View Full Version : Commercial Airliner Hit And Damaged By Large Unknown Object At 26,000 Ft
Well this seems to be an unusual first, which is also reported today on NBC. Anyone have any rational suggestions? I'm thinking weather balloon or the sort but the dent seems too deep. And do they even still use weather ballons anymore?
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b32/Safetyhit/Plane1.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/Safetyhit/media/Plane1.jpg.html)
"A passenger jet has been forced to make an emergency landing, after an unidentified “foreign object” smashed into its nose cone at 26,000 feet."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/a-plane-mystery-passenger-jet-makes-emergency-landing-after-being-hit-by-unidentified-foreign-object-at-26000-feet-8654040.html
It was the new superman!
Really that's crazy. I wonder if they saw anything at all.
NoveskeFan
06-11-13, 12:38
What altitude range do drones have?
Voodoochild
06-11-13, 12:40
I've seen on other forums where people are saying bird strike but I don't see any blood, guts, or feathers. It clearly looks like a metal on metal hit. Running into a drone is possible.
I'd think it was something relatively soft as the only real paint damage is from the metal folding (edges of the impact area), but there's no blood and that's way too high for a bird, I'd think.
A ball of ice perhaps? One that formed higher and gathered material as it fell? That's a weird one, for sure!
PA PATRIOT
06-11-13, 12:46
Structural failure of the nose cone.
Now if it was hit by a object only a few more feet up would have been right though the wind shied.
My reasoning is if the air liner is traveling 400 to 550mph and if the object had any speed of motion then the damage would have been much greater. Also I would like to see the radar return for the plane and ground based units as a drone or weather balloon would have been detected either as a collision alert for the plane or a Bogey by the ground based units.
We would also be able to track what hit the airliner after the collision to a general area of the earth were it fell or landed. If the impact truly did occur at 26,000 feet then it is to high for a bird strike do to temp and lack of oxygen and the ice ball hit theory could be possible but improbable do to the fact there would have been more then one strike.
...but there's no blood and that's way too high for a bird, I'd think.
Too high for a bird as we know them is right, but my longtime suspicions regarding the "extinction" of the pterodactyl are looking much more sound as of today.
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0t3zf6mw01rnx6njo1_500.gif
SomeOtherGuy
06-11-13, 13:11
Birds have been found at jet altitudes before - apparently as high as 37,000 feet in a 1975 collision:
http://askville.amazon.com/highest-ground-bird-fly-flies/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6813383
There's also some kind of duck that's regularly seen at 29,000 feet or more in the Himalayas. Which is sort of not too far from where this incident happened. Crazy as it may sound, a bird strike would be my first guess.
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0t3zf6mw01rnx6njo1_500.gif
SomeOtherGuy while your post was rather educational this one has simply got to be the right answer. Guess maybe pterodactyls really are gone afterall. :(
Spurholder
06-11-13, 13:45
Rod Serling was right all along. It was this guy:
http://gesslr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/gremlins2.png
ETA: Damn DOD site blockers. Sorry, JSantoro.
RogerinTPA
06-11-13, 13:57
Not buying it. A collision at altitude, at a 75's airspeed, with something large enough to dent the nose cone like that, more than likely would have taken the nose cone off or punched a hole in it, since it is a fiberglass type construction to allow for the radar to work. I suspect the collision occurred on the ground at some backwater airport in China, the crew didn't want to write it up and ground it, then spend a day or two getting it fixed at said shit hole airport, and fabricated this story.
Mauser KAR98K
06-11-13, 14:03
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3750/9019032580_729e087882.jpg
ETW: Umm, has anyone seen Mary Poppins around recently?
Birds have been found at jet altitudes before - apparently as high as 37,000 feet in a 1975 collision:
http://askville.amazon.com/highest-ground-bird-fly-flies/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=6813383
There's also some kind of duck that's regularly seen at 29,000 feet or more in the Himalayas. Which is sort of not too far from where this incident happened. Crazy as it may sound, a bird strike would be my first guess.
Some species of cranes can fly as high as 20,000 feet.
Not buying it. A collision at altitude, at a 75's airspeed, with something large enough to dent the nose cone like that, more than likely would have taken the nose cone off or punched a hole in it, since it is a fiberglass type construction to allow for the radar to work. I suspect the collision occurred on the ground at some backwater airport in China, the crew didn't want to write it up and ground it, then spend a day or two getting it fixed at said shit hole airport, and fabricated this story.
Both the passengers and the crew reported being impacted in flight, then the stability issues arose immediately afterward. By all accounts it seems pretty clear cut in that regard.
If whatever hit it was metal, would they be able to use flight recorders and gps to look for something on the ground? Or would that just cover to large of an area?
I would think ice as well. It looks so clean.
Moose-Knuckle
06-11-13, 17:27
What altitude range do drones have?
They vary, USAF/CIA/NRO has had UAVs capable of space flight for some time now.
Failure2Stop
06-11-13, 17:32
One thing I am not is an Aviation Impact Investigator, however, having seen a bunch of stuff hit in collisions, I would expect to see smearing rearward of the impact. If an impact caused the nose-cone to collapse inward as shown, it would be expected to have enough force to mess up the paint/top layer of the nose-cone. Not seeing that would cause me to believe that the collapse was due to structural failure under the pressure of flight speed air resistance.
I actually know someone who used to investigate this stuff for a living, I'll throw him a txt.
I wouldnt think bird strike is possible. But at Mach .6-.7, wouldn't any fluids, feathers, etc. would be swept away pretty easily?
who knows ? Chinese air space ?
Army Chief
06-11-13, 18:33
I've spent most of my military career as an aircraft accident investigator, and agree that this looks very similar to a typical bird strike -- only the altitude doesn't really make sense, and as stated, one would expect to see at least some residual organic matter.
If not something living, we are left with a strike from some inanimate object, and your guess is as good as mine. I will say this, however, that is really not a great deal of damage, given the speeds involved, so my guess would be something small, man-made and of only medium density. The dark marks at the lower portion of the impact point almost look like rubber transfers; from what, I have no idea.
Still just a guess though ... and not a particularly good one.
AC
If that was a bird it was tiny. Not enough damage to be something much bigger than a sparrow. My company has had a few airplanes hit big birds like geese at relatively low speeds of 150-200kts and they went through the nose of the airplane, although they stopped short of penetrating the forward pressure bulk head. If that was a big bird(like a Duck that was mentioned) it would have gone through the radome into the forward avionics bay at the speed they were going at altitude.
I've spent most of my military career as an aircraft accident investigator, and agree that this looks very similar to a typical bird strike -- only the altitude doesn't really make sense, and as stated, one would expect to see at least some residual organic matter.
If not something living, we are left with a strike from some inanimate object, and your guess is as good as mine. I will say this, however, that is really not a great deal of damage, given the speeds involved, so my guess would be something small, man-made and of only medium density. The dark marks at the lower portion of the impact point almost look like rubber transfers; from what, I have no idea.
Still just a guess though ... and not a particularly good one.
AC
My Navy friend says it looks a lot like hail damage. But he also says it's impossible to be sure with what's given.
THESE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar-headed_goose) are indigenous to the region, and are known to fly to 25K+ feet. Not too big either.
Someone should call their space program to see if they're missing any rockets.
Army Chief
06-11-13, 20:27
My Navy friend says it looks a lot like hail damage. But he also says it's impossible to be sure with what's given.
Hail or ice strike me as wholly plausible.
AC
PA PATRIOT
06-11-13, 20:42
Hail or ice strike me as wholly plausible.
AC
But there is only one strike and a solid mass like ice should have left a more pronounced cone like creator. Plus at the speeds were are talking about I would submit that a golf ball size piece of solid ice would have penetrated the nose radar cap.
Now if the ice was more slush than solid then maybe but we still have to account why there was only a single hit on the aircraft flying through a weather event capable of producing ice or forming ice.
FlyingHunter
06-11-13, 21:22
This also looks entirely plausible. Examine the left side of this image, the structural damage appears to match the aircraft damage.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://hiscrivener.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/nancy-pelosi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sodahead.com/fun/true-or-false-if-nancy-pelosi-said-something-that-made-sense-two-times-in-a-row-i-would-see-that/question-3548825/&h=600&w=750&sz=64&tbnid=D5baShEiFNHRLM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=119&zoom=1&usg=__D0YMFoXxUISOdpa-nL73vh2N0gA=&docid=WyrSWZWlESMM9M&sa=X&ei=oNq3UcupFI3G9gSMu4HQCQ&ved=0CF4Q9QEwDw&dur=428
Large turd dropped from a Russian cargo freighter trying to bomb china. Or some such crap, who knows. Bird strike would be the last thing I would think about at that altitude. Russia has seen some pretty impressive meteor showers lately.
I've spent most of my military career as an aircraft accident investigator, and agree that this looks very similar to a typical bird strike -- only the altitude doesn't really make sense, and as stated, one would expect to see at least some residual organic matter.
If not something living, we are left with a strike from some inanimate object, and your guess is as good as mine. I will say this, however, that is really not a great deal of damage, given the speeds involved, so my guess would be something small, man-made and of only medium density. The dark marks at the lower portion of the impact point almost look like rubber transfers; from what, I have no idea.
Still just a guess though ... and not a particularly good one.
AC
What about those 'foam cooler' looking boxes that hold the data recorder/transmitter for a weather balloon?
Army Chief
06-11-13, 21:55
What about those 'foam cooler' looking boxes that hold the data recorder/transmitter for a weather balloon?
Not terribly familiar with them, and I'm admittedly out of my element a bit when talking about high-altitude passenger jets, but that sounds entirely plausible to me. The damage pattern itself is consistent with any number of theories, but I'm still wondering about the dark-streaked material that seems to have been transferred during the strike. That's also why I can't quite shake the man-made idea.
AC
Could be something smaller that created an initial aerodynamic imperfection in the cone which during further flight began to fold in on itself due to pressure. The ending "dent" may not be what it looked like on impact. Out of my element though.
Could be something smaller that created an initial aerodynamic imperfection in the cone which during further flight began to fold in on itself due to pressure. The ending "dent" may not be what it looked like on impact. Out of my element though.
Still would have to explain the material transference on the bottom of the damage tho no?
Is a meteorite or some sort of space junk that decided to reenter outside the realm of possibility?
I'll play.
A plane above it at 35k feet discharged its turd tank. The ball of crap water froze as it fell. It's called a Boeing Bomb. The frozen poo ball does not fall straight down, but at an angle making some headway still. So the relative speed that the damaged plane hit it was much less than its traveling speed of estimated 400 kts. So it was a softened impact and that's why it did not rip the nose completely to pieces.
Those dark marks around the dent are frozen dingle berries.
Grand58742
06-12-13, 05:02
Is a meteorite or some sort of space junk that decided to reenter outside the realm of possibility?
Meteorite would have destroyed the plane or there would have been far more significant damage. Typical speeds according to this web site (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/meteors/impacts.html) are 300-400 MPH after reentry for smaller objects. So aircraft traveling at 500 MPH or so one way meets dense rock/metal object going the other way will be pretty catastrophic.
As for space junk, same principle would probably apply. A lot of it will be burned up in reentry and that which survives is more than likely fairly dense and cause more damage to the craft. Can't speak with any certainty on that one though.
HackerF15E
06-12-13, 08:28
Swamp gas and Venus.
VooDoo6Actual
06-12-13, 08:39
Joe Biden's ego.
Could they have hit something that fell from a higher flying aircraft? Maybe a piece of debris broke loose from a higher flying airplane. At that altitude most fluids would be frozen, correct?
Air China? My guess is an Asian driver is to blame.
PA PATRIOT
06-12-13, 16:08
Air China? My guess is an Asian driver is to blame.
Now that remark is just "F"ed up.
Everyone knows a female pilot from New Jersey was most likely the cause.
I'm going to go with this plane didn't hit anything at all. I think it was a material/or backing structure failure and it caved in. Granted I have nothing to do with aviation, but have spent a large portion of my adult life working on industrial fans, some of which have some very high air speeds involved, such as acutal wind tunnels. This to me looks like air itself pushed it in. It looks very similar to many structure failures I have seen with large, high velocity fans. The "scuff/scratch" marks are just where the material fatigued and the paint flaked off. The only difference is at that speed it will flake off in a way making it look like something hit it. Google aircraft bird strikes. Even a small bird at speeds your common single engine prop planes travel almost always result in a penetration to the craft. It an actual object hit that plane nearly that square on, I believe without a doubt it would have penetrated or left scratches down the plane, because at that speed things are just going to bounce off far enough away for a couple hundred feet of plane to go by and not scratch it again. Infact, the aerodynamics will pull it to the plane, just like how a smaller craft will get sucked up to and under a larger ship.
My money is one the inner cone reinforcements failing. At 500 mph, this alone will make a thump loud enough & stout enough to seem like an impact.
RogerinTPA
06-13-13, 10:03
I'm going to go with this plane didn't hit anything at all. I think it was a material/or backing structure failure and it caved in. Granted I have nothing to do with aviation, but have spent a large portion of my adult life working on industrial fans, some of which have some very high air speeds involved, such as acutal wind tunnels. This to me looks like air itself pushed it in. It looks very similar to many structure failures I have seen with large, high velocity fans. The "scuff/scratch" marks are just where the material fatigued and the paint flaked off. The only difference is at that speed it will flake off in a way making it look like something hit it. Google aircraft bird strikes. Even a small bird at speeds your common single engine prop planes travel almost always result in a penetration to the craft. It an actual object hit that plane nearly that square on, I believe without a doubt it would have penetrated or left scratches down the plane, because at that speed things are just going to bounce off far enough away for a couple hundred feet of plane to go by and not scratch it again. Infact, the aerodynamics will pull it to the plane, just like how a smaller craft will get sucked up to and under a larger ship.
My money is one the inner cone reinforcements failing. At 500 mph, this alone will make a thump loud enough & stout enough to seem like an impact.
Agree to a degree on materiel failure, but thats not how aerodynamics works, but essentially, you are correct. What comes off larger aircraft is called 'wake turbulence', basically lateral tornados which are generated as the aircraft moves through the air, off of each wing. The wake also has a decent rate of approx. 4-900 FPM. The larger, slower and heavier the aircraft, the larger, more intense wake turbulence becomes. If caught on the right side of this wake, you will be thrusted upward, if caught on the left, you will be thrusted downward. If caught in the middle, like a smaller aircraft, you can be flipped inverted.
http://www.google.com/search?q=wake+turbulence&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WuC5Ueq2BIq49QTb4IHoCQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=955&bih=497#facrc=_&imgrc=AHPxNz27DJnBZM%3A%3B5osuQhR5wXYcxM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pilotfriend.com%252Fsafe%252Fsafety%252Fimages%252F4.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.pilotfriend.com%252Fsafe%252Fsafety%252Fwake_turb.htm%3B300%3B354
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/F0703001.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0703.html&h=399&w=550&sz=71&tbnid=GaF06Bu1zne5iM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=124&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwake%2Bturbulence%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wake+turbulence&usg=__aaXv1tiLCbaUaIiAvolBs-NTbzI=&docid=BzPd2gI8JID9VM&sa=X&ei=WuC5Ueq2BIq49QTb4IHoCQ&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAg&dur=1615
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg/250px-Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_turbulence&h=203&w=250&sz=17&tbnid=YvhdYq9Au6oqcM:&tbnh=91&tbnw=112&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwake%2Bturbulence%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wake+turbulence&usg=__g3T2GPtSIlxHplxGV7z-X6mTzhA=&docid=iPDP5621xoMtIM&sa=X&ei=WuC5Ueq2BIq49QTb4IHoCQ&ved=0CDYQ9QEwAQ&dur=7503
Swamp gas and Venus.
Or mass hysteria. ;)
I don't know the particular construction of that radome but I would think structural failure to that degree would be pretty unlikely. On F-18's and similar they use a honeycomb material sandwiched between fiberglass and other materials, they can take one hell of a beating. Is it possible? Sure, anything's possible but to me it looks like a strike of some kind but I'm guessing no on the bird due to lack of blood, feathers, etc.
4 years as an AIMD (AMS3) composite tech, I fixed radomes, etc, in the Navy fixing all sorts of planes due to birds and dipshit yellow shirts steering aircraft into hard parts on the boat.
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