View Full Version : Nighthawk vs. Wilson Combat
I am about to display my profound ignorance of this subject.:confused:
I'm just curious about this: what's the difference between the two? I haven't been able to find a comparison anywhere and at this point I'm thinking that whichever I choose is gonna be the one that feels better than the other.
Made by the same people, outa the same stuff, in the same town?
Enlighten me!
Thanks...
High Tower
06-08-13, 18:42
From what I recall, the Nighthawk folks split away from Wilson a few years back to start their own shop. They both make great 1911's.
BoringGuy45
06-08-13, 19:47
Never had the cash to purchase a pistol from either company, but I've bought components for my 1911 from both companies. Outstanding parts and outstanding customer service (emails and inquiries are often returned within an hour or two) from both companies.
Personally I prefer the original GI guide rod as opposed to the reverse plug or full length rod that Wilson uses in almost all their pistols; I've noticed that NH uses the GI in more of their pistols, so I lean towards them. However, to each his own; both are top notch companies.
Both are outstanding weapons. The Wilson seems to be a bit more refined, while the Nighthawk line is more of a work pistol. Either would be a great choice, quality of work and attention to detail are impeccable. This is a can't lose decision, I bought a NHC.
I've owned multiple examples of each and both companies make great weapons. The WC Armortuff finish holds up better than NHCs. If you do go NHC, get the ionbond.
beschatten
06-09-13, 00:24
It's really up to what you want feature wise. I would love to have either if I could find one locally.
NH uses Trijicon/Heine sights where Wilson makes their own sights. Wilson likes the 30LPI cuts, NH seems use 25LPI and put all sorts of serrations (i.e. Falcon) on most models where as on a Wilson its an additional cost. Seems like NH is trying to increase market share by having slightly lower prices than Wilson.
Both have outstanding customer service and great talent in the shops.
It really is a matter of personal preference and at that price point - the function and reliability is all there - it's all a matter of personal preference on the aesthetics.
I own a Nighthawk T3. I bought it simply because it had all the features I wanted on it. The major difference, I'd say, is that at Nighthawk, the company recently switched to a one-gun-one-smith build philosophy. That's why recent production guns, like mine, have the smith's initials stamped onto the frame. At Wilson Combat, they use more of an assembly line process. The critical point here is that they have dedicated smiths who work only on the trigger; they have been trained by the best. So the question really is, do you want a gun that's been built by a single smith from start to finish like a true custom (although NHC guns are semi-custom, really), or a gun that's gone through an assembly line of specialists? Neither is better than the other, it's personal preference.
morpheus6d9
06-09-13, 01:12
I own a Nighthawk T3. I bought it simply because it had all the features I wanted on it. The major difference, I'd say, is that at Nighthawk, the company recently switched to a one-gun-one-smith build philosophy. That's why recent production guns, like mine, have the smith's initials stamped onto the frame. At Wilson Combat, they use more of an assembly line process. The critical point here is that they have dedicated smiths who work only on the trigger; they have been trained by the best. So the question really is, do you want a gun that's been built by a single smith from start to finish like a true custom (although NHC guns are semi-custom, really), or a gun that's gone through an assembly line of specialists? Neither is better than the other, it's personal preference.
Mind blown :eek:
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2
I'd like to see a thread started where 1911 owners put down what 1911's they've owned and how they've shaken out. The Kimber I had needed help twice from Kimber, and once from Nighhawk Custom. Nighthawk did a GREAT job on it. Wilson Combat did up a Colt 38 Super Government Model for me, and while I haven't wrung it out yet, the workmanship is VERY nice. The Stock Government Model I've been testing my reloads with has been 100 percent for the 500 rounds I've shot through it, and I might send it in one day to one of the two shops you're looking at.
I'd like to see a thread started where 1911 owners put down what 1911's they've owned and how they've shaken out.
This.
Also, I'm not really concerned about aesthetics on either gun brand. What I am concerned about is a) gun feeling REALLY good, & b) having the capability to shoot 1" groups at 25 yds, which is one of the specs on the sidebar of certain WC models.:cool:
Thanks for the info, guys!
Littlelebowski
06-10-13, 07:40
Which brand has guns available and which has a wait? Why?
beschatten
06-10-13, 07:48
This.
Also, I'm not really concerned about aesthetics on either gun brand. What I am concerned about is a) gun feeling REALLY good, & b) having the capability to shoot 1" groups at 25 yds, which is one of the specs on the sidebar of certain WC models.:cool:
Thanks for the info, guys!
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236
The Dan Wesson Valor can do that. Most 1911's do feel good with a little work to the front strap and a beavertail..
Are you looking for a Bulls Eye gun?
If you're gonna order either one, think about rollmarks.
Both of them like to emblazon the slide with goofy, juvenile, tacky, hideous roll marks.
Opt for a naked slide unless you like the elite, limited, special, super-duper, uber deadly tactical darkness edition.
Anyone who owns either brand want to chime in? I'd be pretty surprised to see someone duplicated that kind of accuracy with a handgun, but I bet someone here's done it before.
Ballistic Agency
06-10-13, 10:41
I own a Nighthawk T3. I bought it simply because it had all the features I wanted on it. The major difference, I'd say, is that at Nighthawk, the company recently switched to a one-gun-one-smith build philosophy. That's why recent production guns, like mine, have the smith's initials stamped onto the frame. At Wilson Combat, they use more of an assembly line process. The critical point here is that they have dedicated smiths who work only on the trigger; they have been trained by the best. So the question really is, do you want a gun that's been built by a single smith from start to finish like a true custom (although NHC guns are semi-custom, really), or a gun that's gone through an assembly line of specialists? Neither is better than the other, it's personal preference.
This.
I much prefer a group of specialists build my pistol rather than one person who is pretty good at everything.
Several other things pushed me to Wilson. Their test fire procedure is more extensive than any I've heard of. I've seen it in person when Larry filmed the Wilson episode of TAC-TV. I was blown away at the level of perfection required before the gun will go out the door.
The reliability of my Wilsons has been exemplary. My main carry gun is a Wilson and is closing in on 10,000 rounds through it with only one failure to feed. No other problems or malfunctions with it. The one FTF was from a mag full of uncrimped ammo that Rob Leatham gave me to burn. No fault of the gun. The FTF happened around the 7,500 round mark.
I don't have much experience with NH, but I know WC will build the gun any way you want as long as it doesn't sacrifice reliability. You can go full-on safe queen bling guns, down and dirty work gun, or competition gun. My go-to WC is a combination of the last two and has the scars to prove it.
I own a 2007 WC CQB, 2009 NH GRP, 2002 LB TRS and a 2002 Rock River Standard Match. All are great 1911 pistols.
I see little difference between the WC and NH. Considering alot of the people that built the NH used to work for WC, this should not surprise anyone.
I would consider any price difference the deal maker.
I own 3 WC Professionals, a WC CQB with rail, and a WC Tactical LE. All are accurate, reliable and well made. If you order from WC either directly or through a Dealer, you can pretty much get what you want and they will eliminate any markings you want removed, such as their logo. Customer service is excellent. If I need or should I say want another 1911, I'll go to WC.
Which brand has guns available and which has a wait? Why?
IIRC, both have waits with no guns available. The only way to get a gun from either company immediately is to find one on sites like Gunbroker, which is where I got mine.
I hear that George over at MIGunslingers is THE go-to man if you want a full custom or production model for ANY high-end 1911. There are many reports over at the 1911Forums of customers who have repeatedly found guns for cheaper with less wait time by ordering through George than directly through a business, even for full custom builds. He also has very flexible payment plans. I have yet to hear or read about a negative dealing with him.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236
The Dan Wesson Valor can do that. Most 1911's do feel good with a little work to the front strap and a beavertail..
Are you looking for a Bulls Eye gun?
Just because one example can do that doesn't mean they all can. :confused:
IZinterrogator
06-16-13, 02:12
I walked into a store today that had five Nighthawks in the display case. It took all my self control to not walk out with a GRP Recon for $2900.
OUCH!! I know it's a good gun, but I'd have trouble forking over that much cash. Then again, time is money, and not being on a wait list would be nice...
I hear that George over at MIGunslingers is THE go-to man if you want a full custom or production model for ANY high-end 1911. There are many reports over at the 1911Forums of customers who have repeatedly found guns for cheaper with less wait time by ordering through George than directly through a business, even for full custom builds. He also has very flexible payment plans. I have yet to hear or read about a negative dealing with him.[/QUOTE]
I have a NH Talon that I got from George several years ago. Great gun, never a problem in a few thousand rounds and fun to shoot. Their old Permakote finish was not very durable. Their CS was great when I sent them a Baer Custom Carry to replace the sights. George is great to work with and there is a ton of info. on 1911forum.com.
Several friends have WC, and you can't go wrong with WC or NH.
Eric
It's too hard to generalize opinions about the two. Bac1023 would be the best person I would say to critique the virtues of each but then it will all boil down to each different model. Entry level vs top shelf semicustomized/fully custom 1911s are different strengths among manufactures. All of which I personally do not have the credentials to pick through. Email bac1023 and see what he says. :)
Army Chief
06-16-13, 12:39
Which brand has guns available and which has a wait? Why?
Not to take a thing away from Nighthawk, but a look at resale values should also prove highly instructive.
AC
Magic_Salad0892
06-16-13, 14:41
The reliability of my Wilsons has been exemplary. My main carry gun is a Wilson and is closing in on 10,000 rounds through it with only one failure to feed. No other problems or malfunctions with it. The one FTF was from a mag full of uncrimped ammo that Rob Leatham gave me to burn. No fault of the gun. The FTF happened around the 7,500 round mark.
MRBS of 5,000 is great for any pistol. Especially a 1911.
Not to take a thing away from Nighthawk, but a look at resale values should also prove highly instructive.
I've pics of several dogs they put out over the years that made my wonder WTF were they thinking. Here is one from a few years ago that I just happen to have in my photobucket. Whoever let this one out the door should be pumping gas instead of building 1911s. :confused:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/IMG_2921.jpg
In semi custom 1911's there is Wilson Combat.. and then there is everyone else...
David Thomas
06-16-13, 15:59
It's too hard to generalize opinions about the two. Bac1023 would be the best person I would say to critique the virtues of each but then it will all boil down to each different model. Entry level vs top shelf semicustomized/fully custom 1911s are different strengths among manufactures. All of which I personally do not have the credentials to pick through. Email bac1023 and see what he says. :)
I disagree.
The biggest difference I can tell between the bottom level Wilson and the super grade is mainly whose name is on the build sheet and cosmetics.
My bottom grade Wilson Xtac is "better" than any semi custom 1911 I have seen or shot and "better" than many custom 1911s I have seen and shot. "Better" in this context meaning either more reliable, more accurate, or more attention to detail.
Same goes for other Wilsons I have owned/shot (with the new frame and slide.) Wilson quality is remarkably consistent.
David Thomas
06-16-13, 16:00
In semi custom 1911's there is Wilson Combat.. and then there is everyone else...
agreed
I had a WC CQB many years ago that I unfortunately had to sell about a year after I got out of the service.
It shot everything I put through it except for WinClean. I chalk the failures with that ammo to the ammo, as it had so much buffer in it. The white buffer garbage in the ammo was sticking to everything and gummed up the action.
I regret having to sell it. I carried the pistol daily, and it was not handled with kid gloves by any stretch of the imagination.
The only complaint I had was with the ArmorTuff finish. When it started to come off it came off in flakes.
Other than that, and the issue with WinClean (Which i have sworn off using under ANY circumstance) it was the perfect gun.
Μολὼν λαβέ
06-30-13, 19:34
Buy a couple of each, put them in safe storage, and sell them in five years for double what you paid for them.
I had a WC CQB many years ago that I unfortunately had to sell about a year after I got out of the service.
It shot everything I put through it except for WinClean. I chalk the failures with that ammo to the ammo, as it had so much buffer in it. The white buffer garbage in the ammo was sticking to everything and gummed up the action.
I regret having to sell it. I carried the pistol daily, and it was not handled with kid gloves by any stretch of the imagination.
The only complaint I had was with the ArmorTuff finish. When it started to come off it came off in flakes.
Other than that, and the issue with WinClean (Which i have sworn off using under ANY circumstance) it was the perfect gun.
Believe they have changed the formula. More resilient now.
Army Chief
07-01-13, 11:25
They have indeed. The old Armor-Tuff criticisms of the 90s were largely just a cosmetic concern, but one that obviously bothered folks shelling out big money for a top-tier pistol. Of course, even when the finish showed serious wear, the base metal was still well-protected, so even the earliest coatings did their jobs. As the old Virginia Slims ads used to say, however, "you've come a long way, baby." Today's formulation is a vastly different -- and more durable -- animal.
AC
Let me ask a question of the builders of the awesome 1911 platform. I have an issue if there is any space whatsoever in the frame to rail fit. I have several 1911's that is a perfect fit. Machined to perfection.
Here is what I have noticed, the bottom left groove and bottom right groove are always tight. But often the top left zig zag that looks like a chair, will have an imperfect fit. There will be space or air between the slide and frame. On this pictured piece of garbage (which I have a hard time believing its a Nighthawk- not my point though) there is space everywhere.
My question, how important is the frame to slide fit on the upper left portion of the fitting? I like it to be perfect. I always check this before I buy one, even though Ive suspected its not critical. ??????
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/IMG_2921.jpg[/QUOTE]
hopetonbrown
07-01-13, 15:08
I have a NHC Predator II and a Wilson Supergrade.
The WC Supergrade has been through classes with Bob Vogel, Louis Awerbuck, Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers.
The NHC had given me problems from the beginning. Finally got it back from NHC and it worked great through 1 day 400-500 round class. Took it home and ran it through the ultrasonic tank with a few other pistols that needed cleaning. D'oh! The new black nitride finish doesn't play well with ultrasonic tanks, so now my slide finish looks all funky. My fault for forgetting about this, as the gun came back with a tag on it saying not to. But habits are hard to break, and frankly, I don't know why people get so wound up about finishes, anyway. They get holster wear, so what?
I'd definitely buy another WC, and I would probably buy a NHC, but if there were two in the case at the same price with the same options I'd grab the WC in a heart beat.
Army Chief
07-01-13, 15:20
You aren't really talking about slide to frame fit in this instance; you are talking about the height at which the slide is riding over the ejector, and a certain amount of clearance is normal, as they are not contact surfaces, per se. A very detail-oriented smith may install and fit an oversized ejector to minimize this on a full-house gun (especially if the slide has been over-relieved in this area), but the working end of the ejector up front is really what counts, and the gap is of no consequence in functional terms.
AC
theJanitor
07-01-13, 17:08
My question, how important is the frame to slide fit on the upper left portion of the fitting? I like it to be perfect. I always check this before I buy one, even though Ive suspected its not critical. ??????
It can be critical. Ejector fitting is discussed in this 1911.pro thread:
http://www.1911proDOTcom/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=850&hilit=ejector
and Chuck threw in some wisdom on making it right
as for the WC vs. NH argument, I can't say, because I've never handled a NH. But I know a guy that can buy anything he wants, and he bought TWENTY Wilson 1911's. Draw your own conclusions from that info :blink:
Army Chief
07-01-13, 17:19
Just for the sake of perfect clarity, we are now talking about the importance of a properly-fitted ejector. This may or may not have anything to do with the slide "gap" itself for reasons already discussed; however, ejector length and height are definely critical to a properly-functioning 1911.
AC
You aren't really talking about slide to frame fit in this instance; you are talking about the height at which the slide is riding over the ejector, and a certain amount of clearance is normal, as they are not contact surfaces, per se. A very detail-oriented smith may install and fit an oversized ejector to minimize this on a full-house gun (especially if the slide has been over-relieved in this area), but the working end of the ejector up front is really what counts, and the gap is of no consequence in functional terms.
AC
This was exactly the answer I wanted clarification on. Thank you AC.
theJanitor
07-01-13, 17:35
Spot on, as always, AC.
Just checked 3 WC Professionals, a WC Tactical LE and a WC CQB and none have the gaps as depicted.
themissinglink
07-01-13, 18:01
I have a early 2012 production Nighthawk T3T, Black Nitride, SS Barrel, Heine Night Sights. I waited approximately 3 days for the gun to arrive, as my then dealer had some sort of get it now resources for anything that usually had a wait list.
At approximately 314 rounds, the rear sight shifted to the right by approximately .060". Sent back to NH and the sight was pushed back into place by them. I'm sure I could have had a local smith do the task, but it only had the gun for a few days.
The next range trip I had put 100 rounds through it and the sight shifted .125" right. I cleaned the slide with clp power blast or such, and ruined the finish. Sent it back again, they probably replaced the slide or the sight itself, a month later it returned, refinished. Only after I called and spoke with 1 of the owners. They "threw in" 4 mags for my trouble.
Have shot approximately 150 rounds since then and no problems have arisen.
Would I buy another? Yep!
Its a hand built gun, it shoots amazing, and I think that the initial bugs are out of it.
Army Chief
07-01-13, 18:11
Just checked 3 WC Professionals, a WC Tactical LE and a WC CQB and none have the gaps as depicted.
Nor would I expect them to, given that Wilson's has complete control over component production (so they can precisely control the slide relief dimensions and ejector heights) and the amount of time they devote to fitting. My experience with Wilson guns -- even the older ones -- has been largely the same.
AC
I have no dog (or gun) in this fight as I do not own a 1911. What I can tell you is that a good friend of mine and I had this exact conversation just two days ago. This good friend may just have EXTENSIVE knowledge in the firearms industry.
From the conversation I got this:
The Wilson guys that moved to Nighthawk are no longer there.
Wilson now sponsers Mr. Vickers and TAC TV.
Wilson has a 3 year wait.
Don't buy an Ed Brown.
High Tower
07-01-13, 19:57
The Wilson guys that moved to Nighthawk are no longer there.
Wilson now sponsers Mr. Vickers and TAC TV.
Wilson has a 3 year wait.
Don't buy an Ed Brown.
Interesting about the Nighthawk guys. Can you elaborate on Ed Brown? I've always heard they are right up there with the others as far as quality goes.
Littlelebowski
07-01-13, 20:07
Interesting about the Nighthawk guys. Can you elaborate on Ed Brown? I've always heard they are right up there with the others as far as quality goes.
I have a good friend who can shoot that was recently treated very poorly by Ed Brown.
Interesting about the Nighthawk guys. Can you elaborate on Ed Brown? I've always heard they are right up there with the others as far as quality goes.
I'm sorry, I can not. I have heard the same as you have also. It was just a comment that was made toward the end. Unfortunately, I have no intrest in EB so I did not have him elaborate. I have been told long ago that it is hit or miss when you buy a Nighthawk depending on who builds it in the shop. I would only guess that they were talking about weather you had one of the builders that were formerly from Wilson.
ETA: During our conversation, he was wearing a full size STI 1911 in 9MM.
theJanitor
07-01-13, 20:13
I have a good friend who can shoot that was recently treated very poorly by Ed Brown.
I can echo this statement
themissinglink
07-01-13, 20:18
Have heard of that with people buying parts from EB!
I have a good friend who can shoot that was recently treated very poorly by Ed Brown.
Littlelebowski
07-01-13, 20:22
Have heard of that with people buying parts from EB!
This was a complete gun, bought new from EB shooting over 3" low at 25 yards.
themissinglink
07-01-13, 20:33
Ouch! Thats just downright nonsense.
This was a complete gun, bought new from EB shooting over 3" low at 25 yards.
hopetonbrown
07-01-13, 23:12
I know a guy that can buy anything he wants, and he bought TWENTY Wilson 1911's. Draw your own conclusions from that info :blink:
The guy has a lot of money, doesn't make him the 1911 SME.
It'd say more that he ran 1 Wilson through 20 classes and recommends them, then blanketing the inside his safe with Wilsons.
theJanitor
07-02-13, 01:26
hey, like I said, draw your own conclusions
I own ONE semi custom, half of a consecutive numbered set of LB's, and my brother has the other. other than that, I only own full customs.
hopetonbrown
07-02-13, 02:40
Do you shoot any of them?
theJanitor
07-02-13, 02:51
I shoot as much as I can. and admittedly not so much the past few years. There were a few years where I could get through 20k of 45acp a year. I think I bought one case in 2012. :(
hopetonbrown
07-02-13, 02:53
Cool, what was the last class you took, which 1911 did you take through it, and how did it run for you?
theJanitor
07-02-13, 03:03
Pmd you, as to keep this on topic
They have indeed. The old Armor-Tuff criticisms of the 90s were largely just a cosmetic concern, but one that obviously bothered folks shelling out big money for a top-tier pistol. Of course, even when the finish showed serious wear, the base metal was still well-protected, so even the earliest coatings did their jobs. As the old Virginia Slims ads used to say, however, "you've come a long way, baby." Today's formulation is a vastly different -- and more durable -- animal.
AC
Yes, my qualms with the Armor-Tuff were was about the cosmetic aspect. The finish on the trigger started coming off within the first 50 rounds (and i never did quite understand putting AT on the trigger)The rest of it happened through long range sessions, and then from being carried in my post service days.
I was quite aware that the underlying metal was still protected, and treated the gun kinda like a read headed step child when I started to carry it.
As I said it was only one of 2 minor complaints, and it was just minor, but I put it out there because it was an issue.
But it didn't affect function.
Wish I still had that damn gun..
High Tower
07-02-13, 22:10
I'm sorry, I can not. I have heard the same as you have also. It was just a comment that was made toward the end. Unfortunately, I have no intrest in EB so I did not have him elaborate. I have been told long ago that it is hit or miss when you buy a Nighthawk depending on who builds it in the shop. I would only guess that they were talking about weather you had one of the builders that were formerly from Wilson.
ETA: During our conversation, he was wearing a full size STI 1911 in 9MM.
OK Rog. I dealt with EB a little bit in my last job and never had any customer service issues with them. We did have to send a couple back to tweak though. Interesting he had an STI 9mm on. I think it would be fun but it seems so few companies get them to run 100%.
I've had 2 Nighthawks that ran great. The last one I bought in 2008. I wonder if they've had some changes since then?
I have owned two Ed Browns. Still have one. They are by far the worst when it comes to CS. Let me start and finish by saying, if you have a problem with your $2,700 gun, you pay to ship it back.
themissinglink
07-03-13, 09:40
Nighthawk was no different.
I have owned two Ed Browns. Still have one. They are by far the worst when it comes to CS. Let me start and finish by saying, if you have a problem with your $2,700 gun, you pay to ship it back.
Army Chief
07-03-13, 09:44
Ed can be a bit prickly, but he builds a beautiful gun. Business is strong enough that the man simply doesn't have to pretend to be someone that he's not.
The guys at Nighthawk may or may not be who you think they are, as some key players have moved on; either way, their guns don't fare as well on the secondary market. (That bodes well for everyone but the initial purchaser.) Not saying they aren't a quality product; merely that the demand for their guns is strongest at the time that the initial order is made. If you decide that you really wanted something else thereafter, you might end up wishing that you had gone in another direction, depending upon the strength of the resale market at the time.
Wilson's has put so much emphasis upon ne plus ultra guns and customization in recent years, that some might argue they are wandering away from their core competencies. The fact remains that they continue to build a benchmark gun, and they do a better job than anyone of standing behind it. Stay away from the BBQ "every available option" collector silliness, and a Wilson still represents the definitive shooter's 1911 for most.
AC
Ed can be a bit prickly, but he builds a beautiful gun. Business is strong enough that the man simply doesn't have to pretend to be someone that he's not.
The guys at Nighthawk may or may not be who you think they are, as some key players have moved on; either way, their guns don't fare as well on the secondary market. (That bodes well for everyone but the initial purchaser.) Not saying they aren't a quality product; merely that the demand for their guns is strongest at the time that the initial order is made. If you decide that you really wanted something else thereafter, you might end up wishing that you had gone in another direction, depending upon the strength of the resale market at the time.
Wilson's has put so much emphasis upon ne plus ultra guns and customization in recent years, that some might argue they are wandering away from their core competencies. The fact remains that they continue to build a benchmark gun, and they do a better job than anyone of standing behind it. Stay away from the BBQ "every available option" collector silliness, and a Wilson still represents the definitive shooter's 1911 for most.
AC
So much true here IMHO. I've often felt it is an important who built the 1911 as which company built it. I have one ED that is a work of art. I bought my Nighthawk Talon when NHC was first making their name. It has been amazing. I've only had one 1911 that didnt fair well. it was a EB Bobtail. Got rid of it.
Back to AC's last point. I have always felt when you get past the NHC TALON / GRP or basic EB Special Forces or SA Pro, Wilson CQB you are paying for pretty BS that doesn't translate to function or value. These $3k plus guns get to the point of diminishing returns for your dollar.
Not that I wouldn't love a Tactical Supergrade, but my first Wilson would have to be a CQB or such.
I bought a TRP many years ago and I have to believe they pulled a guy off the PRO Build line and said, go do the TRP's, because it is fitted to perfection and has over 5,000 rounds with zero issues of any kind anytime. Back to who built that bad boy! Which has caused me to drink SA 1911 Koolaid.
IZinterrogator
07-06-13, 06:10
Nighthawk was no different.
I had an issue with the Diamond Black finish not bonding with the steel on one of my Nighthawks and they paid shipping both ways.
MadAngler1
07-13-13, 22:16
I own both a Nighthawk Talon II bobtail (4.25" commander) and a Wilson X-tac 5". Both have had their ups and downs.
I purchased my Nighthawk Talon II in August 2010, and I've put more than 3500 rounds through the gun since then. It has served me well through Gunsite 250 and a Larry Vickers class, with only a few hiccups that were due to magazine/ammo issues. The trigger is set to 4.5 lbs, with a tritium front and plain black rear (novak style). I have VZ grips on the gun, and it draws very nicely out of its Milt Sparks VM-2 holster. This is my favorite 1911 by far, but more due to the design of a commander as opposed to the 5" model. I don't feel I lose much accuracy by chopping off 3/4" barrel length. The speed advantage is immense, and the accuracy is every bit as good given Nighthawk's excellent stainless steel barrel.
NH Problems:
1. The rear sight came loose the very first range outing, as it was never appropriately set in place. Nighthawk paid for the shipping though.
2. I have broken two ejectors on the gun thus far, and my current one is already chipped on the edge. I linked the problem to the magazines I was using originally, which were a combination of Wilson ETMs and Tripp Cobramags. The Cobramags were the primary offenders during mag changes, as they sit very high in the receiver. I figured out that the feed lips of the Cobramags were striking the extended ejector on my Nighthawk, resulting in breakage. Since then, I've been using Nighthawk's magazines (which are either Italian ACTs or some version of a Wilson 47D from what I figure). The ETMs have the same problem, so I've avoided those as well. Bottomline is their ejectors are probably slight to long and sit to low on their commander length guns. I guess this is why they state you should only use Nighthawk's magazines. This sort of sucks when one owns a variety of 1911s. So now, I have to buy two different types of mags :sad:
3. The cerakote finish stunk. One cold winter ago, I sent it back to have the gun Diamond black after the ejector broke for the 2nd time. The diamond black is OK, but not as dark as I would have liked.
4. Slide lever: It wore out after 3000 rounds and would no longer lock back the slide. Hence, it would not engage the magazine follower. I think the Tripp magazines I was using may have had something to do with this. I have since replaced it with a black oxide 10-8 performance slide release lever, and it runs like a champ again.
The Wilson X-tac was purchased ultimately because I wanted an all carbon steel 5" fighting gun. I chose the X-tac over a CQB because I do not like 30 lpi checkering, and I prefer 20-25 lpi. I didn't want to wait 12 years for a custom order, so I picked up a X-tac at my dealer and had Wilson do some custom work on it. It now has night sights and a speed chute, 4.5 lb trigger, carry cuts and an all matte black Armor-Tuff finish. I ditched the fiber optic front sight for a tritium one from the get go. The front dot is so small though, I may switch back to three dot sights. I wish Wilson had their own version of Trijicon HDs though.
Wilson Problems:
1. Several FTFs using Wilson's own ETM magazines during the first 500 rounds. I guess it was all about break in, as the barrel lug to slide fit was very very tight. I would have to add excessive amounts of lube during shooting sessions at times and then the problem would resolve. After 1000 rounds, I don't have any FTFs any more.
2. Just like on my nighthawk, Wilson's rear battesight flew off the slide, less than 50 rounds into its first shooting session. Considering I spent $3k on the damn thing, I was not pleased. Despite this, they made it right and paid for the shipping. I got it back in less than 2 weeks. I also noted problem #1 above to them, as I contiuned to shoot the gun to test it out. They could not replicate the problem with the Wilson ETM magazines I was using.
Fit, feature and finish differences:
1. Barrel-bushing fit: The nighthawk's was ridiculously tight the first 1000 rounds, especially between the barrel and bushing. I had to lube the hell out of the gun to disassemble it. My Wilson was not like this, but the accuracy is every bit as damn good.
2. Slide to frame fit: NH's was tighter. Wilson's is by no means loose but much smoother out of the box. Now with > 1000 rounds through both, I can't tell a difference.
3. Barrel lug to slide recess fit: Wilson's was incredibly tight out of the box, to the point where it caused FTFs during the first 500 round break in. Now, it's very smooth and I can't get the gun to jam if I tried. Nighthawk's barrel lug fit was not as tight.
4. Cosmetics: both were flawless out of the box. No complaints, as my guns are fighting/IDPA guns, not beauty queens.
5. Grip style: Has anyone noticed that you can get your right middle finger just a smudge higher up under the trigger guard on a Wilson? Likewise, the beavertail grip safeties on the Nighthawk and Wilson are contoured different. I like my Nighthawk's curvatures better the more I shoot both, but this is solely a matter of personal preference and does not affect function at all.
6. Thumb safety: Both "tactical" models are different. Nighthawk's is fatter, whereas the Wilson's is fairly slim. I like the Nighthawk's better because it is more comfortable to the thumb when shooting 200-300 round sessions. I may buy a larger lever for my Wilson for comfort issues.
7. Slide release lever: Wilson's is more of a traditional GI style lever, whereas Nighthawk's is a "tactical" extended release lever. I find no functional difference when I change magazines and release the slide with my support hand's thumb, as the LAV teaches.
8. Grip screws: Wilson uses slotted, NH uses hex head. More important, I must add that neither brand's grip bushings have come loose, which is all I friggin care about.
Both guns have now had their old fashion coil style recoil springs ditched for Wilson's flat wire recoil spring system. For the commander length Nighthawk, you have to use Wilson's 4", 22 lb recoil spring kit, but with a reverse plug they sell (I don't have the specs off hand). Both guns run great now, and I have not had any hiccups during the last 300-500 rounds of shooting out of both guns. I just wish I had more time to shoot both, but working 70-90 hrs a week does not help my cause.
I hope these observations help. I would buy either brand as it stands now, if you know what you're getting into when you buy a 1911. You have to know what makes these guns click and how to service them when they go down. It's that simple. Don't buy a $3k 1911 if you want a Glock.
beschatten
07-14-13, 01:40
I had the pleasure to test a WC CQB and a NH Predator today. Note, I don't own either.
The trigger *felt* a lot lighter on the WC than the NH. The NH's trigger is sweet, but something about Wilson's... just felt right. It had zero play and broke like glass. Unbelievable. The NH had just a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of travel before breaking.
I didn't have time to look at the machining and what not. They both felt very comfortable. The high cut on the front strap felt really good on the Wilson but the 30LPI was hardly noticeable for myself. It worked though, and I guess that's the magic behind a Wilson. The 25LPI on the NH felt a bit more grippy as I could actually identify the texture.
Surprisingly, I was also very happy with the green FO front and the rear combat sights on the WC. The NH had a tritium front and a U notch rear - Novak style. I enjoyed both.
Something about the Wilson felt a tad bit better though, can't really pinpoint it. I was surprised at how subtle the logo was on the slide too. Aesthetically, the NH takes it for me though, but for a fighting gun I could care less. The Wilson was also VERY tight. I believe it was near new.
I understand why they have those pricetags, and I definitely don't mind spending that kind of money for guns of this quality. My preference is slightly towards Wilson at the moment, but I sure as hell wouldn't mind a NH either. Both are leagues above my 1911's.
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