View Full Version : WWII & Vintage aircraft thread
Grand58742
06-10-13, 18:22
Formerly the "Dornier Bomber raised from English Channel" thread.
I'm an airplane buff, especially the aircraft of WWII. Thought this was a pretty cool piece of history preserved
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/06/10/nazi-bomber-lift-at-midnight/
What I found pretty cool about the article though was this:
“We’ve got a Spitfire and a Hurricane and a German Messerschmidt,” Peter Dye, director general RAF Museum, told FoxNews.com last month. “All the other aircraft were sent to smelters and recycled, ironically enough into our aircraft.”
“You might say it’s environmentally sound,” he added wryly.
And that's turning a frown upside down. Using their own materials against them.
Some writer believes they are terribly clever...
"The Royal Air Force Museum scrambled Monday to finally recover the plane..."
:lol:
I am a WWII aircraft junkie. And with the exception of the F4U Corsair anything related to the Battle of Britain and the European air war are the most interesting of all the aircraft.
The 'flying pencil'! Great to see one saved from the grave. Always loved the lines of the DO-17.
Many times when I see one of these or a Junkers 88 it makes me happy Hitler never really pushed for a four engine bomber......and that Adolf Galland didn't run the Luftwaffe.
This is great to see. I LOVE WW2 aviation.
-Jax
......and that Adolf Galland didn't run the Luftwaffe.
This is great to see. I LOVE WW2 aviation.
-Jax
Amen to that. The Fat Bastard Herman Goering along with Hitler did not know how to think strategically ie four enginged bombers.
Dan
D. Christopher
06-10-13, 21:52
This aircraft is Dornier 17 Z-2, werk number 1160, of number 7 squadron, 3 Group, 3rd Bomber Wing, shot down on August 26, 1940 with the loss of 2 of her 4 man crew. Here are a couple of the scans from 2011 showing it resting in the Goodwin Sands. Truly a rare type, and even though the Finnish Air Force flew the Do 17 until the 1950's none of them survived.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16983&stc=1&d=1370918847
Here are the details of this aircraft from the RAF Museum in 2010:
DORNIER Do 17Z Werke nr. 1160
Built as a Do 17Z-2, with two supercharged Bramo ‘Fafnir’ 323P-1 nine-cylinder radial engines; the ultimate, and most numerous, model of the Do 17 produced.
Allotted to 7/KG3 (7 Staffel (Squadron), III Gruppe of KG.3 with fuselage codes 5K+AR. Based at St Trond in Belgium.
Mon. 26 August 40
Part of a combined formation of Dorniers from KG2/3 despatched to bomb Debden and Hornchurch airfields. Seven aircraft of the 7 Staffel started to bomb an aerodrome, probably Debden, causing some damage. Accounts of its loss vary from source to source; The original PoW Interrogation Report states that before reaching the target, when flying above clouds this aircraft seemingly became separated from the rest of the formation and lost its bearings. It was attacked by fighters, probably one of the recently-arrived RAF Hornchurch, Essex- based Boulton Paul Defiants of No.264 Squadron RAF led by Flt Lt Banham (with their forward base at RAF Manston, Kent) which hit both engines and the cockpit as one of at least one – or up to six, as again published accounts vary - Dorniers brought down by the Defiants, who lost three of their number to defending Bf109s. At around 13.40 hours the aircraft force- landed on Goodwin Sands off the eastern Kentish coast at low tide. Of the four crew, two (Wounded Pilot Feldwebel Willi Effmert, and Bomb Aimer Uffz Hermann Ritzel) became Prisoners-of-War in Canada and two (27-year old Wireless Operator Unteroffizier Helmut Reinhardt and 21-year old Bomb aimer Gefreiter Heinz Huhn) were killed, their bodies being recovered later and buried in Holland and the UK (Cannock Chase German cemetery) respectively.
Sep 2008
Following probable recent exposure by shifting sands, wreck located at a depth of some 16m/50 feet and a high – resolution side-scan sonar and magnetometer survey was made (following original discovery by a recreational diver who reported the find) by Wessex Archaeology on behalf of English Heritage. The aircraft is lying inverted and largely complete on a bed of chalk on Goodwin Sands, with a small debris field around it. The diver indicated the wreck was first reported to him c. 2004 by a fisherman who had apparently snagged his nets on it c.2000/2001.
Starboard tailplane, port rudder, tail fairing cone and tailwheel assembly, flap assemblies, engine cowlings, forward nose glazing and bomb bay and undercarriage doors missing, though both the main undercarriage units remain retracted and in place.
Other items including at least two of the original six 7.92mm MG 15 machine guns removed during unauthorised dives by ‘sport’ divers.
20 May 2009
Further Sidescan geophysical sonar survey of area including the Do 17 wreck by Wessex Archaeology on behalf of English Heritage, confirming the continued presence and good condition of the aircraft.
2/3 Jun 2010
Diving Survey (two dives on consecutive days) of aircraft undertaken in conjunction with Wessex Archaeology Ltd.
This is the only known substantially intact Dornier Do-17. A few components from other machines survive, including the rudder, spinner and propeller blade displayed in the Battle of Britain Hall at Hendon.
I dig stories like this. I've always found it fascinating.
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D. Christopher
06-10-13, 23:00
Another rare German WWII aircraft that was brought up in June of 2012 is the Heinkel 115 werk number 2398 now at the Sola Aircraft Museum. It was a floatplane that crashed and flipped and eventually sank in December 1942 in Norway. The crew survived and the floats and the starboard engine were salvaged before it went under. There are many great pictures and high quality video of the recovery and it is amazing to see them lift the nearly intact aircraft out of the water. Much of the equipment is still in place and the squadron markings and paint are in excellent shape. You can see a machine gun with its ammo belt dangling out of the top of the aircraft (it's inverted) during the lift. They gently placed it onshore and then disassembled it for transport to a large freshwater tank at the museum for stabilization and preservation. A very impressive recovery of a rare type.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16984&stc=1&d=1370922874
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16985&stc=1&d=1370922939
Check out the cat they painted on their aircraft. :lol:
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16986&stc=1&d=1370922951
Ned Christiansen
06-11-13, 00:14
Fascinating stuff!
Did someone say "Corsair"?
15 -20 years ago it was a Corsair that woke me Saturday mornings. He was up there doing all kinds of stuff-- loud stuff-- and I'd get up and watch him do it. Apparently I lived under some kind of free-to-romp zone. It was so cool-- those things are all muscle.
Fascinating stuff!
Did someone say "Corsair"?
15 -20 years ago it was a Corsair that woke me Saturday mornings. He was up there doing all kinds of stuff-- loud stuff-- and I'd get up and watch him do it. Apparently I lived under some kind of free-to-romp zone. It was so cool-- those things are all muscle.
IMO you didn't really have a childhood if you didn't grow up watching Black Sheep Squadron. We loved that show so much we didn't even realize 1/3 of each episode was the same "squadron formation" and stock "gun camera" footage used over and over.
:D
ShortytheFirefighter
06-11-13, 10:50
Steyr, if you're ever in Seattle you need to check out the Museum of Flight, they've got a Super Corsair as well as an F4U-1D that was salvaged off the bottom of Lake Washington after a collision and restored.
Beautiful aircraft indeed. I even have an autographed photo from one of the original Black Sheep at home, but for the life of me I can't think of who it is. It's right next to my autographed picture from Richard Cole of the Doolittle Raid.
We should start a WW2 aviation thread. I could talk about this stuff all day long. Especially the rare German aircraft such as the TA-152 and others.
My grandfather actually witnessed an ME-163 in flight from the ball turret of a B-24.
-Jax
Y'all need to check out the EAA fly-in in Oshkosh WI. Lotsa cool stuff there.
http://www.airventure.org/
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IMO you didn't really have a childhood if you didn't grow up watching Black Sheep Squadron. We loved that show so much we didn't even realize 1/3 of each episode was the same "squadron formation" and stock "gun camera" footage used over and over.
:D
HA! This brought back some childhood memories of Saturday mornings. I watched all the re-runs though as I'm a bit younger than you. It's amazing to me though that people my age have no clue what "Black Sheep Squadron" is.
We should start a WW2 aviation thread. I could talk about this stuff all day long. Especially the rare German aircraft such as the TA-152 and others.
My grandfather actually witnessed an ME-163 in flight from the ball turret of a B-24.
-Jax
My Grandfather was top turret on a B-24 15th AAF and took a shot at a Me262. Tail gunner warned everyone that they had something "coming in fast", my Grandfather looked at it and concluded "it ain't ours" and opened up on it.
The entire plane then screamed at him to "stop shooting" out of fear he'd make it come back around.
He is also purportedly responsibly for being one of the guys who knocked Adolf Galland out if the sky. I think it was during the Schweinfurt raid.
Amen to that. The Fat Bastard Herman Goering along with Hitler did not know how to think strategically ie four enginged bombers.
Dan
Yeah and when Hitler was first presented the ME-262 Schwalbe he basically declared, "Vunderbar! Ve shall make zis ze Blitzbomba!" Turning the biggest threat to British and American strategic bombing into a high speed/low payload bomber......Idiot.
By the time he 'came around' there wasn't enough pilots, manufacturing capabilities, or spare parts to impart any influence on the war.
But thank goodness he didn't see the potential at first.
-Jax
brickboy240
06-11-13, 11:21
I got to sit in a Corsair that was in the warehouse of the WWII Museum in New Orleans, last spring. One that was restored just like the Black Sheep Squadron USMC ones. So cool!
...and yes...I too grew up watching that show and of all the things in that warehouse (including an ME-109) I went over to the Corsair first and hopped in!
The WWII Museum in New Orleans is a must visit if you are a WWII buff.
I was down there to meet with the curator and turn over some B-24 photos that my Great Uncle took as the squadron photographer during WWII in Italy 1943.
-brickboy240
My Grandfather was top turret on a B-24 15th AAF and took a shot at a Me262. Tail gunner warned everyone that they had something "coming in fast", my Grandfather looked at it and concluded "it ain't ours" and opened up on it.
The entire plane then screamed at him to "stop shooting" out of fear he'd make it come back around.
He is also purportedly responsibly for being one of the guys who knocked Adolf Galland out if the sky. I think it was during the Schweinfurt raid.
Very interesting story! My grandfather was in the 8th.
Pic of him in 1944:
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/95facebook95-129030653995.jpg
I've read some books on Galland. He is one of the German commanders I truly respected. Much like Rommel.
I don't recall but what was he flying when he was shot down. Was it a 262, 109, or 190? I want to say Fokke-Wolf but may be wrong.
-Jax
Very interesting story! My grandfather was in the 8th.
I've read some books on Galland. He is one of the German commanders I truly respected. Much like Rommel.
I don't recall but what was he flying when he was shot down. Was it a 262, 109, or 190? I want to say Fokke-Wolf but may be wrong.
-Jax
Probably has been shot down in every single one of them. He's been splashed a few times.
My favorite Galland story was him flying to Paris in a 109 wearing a tux with a box full of iced lobsters in the cockpit and for "sport" decided to cross the channel dumped a Spitfire and then went to the party.
There is a reason he played golf with the RAF senior staff after the war.
Copy that. I was referring to his last flight that ended his flying career. I was wrong. He was in a 262. Did some looking and was shot down a total of 4 times.
"Galland’s Me 262 was struck by return fire. Disengaging from the bombers, he* was bounced by a P-47 flown by 1st Lt James J Finnegan of the 50th Fighter Group, USAAF. Galland was wounded in the right knee and his aircraft received further damage. He was able to bring his crippled jet back to München-Reim and successfully land, albeit with a flat nose wheel tyre. He was forced to leap from his aircraft and take shelter because the airfield was under attack by American fighters. The wound suffered in this encounter were serious enough to end his combat flying."
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gallanda.html
-Jax
ShortytheFirefighter
06-11-13, 14:46
My Uncle Ervin was a Marauder pilot who flew missions on June 6th, 1944 in support of Overlord. He has told me a few stories of experiences he had. Absolutely amazing man, and he's one of the most humble people I've ever met. I managed to find a Franklin Mint 1/48th model of a Marauder named "Big Hairy Bird" that was in his Squadron/Bomb Group and he spend a half hour telling me stories about the crew members and some of the missions.
gunrunner505
06-11-13, 14:51
My grandfather and his brother were both bombardiers on B17s.
The stories they had....
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My grandfather and his brother were both bombardiers on B17s.
The stories they had....
Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2
My grandfather and your grandfather I guarantee you would've argued until hell sprouted icicles. He HATED the B-17.
His B-24 had a bigger payload, longer range, and was produced in larger numbers than the 17. Yet the Flying Fortress got all the glory. I never told him my deep dark secret that if I would've had the choice to fly in a 24 or 17 it would've been the 17. ;) It seemed to be more resilient under fire.
One thing on his side and one of the main reasons he loved the B-24 is directly related to his occupation of ball turret gunner. The Liberator's ball turret could be retracted into the fuselage and the Flying Fortress's could not. Kinda handy if you're returning to base after a run into Fortress Europe and have problems with the landing gear and couldn't get out of the turret for some reason. :)
-Jax
ShortytheFirefighter
06-11-13, 16:33
I think you'd see that sort of argument between any crew/pilot of one type vs another. Bob Stevens was the USAF cartoonist and used to draw some great ones of the rivalries dating back from WWII up through the modern era. I had two favorites, one was a Mustang and a Thunderbolt pilot arguing who had the better aircraft:
Mustang Pilot: "My plane is more manuverable."
Thunderbolt Pilot: "Yeah, but I can out fall you!"
The other good one was comparing the F-15 to the F-16 pilot rivalry. The F-16 pilots showed the Eagle pilots playing tennis on the back of an Eagle due to the size, the F-15 pilots showed an Eagle with 4 Falcons hanging off the pylons. I'll have to see if I can dig up the actual cartoons and scan them.
If you love aviation humor, try to find his complete collection called "There I Was...25 years". It's rare, but you can still find it every so often on Ebay.
Here is one that might be pertinent to the B-24 post...
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/BlackfeetVI/salute1_zps7e8cc57b.gif
Awesome Shorty. Thanks for sharing that. The Eagle vs. Falcon cartoon sounds hysterical!
-Jax
Ned Christiansen
06-11-13, 23:49
In a few days I will have the huge honor of visiting a recently-made friend who was a navigator and bombardier on a B-25 in the Burma-China-India theater. When I first met him last year I asked him about the eight hard-mounted .50's sticking out of the nose, could you selectively fire only 2, 4, 5 of them? What was it like when they went off? The answer was, "It was all eight or nothing. What was it like? Well, it was...... real loud."
I read up on the Burma Bridge Busters. On one mission, two B-25's went out and dropped their load on the day's target and strafed targets of opportunity on the way back. Mind you, depending on the model, these beauties had up to 18 .50's on board. These two on this mission fired 32,000 rounds of .50 BMG between them on the way back to base!
Grand58742
06-12-13, 04:35
In a few days I will have the huge honor of visiting a recently-made friend who was a navigator and bombardier on a B-25 in the Burma-China-India theater. When I first met him last year I asked him about the eight hard-mounted .50's sticking out of the nose, could you selectively fire only 2, 4, 5 of them? What was it like when they went off? The answer was, "It was all eight or nothing. What was it like? Well, it was...... real loud."
I read up on the Burma Bridge Busters. On one mission, two B-25's went out and dropped their load on the day's target and strafed targets of opportunity on the way back. Mind you, depending on the model, these beauties had up to 18 .50's on board. These two on this mission fired 32,000 rounds of .50 BMG between them on the way back to base!
I've always been fond of the B-25. More or less the predecessor of the modern gunship especially with the 75mm cannon on the later models. Provided it wasn't generally worth a darn, it certainly proved the concept of a heavy weapon on an attack aircraft was viable although it took several years and further iterations to come to finally come to fruition.
And the fact it was the aircraft that helped show the US the Japanese could be hit right at home like we were and provided a much needed morale boost at a critical point in the war.
Just an all around awesome airplane.
7.62WildBill
06-12-13, 05:52
A friend of mine's dad flew in a B-29 crew in the Pacific and participated in fire bombing Japan. He said that at 10,000 feet, the heat coming up from the burning city of Tokyo was nearly unbearable.
We have a restored B-17G flying around my town this week giving tours and rides. I sat on my patio last night and watched it fly over my house several times at low altitude.
The low drone of that beautiful bird is music to my ears. I could watch for hours. :)
I'm an aviation buff from way, way back. My family have a history of serving with the Air Force. Two of my uncles were pilots, one flying B-17's in the Pacific Theater in WWII. The other one flying P-51's post war.
There is an online contest at aviaquiz.com if anyone is interested. It covers private, commercial and military aircraft. You get a picture or partial picture from which you figure out what aircraft it is. Some times is pretty easy, but most times it's tough.
I remember seeing some footage on the history channel once I thought was incredible.. This footage showed a take off from the cockpit of a Russian bomber (don't know which one) was supposedly about the size of a B25, it was a tail dragger, and was flown by three women.. pilot, navigator, tailgunner.. The girls probably went about 98lbs soaking wet. The footage starts with the pilot making the usual checks, She then flips a few switches and gets this thing running, (camera is vibrating)Watching her feet on the rudder pedals she's apparently taxiing to the end of the runway, She locks the brakes, set the flaps, reaches over and throws both throttles forward, and kicks the brakes off, and starts down the runway...A few seconds into the rollout, the pilot says something to the navigator, (they are seated in a tandem arrangement) The navigator unbuckles her seat belt, spins around in her seat, reaches over the pilots shoulders, puts her hands on the yoke, and on the count of "three" both pull back on it for all their worth... This is how they got this thing into the air... Seeing this, I was shocked.. What the hell did they do if they got a 109 on their ass? I have to give'em credit, they had a lot of guts..
gunrunner505
06-12-13, 09:07
My grandfather and your grandfather I guarantee you would've argued until hell sprouted icicles. He HATED the B-17.
His B-24 had a bigger payload, longer range, and was produced in larger numbers than the 17. Yet the Flying Fortress got all the glory. I never told him my deep dark secret that if I would've had the choice to fly in a 24 or 17 it would've been the 17. ;) It seemed to be more resilient under fire.
One thing on his side and one of the main reasons he loved the B-24 is directly related to his occupation of ball turret gunner. The Liberator's ball turret could be retracted into the fuselage and the Flying Fortress's could not. Kinda handy if you're returning to base after a run into Fortress Europe and have problems with the landing gear and couldn't get out of the turret for some reason. :)
-Jax
I guarantee you they would have argued. If nothing else the GIs all believed their X was better than the others guys Y and they were passionate about it. That and my grandfather was not one to let a good argument go by. I swear, that man would argue with a possum sometimes....
They were and still are a fantastic group of men.
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gunrunner505
06-12-13, 09:10
We have a restored B-17G flying around my town this week giving tours and rides. I sat on my patio last night and watched it fly over my house several times at low altitude.
The low drone of that beautiful bird is music to my ears. I could watch for hours. :)
A radial engine is sweet music, no question. The best sound ever.
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ShortytheFirefighter
06-12-13, 09:23
I was able to find a few more Bob Stevens cartoons online, I have not been able to get the others scanned yet.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/BlackfeetVI/salute3_zpscf6a6851.gif
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/BlackfeetVI/redline1_zps10ab2d89.gif
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/BlackfeetVI/standard_zps97e9c8e4.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/BlackfeetVI/B17-Drawing_zps4f0099ad.jpg
For those of you who are interested in his book:
http://www.amazon.com/There-Was-25-Years/dp/0830638318
For my wedding reception we actually held it at the local Commemorative Air Force hangar and had them hosting it. It was a fundraiser for them and we had the opportunity to have our reception surrounded by classic aircraft. The only downer was that their P-51C and their B-25J were both at other airshows. However, our guests got to tour their museum and also get rides in their classic WWII vehicle fleet.
I had the honor of visiting the Palm Springs Air Museum in California back in February. They have a flying version of many WWII aircraft, plus some more recent aircraft. The highlight of my visit was to get up close to a F4U Corsair for the first time in my life and taking the interior tour of their B17. If you are ever in that area, it's well worth the time to visit.
love WWII stuff planes especially
dove on a few WWII planes including Zeros and betty bomber a couple others when I worked in Micronesia
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17013&d=1371060445
Indeed.. Great stuff.. Nothing beats the warbirds.. I toured the old CAF facility at Rebel Field in Harlingen Texas many times. I've also taken the "joy rides" on several of the big birds. There's just something (je ne sais quoi) about those old things.. Glad to see it's not lost on you younguns.. Cheers.. Ron
Army Chief
06-12-13, 14:56
I've not said much about it, and the web site itself (www.stormbirds.com) is about 10 years overdue for updating, but I've been heavily-involved with the Me-262 restoration and replication effort that has reintroduced the type (albeit with J-85 engines) to the world's airshow circuit over the past five or so years. The originator of this project, the late Stephen Snyder was actually a good friend of mine, hence the early connection.
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/images/P1010508.jpg
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/images/P1010507.jpg
Long, long story, but I've got a couple of decades involved in Me-262 research, and this will probably be remembered as my foremost passion, based upon the sheer investment I've made in it over the years. It really started as a way to get the word out on the job some extraordinary men had done at the end of the war ("Watson's Whizzers") to secure flightworthy examples for our own R&D purposes, but like most things, it had a way of growing in about a dozen different directions over the years.
AC
gunrunner505
06-12-13, 15:42
I've not said much about it, and the web site itself (www.stormbirds.com) is about 10 years overdue for updating, but I've been heavily-involved with the Me-262 restoration and replication effort that has reintroduced the type (albeit with J-85 engines) to the world's airshow circuit over the past five or so years. The originator of this project, the late Stephen Snyder was actually a good friend of mine, hence the early connection.
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/images/P1010508.jpg
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/images/P1010507.jpg
Long, long story, but I've got a couple of decades involved in Me-262 research, and this will probably be remembered as my foremost passion, based upon the sheer investment I've made in it over the years. It really started as a way to get the word out on the job some extraordinary men had done at the end of the war ("Watson's Whizzers") to secure flightworthy examples for our own R&D purposes, but like most things, it had a way of growing in about a dozen different directions over the years.
AC
AC, this is spooky. Steve Snyder was a family friend of ours as well. Truly a small world.
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Army Chief
06-12-13, 16:05
AC, this is spooky. Steve Snyder was a family friend of ours as well. Truly a small world.
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Personal sidebar: Steve had been after me to come work for him for years, and I was up in NJ on leave when he really made a hard pitch. I checked on my service obligation, found out I was in the clear, and told him that I would start the separation process the next Monday. This was on a Thursday. Drove back to Fort Bragg on Friday, and on Saturday I got a call from the airport that Steve had just crashed. Drove back up to NJ that same day, and ended up on the NTSB accident investigation team for his Canadair F-86E Sabre (http://www.sabre-design.com/profile_jet.htm) all that next week. My old design business site ought to look familiar, as it was themed around Steve's jet: www.sabre-design.com.
Small world indeed.
AC
my dad flew F-86 in Korea and also did some early test pilot stuff and training with them :)
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3176&d=1252566630
Personal sidebar: Steve had been after me to come work for him for years, and I was up in NJ on leave when he really made a hard pitch. I checked on my service obligation, found out I was in the clear, and told him that I would start the separation process the next Monday. This was on a Thursday. Drove back to Fort Bragg on Friday, and on Saturday I got a call from the airport that Steve had just crashed. Drove back up to NJ that same day, and ended up on the NTSB accident investigation team for his Canadair F-86E Sabre (http://www.sabre-design.com/profile_jet.htm) all that next week. My old design business site ought to look familiar, as it was themed around Steve's jet: www.sabre-design.com.
Small world indeed.
AC
Army Chief
06-12-13, 17:22
my dad flew F-86 in Korea and also did some early test pilot stuff and training with them :)
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3176&d=1252566630
Great, great machine. A great many F-86 pilots in Korea had flown fighters in WWII as well, and I spoke with several of them over the years. All but one named the Sabre as their all-time favorite.
Interestingly, when North American originally penned the lines of the F-86, they ended up with a capable, but uninspired aircraft performance-wise. Looking back at the wing design, they pulled out captured studies for a variant of the Me-262 wing, and the production changes made as a result gave us the magnificent aircraft we remember having a 13:1 kill ratio in combat.
If you look closely, the connection between the Me-262 and F-86 wings is unmistakeable: both featured a fairly aggressive sweep for the day, forward slats, very similar flaps, etc. folks generally don't realize that North American's pre-eminent jet fighter of the early '50s owed much to the design work that Messerschmitt had done in the previous decade.
AC
Back in the early 90's, I used to work a lot at the air shows in San Diego. Had fun doing static display work around a the warbirds. At that point, there were so many vets around we got to spend a lot of time chatting them up.
Some snaps I took of some friends at Gillespie Field.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/mrbieler/GillespieField1of3.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/mrbieler/GillespieField2of3.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k158/mrbieler/GillespieField3of3.jpg
Grand58742
06-12-13, 18:13
Question to the masses.
WWII aircraft thread
or
Vintage aircraft thread?
I can change the title if needs be.
Question to the masses.
WWII aircraft thread
or
Vintage aircraft thread?
I can change the title if needs be.
I say vintage as I have an interest for all eras of aviation. JMO
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SeriousStudent
06-12-13, 20:05
Very neat thread, I love the old warbirds.
I remember when the CAF moved from Harlingen to Midland, and have had the chance to take the tour. I still have family there, and get to visit periodically.
It's still magic, on every visit.
If any of you fellas get to see the fully restored B-24 'All American' my grandfather's name is on that plane-Troy Jacks.
Had a chance to ride on her from Mobile to a town very close to my own-Hattiesburg. Flight got cancelled. :(
-Jax
Grand58742
06-13-13, 00:58
Another member without GD access sent me this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9hvH3pZE14
Well worth the 18 minutes of your time.
Truly a hero among that generation of heroes.
Grand58742
06-13-13, 01:09
Four places on my bucket list:
The USAF Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Museum) at Wright-Patt
The Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Air_and_Space_Museum)
AMARG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMARG)and Pima Air and Space Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pima_Air_%26_Space_Museum) (one of two is achievable)
The one that is seriously out of reach for most, The Central Air Force Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Air_Force_Museum) in Monino
If any of you fellas get to see the fully restored B-24 'All American' my grandfather's name is on that plane-Troy Jacks.
Had a chance to ride on her from Mobile to a town very close to my own-Hattiesburg. Flight got cancelled. :(
-Jax
Can't recall exactly when but sometime in the last 10 years before my Grandfather died I was able to have him come stay with me for a change during the Holidays.
I can't describe the feeling of finally having him come stay in my home given all the summers I spent staying at his, being able to take my grandparents out to dinner for a change given all the meals they fed me when I was younger.
One of the high points for me was taking him to a local air show and him being able to climb through the All American B-24. He hadn't been to a squadron reunion since the early 80s and for all I know the last time he saw or was in a B-24 was when they returned after the war.
It was great just watching him walk through the plane, stop and look at something that seemed meaningless but was clearly significant to him for whatever reason. I'm so thankful I was able to do that for him. Best of all, as soon as other visitors understood he was actually a B-24 "crew member" he suddenly got the celebrity treatment and I think he enjoyed it for a change (he's wasn't normally not the type).
He really appreciated the gratitude and took the time to answer all the questions they asked, even the ones I thought were obvious. I was so glad I was able to facilitate that experience for him.
So thanks to your grandfather for his contribution to the All American.
CarlosDJackal
06-13-13, 13:12
Too bad these guys are in Chino, CA. But from the "Planes of Fame Air Museum". They had no less than FIVE of the SEVEN flying P-38 Lightnings there during this year's Airshow.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/945613_10151632279668489_1197957165_n.jpg
15 -20 years ago it was a Corsair that woke me Saturday mornings.
Now that can't be right because I'm pretty sure they discontinued Ba Ba Blacksheep in the early 80's.
If there were 2 planes I could fly in WWII it would have been the P51 Mustang or the P38 Lightning. The F86 would have to be an all time favorite jet fighter of mine.
P-38s were one of my Grandfathers favorite planes.
The story, as he related it, was that after a bombing run their B-24 was heavily damaged and like many they were separated from their group and they and a second damaged B-24 were trying to make it home while as many as five FW-190s were making continuous runs on them and taking their toll.
The radio calls of the two damaged B-24s were heard by a fighter escort of P-38s that were taking another bomber group to the target. Without authorization, perhaps in defiance of orders, depending upon the version of the story told by various crew members two P-38s left to assist the distressed B-24s.
By most accounts the two P-38s jumped the 190s and took four of them out of the sky before the remaining 190 fled. The two P-38s then returned to their group and nobody from either B-24 was able to learn who they were or the names of the pilots who saved them.
Both B-24s managed to return to their base in Turin, Italy. My Grandfather was convinced he survived the war due to those P-38s. Both B-24 crews were convinced "they'd had it" and "it was only a matter of time" before the 190s got em.
Now that can't be right because I'm pretty sure they discontinued Ba Ba Blacksheep in the early 80's.
I'm guessing re runs.
I'm guessing re runs.
To clarify his original comment was "15 -20 years ago it was a Corsair that woke me Saturday mornings. He was up there doing all kinds of stuff-- loud stuff-- and I'd get up and watch him do it", which to those of us that loved the TV show as much as I was rather amusing. Born in '69 I was the perfect age to enjoy that show and did so religiously every weekend. Came on at 10 or 11AM if I recall, then it was "Creature Double Feature" afterward. Or was it the Lone Ranger?
To clarify his original comment was "15 -20 years ago it was a Corsair that woke me Saturday mornings. He was up there doing all kinds of stuff-- loud stuff-- and I'd get up and watch him do it", which to those of us that loved the TV show as much as I was rather amusing. Born in '69 I was the perfect age to enjoy that show and did so religiously every weekend. Came on at 10 or 11AM if I recall, then it was "Creature Double Feature" afterward. Or was it the Lone Ranger?
Pretty sure it was actually Thurdsay nights.
I live a couple of hours from Middlesboro KY and visited the Glacier Girl restoration from the beginning until she flew out to her new home.. Good memories.. Cheers.. Ron
Pretty sure it was actually Thurdsay nights.
Not sure when it came on during it's prime time days, although I did watch it then as well. But in the early to mid eighties they used to run it weekend mornings, at least in our viewing area. Pretty sure it was 11AM Sat but it may have been Sunday. Probably did it for the many vets still around then, either way I was always in place ready for the beginning of the show and got to know each episode by heart.
Must say it was interesting to read the comments here about the show. Guess it was the combination of the time period, that awesome aircraft design and the coolness of Conrad which made it so memorable. I built a lot of model airplanes as a kids but none more than the Corsair.
Who here has a fascination with German experimental planes of WW2?
One of my favs is not a jet but a pusher/puller prop driven aircraft called the Pfeil or Arrow. The Dornier Do-335.
Having two engines with the same cross section as a single engine made it extremely fast-475 mph. Plus its just a striking aircraft to look at.
A.couple of interesting features it had was that it did have an ejection seat or seats depending on the model. The prop and upper vertical stabilizer both had explosive bolts to clear the pilot if he ever had to eject.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/Do335-5fs_zps8a8726c7.jpg
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/Do335A-0_95afs_zpsaee2f041.jpg
http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Dornier%20Do%20335%20Pfeil.htm
-Jax
Ned Christiansen
06-13-13, 22:04
You are an inscrutable bunch..... I can't tell for sure if yer messin' with me or you really think I was watching TV...... but I am talking about a real Corsair. It now resides in the Kalamazoo (MI) Air Zoo but I'm guessing it is still airworthy, as many of their pieces are.
They an awesome collection. including a P40, B-25, SR71, SPAD, Hispano-Suiza (license-made Me109 I believe), an SBD brought up from Lake Michigan's bottom and fully restored, and a ton more. Plus a pretty goo small arms collection. There's a Ford Trimotor around somewhere, which I think is associated with the Air Zoo. Took my Dad up in it ten years ago for Father's Day.
Must say it was interesting to read the comments here about the show. Guess it was the combination of the time period, that awesome aircraft design and the coolness of Conrad which made it so memorable. I built a lot of model airplanes as a kids but none more than the Corsair.
This is getting scary. I'm starting to think many of us are part of the same genetic experiment that somehow involves SOF magazine, Jivaro blowguns, Robert Conrad and corsairs.
My favorite was a huge scale model with a wingspan that was approx. three feet and they folded. If you tell me your other favorite models were Prehistoric Scenes and that that you had the giant orange T Rex and Teranadon it's going to get downright frightening.
http://www.tylisaari.com/prehistoricscenes/kits/main.html
D. Christopher
06-14-13, 00:35
Too bad these guys are in Chino, CA. But from the "Planes of Fame Air Museum". They had no less than FIVE of the SEVEN flying P-38 Lightnings there during this year's Airshow.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/945613_10151632279668489_1197957165_n.jpg
That first P-38F-1 "Glacier Girl" in the picture is being flown by Steve Hinton, one of the greatest pilots I've ever seen. His father was Lt. Col. Bruce Hinton, the first F-86 Sabre pilot to score a MiG kill in North Korea in 1950. His flight of 4 Sabres fooled the MiGs by mimicking the flight profile of the more docile F-80 Shooting Star. By flying at the same altitude and airspeed as the F-80 he lured the MiGs up for a look, thinking they had an easy kill. Hinton saw the MiGs first and his flight dove down on them and he killed one with a burst of machine gun fire. The MiG-15 pilot ejected and it wasn't until decades later that we found out it wasn't a North Korean pilot, but was in fact Russian Major Yakov Yefromeyenko.
That tactic of pretending to be a flight of more vulnerable aircraft would later be used in Vietnam by the great Robin Olds on the "Bolo" mission, with similar results against the MiG-21.
The only place you can see a Dornier Do-335 is at Udvar-Hazy, and it is beautiful. It's also a really big aircraft. Pictures don't convey just how big it really is. It was captured at the Dornier factory in April 1945 and was less than a week old. Watson's Whizzers were running around Europe for several months before the end of the war trying to obtain 2 flying examples of every aircraft on a top secret "wish list" that had been compiled by the experts at Wright Field. Under "Operation Lusty" they pulled together some of the best pilots, mechanics, and engineers in the service in order to capture the best examples of German technology they could lay their hands on before the Russians got them. All examples on "The List" had to be captured along with all documents, flight manuals, tools and special equipment possible, then made airworthy if possible and flown to Cherbourg France where they would be loaded onboard HMS Reaper for the trip to the U.S. The Do-335 was so fast that on its repositioning test flight from Munich to Cherbourg it ran away from the 2 P-51Ds that were escorting it and arrived in Cherbourg 45 minutes before they did. This Do-335 was tested at Pax River until 1948 and then was stored outside at NAS Norfolk for many years. It was eventually given to the Smithsonian in the early 1960s but was left in storage for many more years before it was finally shipped back to the Dornier factory in 1974. In 1975 Dornier restored Do-335 A-0 werk number 240102 in the factory at Oberpfaffenhofen where it was originally built in 1945. Some of the Dornier employees that helped restore it had originally helped build it. The most interesting discovery was that the pyrotechnic charges in the tail that Jaxman mentioned were still installed and still armed! The Pfiel had survived flight testing in Germany, being shipped to the U.S. aboard HMS Reaper, being flown and trucked around the U.S., years of storage in Virginia and Maryland, and finally another journey aboard a ship for the trip back to Germany before some of the men that built it discovered it still had live explosive charges in the tail. (Hey I wonder what THIS button does?...) :blink:
The only surviving Dornier 335 Pfiel, Arado 234 Blitz Bomber, and major pieces of the Heinkel 219 Uhu are all at Udvar-Hazy and they were all saved by Watson's Whizzers, Operation Lusty, and Gen. Hap Arnold.
I have all the BB back sheep shows on my HT setup :)
all the great old shows and lucky my kids like those old shows :)
incl wild wild west :)
used to have these dinky toys and the bombs you could put caps in for a real pop :) of course we would roll up like 10 caps for a bigger bang :)
I miss the smell of caps !!!!
This is getting scary. I'm starting to think many of us are part of the same genetic experiment that somehow involves SOF magazine, Jivaro blowguns, Robert Conrad and corsairs.
My favorite was a huge scale model with a wingspan that was approx. three feet and they folded. If you tell me your other favorite models were Prehistoric Scenes and that that you had the giant orange T Rex and Teranadon it's going to get downright frightening.
http://www.tylisaari.com/prehistoricscenes/kits/main.html
I have all the BB back sheep shows on my HT setup :)
all the great old shows and lucky my kids like those old shows :)
incl wild wild west :)
used to have these dinky toys and the bombs you could put caps in for a real pop :) of course we would roll up like 10 caps for a bigger bang :)
I miss the smell of caps !!!!
I remember those. Metal bomb and you put caps in the head and dropped it and it would detonate the caps.
We used to see how many caps we could wedge in there and throw it as high as we could. That stupid thing could entertain a kid like me for hours.
SeriousStudent
06-14-13, 18:46
I remember those. Metal bomb and you put caps in the head and dropped it and it would detonate the caps.
We used to see how many caps we could wedge in there and throw it as high as we could. That stupid thing could entertain a kid like me for hours.
I am completely unfamiliar with those.
But I would think it would be a very bad idea to sneak on top of the middle school gym roof, and drop them in the midst of the 7th grade girl's gym class.
And if you were caught doing that, you'd probably get beaten like a rented mule. But if the PE coach and janitor never caught you and your buddy Travis, you'd probably get away with it.
Hypothetically speaking.
But they do sound like neat toys.
I remember those. Metal bomb and you put caps in the head and dropped it and it would detonate the caps.
We used to see how many caps we could wedge in there and throw it as high as we could. That stupid thing could entertain a kid like me for hours.
It's amazing... the stuff that can be completely wiped clean out the mind, only to be remembered 30+ years later. We had a lot of fun with those things.
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I'm a total geek for those old warbirds too. Like Jax said I could talk about them all day. We just had WWII weekend locally, heres my little guy with one of the P51Ds
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/601021_10151753411412650_1644142853_n.jpg
They had FIFI there ( last flying B29 ) and a B17 along with a Spit VIII, Several P51Ds an F4U, multiple B25s and numerous other awesome aircraft. The Mid Atlantic Air museum has a P61 there they've been restoring for years, pretty cool to see that up close.
On the German warbird front, I'd love to see a 109 K4/G10 with the 30 mm (mk108) tater launcher. Totally awesome.
more pics Fifi and Yankee lady on the flight line
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/282736_10151007937462650_350910476_n.jpg
Fifi
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/547760_10151007937752650_818632153_n.jpg
Skdfz 251
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/375780_10151007936842650_163619741_n.jpg
TBM/D
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/551147_10151007935397650_1473375456_n.jpg
P40
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/564336_10151007934422650_687830311_n.jpg
P51D "the brat" with a photobomb by a C46
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/527128_10151007934057650_1728752399_n.jpg
Helldiver
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/296098_10151753410997650_81976379_n.jpg
F4U
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1010586_10151753410607650_82297698_n.jpg
Grand58742
06-15-13, 00:53
Always thought the shark nose art on the P-40s looked completely bad ass. The only aircraft that could wear it as awesomely it is the A-10.
I always thought the A7D looked bad ass painted up that way.
http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx143/nubaba/70-102076TFS23TFWFlyingTigers.jpg
I have an affinity for the late war Russian fighters that could go toe to toe with the BF109g/k, and FW190Ds too. Some wicked machines....
Yak 3
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/yak-3m.jpg
La7
http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/moscow_2004_files/day02_33.jpg
SeriousStudent
06-15-13, 09:22
Wow, what a great airshow! That must have been a blast. :)
Can anyone name the first true A10? First A10 in the sense of mission requirement/fulfillment and armor/armament. Hint, it's not American and yes it's a World War 2 bird. Split66's post is sort of a clue. ;)
-Jax
Army Chief
06-15-13, 14:11
Can anyone name the first true A10? First A10 in the sense of mission requirement/fulfillment and armor/armament. Hint, it's not American and yes it's a World War 2 bird. Split66's post is sort of a clue. ;)
-Jax
You're probably thinking Soviet (Il-2) , and rightly so, but I tend to associate the Ju-87 Stuka with that mission role; probably because the name of Hans Ulrich Rudel came up so often during the Thunderbolt II's development.
AC
Correct AC.
The Stuka as well. I've always thought the Sturmovik was better suited for its role in close air support because it wasn't intended as dive bomber from the ground up and it had better protection.
The Soviets used to go on hunter/killer missions against the Stuka w/the IL-2 when they were low on fighters before the Ural mountain factories finally got up to speed on producing Yaks, Migs, etc.
It was the most produced aircraft in world war 2. Interesting fact considering that on 22 June 41 when Operation Barbarosa started they had 250 Sturmoviks in service. A friendly and courteous letter from the jovial comrade Stalin to the factories stating that plane was as important as air and bread changed that number quickly!
Nothing taking away from the Ju-87 though. Fantastic plane and if you haven't read Rudel's own book about flying the Stuka stop what you are doing in life right now and read it. :) It is absolutely stunning what that man accomplished and went through. It's arguably my favorite book concerning military aviation.
-Jax
Grand58742
06-15-13, 14:54
The Il-2 Bark was a fine aircraft and something the Western air forces kind of missed the boat on until late in the war. While we had light bombers, attack aircraft, dive bombers and double duty fighters, we really didn't have anything purposely designed to go low and slow with heavy armor to support the front lines. The A-1 Skyraider really was the first US aircraft purposely designed in that regard but arrived too late to be used in the war.
While most of our aircraft hitting ground targets held themselves in good regard over the battlefield, the Red Air Force really got the concepts of close air support down pat during the Eastern Campaigns.
My Grandfather flew over 50 bombing missions while in Europe and Africa during WWII. He was a tail gunner in the 9th and flew mostly in A-20. Below he is in front of the Bakersfield Beauty.
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o616/mgdave/4EB64528-BBA7-416E-8295-72D5635ED960-12395-00000DBAB649CEAA_zps0ced2c27.jpg
Ned Christiansen
06-18-13, 00:34
So I had my visit the other day with the gent I mentioned on pg 2. He was bombardier/nav on a J-model B25. Among the snippits of info (I did not "interview" him or badger him for info), the eight .50's up front were regulated to converge at 600 yards which seems good since then at 1200 they would again be maybe 5' apart. They would 'fishtail" the ship to better hose a larger area. On two missions they let him in the copilot's seat to do just that (or it may have been on two training flights).
Eighteen .50's total on the J. That's a lotta hurt comin' down! He completed 51 missions, a few of them were full-moon night sorties. Altogether as I recall from reading, the Burma Bridge Busters took out 198 bridges which was a little-known but critical accomplishment in the Burma-China-India theater. Some bridges immediately underwent repairs. They would purposely wait until it was almost done to hit it again.
Two books-- Burma Bridge Busters and Like No Land You've Known. There are probably others, but great reading!
He said Japanese defenders were "good shots". In these two books it varies between that and "ineffective, sporadic machinegun fire". Yet from what I read, not recently written mind you, a good many B25's did not come back and remain to be found.
Stukas-- as I understand it, even though it was produced in great numbers, very few remain. One is in Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry-- and if you're there and don't see the U-505 display it would be a huge mistake.
ShortytheFirefighter
06-18-13, 09:29
They've done a wonderful job on the U505 display. I went there for the first time when I was 5 and I've been back several times.
The Stuka still has battle damage from when it was captured, it's pretty amazing to see that after all these years.
The Chicago Science Museum in general is a pretty awesome museum, if you're in the area I'd put it near the top of the list of places to go see. Bonus: there is a Giordano's pizza nearby. Bring your appetite and a bunch of friends with appetites.
sandman99and9
06-18-13, 21:07
Did someone say Stuka ?? I was in Chicago last week for a trade show and we had our end of show bash at the museum of science. We got to walk through the U505 and it is a kick-ass exibit !!!
Here are a few pics.
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr147/sandman99and9/IMG_20130611_205150.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/user/sandman99and9/media/IMG_20130611_205150.jpg.html)
U505
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr147/sandman99and9/U505.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/user/sandman99and9/media/U505.jpg.html)
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr147/sandman99and9/U505Torpedo.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/user/sandman99and9/media/U505Torpedo.jpg.html)
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr147/sandman99and9/U505deckguns.jpg (http://s478.photobucket.com/user/sandman99and9/media/U505deckguns.jpg.html)
They told us that the exibit was built around the sub for about 12.5 million $$
Lots of pictures and a short movie plus cool displays of a cutaway torpedo and depth charges including the Hedgehog charges.
You better be a small guy to be sub crewman back in those days :)
S.M.
My Grandfather flew over 50 bombing missions while in Europe and Africa during WWII. He was a tail gunner in the 9th and flew mostly in A-20. Below he is in front of the Bakersfield Beauty.
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o616/mgdave/4EB64528-BBA7-416E-8295-72D5635ED960-12395-00000DBAB649CEAA_zps0ced2c27.jpg
Very interesting Dave. Can we assume he made it through ok having completed so many missions? If so, was he able to share any memorable stories with you?
Fascinating stuff!
Did someone say "Corsair"?
15 -20 years ago it was a Corsair that woke me Saturday mornings. He was up there doing all kinds of stuff-- loud stuff-- and I'd get up and watch him do it. Apparently I lived under some kind of free-to-romp zone. It was so cool-- those things are all muscle.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG773.jpeg
Did you say Corsair? :) This one is on display at the Smithsonian Institution National Air and Space Museum (Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center) at Dulles International Airport near Washington, DC.
I fell in love with the Corsair since I saw the tv show BAA BAA Black Shack and read the biography of Greg Boyington.
my dad flew F-86 in Korea and also did some early test pilot stuff and training with them :)
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3176&d=1252566630
Those guys probably scrambled to go up against one of these:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG777.jpeg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG773.jpeg
Did you say Corsair? :) This one is on display at the Smithsonian Institution National Air and Space Museum (Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center) at Dulles International Airport near Washington, DC.
I fell in love with the Corsair since I saw the tv show BAA BAA Black Shack and read the biography of Greg Boyington.
That's the stuff. I'd love to spend a week at the Smithsonian.
That's the stuff. I'd love to spend a week at the Smithsonian.
The Udvar-Hazy center is a cool museum and much easier to access than the main Air and Space Museum in DC.
The best military aircraft museum is the Air Force Museum located at Wright Patterson AFB near Dayton, OH. It is also the biggest airplane museum in the world.
Army Chief
06-19-13, 16:19
Little known fact: just after WWII, a good friend of mine, the late Robert Strobell, oversaw the collection and storage of a number of mainly foreign aircraft which were consolidated at the old Douglas Aircraft Company factory in Chicago. (These were made available to science and industry types who wanted to study our former adversaries' most effective designs.)
Bob, a former Jug pilot with the 8th AF, had been one of Colonel Hal Watson's Me-262 pilots in the closing days of the war; however, he left the program following a mishap involving a war-weary P-47 that left him laid-up in France. Upon his recovery and return to the USA, specifically to the Douglas plant, he recognized that many of the machines in his keeping were unlikely to survive anywhere else. Setting aside the best examples for safekeeping and eventual restoration, he managed the fleet that eventually led to the creation of the Wright-Patt USAF Museum itself.
As time wore on, many of the other "surplus" German and Japanese aircraft that were not suited to relevant R&D purposes were sent over as landfill for a nearby construction project at Orchard Place, and buried in an extensive ground-leveling project.
If you know the airport identifier of Chicago O'Hare International Airport, then you can probably figure out that ORD was/is Orchard Place, and those captured aircraft were being used to level ground for the construction of runways. So ... oddly enough, every time you take off or land at Chicago O'Hare, you're actually overflying a "dead fleet" of discarded and wrecked enemy planes from the war.
Sometimes the truth is indeed stranger than fiction.
AC
That's interesting AC, thanks. I've flown out of ORD countless times. Next time, you can guess what I'll be thinking about.
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The Udvar-Hazy center is a cool museum and much easier to access than the main Air and Space Museum in DC.
The best military aircraft museum is the Air Force Museum located at Wright Patterson AFB near Dayton, OH. It is also the biggest airplane museum in the world.
Good to know, but the Smithsonian also has dinosaurs.
:D
It's just one of those places I could easily spend an entire week if I had the money to do so.
Pratt & Whitney radial of the Ford Trimotor I worked on while at Grand Canyon Airlines. These engines are a work of art
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Ah%20Souli%20Tribe/0084192-R1-015-6.jpg
The Beech 18 that's at the local airport
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Aviation/DSC_0010_zps30439cd6.jpg
Grand58742
08-09-13, 18:38
Not to clutter up the Sukhoi thread. Just found this today. Hadn't seen it before. Secret Allied Aircraft of WWII.
PART 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ktGhohLQo)
PART 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLngvyA1Ho)
PART 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC6vwXYWhII)
I have always been enamored with the Grumman F4F Wildcat. Yeah, it was "outclassed" by the Zero in manueverability but was built like a brick shithouse and could absorb punishment. It bore the brunt of the "early" days in the Pacific. Tactics such as the "Thatcher Weave" were developed to actually make it at least a hold-your-own aircraft until the Hellcat and Corsair came on line.
Anyone ever read "The Cactus Air Force"? It was about the USMC pilots flying from Henderson Field on Guadalcanal during the hairy days of late 1942. Good read.
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