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NetJunkie
04-04-08, 18:53
My primary HD weapon is an HK45 loaded with HSTs. An M4 will be a backup. Which TAP is recommended? I know most people go with the 75gr but I want to have the least amount of penetration through sheetrock. Houses here are close together. The lightest TAP be the best?

skyugo
04-05-08, 09:37
somethign light and frangible is probably the way to go. you're unlikely to be facing body armor, and a double tap at 10-20 foot ranges from a carbine will put anyone out of the fight.

decodeddiesel
04-05-08, 12:28
I would stay away from the 75gr (heavy) stuff. I have seen the barrier penetration capabilities of this ammo (Mk262) in Iraq. If it nasty stuff, 1 layer sheet rock would have virtually no effect on it. I would suggest some 55 grain TAP or M193.

Alaskapopo
04-05-08, 16:11
I like the 75 grain Tap and I selected it as the duty ammo for my department. Anything with sufficient penetration to ensure good stopping power is going to penetrate several walls inside a home. Deal with it and don't miss.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/556_68_762_comparison.jpg

Failure2Stop
04-05-08, 16:22
Anything with enough mass and velocity to consistently meet the FBI protocols for penetration will penetrate sheetrock. Most .223/5.56 will penetrate less than your .45 HST though.

The best performing bullet should be selected based on performance when applied to targets. If you are concerned about your childern/loved ones, the best thing you can do is incapacitate the lethal threat inside your home as quickly as possible. While M193 is a decent performer, the best out there right now is the 75gr TAP, which outperforms the 77gr SMKs (MK262 Mod 1) significantly, at all distances, and is very good at close range.

SHIVAN
04-05-08, 17:55
Your primary concern, if you need to deploy your weapon AND shoot someone, should be with stopping that threat.

55gr TAP, and many other .223/5.56rds, are not ideal for meeting the penetration requirments listed above. Which make them a no-go in my mind.

Use the BG as a bullet trap, and use the best round possible. That's 75gr TAP if you want to stick to Hornady.

PALADIN-hgwt
04-05-08, 18:41
xxxxx

skyugo
04-05-08, 19:29
Your primary concern, if you need to deploy your weapon AND shoot someone, should be with stopping that threat.

55gr TAP, and many other .223/5.56rds, are not ideal for meeting the penetration requirments listed above. Which make them a no-go in my mind.

Use the BG as a bullet trap, and use the best round possible. That's 75gr TAP if you want to stick to Hornady.

55 grain served the military pretty well for awhile. i'd hardly call it insufficient. it beats the crap out of a 9mm.

Alaskapopo
04-05-08, 19:35
55 grain served the military pretty well for awhile. i'd hardly call it insufficient. it beats the crap out of a 9mm.

55 grain ball is ok but it is not nearly as effective as 75 grain Tap. Yes it beats a pistol round. Who cares it beats a sharp stick in the eye as well. If you want the best load going right now for stopping power in a .223/5.56 get 75 grain Tap.
Pat

Failure2Stop
04-05-08, 19:37
55 grain served the military pretty well for awhile. i'd hardly call it insufficient. it beats the crap out of a 9mm.

Not all 55gr bullets are created equal.

SHIVAN
04-05-08, 19:52
55 grain served the military pretty well for awhile. i'd hardly call it insufficient. it beats the crap out of a 9mm.

Please re-read what I wrote. If you'd like to compare M193 to the ammo I specified please provide a reliable online, or paper print, source for the US military using Hornady 55gr Tactical Application Police (TAP) ammunition.

It's been demonstrated, by DocGKR and others, that of the Hornady TAP line the 75gr performs the absolute level best of all the weights available.

In short M193 (55gr) is not an equivalent to 55gr TAP -- it may perform better or worse but it's certainly not the same. It certainly is not as widely recognized as a stellar performer as 75gr TAP.

NetJunkie
04-05-08, 21:49
Thanks guys. Good stuff here without the 12 pages of BS on arf. My goal is to limit the number of layers of sheetrock penetrated..not stop on the first. But you're probably right about it penetrating less than the big .45HST I currently load.

Can I get the regular 5.56 TAP and not the .223 TAP FPD?

SHIVAN
04-05-08, 22:00
I've seen the 5.56 available, in fact....I think G&R Tactical gets it in stock from time to time. Like now: 5.56 TAP - 75gr (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8126N&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DHORN)

Pretty much anything worth shooting someone with is going to go through a few layers of sheetrock. Try not to miss. ;)

Shihan
04-05-08, 22:42
the 75gr TAP, which outperforms the 77gr SMKs (MK262 Mod 1) significantly, at all distances, and is very good at close range.

Please tell more.

Shihan
04-05-08, 22:43
My primary HD weapon is an HK45 loaded with HSTs. An M4 will be a backup. Which TAP is recommended? I know most people go with the 75gr but I want to have the least amount of penetration through sheetrock. Houses here are close together. The lightest TAP be the best?

If you are able to access ityour AR is a much better choice than any handgun.

skyugo
04-06-08, 01:15
so how's 75 grain tap compare to 55 grain FMJ as far as overpentration?

it still tumbles on impact right? :confused:

Alaskapopo
04-06-08, 01:29
so how's 75 grain tap compare to 55 grain FMJ as far as overpentration?

it still tumbles on impact right? :confused:

It fragments on impact look at the picture I posted a few posts up.
Pat

jmart
04-06-08, 15:29
I'd base my selection based on what's on the other side of the sheetrock. If you have loved ones one room away, then a 55-60 TAP would be my choice. They still penetrate 8-10" (maybe more for the 60) and you do get the benefit of temp cavity affects at rifle velocity speeds. But if your concern is going through two/three layers before you get to a neighbors house, then I would suspect the 75 would be the better choice.

decodeddiesel
04-07-08, 09:54
While M193 is a decent performer, the best out there right now is the 75gr TAP, which outperforms the 77gr SMKs (MK262 Mod 1) significantly, at all distances, and is very good at close range.

Really? I am afraid I have not seen real world results with 75gr 5.56 TAP yet so this is very interesting data. Do you have a link to any independent testing? I have seen test data comparing Mk262, M855, and M193 (sensitive so I cannot share) as well as real world results (on humans) with Mk262 and M855. However I have yet to find any 3rd party TAP testing as compared to NATO spec rounds.

Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 10:06
Anything with enough mass and velocity to consistently meet the FBI protocols for penetration will penetrate sheetrock. Most .223/5.56 will penetrate less than your .45 HST though.

The best performing bullet should be selected based on performance when applied to targets. If you are concerned about your childern/loved ones, the best thing you can do is incapacitate the lethal threat inside your home as quickly as possible. While M193 is a decent performer, the best out there right now is the 75gr TAP, which outperforms the 77gr SMKs (MK262 Mod 1) significantly, at all distances, and is very good at close range.

How were these 'outperfomances' found? Was it on test mediums? Or on actual people?

Being an issue round the MK262 has been used on a lot of humans and with great results.

Failure2Stop
04-07-08, 15:33
RE: MK262 Mod 1 vs 75 gr 5.56 TAP

Test results from DocGKR (Dr, if you see anything wrong with this info or my use of your data, just let me know and it will disappear).

The TAP has a shorter neck before yaw and fragmentation and deeper penetration than the MK262. Wound profiles are similar, but open sooner with the TAP. The MK262 is an excellent performer, but the TAP is a little better and more consistent.

This is my understanding, I did not participate in any actual testing, I am simply passing on the results I have seen and is already public knowledge.

decodeddiesel
04-07-08, 16:11
Very cool! Good stuff to know, thanks F2S!

SHIVAN
04-07-08, 16:27
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/myhomepage/77grSMK.jpg

I am not sure this is Mk262 specifically, but it is from DocGKR's testing.

Redhat
04-07-08, 20:24
F2S,

Are there also gel test results for the 55 gr TAP?

Thanks

SHIVAN
04-07-08, 20:43
This is 55gr VMAX to give an idea of how 55gr TAP using the VMAX bullet will do.

http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=775&stc=1&d=1207618967

Failure2Stop
04-08-08, 14:01
This is 55gr VMAX to give an idea of how 55gr TAP using the VMAX bullet will do.


Agree.

DocGKR
04-08-08, 16:08
"Failure2stop" provided completely accurate information in the above posts.


"Really? I am afraid I have not seen real world results with 75gr 5.56 TAP yet so this is very interesting data. Do you have a link to any independent testing? I have seen test data comparing Mk262, M855, and M193 (sensitive so I cannot share) as well as real world results (on humans) with Mk262 and M855. However I have yet to find any 3rd party TAP testing as compared to NATO spec rounds."


"How were these 'outperfomances' found? Was it on test mediums? Or on actual people? Being an issue round the MK262 has been used on a lot of humans and with great results."

There are significant laboratory and forensic data sets on most common 5.56 mm projectiles; as such, there is a tremendous amount of "real world results" on "actual people" with Hornady 75 gr OTM, as it has been used by some DOD units for over a decade, as well as by innumerable LE agencies in many OIS incidents. I presented autopsy results on several 75 gr OTM shootings at a Patrol Carbine class I taught at a large neighboring agency yesterday--all of those shootings had very favorable terminal effects for the officers involved...

RAM Engineer
04-08-08, 19:05
Any info on the newer "T2" bullet that Hornady is using?

DocGKR
04-08-08, 21:49
Yes, it works well.