything... yet.
davidjinks
06-10-13, 17:57
To hell with all of this bullshit!
I want no security if I cannot have my liberty and freedom!
As we discussed before...ask someone if they WANT security or to FEEL secure. We both know what the answers usually are.
You can all take you government dragnet and stick it! There is no reason this should be happening to 300,000,000 free citizens in this country. No reason at all!
This writing has been on the wall for several years. Obama sucks as a president but its not just him. Thank Bush, Clinton.....it's actually pointless to continue naming the scourge of our free republic.
Of course too many people have had their heads up their collective fourth point of contact and refused to listen or even entertain the idea that this shit it in fact real.
Maybe the tin foil roll was short or something. Oh wait, that's what many of the blind have been yelling at those who actually realized this crap was actually happening, in real life, for real.
It's interesting to read the comments & rationalizations.
What's even more interesting is to know that someone is lying to the American people & people are OK with it. Here's one of my favorite rationalizations, oh no they really won't use it for nefarious/control/overeach of power under color & authority of the ROL.
Regardless of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
i.e. AP / Fox / F&F / Bengazi / Drones / IRS / 'Cloakroom' being Monitored / BOR / Constitution.
PT Barnum was right !
Gutshot John
06-10-13, 18:06
I think the metaphor of Brazil, and mostly my outrage at the series of examples is that the tyranny isn't some far away political leader, it was casual and in your face. It's the banality of all of it that I find so troubling. No one is having fingernails pulled, or being rounded up in concentration camps. I'm tired of that straw man as a pre-requisite to halt encroachments on privacy.
The IRS, the NSA, the DOJ, these are not problems created by some left-wing right-wing or some other political agenda, it is those agencies punishing those that resist their authority, sometimes even those ostensibly in political or other power positions.
People have no idea what the potential of all this data is. Just look at the last election if you want a clue. Whether they are doing it now is irrelevant...someday, someone's going to flip a switch...boom, all the information they want on you gets leaked to the press.
They don't need medical records to guess what medications you are taking, by data mining they can guess with almost 100% certainty, how you will vote, what medical treatment you're getting, what your priest, shrink or lawyer should only know about you. Just by embarrassment most people will stop even if there is little actual proof that they did anything wrong.
Even still, how can anyone trust that this government will not target citizens who disagree with them using these tools? IRS anyone? AP? Fox?
I'm not a tin-foil hat type in the slightest but...
<<<ERROR>>>
<<<ENDOFLINE>>>
Gutshot John
06-10-13, 18:07
:haha:
My .02 but I'm finding it beyond irritating that certain individuals in the gov keep hammering away at the notion that this leak some has diminished our national security in anyway shape or form. I mean everyone "knew" this was going on but we never really had the smoking gun until now so to speak. So because conventional wisdom was such that everyone knew this was happening somehow our nations enemies couldn't put two and two together? :rolleyes:
VooDoo6Actual
06-10-13, 18:26
To hell with all of this bullshit!
I want no security if I cannot have my liberty and freedom!
As we discussed before...ask someone if they WANT security or to FEEL secure. We both know what the answers usually are.
You can all take you government dragnet and stick it! There is no reason this should be happening to 300,000,000 free citizens in this country. No reason at all!
This writing has been on the wall for several years. Obama sucks as a president but its not just him. Thank Bush, Clinton.....it's actually pointless to continue naming the scourge of our free republic.
Of course too many people have had their heads up their collective fourth point of contact and refused to listen or even entertain the idea that this shit it in fact real.
Maybe the tin foil roll was short or something. Oh wait, that's what many of the blind have been yelling at those who actually realized this crap was actually happening, in real life, for real.
It was decided long ago. We just weren't CC'd / BCC'd on that memo, although it's been there in mostly plain sight. I would venture to say that Kennedy (& I know I'm not the only one with this mindset) was the last real President in modern times. I think soon if not by now, the masses are or are in process to the enlightenment. The PTB needed a few pieces to finish their masterpiece to humanity for the greater good (which BTW is unproven). The funniest thing about it is that the sheeple think they will have a a chair left when the music stops & be protected. History is going to repeat itself in some aspects in one form or another w/o a doubt.
When you have LAR's w/ a actual treaty or UN ENMOD treaty (circa 77') & no one talks about it here on M4C or the news, that would be a huge clue.
The outcome of that uncertainty & questions are what remains...
davidjinks
06-10-13, 18:38
Succession.......
It was decided long ago. We just weren't CC'd / BCC'd on that memo, although it's been there in mostly plain sight. I would venture to say that Kennedy (& I know I'm not the only one with this mindset) was the last real President in modern times. I think soon if not by now, the masses are or are in process to the enlightenment. The PTB needed a few pieces to finish their masterpiece to humanity for the greater good (which BTW is unproven). The funniest thing about it is that the sheeple think they will have a a chair left when the music stops & be protected. History is going to repeat itself in some aspects one form or another w/o a doubt.
When you have LAR's w/ a actual treaty or UN ENMOD treaty (circa 77') & no one talks about it here on M4C or the news, that would be a huge clue.
The outcome of that uncertainty & questions are what remains...
VooDoo6Actual
06-10-13, 18:40
Succession.......
either Terra Firma or another realm ... succession indeed
I still don't know whether to laugh or cry over the fact that DiFi chairs in the senate intel committee.
HackerF15E
06-10-13, 19:08
Succession.......
Succession of what?
Succession of what?
They are referring to a revolution.
HackerF15E
06-10-13, 19:47
They are referring to a revolution.
So, they meant to say "secession"? As in "secede from the Union"?
Pretty significant difference in meaning between that and "succession".
VooDoo6Actual
06-10-13, 19:53
So, they meant to say "secession"? As in "secede from the Union"?
Pretty significant difference in meaning between that and "succession".
It actually was not what I was referring to at all.
Sort of related: does anyone here fly commercial airlines?
SeriousStudent
06-10-13, 20:25
I have an excellent idea. Let's not put words in people's mouths.
A quick trip to Ye Olde Dictionary gives these results:
succession: the act or process of following in order
seccession: formal withdrawal from an organization
If people want to substitute words for others, be my guest. But don't do it on this forum.
If the man says that was not what he meant, then it's not what he meant. Accord him the same respect you ask for yourself.
And, now we're back on topic.....
HackerF15E
06-10-13, 20:36
I have an excellent idea. Let's not put words in people's mouths.
I just asked the question (post 225), and later asked another question to clarify the answer to that question (post 227 -- you'll notice the question mark at the end of both sentences).
How's that putting words into someone else's mouth? I'm asking for clarity, not stating anything.
HackerF15E
06-10-13, 20:36
It actually was not what I was referring to at all.
Okay, I understand that now...so what were you referring to?
Okay, I understand that now...so what were you referring to?
He is talking to me.
I have an excellent idea. Let's not put words in people's mouths.
A quick trip to Ye Olde Dictionary gives these results:
succession: the act or process of following in order
seccession: formal withdrawal from an organization
If people want to substitute words for others, be my guest. But don't do it on this forum.
If the man says that was not what he meant, then it's not what he meant. Accord him the same respect you ask for yourself.
And, now we're back on topic.....
I happened upon this response and saw that Hacker just posted while replying. Anyway that was my mistake and I apologize to V6A and ask that he remember my short lived call for his nomination to VP.
Remember now I was serious by the way. ;)
davidjinks
06-10-13, 21:13
Here's the "Wiki" definition for SUCCESSION:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession
My personal opinion is:
Everything that is happening now is happening for a reason. The end result will be, we as a republic of free citizens will stop being that republic of free citizens. We will exist as "have nots" as apposed to the "haves".
The laws that have been written, the EOs that have been passed, the elitist heads that pump money into the pockets of those we have elected...
The true purpose is to end this country and begin something new. From the birth of the federal reserve all the way up to the NDAA. It's been a plan for control and dominance. As every day passes it seems like more and more control is achieved.
Hell, there are American citizens right now who said they're OK with what the government has been doing. Some people aren't even sure how they feel about it. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I'm NOT OK with what the government has been and is doing.
How many of you have read the Patriot Act? Any of the EOs issued since Bush Sr? The NDAA and all those preceding the NDAA? The billions of dollars being pumped into the NSA over the last 8 years? The trillions given out for free to elitist corporations? The financial catastrophes that have occurred over the last 8 years? The failure of finances globally?
Succession of what?
montanadave
06-10-13, 21:52
I'm as pissed about the government surveilling it's own citizens like Orwell's "Big Brother" as the next guy, but let's face it, this information is all in the hands of corporate Amerika as well and, frankly, I don't trust them anymore than Uncle Sam.
When I went through the whole identity theft shuffle a few months back, all I heard from every credit agency, bank official, and law enforcement agency was how simple it was for anyone with half a brain to gather up enough of anyone's personal data to turn their life upside down.
Whether it was for convenience, efficiency, or an illusion of security, most of us have willingly surrendered our privacy and stuck our own heads right into the noose that's soon to hang us.
The genie is out of the bottle and I am reminded of a quote from Albert Einstein: "The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them."
The data is out there and the technology which defines our modern world assures that same data can be gathered, analyzed, and used against us. How we preserve some semblance of privacy and our constitutional rights when we are rapidly being assimilated into the collective hive-mind of the Borg is a riddle yet to be solved.
In light of our current circumstances, E Pluribus Unum has begun to take on a rather ominous tone. Let's just hope it isn't soon replaced by Repugnantia Est Futilis (or however one says "resistance is futile" in latin).
SeriousStudent
06-10-13, 22:15
Data privacy and security is what I do for a living, for part of corporate America. I can lose my job, get fined, or even go to jail for mishandling customer data. I have seen precisely that happen to people I know.
One of the differences is that there is an adversarial relationship in business. Verizon is not in the habit of sharing large amounts of data with AT&T. I completely understand there is competition for resources between orgs like the FBI and CIA.
But cooperation can be ordered there, by the Executive branch or Congress. That makes this much more dangerous, in my opinion.
montanadave
06-11-13, 08:09
Can't find a link to the clip right now and have to head out the door, but just caught a snippet of John Oliver filling in for Jon Stewart on The Daily Show last night.
While discussing the current NSA kerfuffle, he quipped, "I bet the Amish are feeling pretty ****ing smug right now. Or they would, if they would be feeling that way if they had any idea that this story was happening."
:D
So do you all see this guy as a Hero or a Traitor?
I would love to see a nationwide poll on this & have lots of questions on his actions about touching down in China. Curious why he bolted there & thinking it would be his safest place for asylum?? Now they say he's checked out of his hotel in Hong Kong & you gotta love the choice of words on today's foxnews.com.
Snowden's whereabouts on Tuesday were unknown, a day after he checked out of a trendy hotel in the Chinese territory of Hong Kong. But large photos of his face were splashed on most Hong Kong newspapers with headlines such as Deep Throat Hides in HK," and "World's Most Wanted Man Breaks Cover in Hong Kong
My thoughts in a nut shell?? I'm not gonna pick patriot or traitor right now.
~ I am glad he woke up a few folks, but I fear no fallout just like all the crap coming out from this admin....like teflon??
~ It's bothersome some are surprised & say they are upset, and yet nobody will take a fall and the surprised vanish back into their own little worlds.
~ Mostly I'm mad so many still just don't give a crap about all the issues this admin is involved in...the list that was posted made me feel a little ill for a second. I want off this ride.
But I digress, seriously...what will/would Chinese officials do if/when they catch this guy?? What are their thoughts on the matter as I'm guessing they don't care what us civis are yakking about in general.
If they can crack into/past our own govt. firewalls & find some serious intel, what does this guy have to offer?? Doesn't seem to me China would care about what possible constitution laws were broken within our borders if it doesn't affect China?? I'm sure they have the system of listening in on their own to a fine art, so don't need his asistance??
Sorry for the rambing but I don't see them torturing him for info that does not appear to me would help them...I think they are just diggin being able to gloat about an American taking refuge on their dirt.
Maybe they could start selling bloopers compilations of drunk dialers, breakup calls, and other stupidity to raise money to pay off the national debt?
So, beyond the "hero or traitor" debate that's going on now, what's the consensus view on how this compares or contrasts with Julian Assange and WikiLeaks?
From my perspective, it comes down to motivation. Assange is just an ego-maniacal turd with an axe to grind against the US. I don't get that vibe from Snowden.
Gutshot John
06-11-13, 10:47
So, beyond the "hero or traitor" debate that's going on now, what's the consensus view on how this compares or contrasts with Julian Assange and WikiLeaks?
From my perspective, it comes down to motivation. Assange is just an ego-maniacal turd with an axe to grind against the US. I don't get that vibe from Snowden.
I think the big difference is two fold:
1. Julian Assange can't be prosecuted for leaking classified intel (he's got no clearance), he hides behind others who break the law for him, and doesn't seem to care about anything other than his own ego/vanity.
2. Edward Snowden saw something that outraged him, broke a law for a higher moral purpose, and is prepared to pay the consequences if he has to. He didn't want this notoriety, he wanted a job, but he realized that he couldn't live with himself.
Hero? Maybe, maybe not, but by golly he's got balls and he has character.
Part of the question I have is how a person without any kind of formal degree (high school diploma) is getting a $200K/year job with Booz Allen. Most people I know coming out of a MS program in information security aren't getting anywhere near that money and Booz is notorious for low-balling salaries.
brickboy240
06-11-13, 11:15
Very different if you ask me.
Assange was an attention whore and did this because he hated America.
This guy had a conscience and gave up quite a bit to come forward and it weighed heavy on his mind, the power his position gave him.
If you cannot see a difference between Assange and this guy...well...I cannot help you.
-brickboy240
A better comparison is Manning to Snowden.
brickboy240
06-11-13, 11:25
Yeah but didn't Manning do it as a sort of protest against Bush's involvement in Iraq?
Snowden's motives seem much better than Manning's sure did.
-brickboy240
Gutshot John
06-11-13, 12:05
Manning is trying to claim he isn't guilty, when he clearly broke the law, and is trying to avoid the consequences for his actions.
Snowden acknowledges he broke the law and said he's willing to pay the price for that.
Big difference.
Mauser KAR98K
06-11-13, 12:09
Add that Manning outed guys who were in deep cover in real terrorist cells, and also trusted informant.
But yall, hate to tell you, this is going no where as "polls" indicate that the majority of American's are behind this.
http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/
We got to find them terrorist.
brickboy240
06-11-13, 12:36
The "problem" with the "we are doing this to thwart terrorists" line is that if you look deeper...they have not always used the info they find to stop them.
The Army knew all about Major Hassan long before he shot those people at Ft. Hood. They made no moves to contain this kook or remove him. People got killed.
Didn't we know long before the planes hit the towers that these guys were in America on expired visas? Knew they were in flight schools? I think we did.
Didn't the FBI talk with one of the Boston bombers many years before the bombs went off? Again....they did nothing about removing the guy and bombs went off.
Don't we currently have thousands of mid-east students here on expired student visas and nobody is making in-roads into deporting them...are they?
So don't be so quick to believe this "we are doing this all to stop terrorists" line.
It just does not pass the smell test.
-brickboy240
Moose-Knuckle
06-11-13, 14:58
The "problem" with the "we are doing this to thwart terrorists" line is that if you look deeper...they have not always used the info they find to stop them.
The Army knew all about Major Hassan long before he shot those people at Ft. Hood. They made no moves to contain this kook or remove him. People got killed.
Didn't we know long before the planes hit the towers that these guys were in America on expired visas? Knew they were in flight schools? I think we did.
Didn't the FBI talk with one of the Boston bombers many years before the bombs went off? Again....they did nothing about removing the guy and bombs went off.
Don't we currently have thousands of mid-east students here on expired student visas and nobody is making in-roads into deporting them...are they?
So don't be so quick to believe this "we are doing this all to stop terrorists" line.
It just does not pass the smell test.
-brickboy240
It is much deeper than that. Read up on a DIA op known as Able Danger.
brickboy240
06-11-13, 16:50
I know about Able Danger...I was oversimplifying things...I admit.
Still....plenty of examples where our snooping govt. KNEW about terrorists but did nothing and they struck.
So why believe them when they say all this snooping is to thwart terrorists?
Sorry...not buying it.
Remember Big Sis called Tea Party types and returning vets possible terrorists.
-brickboy240
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