View Full Version : Evolving Cost Of Owning An AR
What percentage of AR rifle buyers (not builders) would you guess simply leave the rifle stock?
The more I read, the more it seems that owning an AR is not like owning any other type rifle.
I've owned a number of bolt guns and have been satisfied with a sling and a scope and that's been enough customizing for me, but the more I read about AR's, the more I think the cost of ownership is going to skyrocket.
Why?
Because AR's are eminently customizable, and once bought few can resist customizing?
If this is the case, perhaps I ought to pass as I'm likely to get addicted to customizing as the next guy...
Or, am I wrong? Or partially wrong, like maybe only half or less buyers get deeply into customizing?
I hope I'm wrong, cuz man, I got enough expensive hobbies and AR's look like a brand new one!
What do you guys think?
Thanks!
Serious AR owners, and I say that only because there really are two categories of AR owners, don't "customize" their rifles. They shoot them & based on their individual performance, add equipment they feel will increase their effectiveness with the weapon.
For me personally, that meant nothing more than an optic (1x RDS), a Magpul MOE+ grip, MOE Stock, a stubby vertical grip, BCM Mod 3 charging handle, & rail covers. Those 5 things cost substantially less than a quality bolt gun scope. All this other stupid shit you see is just stuff ignorant people put on their cheap out of spec Bushmaster/DPMS/Windham/Mohawk/Doublestar rifles because they think it looks cool.
Believe me, there is a difference between what serious shooters do & what YouTube commandos do. The best upgrade you can get is quality mags, ammo, & training.
I would say it goes both ways, a lot of people purchase a AR and never run a single round through it. Depends on you really more then anything else. Look at your other expensive hobbies and compare. If you take your time and do a little research. You can pick a nice rifle and not have to upgrade everything ( because you bought it with the upgrades you desired already.) Learn from others mistakes ( like myself,) and shoot a few in a couple of different configurations so that when you do get one, you don't need to sink an additional $500 in accessories to get it where you want it ;)
Biggest expense these days is AMMO ( when you can find it.)
I never wanted or had a need for an AR before last September. I decided to get one because I felt like there was a real possibility of not being able to get one in the future. I was one of the lucky ones that got the Troy carbine from Dick's for $800. It was setup like I wanted with the troy rail and sights. I didn't want to buy a gun I had to change parts on to make it mine. Having said that, 8 months later I have spent almost $800 for needed parts and accessories and haven't bought optics yet!!! This doesn't include magazines and ammunition. These things are worse than motorcycles! It is hard to quit! Buy the rifle that best suits your needs and refine it a little at a time. Good luck. GH
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t414/ghchhisc/Latestgunpic_zpse83c815f.jpg
More then you probably think. Many do not even want rails on their gun. A good optic on top of the flat upper reciever suits many just fine. All that other stuff adds weight and can many times just get in the way.
I put a rail on mine because I wanted them free floated, not for the rail space. Optic, light, and sling.
Failure2Stop
06-11-13, 17:19
I think that it depends a lot on what/how you buy.
I would venture that there are a lot more folks that make changes to the base furniture provided with a 6920 than to a Noveske Recon, Daniel Defense DDM4V7, or KAC SR15E3 Mod 1.
I would say that the most frequently changed parts are stocks, followed by pistol grips and handguards.
I can't stand the stock A2 grip, so it either gets replaced or the finger bump removed on all of my rifles.
I think that stocks are the most popular swap as they are easy to do, and generally provide a sling-swivel that is lacking on M4 clones.
Of people that do not frequent forums or are not exposed to the benefits of some of the alterations, I would SWAG that a pretty good percentage stay essentially stock (other than those poor guys that receive the CTD catalog).
OP, adding gear to your AR can run some cash, but ammo to shoot it every week is like having a car payment! I average $300 a month on reloading components and I'm sure lots of members go through more ammo than me.
If you had to take an AR to the gunsmith every time you wanted to mod it, I expect that modifying AR's would be a whole lot less popular.
Serious AR owners, and I say that only because there really are two categories of AR owners, don't "customize" their rifles. They shoot them & based on their individual performance, add equipment they feel will increase their effectiveness with the weapon.
I think that would be customizing, actually.
SilverBullet432
06-11-13, 20:09
I think that would be customizing, actually.
think he means, people that go all out and "Mall ninja" their gun. my rifle came with a full free float rail, and magpul moe stock. ive added an moe + grip, (a2 is pitiful), and some better rail covers. these items are fully functional and dont just make the gun look "cool" in my honest opinion. sights are a must though, as mine is full flat top. mbus was the more economical choice. they work, they cost less then full steel ones. perfect day!!
PatrioticDisorder
06-11-13, 20:39
Stocks, triggers, slings/sling attachment points, grip, foregrip/handguard, BUIS, optics, lights, IR, mags, ammo... Ya the costs certainly add up!
I've owned a number of bolt guns and have been satisfied with a sling and a scope and that's been enough customizing for me
Costs me WAY more to do a Bolt gun than an AR. 1k glass, minimum. Bed job, Timney, Base, Rings? FORGET IT.
Much of the add-ons really aren't "necessary." It's a matter of preference. I walked all over, well armed, with an M16A2... but got on the interewebs to see what they were lacking. A good carbine will take you 90% of the way to well armed, the rest is just looking for that last 10%. An quality RDS will get you maybe 5%, changing out slings, stocks or hand guards are 1% changes at best (all things I have done in the last year.)
The most important factor is experience, given a quality rifle to begin with.
crosseyedshooter
06-11-13, 21:23
The honest truth for me is that I'm not a soldier, work in law enforcement or an "operator." For me, this is a hobby plain and simple. I have an appreciation for elegant engineering and like to shoot in the weekends. If I have disposable income to try out some new piece of well-engineered kit, then why not?
Great information.
Thanks everyone!
Littlelebowski
06-12-13, 09:10
Red dot sight (RDS) or low power variable scope, backup irons, sling, and white light. The rest is just fun and in some cases needed for physical disabilities and/or shooting style.
Costs me WAY more to do a Bolt gun than an AR. 1k glass, minimum. Bed job, Timney, Base, Rings? FORGET IT.
Sounds like a hipster bolt gun.....
There is adding things that add to the function for example a light ? scope or red dot sight or free float for some reason etc. sure. As the fad several years ago Tacticool add ons no.
I used to want to have all sort of whiz bang stuff on my rifles. 47 acres of rail estate, grips, lights, illuminators, can openers, dish washers and a place to put my beer. :eek:
Then I got a little older and wiser and realized, Hey, I'm not a soldier, marching through the burning desert, kicking in doors and killing bad guys. I have no need of even half the things they do. I need a simple, reliable rifle to defend my home and family.
Since then, I've standardized to a rifle made with high quality components, simple forends (MOE or M4), grips, stocks, an RDS and a light. That's all I personally need and want to spend $$ on.
it might also be that we're more exposed to modded ARs. People post pics on websites when they get a new rail or optic or whatever but for those that dont mod, they dont bother posting.
i have unmodded ARS that ive never posted online just bc it looks like every other a2 rifle and carbine
Tzintzuntzan
06-12-13, 16:05
As many have mentioned you should try and base your purchases on the needs you have for the rifle. My guess is that this is the same reason you haven't swapped the stock, trigger, etc on the bolt action rifles you have. I believe this is why you are starting to think that the cost of ownership for an AR15 seems to "sky rocket". Once you throw on a $200-300 handguard, $400 red dot, $100-200 aftermarket optic mount, $150-300 white light plus mount, $50-200 aftermarket stock, $20-30 pistol grip, $30-60 sling, $20-30 sling attachment points, $100-200 BUIS, $100-500 worth of magazines... things really start to add up. And this list isn't even covering variable optics, IR, laser, NOD, rig or carrier, let alone ammo.
There's a difference between "customizing" your rifle vs optimizing your rifle for your uses.
"Customizing" is usually just for looks and showing off.
Optimizing is going to show in your shooting and how the rifle performs.
To mod or not to mod. Most of it probably comes from the exposure one gets on these forums. If it wasn’t for the forums, many that do mod their guns probably would not, and many AR owners would probably not be AR owners.
I’ve had mine for a year and a half and I haven’t even put an optic on it and don’t have a bag full of mags. I do not have any desire to mod mine, however I am planning on putting a scope on it and after I do, I’m guessing I’ll want to put a new trigger group in, but I’m sure I’ll never go further than that. I’ve done more to my 1911 in the first 3 months of ownership than I’ll ever do to my AR.
Red dot sight (RDS) or low power variable scope, backup irons, sling, and white light. The rest is just fun and in some cases needed for physical disabilities and/or shooting style.
^ this
Then next you can start looking at battle belts, plate carriers, medical kits, silencers, night vision, gun safes, steel targets....
fallenangelhim
06-12-13, 22:00
Owning an AR is like owning a sports car.
You can leave it stock, you can customize it, you can drive it on the weekends only, or drive it to work everyday, or race it everyday or race it on the weekends.
SW-Shooter
06-12-13, 23:23
When I buy a complete AR, or even build one from parts; I change the trigger, safety, stock, grip, rail system, buffer and spring, charging handle, BUIS or sight system, and maybe an optic (if I don't stick with iron sights). If you get an optic you have to get a good mount.
They don't just call it Black Rifle Disease because it sounds cool, it literally gets into your system, almost like an alcoholic experiences the effects of their disease. I'm using that purely as an analogy though. After you count how much you've spent you're likely to hit the bottle.:alcoholic:
Comfortable pistol grip, good light, RDS, quality BUIS, quality mags, ammunition, and quality training is all you NEED. All of this other whiz bang shit like BAD levers, 45 degree optics mounts, FF rail systems with optional rail install points, etc. is all throwing money down the garbage disposal.
Tzintzuntzan
06-12-13, 23:44
Since when did free float rails become equivalent to setting $300 on fire :confused:
Needs vs wants.
Need: Basic carbine from reputable manufacturer (DD, BCM, Colt, etc) with an FSB and a Magpul MBUS Rear, light, sling, magazines, ammo, and training.
Could be a need/want: RDS optics
Wants: anything else that adds comfort (BCM grip, Stocks), convenience (QD anything), alleged superior manufacture (Billet anything, BAD-ASS), tacti-cool factor (pressure switches), and poor ROI on price (triggers).
NOTE: I'm not marginalizing any of the companies nor their products in the "Wants" section, because I do have some or plan to get some of them in the future. But, they're wants.
Most of my modding has come from realizing I want something different, after using what I had.
It actually took a while for me to realize an ambi safety, and charging handle was something that would benefit me a lot, since I shoot left handed. I simply did not know they existed until I realized I had the "need" for them.
It took a little bit to buy an optic.
People on here influenced me to try a B5 BRAVO stock (just by their pictures and positive reviews of them), now I am hooked. :D
Now I have realized a heavy 12"DD rail does not suit my needs any longer. So I want to replace it. Though, I am going to suck it up for a while, since it will cost 300 or more dollars to replace.
AND AMMO :eek:
Word of advice, sell old gear on the EE here.
Since when did free float rails become equivalent to setting $300 on fire :confused:
Since 12" of 360 degree real estate became available...95% of which never gets used for anything other than acting as a "handguard"
NEEDed? No. TactiCOOL? Yes.
Tzintzuntzan
06-13-13, 02:02
Since 12" of 360 degree real estate became available...95% of which never gets used for anything other than acting as a "handguard"
NEEDed? No. TactiCOOL? Yes.
Odd. I usually find myself thankful to have that on there. Not sure if I'll ever find a more adaptable surface than a quad rail, but to each their own I suppose.
TurretGunner
06-13-13, 06:38
When I buy a complete AR, or even build one from parts; I change the trigger, safety, stock, grip, rail system, buffer and spring, charging handle, BUIS or sight system, and maybe an optic (if I don't stick with iron sights). If you get an optic you have to get a good mount.
They don't just call it Black Rifle Disease because it sounds cool, it literally gets into your system, almost like an alcoholic experiences the effects of their disease. I'm using that purely as an analogy though. After you count how much you've spent you're likely to hit the bottle.:alcoholic:
That is a complete waste of money. You might as well build it from the ground up and get exactly what you want, and it will be cheaper.
TurretGunner
06-13-13, 06:42
After building dozens of AR's and working on countless more over the years..........I find myself getting drawn back to the begining. We took a light, accurate, pointable rifle and turned it into a heavy , cumbersome bitch.
You want a real carbine.......Bring back these with the real moderators:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Colt_XM-177E1.jpg
You either think rails are worth the money or you don't. I'm going from a railed forearm to a smooth one. A centurion cmr to be exact. It will do everything I want it to do. Including the added length..... I need it for my longer ape arms. That's not even including the fact that it free floats the barrel.
Word of advice, sell old gear on the EE here.
Very true, with careful purchases and reselling things that didn't work, you can minimize you cash losses.
But at the same time, as people evolve in the firearms community, buying / using things that don't work for you adds to your knowledge base - often times installing / changing things gives you some technical knowledge of how the firearm works, etc. as well as figuring out what type of equipment works for you.
I very rarely buy weapons at new prices, and because of that can often sell them, after using them, for little to no loss. Same for equipment (usually), I try to buy gently used stuff on the forums to try out, and do the same with stuff that doesn't work for me.
NEEDS: A solid, reliable rifle. Flat top upper receiver. Good furniture that fits the shooter. Proper sights. Reliable, predictable trigger. A configuration that suits the mission. Quality parts that fit right. Acceptable weight. Proper balance. In spec magazines. Reliable ammo. Acceptable accuracy. Sling
WANTS: Muzzle device. Improved trigger. Lighter weight. Improved accuracy
DESIRES: Color, brand name, specific barrel construction and material, exotic finishes, engravings, cosmetic touches, hand indexing
WISHES: KAC
...You want a real carbine.......Bring back these with the real moderators:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Colt_XM-177E1.jpg
Lighter and simpler is better, but the modern carbine has surpassed the old CAR with moderator
This is my first post here and I chose this thread because I've felt what the OP is talking about.
I just picked up my very first AR and I went with the Colt LE6920 Socom. I knew enough to spend the money up front to start with a quality piece. Buying upgrades costs more money down the line. That said, I really have no idea what I'm talking about and I worry that I'll find myself "needing" to replace items or upgrade them to get a good, functional AR.
I've added a simple two point sling and an Eotech XPS2-0 that I got NIB for cheap. I don't think I need anything else although I do hate the trigger. It's hard to walk into my local gun dealer and not feel like a kid in a candy store. I really hate the noob feeling, hence the reason I'm on this site...to learn. Thanks all.
Since 12" of 360 degree real estate became available...95% of which never gets used for anything other than acting as a "handguard"
NEEDed? No. TactiCOOL? Yes.
Your basic assumption is that making a rail smooth significantly reduces costs.
Look at the KAC URX iii/3.1, Geissele Mk4, and Centurion CMR. They're hardly cheaper in price than a top of the line quad rail also from KAC or Centurion.
Yes, you can point to a troy tube and note how cheap it is, but there are also many cheap quad rails too.
So if what you're actually saying is that any upgrade of the hand guard from the plastic ones is a waste of money, I'm going to simply disagree with you because of lesser ability to utilize "better" shooting techniques and essentially no low light capability because of lack of flash light and/or laser. Also, depending on how you actually use the weapon and its role, the plastic hand guards can reduce practical accuracy due to not free floating and no bipod attachment location.
There's a difference between "customizing" your rifle vs optimizing your rifle for your uses.
"Customizing" is usually just for looks and showing off.
Optimizing is going to show in your shooting and how the rifle performs.
I agree with this statement 100% I follow the KISS rule. keep thing light.
Your basic assumption is that making a rail smooth significantly reduces costs.
Look at the KAC URX iii/3.1, Geissele Mk4, and Centurion CMR. They're hardly cheaper in price than a top of the line quad rail also from KAC or Centurion.
Yes, you can point to a troy tube and note how cheap it is, but there are also many cheap quad rails too.
So if what you're actually saying is that any upgrade of the hand guard from the plastic ones is a waste of money, I'm going to simply disagree with you because of lesser ability to utilize "better" shooting techniques and essentially no low light capability because of lack of flash light and/or laser. Also, depending on how you actually use the weapon and its role, the plastic hand guards can reduce practical accuracy due to not free floating and no bipod attachment location.
You have completely misinterpreted my statement. In no way am I thrashing railed forearms or saying "don't buy one, it's a waste of money!" I'm saying that spending $300-400 on an aluminum free floating tube/railed forearm for a 16" or less rifle that will likely never shoot in excess of 300 yds is a waste. Yes, plastic handguards or non free float systems do reduce "potential" accuracy over free float systems at distance, but for most of the shooting that people do with ARs these days (carbine courses/tactical rifle courses, etc.), you are never going to get much of a chance to notice any real benefit.
... for most of the shooting that people do with ARs these days (carbine courses/tactical rifle courses, etc.), you are never going to get much of a chance to notice any real benefit.
+1
ROI on money spent.
You have completely misinterpreted my statement. In no way am I thrashing railed forearms or saying "don't buy one, it's a waste of money!" I'm saying that spending $300-400 on an aluminum free floating tube/railed forearm for a 16" or less rifle that will likely never shoot in excess of 300 yds is a waste. Yes, plastic handguards or non free float systems do reduce "potential" accuracy over free float systems at distance, but for most of the shooting that people do with ARs these days (carbine courses/tactical rifle courses, etc.), you are never going to get much of a chance to notice any real benefit.
How will you attach lights and lasers for the half of the day when it's dark?
I agree that free floating isn't terribly useful unless you're applying lots of sling torque or shooting at distance, but even a carbine length quad rail that isn't free floated has very positive benefits over plastic hand guards.
And if you're going to spend a little on a short rail, might as well spend a little extra for a longer rail for an extended shooting grip and free floating.
And the whole idea that people only "need" rifles for short range work is a huge assumption. I mean all you really "need" is an iron sighted M16 for 5-500m. It's really nice to have a red dot or glass optic. It's also really nice to have a sling and shorter barrel and flash light and laser and extended rail and vfg/handstop and comp/brake, etc.
evilblackrifle
06-13-13, 11:02
How will you attach lights and lasers for the half of the day when it's dark?
MOE handguard
MOE handguard
Could work to save money and save on modifications to your rifle's barrel nut area and FSP. But still doesn't help for distance shooting and more modern shooting stances.
Tzintzuntzan
06-13-13, 11:57
I think I'd rather waste that $300 for an unneccesary and ridiculously heavy handguard than try to extend my support hand on a MOE. Especially considering how I can then mount all that "useless and unneeded junk" like IR, laser, "kitchen sink, beer cup holder".
Believe me, there is a difference between what serious shooters do & what YouTube commandos do.
This, and to elaborate - serious shooters and hobby shooters.
I would say serious shooters, i.e.: LE/MIL/Private security, get what their dept allows and their home weapons may resemble how their work weapons function. Serious shooters also spend their money on ammo and training and not gizmos.
Hobby shooter: sky's the limit on spending, though most often the YouTube/mall ninjas spend 90% on superfluous gear and not training and ammo.
p.s. broke mofos like me spend what we can on the essentials - ammo and range time, though when we save our lunch money we can buy extra doo-dads and mags.
How will you attach lights and lasers for the half of the day when it's dark?
There is always a way
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_A.jpg
I agree that free floating isn't terribly useful unless you're applying lots of sling torque or shooting at distance...
Yes and no. Placing your forearm on some type of rest will result in a change to the point of impact, with or without a tight sling. Folks who have been in combat also talk about placing lots of pressure on their handguards during the heat of battle and using a VFG can increase the leverage of that pressure. If the shooter can afford a FF tube, it's good to have. But regular handguards will work as long as the shooter is aware of their shortcomings
even a carbine length quad rail that isn't free floated has very positive benefits over plastic hand guards.
I disagree. I need very little rail estate- if any- to attach what I need to my rifle and I don't like how quads feel. Without the benefit of being free floated, there is no reason for a quad
And if you're going to spend a little on a short rail, might as well spend a little extra for a longer rail for an extended shooting grip and free floating.
Agreed
And the whole idea that people only "need" rifles for short range work is a huge assumption. I mean all you really "need" is an iron sighted M16 for 5-500m. It's really nice to have a red dot or glass optic. It's also really nice to have a sling and shorter barrel and flash light and laser and extended rail and vfg/handstop and comp/brake, etc.
If lights, lasers, slings & handstops aren't needed, neither are rails
I disagree. I need very little rail estate- if any- to attach what I need to my rifle and I don't like how quads feel. Without the benefit of being free floated, there is no reason for a quad
For you, maybe. But the ability to mount a light and laser is still very important for many people (such as, for example, nearly everyone issued an M4... yes I know SOPMOD changes things up with a RIS II, but most people who carry an M4 aren't special operations) even without an extended rail. Now those people usually can't modify their weapons very much, but many people coming home set up their weapons the same way as their duty weapons.
If lights, lasers, slings & handstops aren't needed, neither are rails
Essentially what you're saying is if you have nothing to put on a rail, you don't need a rail. It's hard to argue with that :p
For you, maybe. But the ability to mount a light and laser is still very important for many people (such as, for example, nearly everyone issued an M4... yes I know SOPMOD changes things up with a RIS II, but most people who carry an M4 aren't special operations) even without an extended rail.
Essentially what you're saying is if you have nothing to put on a rail, you don't need a rail. It's hard to argue with that :p
It's all just another round of the same old task of picking the right tool for the job based on the requirements. If my job is unbolting something, then my requirements call for a wrench and not a hammer.
In a general sense, the requirements for a rifle are the same across the board, reliability, durability etc etc. In a detailed sense, the requirements for a soldier won't be the same as those for a police officer on patrol which won't be the same for me defending my home.
The guys on the sharp tip of the spear have requirements for a whole lot more stuff to make their lives easier than someone like me does. :)
"then my requirements call for a wrench and not a hammer"
Unless the fastener is real tight an the wrench could be beat with a hammer! The perfect example is the lights I have on my rifle and shotgun... A few months ago you couldn't convince me I needed weapon lights.. I convinced myself it is better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them. GH
Somehow this conversation has some really good points in it!
A free float rail has more benefits than real-estate.
All that goes on mine is a Surefire x300.
I had a 12" rail on mine. A 14" is going on it. I benefit from a thumb over grip further out on my rail. Something my MOE handguard lacked, as my hand would always find the FSB. The FSB just happens to get a little warm. :eek:
We can discuss this until we are blue in the face, everyone is different in their shooting and will benefit from different setups on their rifle. However I do agree some members can take quite a bit away from this discussion.
crosseyedshooter
06-13-13, 18:07
I gotta say I really like the feel of the MOE hand guards. A dissipator type setup with MOE hand guards would be pretty nice.
ennbeegunny15
06-13-13, 19:42
I have had rails and I prefer the moe handguard. I can shoot with my arm extended w/o any issues. I run a light on it and its all I need. Oh btw, a sling a red dot a good buis and a mil spec trigger works for me.
DiabhailGadhar
06-13-13, 19:56
I don't really "customize" my rifle although I do have to buy extra's due to me being a lefty..However I'm not opposed to enveloping new technology..I'm comfortable with an M16A4 but its not set up ambi..so on my personal rifle I add things that make me more efficient with the weapon system and sometimes those things advance or change..
Prime example would be BCM's ambi charging handle. I had a badger ordnance and sold it to get a less expensive BCM. The only reason it didn't totally cover the expense is I sold it to a friend. I don't think the majority of us consider it customizing so much as adapting to what gives us ,in our own minds, the edge. But hell yes it's expensive...lol. What til you buy a scar 17....ask me how I know..;)
While not new to guns and shooting, I am fairly new to the AR platform and can certainly see why people like them. I have a Colt M4 since Dec '12 and it came with some Magpul goodies on it already. I easily see why some can get carried away with it but I have as an alternative to the SKS I still have for HD. OK, I enjoy shooting it when I can get ammo at a decent price and have the time. At this point the modification I would be making would be a red dot.
And the whole idea that people only "need" rifles for short range work is a huge assumption. I mean all you really "need" is an iron sighted M16 for 5-500m. It's really nice to have a red dot or glass optic. It's also really nice to have a sling and shorter barrel and flash light and laser and extended rail and vfg/handstop and comp/brake, etc.
It's all just a NEED vs NICE TO HAVE discussion :happy:
I'll bet that most members of this community (other than MIL and LE) don't really NEED any of these NICE TO HAVE items as their rifles hardly ever see the light side of the safe door.
I think that it depends a lot on what/how you buy.
I think the biggest evolution points are that optics that work well with AR's are now at a reasonable price, and are so good that the force multiplication is hard to ignore - an Aimpoint PRO or pricier is so much better for night shooting over using irons that it's a no-brainer; and lower zoom optics for target identification are the same way easy to think of as integral.
Weaponlights are the next one - I'm certainly not that old, but I remember when the 50lumen Surefire 6P's started to become a little bit common - now $100 buys you a solid weaponlight with good switching... twice that puts you into top end weaponlight kits. Again, the expanded capability is really hard to ignore.
It's the same reasoning of what incremental improvements have been made from the XM-177 days - flat top upper opened up optics, modular handguards introduced lights, lasers, and some control accessories... it may not be a need, but nice-to-have items that add versatility can quickly become thought of as must-have if the cost/benefit curve is really beneficial.
It's all just a NEED vs NICE TO HAVE discussion :happy:
I'll bet that most members of this community (other than MIL and LE) don't really NEED any of these NICE TO HAVE items as their rifles hardly ever see the light side of the safe door.
Are you speaking from your rifles experience? My Colt easily pumps out 1000+ rounds a month...and I'm sure many others here do too!
Watch it now. Talk like that is liable to start a riot:D
It's all just a NEED vs NICE TO HAVE discussion :happy:
I'll bet that most members of this community (other than MIL and LE) don't really NEED any of these NICE TO HAVE items as their rifles hardly ever see the light side of the safe door.
I have had rails and I prefer the moe handguard. I can shoot with my arm extended w/o any issues. I run a light on it and its all I need. Oh btw, a sling a red dot a good buis and a mil spec trigger works for me.
I agree. With a MOE handguard, you can still mount mission essentials on your carbine
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0045_zps3c73f4ff.jpg
Members of the staff, who see more of the site's traffic than the general membership, would vigorously argue that tpevan's assertion would be difficult to make stick.
To put it to words, most of our membership thinks of 2k rounds/yr/gun as "cute," or might be as generous as to describe that as "a nice start." And, I'm talking about those rounds being used an a manner that isn't simply ballistic masturbation.
The "own nothing but cosmetic/colletion-purpose guns" crowd find their own way out, or get bum-rushed out the door once they get mad that not everybody is a symbolism>substance, shallow, Tokyo-drifting 'mo. An M4C collector is practically guaranteed to also be a user who just so happens to have a "collection" collection.
There's an equilibrium that seems to be reached, where an individual (regardless of their affiliation or lack thereof) has gone through their "developmental" phase, tried a bunch of stuff, wrung it out (i.e., USED it...), kept what worked, discarded what did not, and ends up with their sustainment costs being AMMO instead of STUFF. It's not a universal, but it's very common.
A corollary, however, IS that most of the folks that buy components and swap them out at a frenetic pace tend to not shoot a lot, and seem to have a love affair with mistaking motion for progress. Doing that burns money, whether the stuff being bought is of quality manufacture or not. Framed in those terms, it fits what he's getting at much better, presuming he's using "community" to refer to the forum membership.
If he's referring to AR owners in Amercia, as a whole....he'd be right, and anybody that disagrees with is exactly that kind of AR owner, or new to the game, or is really not paying attention.
I agree. With a MOE handguard, you can still mount mission essentials on your carbine
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0045_zps3c73f4ff.jpg
I've always wondered with that light mount, doesn't your fsb get pretty hot? Doesn't that make hitting the light a burn hazard?
MOE handguard
There are plenty of ways to mount a light (or laser or even VFG) on a rifle with the issue handguard. The MOE just gives a cleaner and more integrated approach, and some people prefer the feel.
Lot's of great options here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30266)
This is the way I rolled for a long time
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/permanent/BMlight1.jpg
I've always wondered with that light mount, doesn't your fsb get pretty hot? Doesn't that make hitting the light a burn hazard?
Yes, the FSB does get hot. One afternoon, I deliberately shot several hundred rounds to see how hot the carbine would get. Not mag dumps though- actual shooting. It wasn't formal training with drills and timers but I did want to see how the carbine handled and made impromptu "drills" using what we found at the shooting area
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0012-1.jpg
The FSB got so hot, any water hitting would flash into steam
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0253.jpg
But as you can see, the light (and the mount) remained cool. The light didn't warm up at all. If I'd touched the FSB while hitting the light switch, yes it would have been quite uncomfortable. But ask yourself- Do you turn the light on after you shoot the badguy? Or before? Like everything else, it's not a perfect solution and the shooter has to be aware of the mount's shortcomings. But the simplicity of the setup, 12 o'clock location and ease of use from either side of the weapon make the Mossie Midnight Mount the best available choice for me. I know what I'd like better, but no one makes that and I'm not sure the configuration would be durable enough for hard use.
Another interesting observation was the temperature of the BCG. The carrier was barely warm enough to detect by touch. The gas key was warm enough to be uncomfortable but cooled quickly. Bolt was warmer than the carrier. This was while the FSB was hot enough to turn water into steam
But ask yourself- Do you turn the light on after you shoot the badguy? Or before?
Assuming a single bad guy... Both.
That's also assuming you know there's only a single bad guy.
I'm going to say a scope/rds+magnifier might be a NEED.
Depending on age, vision, etc. one might find it hard to use the irons at a distance, or see beyond X-amount of feet/yards.
For me personally, a 1-4x scope was a need, as well was a new stock & grip.
Assuming a single bad guy... Both.
That's also assuming you know there's only a single bad guy.
Which, of course, is an assumption that can get you killed. You're right that the light will need to be operated before and after. Even with the FSB hot, the light is easy to operate without getting burned.
Fighting off hordes of BSMiD (Bearded Smelly Men in Dresses) will get the FSB burning hot quick. If I ever find myself in that situation, barring some miracle, I'm a dead man because I'm a silly-villian operating without squadmates to keep my ass alive!
HackerF15E
06-14-13, 09:35
their sustainment costs being AMMO instead of STUFF.
Personally, I think this is the actual separation between the serious shooters and everyone else.
For many folks it is, as you say, an evolution to get to that point. For others, who aren't necessarily "gun enthusuasts" but who are professionals who just happen to use that tool in accomplishment of their duties, they may be at that point from square one.
My Larue Stealth is setup as a SPR - Yes it is expensive:
ASAP Ambidextrous Sling Attachment Point Magpul 38.94
MS2 Multi-Mission Sling Magpul 58.94
LaRue Tactical 1.25 Inch Swivel Larue 24.95
Bi-pod Type 3- BLAC Bobro 239.00
Schmidt & Bender 1.5 - 6x42 Rifle Scope Ebay 850.00
LaRue Tactical SPR / M4 Scope Mount QD LT-104 Larue 199.98
Magpul XT Rail Covers Larue 64.98
Magpul MBUS Bravo Company 100.95
JP Enterprises AR-15 Reduced Power Spring Kit JP Enterprises 18.89
Magpul AFG - Angled ForeGrip Black Weapons Armory 50.67
Magpul BAD - Battery Assist Device Magpul 29.95
So $1600 later and I think I am done :)
My ARs cost nothing to own. They don't eat much, don't take up much room, and I don't have to pay property tax on them or anything like that.
They don't demand new shoes, dresses, nighties, and nights own the town like the old lady.
The real cost of owning an AR is ammo. 8 lb jug of H335 is about $150 delivered, 5k primers is about $120, and 55 gr FMJs is about $0.12 ea. Cheaper than buying ammo, and it gives me something to do while the old lady watches stupid TV shows.
Gas rings, extractors, firing pins, etc are all pretty cheap by comparison.
So what about this evolving cost of ownership?
You've all provided a world of great information that's quite helpful with my decision in what to buy or not...
Without creating a new thread, I wonder what percentage of you are "gear heads" (for want of a better descriptor) so modifying your AR's is fun for you?
Me, I have almost zero aptitude with small tools. I'm great with an ax, shovel, bow saw, sledge hammer, post hole diggers...you know, brute force tools, but when it comes to working with tools small enough to modify a rifle, fugettaboudit!
The truth is, I've almost zero mechanical skills. Hell, around the house my wife does anything requiring mechanical skills, while I stand by, doing the pee-pee dance, breathlessly asking "is it fixed yet" with a worried look on my face. "She, who must be obeyed" will then tell me to go outside, smoke a cigar, and when it's fixed she'll let me know.
If I do it and it can be installed backwards or upside down, well you can guess the rest...and I may have a number of parts left over when the parts manual assures me I'll need to use them all.
And yes, I've heard the famous line: "Anyone can do it!"
I'm living proof that aint so!
And no, I won't be asking her to do my mods.
What I've primarily learned from this thread that most applies to me: Try out a bunch of different models of quality AR's and pick the one that fits me best. I'll have someone competent (gunsmith) mount the scope or whatever if that need arises, though I'll probably be happy with what I finally choose with little need to tweak.
I hope...
Frankly, you're going to have to learn.
You're going to wear out gas rings. You're going to wear out springs. You're going to break things.
Installing a scope or BUIS does not warrant a trip to the gunsmith either.
If you intend to master things like trigger control, you're certainly capable of using a screw driver and wrench.
Learn to maintain your gear and use your gear before you go bolting shit to quad rails. You'll come out ahead in the end.
You've all provided a world of great information that's quite helpful with my decision in what to buy or not...
Without creating a new thread, I wonder what percentage of you are "gear heads" (for want of a better descriptor) so modifying your AR's is fun for you?
Me, I have almost zero aptitude with small tools. I'm great with an ax, shovel, bow saw, sledge hammer, post hole diggers...you know, brute force tools, but when it comes to working with tools small enough to modify a rifle, fugettaboudit!
The truth is, I've almost zero mechanical skills. Hell, around the house my wife does anything requiring mechanical skills, while I stand by, doing the pee-pee dance, breathlessly asking "is it fixed yet" with a worried look on my face. "She, who must be obeyed" will then tell me to go outside, smoke a cigar, and when it's fixed she'll let me know.
If I do it and it can be installed backwards or upside down, well you can guess the rest...and I may have a number of parts left over when the parts manual assures me I'll need to use them all.
And yes, I've heard the famous line: "Anyone can do it!"
I'm living proof that aint so!
And no, I won't be asking her to do my mods.
What I've primarily learned from this thread that most applies to me: Try out a bunch of different models of quality AR's and pick the one that fits me best. I'll have someone competent (gunsmith) mount the scope or whatever if that need arises, though I'll probably be happy with what I finally choose with little need to tweak.
I hope...
You might want to retake 8 grade shop class over and pay attention to detail IMHO...
Look, I'm gonna level with you. Magpul is a gateway upgrade, it starts with a handguard, maybe a BAD lever. Next thing you know, your visiting Larue while your up late at night, Giessele packages showing up at your door and suddenly your posting YouTube vids and pics of your mods. You'll call them "reviews" but really they're just cries for help.
Eventually, you'll need an intervention to realize that mods aren't the answer. Ammo is. And you'll discard about $800 of stuff to mall ninjas on Craigslist.
Maybe we should do a scared straight video for needless AR mods for new owners?
Btw- not saying anything bad about the brands above, they are all top notch. Lights, sights and slings! Anything else is personal preference.
crosseyedshooter
06-14-13, 13:32
Installing a scope or BUIS does not warrant a trip to the gunsmith either.
Unless you're this guy:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/601354_432719086809404_837198794_n.jpg
I dunno, maybe that's why he has his BUIS deployed. Probably didn't trust the armorer.
Am I to understand that AR's don't hold up as well as say my Glock 19?
I've put thousands of rounds downrange with zero need to change, replace or repair anything. Feed it ammo and it just keeps working and working and working...
On another note: You can't force an aptitude you don't have. I remember 8th grade shop and I was the worst student of all of us, though the teacher was kind and didn't hold up my project for the ridicule it so richly deserved.
I do realize those with mechanical aptitude finding anyone without such as difficult as a fish trying to imagine fire, but there it is...
As for trigger control, I have that, even with crappy triggers. As a younger guy, I was a great shot and now merely a good utility shooter, but still adequate enough to get the job done with either pistol or rifle.
Insisting rifle owners all essentially be amateur gunsmiths is rather like insisting one has to be an auto mechanic if one drives/owns a vehicle.
Am I arguing for my own incompetence? Ah, yeah, I am... What did one of Clint Eastwood's characters say in one of his movies: "A man's gotta know his limitations" - and I know mine.
Hell, I can drive a nail, but don't ask me to remove a roll pin with a spring behind it or do anything requiring small tool motor skills. Ask me to fell a tree and I'm your guy. I even enjoy that kind of work!
crosseyedshooter
06-14-13, 13:39
But, but...I NEED my tactical bottle opener!
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-89887447921587_2267_103608154
Look, I'm gonna level with you. Magpul is a gateway upgrade, it starts with a handguard, maybe a BAD lever. Next thing you know, your visiting Larue while your up late at night, Giessele packages showing up at your door and suddenly your posting YouTube vids and pics of your mods. You'll call them "reviews" but really they're just cries for help.
Eventually, you'll need an intervention to realize that mods aren't the answer. Ammo is. And you'll discard about $800 of stuff to mall ninjas on Craigslist.
Maybe we should do a scared straight video for needless AR mods for new owners?
Btw- not saying anything bad about the brands above, they are all top notch. Lights, sights and slings! Anything else is personal preference.
Look, I'm gonna level with you. Magpul is a gateway upgrade, it starts with a handguard, maybe a BAD lever. Next thing you know, your visiting Larue while your up late at night, Giessele packages showing up at your door and suddenly your posting YouTube vids and pics of your mods. You'll call them "reviews" but really they're just cries for help.
Lol, I'm loving this!
Am I to understand that AR's don't hold up as well as say my Glock 19?
I've put thousands of rounds downrange with zero need to change, replace or repair anything. Feed it ammo and it just keeps working and working and working...
------------
Insisting rifle owners all essentially be amateur gunsmiths is rather like insisting one has to be an auto mechanic if one drives/owns a vehicle.
A basic AR that's properly built with quality parts will hold up well against your Glock example. Just a squirt of CLP on the bolt and BCG every 2000 round and it'll easily run for 10k rounds.
Much like cars, firearms have maintenance parts requiring replacement every so many thousand rounds. If you don't have the aptitude to replace them, take it to a gun-smith and pay extra for the labor.
You don't have to become a gun-smith, but if you plan to depend your life on a firearm, knowing how to maintain and inspect your tool would be a good thing. I think this would hold true for any drivers who depend on their cars to keep them alive.
Sidia
We agree completely.
I'm a big fan of maintenance, cuz it's (whatever it may be) less likely to break, fall apart or just plain not work well without regular maintenance.
I make certain to either have an expert take care of it and pay the piper, as in my vehicles. Or, when it comes to firearms, those're the one thing I do take care of myself.
Now, I gotta go chop out a Camphor tree stump. Had to cut it down as it was threatening my fence. I had to have a fence installed as my yard was regularly being plowed up by feral pigs.
Oh, the two I've killed were taken with head shots in my back yard shooting from my back porch. Shot them with a .17 cal HMR Savage bolt gun. Both DRT. One shot a piece. For them, I use FMJ's for better bone penetration. They're mmmhh, mmmmh good eatin...but, I digress.
Oh, the two I've killed were taken with head shots in my back yard shooting from my back porch. Shot them with a .17 cal HMR Savage bolt gun. Both DRT. One shot a piece. For them, I use FMJ's for better bone penetration. They're mmmhh, mmmmh good eatin...but, I digress.
Impressive! :)
OP, the only cost of owning a quality ar is ammo. My bro is like your worried about... he shoots 3x a year, and changes shit 10x a year.
Get a solid gun (bcm.colt, blahblah...) and shoot it and get good. When you find that hardware mods will improve your shooting, go for it. Stocks would be the last thing id change, and the thing I see people go through the most.
MegademiC,
Thanks!
I appreciate the advice.
That's what I ultimately plan to do.
Plus, I want to keep it light. Once I buy my AR, I'm going to start off with no mods. Unless, a mod means lighter and if so, that I'll consider, later...
I'd hate to start with something fat-free and end with something weighing in more than my old M-14. Which was a great gun, but it's weight was like an albatross around my neck.
I see a lot of folks hang lights on their AR's and wonder how often they practice at night using a light?
A lot?
Ever?
A light is actually something id would highly suggest if you plan on using it for HD... if not - forget about it (just my opinion). They can be cheap and light.
I tapcoed the crap outta my ak, and now its back to stock, probably wasted a couple hundred $ all together.
For the ar, I wised up a little (i think) and kept it stock other than a different pistol grip... I then built the following rifle, "mods" would be the rail(better control and benefits of FF but still light and when you factor in the front sight, its one of the cheapest), RDS (primary arms to see how i like it and) which is gonna be replaced by a quality 1-4x to be used for everything including coyote and hog hunting, sling, and light since it would be used for defense inside the home and training.
Point is, there is lot of ways to rice up a civic, but you dont have to spend a bunch of money ricing out your car just because its a civic.
Hope this helps and makes some sense.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh63/vinnyraf870/IMG_7052_zps645f1ba7.jpg (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/vinnyraf870/media/IMG_7052_zps645f1ba7.jpg.html)
Littlelebowski
06-15-13, 16:59
Am I to understand that AR's don't hold up as well as say my Glock 19?
I have 2 ARs that are just as reliable as my older Gen3 G19. That's with using steel cased, Russian ammo in all three and not cleaning very much.
ennbeegunny15
06-16-13, 08:51
OP, the only cost of owning a quality ar is ammo. My bro is like your worried about... he shoots 3x a year, and changes shit 10x a year.
Get a solid gun (bcm.colt, blahblah...) and shoot it and get good. When you find that hardware mods will improve your shooting, go for it. Stocks would be the last thing id change, and the thing I see people go through the most.
Sounds like my brother...lol he ninja'd out his sig400 and all I could do is smh.
A light is very practical on a carbine. Practice is good, but it's having it on there when you need it that would matter the most. If you ever plan to use it as a defensive weapon, you'd better have one on there.
I see a lot of folks hang lights on their AR's and wonder how often they practice at night using a light?
A lot?
Ever?
I bought my first AR in 1973, I have owned and sold 4 Colts and 4 BCMs . My friends always seem to want to buy them and during weak emotional moments I sell/ trade them" They have all been 100% stock.
Learned before I started my first build. All of my AR's are build from scratch.. no 'stock' about em.. and nope, they are never done either... :lol:
Customizing an AR is like modding a car. It's a statement of individuality and to some it is a hobby.
Just remembered this thread.
My Colt LE6920 had a dreadful trigger so I installed (ah, someone else actually installed it) a Geissle Super Semi-Automatic (Enhanced).
What a tremendous difference!
My neighbor and I were shooting in my back yard (I live in the country) and I asked if he cared to shoot my Colt with the new trigger. He became an instant believer.
This is a 2 stage trigger and for bulls eye shooting it's the best.
I think very few people leave their AR's stock, especially after some time. The closest thing I've got to a stock AR is a colt 6920. The only addition is an aimpoint pro in a larue mount. My Larue predatAR is stock except for index clips, 1-6 swfa optic, larue mount and larue sling attach points. My daniel defense v5 is rigged out for HD with everything you'd expect.
I always try to keep it simple and upgrade as needed. Don't fix what ain't broke. ;)
I kept mine stock so far for about a year. After shooting a few thousand rounds through it and trying various friends AR's, I've made a few changes that I've found work better for me.
(B5 Bravo stock - more comfortable than MOE, BAD ST lever - left hand shooter, umbrella corp grip - wrist problems, and an aimpoint pro - because I can).
I bought my first AR in the early 90's a week before the ban. Figured I'd get it while I could. Colt Match HBAR. It was like the rifle I had when I was in the Army, Only the barrel was big all of the way down and the handle came off. (Figured out later, damn near 20 years, about the shelf and the bullshit that's sticking up). Damn thing is like a laser beam. Only problem was with some reloads I made stovepiping. (Re-Note to self, don't use reloads in these guns)
Flash forward to 2009. Left CA, went to Texas. I don't remember how it happened, but I ended up here. Decided to build a rifle. An A2 with a rail. Billet lower, Noveske Barrel, Giessle SSA, pretty bitchen rifle. Built another one, MOE kinda gun, Noveske/BCM/Geissle, kinda rifle. Building one now, it's gonna be a Jack carbine clone, only better.
Learned some stuff along the way. Stuff I don't need is Bad levers, AFG's, Billet lowers, ect, ect.......
I'm an old low speed high drag dude. I don't think I could complete a carbine course without serious knee-back pain and being "That Guy".
I am a hobbyist, I don't think I'm a wannbe. I was in, and met the "Be's", I know who they are, and I'm not it.
I like building rifles. The Wife seems to be cool with one a year. So I will build the most awesome rifle evaaaahhh once a year.
Keep it coming, I'll try it after seeing M4C. Thanks IG-Grant-ect, I'm having a good time.
The vast majority of AR owners leave it 100% stock because it'll sit in the closet for years between single magazine dumps. Others will end up on Tapco and CAA mailing lists, and the itch will be irresistible. Then a few, who actually shoot their rifles with some degree of seriousness in training, will subtract everything that's not needed, add only what's needed. Even for a lot of these guys, this STILL means leaving the rifle totally stock.
So upgrades are absolutely not necessarily necessary. If you're standing up, you need a reason to sit down. If you're sitting, you need a reason to stand. Right? In the absence of a good reason to change, do not change.
Boba Fett v2
08-26-13, 11:48
When I buy a complete AR, or even build one from parts; I change the trigger, safety, stock, grip, rail system, buffer and spring, charging handle, BUIS or sight system, and maybe an optic
I guess my question would be why not buy a complete AR with all the upgrades in the first place, or just build up from a stripped lower? After you've spent the money adding all upgrades it'll come out to about the same amount you would've spent on a rifle with most of the stuff you want on/in it. When I got my SR-15 I knew there would be very few modifications done to the rifle because it was pretty much good to go straight out of the box. The stock A2 grip had to go as well as replacing the bird cage with a suppressor mount. Added a LPV optic and 45 degree off-sets, which are pretty much all I wanted to effectively employ the carbine. I consider slings, rail covers, sling mounts, scope covers, etc. luxury accessories that are nice to have but do little to nothing to enhance the performance of the rifle.
I guess my question would be why not buy a complete AR with all the upgrades in the first place, or just build up from a stripped lower? After you've spent the money adding all upgrades it'll come out to about the same amount you would've spent on a rifle with most of the stuff you want on/in it. When I got my SR-15 I knew there would be very few modifications done to the rifle because it was pretty much good to go straight out of the box. The stock A2 grip had to go as well as replacing the bird cage with a suppressor mount. Added a LPV optic and 45 degree off-sets, which are pretty much all I wanted to effectively employ the carbine. I consider slings, rail covers, sling mounts, scope covers, etc. luxury accessories that are nice to have but do little to nothing to enhance the performance of the rifle.
For some folks its easier to spend $1200 then upgrade as they go many times selling take off parts to cover part of the cost of the upgrades. Then there's those who need to try a few different things to figure out what works for them. I've got several AR's with $2k+ in them which was spent over time rather than as a lump sum. I happen to like the SR15 configuration but don't have the dough to drop $2k+ all at once.
I currently have four and a half ARs in the stable and have owned more. The majority of my rifles I already build a certain way and have a certain setup. I could by a rifle and leave it pretty much intact if it came the way I want it. Luckly for me the way I want it is pretty much factory choices.
Do I customize my rifles? Yes, I do but I don't go crazy by dropping serious coin because the majority of my changes are simple accessories and not major overhuals. Only one rifle is a major rework and that is my SBR. Everything else is a build I did out of quality parts on the same style and layout.
I don't buy rifles whole mostly because I can build what I want what the factory would offer anyways for a cheaper price. I try to keep my costs down and that by already going through the what works.what doesn't stage a long time ago. Sure, some of my style might be outdtated a little but I'll stick with it. I ike it and it works for me for the majority of what I want.
FloridaWoodsman
08-27-13, 03:47
The reason I went with an AR was because of the custom options. Since I assembled my own from parts, though, there was nothing cast aside and it wasn't particularly expensive. The only thing I changed my mind about was a front vertical grip, but that's the sort of thing you just have to try to see if it works for you or not.
Boba Fett v2
08-27-13, 09:24
For some folks its easier to spend $1200 then upgrade as they go many times selling take off parts to cover part of the cost of the upgrades. Then there's those who need to try a few different things to figure out what works for them. I've got several AR's with $2k+ in them which was spent over time rather than as a lump sum. I happen to like the SR15 configuration but don't have the dough to drop $2k+ all at once.
That's why I suggested buying a stripped lower and building up from there. I get that some people just don't have the disposable income to drop $1500+ all at once for a quality AR with "upgrades" pre-installed. But why spend the money on a complete AR you plan to strip of the stock components off of anyway? And if we're talking stock A2 type components (trigger, pistol grip, flash hider, handguards, buttstock, etc), you're not going to make much money to off-set the cost for the replacement parts. Just buy the components you want seperately and spread it out for however long your budget allows. More economical, makes more sense and it's less shit to deal with. Now if a person is new to ARs I can understand buying a low cost basic carbine. From there they may decide that they want to upgrade and that's okay. But if you're a habitual cheap AR buyer and the first thing you do when you bring the rifle home is strip off all the stock components and upgrade, well then I think it makes more sense to just build from scratch in the first place. To each his own.
EDIT: I should add that I did install a Raptor CH in the SR-15 to make it a more complete ambi carbine.
That's why I suggested buying a stripped lower and building up from there. I get that some people just don't have the disposable income to drop $1500+ all at once for a quality AR with "upgrades" pre-installed. But why spend the money on a complete AR you plan to strip of the stock components off of anyway? And if we're talking stock A2 type components (trigger, pistol grip, flash hider, handguards, buttstock, etc), you're not going to make much money to off-set the cost for the replacement parts. Just buy the components you want seperately and spread it out for however long your budget allows. More economical, makes more sense and it's less shit to deal with. Now if a person is new to ARs I can understand buying a low cost basic carbine. From there they may decide that they want to upgrade and that's okay. But if you're a habitual cheap AR buyer and the first thing you do when you bring the rifle home is strip off all the stock components and upgrade, well then I think it makes more sense to just build from scratch in the first place. To each his own.
EDIT: I should add that I did install a Raptor CH in the SR-15 to make it a more complete ambi carbine.
Yeah I wasnt disagreeing with you on building up from scratch. I actually prefer to build my own and have been for quite some time now. But I do recognize that some folks simply don't have the mechanical aptitude to do that.
Boba Fett v2
08-27-13, 09:37
Yeah I wasnt disagreeing with you on building up from scratch. I actually prefer to build my own and have been for quite some time now. But I do recognize that some folks simply don't have the mechanical aptitude to do that.
Or lack of sense, as evidenced in this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=137444).
LOL, I was trying to say that in a nice way
Only thing I usually add would be an optic, muzzlebrake,longer handguard if the rifle doesn't come with it and a single point sling attachment. I leave pretty much everything else alone that would affect the rifles reliability
Or lack of sense, as evidenced in this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=137444).
Another fine case of someone having more money then sense.
evoutfitters
08-27-13, 11:03
Interesting discussion...
IMHO there has to be a fairly significant investment made in tools and knowledge before you start dismantling then rebuilding an AR. We're not talking thousands of dollars, but certainly hundreds, to baseline a tool set that minimizes your chances of bending, breaking, or bleeding. So you'd want to factor that cost into any equation for build vs buy (especially if you're plan is to have just one or two guns, vs a continuous stream of them).
And the knowledge ranges from simple stuff like disassembling your BCG for cleaning (all the way down to removing the extractor, etc) to more in-depth esoterica like gas port sizing vs gas system, buffer weights, torque values, spring specs, and on and on.
Without the tools and knowledge, you're basically building a rifle that may look OK, but has a higher chance of failing at the exact wrong time. And we won't even go into the troubleshooting cycle that may start and cost even more $$, with little manufacturer support on which to lean.
Surely preaching to the choir here, but it all goes to the point of this thread.
ARs are the easiest rifles to build and maintain on the market, I don't see how anyone could mess it up. Then again I spent a decade as a helicopter mechanic so my abilities and understanding might be a little higher than someone who flipped burgers or went to college.
TacticalSledgehammer
08-27-13, 20:15
I slap a moe+ grip on to any AR I own. On my latest (dd m4v5) it's only getting the moe + and an Aimpoint h-1 micro. Maybe magpul sights or something better. I don't put lasers or zombie chainsaws on my rifles.
I changed the trigger guard on mine. The only other change I will do is add an aimpoint pro in the future and that will be it. (i think)
The evolving cost for my rifles is normally just magazines and good ammo.
For my recent Colt6920 I've only bought 3 Pmag40's, a Magpul sling, and ammo. A red dot is probably the only other thing I'll add.
I don't see how anyone would want to keep the stock pistol grip. That pointy hump is annoying, at least to me. Can you learn to live with it? Sure. I'm just glad I don't have to.
I also find I have more confidence/speed in my cheek weld with a STR stock vs. OEM. Again, could I train around it? Sure, in time. It is really nice to have a solution you are comfortable with from the get go though.
Boba Fett v2
08-28-13, 07:20
I don't see how anyone would want to keep the stock pistol grip. That pointy hump is annoying, at least to me.
I changed out my MIAD front insert sans hump and I will say that it does feel much nicer and it is now my preferred configuration. I guess I never really paid attention to it since I've been shooting the stock grips on my issue carbines my entire career. Just felt normal.
I don't see how anyone would want to keep the stock pistol grip. That pointy hump is annoying, at least to me. Can you learn to live with it? Sure. I'm just glad I don't have to.
I also find I have more confidence/speed in my cheek weld with a STR stock vs. OEM. Again, could I train around it? Sure, in time. It is really nice to have a solution you are comfortable with from the get go though.
Count me as one of those weird freaks out there. I find the standard A2 comfy but the A1 is the cat's meow. I have A2s on most of mine until I find more A1s at a cheap price.
The_War_Wagon
08-28-13, 07:34
What percentage of AR rifle buyers (not builders) would you guess simply leave the rifle stock?
On THIS website? 5% And that's probably because they already have at least one OTHER rifle outfitted to taste.
AR ownership is a big boy endeavor, and not for the faint of wallet..
midSCarolina
08-28-13, 08:40
On THIS website? 5% And that's probably because they already have at least one OTHER rifle outfitted to taste.
AR ownership is a big boy endeavor, and not for the faint of wallet..
I really have trouble leaving a rifle stock... next one i get i am going to honestly try to leave it in the stock config with the carry handle but there are so many after market products that really do improve the rifle's capabilities (triggers, optics, ect) that it is hard to want to at least try some of the new stuff that is always coming out. Ammo is so damn expensive now for 5.56 that i have really been running my SGL31-61 (545) almost exclusively. $550 for 1k of 556 vs $570 for 3k of 545.
Also my AR builds typically run 4-6k while my AK builds run about 2k (or less since AKs are much easier to leave in the stock config). I have really started using my ARs when i want to shoot 400m+ and I usually use my AKs at the 200m range.
Is that 4-6k figure with 2-4k glass???
Tooth & Nail
08-28-13, 09:53
What percentage of AR rifle buyers (not builders) would you guess simply leave the rifle stock?.... the more I read about AR's, the more I think the cost of ownership is going to skyrocket.... If this is the case, perhaps I ought to pass as I'm likely to get addicted to customizing as the next guy...
I would guess a significant number of AR owners leave them stock. Many of these people may add some type of optic, but this is common across many platforms. I would suggest that the statistics aren't important here, what matters is what you will do. Reading your initial post it sounds like there is a significant chance you will customize an AR if you purchase one. You already have one foot on the slippery slope; you are aware of the options and already considering them.... I'd go for it. Unlike money spent on many other hobbies, carefully selected firearms and accessories hold their value pretty well. Just ask my wife, she'll tell you! :D
On THIS website? 5% And that's probably because they already have at least one OTHER rifle outfitted to taste.
AR ownership is a big boy endeavor, and not for the faint of wallet..
Seems like most modifications come about because of the multiple "what if" discussions on various boards that deal with scenarios that might apply to 5% of shooters or have a 5% chance of happening to any given civilian shooter. These discussions tend to be the most fun, most contentious, and most expensive.
Seems like most modifications come about because of the multiple "what if" discussions on various boards that deal with scenarios that might apply to 5% of shooters or have a 5% chance of happening to any given civilian shooter. These discussions tend to be the most fun, most contentious, and most expensive.
I still notice that most of the 'what ifs' and contention comes from those with the least amount of knowledge on the topic......go figure.
I'll bet most of the extras would come off their ARs if they had to hump 5-10 miles loaded out. :fie:
If a person committed himself to never posting pictures of his rifles on this board, he would probably spend a lot less money on his rifles.
The odds that you'll need to shoot someone... the odds that you'll do it with your AR... the odds that your optic or trigger or aftermarket controls will make a difference in this already almost impossibly unlikely scenario...
Elitism can get pretty ridiculous, in these circles of guys with more time and money than the common man. This board boasts enthusiasm for the hobby of being as firearm-prepared as possible... that's totally cool. We're members because we find that concept interesting. Just don't let it go to your head.
On THIS website? 5% And that's probably because they already have at least one OTHER rifle outfitted to taste.
AR ownership is a big boy endeavor, and not for the faint of wallet..
Other than adding optics, my SR15s are all stock.
SilentType
08-28-13, 19:07
If you can save weight why not save weight? The rifle you own today will be considered heavier as we move on in years. Better materials, better production methods, and more input from shooters to the industry is going to result in lighter & stronger rifles. I mean who would think that we could have all the accessories guys run today on their rifles and still have them hover at around 8 lbs with a loaded 30 rounder?
New methods of shooting are going to be discovered or adapted to defensive shooting. With those new methods will come changes in how rifles are used as well as what accessories we use.
Now I own 2 Colt LE6920's.
One I've left completely stock as it may become my wife's or a safe queen.
My other is a Magpul in Flat Dark Earth that I couldn't resist modding, ahem, a little...with the ususal, you know: optics, Geissle trigger, QD connections, BCM Gunfighter charging handle, VTAC sling, new butt pad, and I had to have some more Pmags magazines. I haven't added up or really wanted to know the ah, evolving cost...
As of now, I see no need for further modding additions.
Now to find some reasonably priced ammo.
The least expensive I've found so far is some bulk (100 rounds) Federal in 5.56 for $49.00 before Texas tax of 8.25%.
You can spend as much or as little as you need/want. My advice is this. Don't add or change anything on your rifle until you train with it in its current state. After you put it through its paces, decide if you need to add anything. Once you make some upgrades, don't go changing things around again until you put it through some training in its current state. I see lots of guys adding or taking away from their rifle and that's fine. But only do that after you've actually used the rifle.
Any changes I've made to my 6920 were out necessity after training and or real life scenarios. I have quality parts and accessories but some on this board may scoff because its not the latest greatest, brightest, lightest option. It works though. I don't spend money to constantly upgrade for fun or looks. If I see a need for change then I make it.
msap,
Right you are.
At this point, I see no need for further upgrades.
Since August in Texas is the hottest month of the year my enthusiasm for shooting has to be held in abeyance until October. Sweating buckets just to keep my yard (1 1/2 acres) in good shape is murder and September is nearly as hot as August.
Once October is here, I'll be shooting daily - so I've gotta find lower cost ammo and I haven't a clue where to start...?
I have upgraded my rifle so many times that I have all the parts I need to build another complete AR except a LPK and Buffer kit..
I probably should get on that and get one of those slide fire stocks to shoot out the core 15 barrel I upgraded from
"Yeah I wasnt disagreeing with you on building up from scratch. I actually prefer to build my own and have been for quite some time now. But I do recognize that some folks simply don't have the mechanical aptitude to do that."
That's correct.
Plus, those of us without mechanical aptitude (an admission for the afflicted, if they're men, most often have a hard time owning up to - but, I think it better to acknowledge this limitation than screw the pooch...) don't ENJOY things like building rifles.
I know guys who are absolute genius's with anything mechanical, but fail miserably in other arenas...
It all balances out...
Fortunately, my ability in other areas affords me the pleasure of buying what I want...
I agree with the way the answers are heading, and will put it like this.
I think the largest change in cost evolution of AR ownership is what you pay for your first rifle and wat you pay for your second or third.
For many, their first AR is a cheapy Bushmaster, DPMS or maybe it was bought with some knowledge and it's a Colt. Either way it was probably a bare bones AR with carry handle, plastic hand guards and FSP. Most likely left the store saying to themselves "I'm not gonna change a thing. I just want to shoot it."
100 rounds later they start to mod it. Optic, sling, quad rail, light, stock, new grip. Possibly it gets set up as a hog and varmit gun with a big scope and 20" barrel. Couple thousand rounds and it does everything he wants it to do. But it doesn't look right sitting bed side as a bump in the night gun. And there you have it. This seemingly seasoned AR owner now wants a costly new gun with rails, the right BUIS, everything he thinks he wants from the start. And he will SBR it. That's the biggest cost of all. The "next" gun. But it is purchased with a whole lot more experience and less modification needed for this more expensive, but one time purchase.
Then they want another and another seeking different calibers or bigger brand names etc. That's the LARGEST evolution in cost of AR ownership. The purchases of multiple guns; however done better and smarter each time.
I doubt many people buy another carry handle Olympic Arms as their second and third AR's.
RogerinTPA
09-03-13, 15:12
The vast majority of AR owners leave it 100% stock because it'll sit in the closet for years between single magazine dumps. Others will end up on Tapco and CAA mailing lists, and the itch will be irresistible. Then a few, who actually shoot their rifles with some degree of seriousness in training, will subtract everything that's not needed, add only what's needed. Even for a lot of these guys, this STILL means leaving the rifle totally stock.
So upgrades are absolutely not necessarily necessary. If you're standing up, you need a reason to sit down. If you're sitting, you need a reason to stand. Right? In the absence of a good reason to change, do not change.
You're speaking from a hobbiest, occasional shooter, minimalist, add the cheapest parts I can find, point of view, and not from a practical training point of view for an effective fighting rifle. If this was a hobby AR forum, I would agree. Most members here would not put Tapco, CAA, or UTG lower grade parts on our weapons. The things we normally would put on a weapon is listed by the business sponsors at the top of each page in this forum.
Upgrades depends on an individuals goals. Most here view carbines as fighting weapons and equip them, then train with them to do just that. The basics of which are a quality red dot, white light and sling. Anything else added is based on individual needs, like mine having Redi-Mods, VFGs, rails and then train with them accordingly. Prior to Sandy Hook, most here shot several thousand rounds a year during practice and training. Some 10K-20K rounds per year. So for you, upgrades are not necessarily necessary, but for us, it is essential to set up the weapon to fight and engage not only paper, but ultimately to effectively deal with 2 legged predators, day, low light and night. If a stock AR can effectively get you to that level, rock on. Most here would tend to disagree.
You're speaking from a hobbiest, occasional shooter, minimalist, add the cheapest parts I can find, point of view, and not from a practical training point of view for an effective fighting rifle. If this was a hobby AR forum, I would agree. Most members here would not put Tapco, CAA, or UTG lower grade parts on our weapons. The things we normally would put on a weapon is listed by the business sponsors at the top of each page in this forum.
Upgrades depends on an individuals goals. Most here view carbines as fighting weapons and equip them, then train with them to do just that. The basics of which are a quality red dot, white light and sling. Anything else added is based on individual needs, like mine having Redi-Mods, VFGs, rails and then train with them accordingly. Prior to Sandy Hook, most here shot several thousand rounds a year during practice and training. Some 10K-20K rounds per year. So for you, upgrades are not necessarily necessary, but for us, it is essential to set up the weapon to fight and engage not only paper, but ultimately to effectively deal with 2 legged predators, day, low light and night. If a stock AR can effectively get you to that level, rock on. Most here would tend to disagree.
I covered that with, "Then a few, who actually shoot their rifles with some degree of seriousness in training, will subtract everything that's not needed, add only what's needed."
But noting the almost 70,000 members of this board, I'm going to have to disagree with you, Roger. I think very likely my perspective of "most AR owners" applies to this board also. You say "most" here.... I would argue that the "most" you refer to is actually "most" of a small handful of very active core members.... not a true "most" of those 70,000 members.
More to the topic, I simply think the adorning of the platform with hardware needs to follow shooter development. It seems like a lot of that mentioned core membership here would tell a new AR owner than a red-dot and weapon light are essential upgrades for any AR, regardless. I would argue that if you don't possess the experience and proficiency to benefit from those upgrades (experience with low light, experience engaging targets quickly on a dynamic range), they are only added expense and weight.
I bought my first AR in 1971 and other than maintaining them they are the way they came.
RogerinTPA
09-03-13, 16:51
But noting the almost 70,000 members of this board, I'm going to have to disagree with you, Roger. I think very likely my perspective of "most AR owners" applies to this board also. You say "most" here.... I would argue that the "most" you refer to is actually "most" of a small handful of very active core members.... not a true "most" of those 70,000 members.
More to the topic, I simply think the adorning of the platform with hardware needs to follow shooter development. It seems like a lot of that mentioned core membership here would tell a new AR owner than a red-dot and weapon light are essential upgrades for any AR, regardless. I would argue that if you don't possess the experience and proficiency to benefit from those upgrades (experience with low light, experience engaging targets quickly on a dynamic range), they are only added expense and weight.
I disagree with your minimalist bubba gun theory, especially when applied to this forum. The reasons I stated is the purpose this forum was created.
I disagree with your minimalist bubba gun theory, especially when applied to this forum. The reasons I stated is the purpose this forum was created.
You don't think the equipment should follow the development of the shooter?
The board Mission Statement:
The purpose of M4Carbine.net is to provide a forum to share professional and technical information to the shooting community. The forum is open to military, law enforcement, and recreational shooters.
The OP asked what percentage of AR buyers leave the gun stock, indicated that it seems like ARs might require a significant expenditure in money to "customize," and expressed his worry of the cost of this new "hobby." My response addressed the OP directly, and pulled it into the context of these group tenets you seem to think you're defending from me.
Rational debate is going to work a lot better than applying your belief that a given sentiment "is not what this board is about."
You can buy a basic AR and then add stuff as needed or desired. This can add up quickly and result in a box of stuff you had to have but later found out it's not needed. If you're smart about it you'll think long and hard about what you want your rifle to do. For plinking only you can keep it really stock. For classes and HD/SD I think it should have a light, sling and a good optic. You don't *need*, IMO, a quad rail to do this or the most whizbang stock, super trigger group, pistol grip etc. If you look thought the AR Picture Thread you're going to find a lot of ARs with a lot of open rail space, an optic, sling and a light on working rifles. There is a reason for it.
I tell all of my buddies who are buying ARs to start stock and shoot it before buying extras for it. I was lucky and had the experience of shooting my Dad's AR and a bunch of his friends' rifles before buying mine so I don't have the box o'AR parts. You can go nuts with an AR and blow a lot of money or be thoughtful and save some cash.
a serious use rifle needs fixed sights, a sling, and a light. and some people (ok, a lot of them) shoot better with an optic of some kind.
but unless you are in a war zone, anything more than above is gilding the lily. nothing particularly wrong with that, however...
a serious use rifle needs fixed sights
A lot of hard/serious use rifles don't have fixed sights and are perfectly reliable.
a serious use rifle needs fixed sights, a sling, and a light. and some people (ok, a lot of them) shoot better with an optic of some kind.
Not so much fixed sights but a set of good back ups that could be brought into action incase the optic goes down. If you choose fixed, so be it.
RogerinTPA
09-03-13, 20:41
You don't think the equipment should follow the development of the shooter?
Left to themselves, things go from bad to worst. The equipment should follow the development of the shooter but people who don't train and develop critical skills through dedicated training will never realize what they don't know or need. Like I said, if a base gun fits the description of fitting one's needs for a defensive weapon, good on you, but most here would not agree. You stated your beliefs given your estimates about the membership, etc, I disagreed. The membership base and mind set here is not like something you might be used to dealing with, in any other hobby gun forum.
The board Mission Statement:
The OP asked what percentage of AR buyers leave the gun stock, indicated that it seems like ARs might require a significant expenditure in money to "customize," and expressed his worry of the cost of this new "hobby." My response addressed the OP directly, and pulled it into the context of these group tenets you seem to think you're defending from me.
I disagreed with your general assertion of the members of this board, which is not geared towards hobbyist gun collectors or the general public as far as adding cheap chinese parts or having a bare stock weapon for defensive purposes. You're entitled to your opinion but your assertion that most of us are in the mindset of the general public is off base.
Rational debate is going to work a lot better than applying your belief that a given sentiment "is not what this board is about."
Right back at ya. It works even better when you don't paint us all in the same broad stroke with just narrowed unsubstantiated generalizations & opinion. Excuse me for not following your debate protocols. What are you a debate coach? Don't care for my response, get over it or disengage.
Mod EDIT: The next time you want to move on, just be an adult and DO so.
All you have to do is navigate away, not hit the Submit button.
A lot of hard/serious use rifles don't have fixed sights and are perfectly reliable.
if you mean adjustable sights like LMT or carry handle, I agree. but a gun without an optic does not need folding sights...
Not so much fixed sights but a set of good back ups that could be brought into action incase the optic goes down. If you choose fixed, so be it.
I was speaking about primary sights. if you have an optic then any iron sights are BUIS. if you don't have an optic, I would prefer a fixed sight to a folding...
jastone7373
09-06-13, 10:25
Lol ya I guess it does all start to add up
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/jastone7373/image_zpsc10aec8f.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jastone7373/media/image_zpsc10aec8f.jpg.html)
Lol ya I guess it does all start to add up
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/jastone7373/image_zpsc10aec8f.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jastone7373/media/image_zpsc10aec8f.jpg.html)
Don't forget shipping
justin_247
09-06-13, 12:50
Lol ya I guess it does all start to add up
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii98/jastone7373/image_zpsc10aec8f.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jastone7373/media/image_zpsc10aec8f.jpg.html)
The only things on that list that I would consider "must have" is the Aimpoint and the sling. And you're completely missing a light and a bunch of spare magazines.
The Colt 6920 already comes with a Rogers Super Stock, which has QD points and sling attachment loops already on it. So, get the Colt 6920, the Aimpoint PRO, a VCAS or VTAC sling, an Elzetta light with FSB mount (or a Streamlight/Surefire with an MI FSB mount), and about a dozen PMAGs, and you're G2G for about $700 less.
quad3datwork
09-06-13, 12:54
I ordered my DDM4v4 few days ago (this be my first weapon of anything purchased). It haven't shipped yet.
I've already made purchases to the followings:
Federal XM855 5.56 1000rnd box
KAC micro front and rear BUIS
Magpul MS3 QD sling
Couple cheap goggles (offset shipping cost)
Knee pads (offset shipping cost)
I think the last major purchase I'm going to get is just an Aimpoint Pro RDS. Or maybe the AP Micro T-1 - only if I find a good deal. Today I'm just looking for a good rifle case and some PMAGs.
My friend had wasted some money when he first started out. Bushmaster AR and kept swapping out parts. He purchased some cheap scope he doesn't use anything. Etc, etc... I'd say just do the research first and get the good, reliable gears from the get-go. This friend now settled on the DDMK18 and he's very happy with it.
For me I guess the only on-going cost would be the range, rounds, targets, cleaning supplies. I'm not looking into modding anything beyond the set I've described above.
Metal_Mania
09-06-13, 13:38
Getting into AR's doesn't have to be insanely expensive, but I do admit, it's hard to resist customizing them.
I don't know how most of the guy's on here feel about buying stripped lowers, parts kits and uppers separately, but I feel that you can save a LOT of money doing a partial build, if you don't mind having a different brand lower/upper combo.
Right now SAA has a complete milspec lower with parts kit and M4 stock installed for $170 and I've seen quality uppers with free floated quad rails and other stuff south of $600. So for under $800, you have a working AR with a free floated quad rail (if thats what you want).
I would change out the furniture for Magpul stuff, add a magpul AFG, Burris AR 332 optic, maybe some rail covers and a flashlight.
jastone7373
09-06-13, 13:40
The only things on that list that I would consider "must have" is the Aimpoint and the sling. And you're completely missing a light and a bunch of spare magazines.
The Colt 6920 already comes with a Rogers Super Stock, which has QD points and sling attachment loops already on it. So, get the Colt 6920, the Aimpoint PRO, a VCAS or VTAC sling, an Elzetta light with FSB mount (or a Streamlight/Surefire with an MI FSB mount), and about a dozen PMAGs, and you're G2G for about $700 less.
Sure, a lot of that stuff isn't "necessary," but I really disliked the Rogers stock so that definitely had to go. Plus, i'm a southpaw, so the ambi controls are a must for me. I'm still missing a light on this rifle but that's still to come.
Mags, ammo, and training isn't included
justin_247
09-07-13, 11:58
Sure, a lot of that stuff isn't "necessary," but I really disliked the Rogers stock so that definitely had to go. Plus, i'm a southpaw, so the ambi controls are a must for me.
Honestly, you probably could have saved a ton of money just buying the rifle configured that way in the first place from somebody like Noveske.
And ambi-controls are not a "must." A personal preference, yes, but certainly not a "must."
Don't forget, sometimes in areas like California where I live, there are certain features a rifle can and cannot have. For example, in the configuration I want to run my rifle, I cannot have a flash suppressor. It MUST have a muzzle brake or compensator instead. I also cannot have a collapsible stock, pistol grip, or foregrip either. Retarded doesn't begin to cover it, but them's the facts. So in my case, as with any other Californian, or maybe even in other states, your needs and wants are dependent on state laws.
In another example, I have to run a piece of kydex that covers the entire grip of my rifle, effectively turning it into a non-pistol grip. The only way I can practically engage the safety is to have an ambi selector that I can activate with my right finger, so in my case an ambi safety IS necessary.
DiabhailGadhar
09-07-13, 18:28
Honestly, you probably could have saved a ton of money just buying the rifle configured that way in the first place from somebody like Noveske.
And ambi-controls are not a "must." A personal preference, yes, but certainly not a "must."
While I would agree that they aren't a must, I spent many years with access to right handed rifles only. They do, however, provide lefties a a much more equal playing field. Especially if you've spent the effort it takes to train to their strengths. A must, no, damn great to have, yes!
I went through this process with 1911's starting about 15 years ago. Dozens of guns went through my hands - factory, semi-custom, gunsmith builds, my builds. Carried CCW, competed and trained. Learned to build 'em.
Then one day I woke up and realized that all I really needed was a couple of identical, squared away 1911's. Wilson CQB's or Springfield Pro's or my Vickers guns or any of a half dozen other guns would fill the bill for me. I knew exactly what worked for me based on a lot of use in competition and training. My desire for different guns just melted away. My desire to shoot and master the art was all that remained.
I also realized after all of those rounds downrange that I could do what I needed to do with a Glock or Beretta or whatever, and that my preference was for a top drawer 1911 but my skillset was to the point that a sorted out tool was all I needed.
When BRD struck recently, I realized that this process would repeat unless I just went straight to the endgame. Bought a KAC SR15 Carbine and dot optic and battlecomp1.0 and a new grip.
Damn that thing feels right and just shoots.
My next gun? Another SR15 configured identically. I think I'm done. Let's go to the range.
Boba Fett v2
09-09-13, 20:06
I agree with the way the answers are heading, and will put it like this.
I think the largest change in cost evolution of AR ownership is what you pay for your first rifle and wat you pay for your second or third.
For many, their first AR is a cheapy Bushmaster, DPMS or maybe it was bought with some knowledge and it's a Colt. Either way it was probably a bare bones AR with carry handle, plastic hand guards and FSP. Most likely left the store saying to themselves "I'm not gonna change a thing. I just want to shoot it."
100 rounds later they start to mod it. Optic, sling, quad rail, light, stock, new grip. Possibly it gets set up as a hog and varmit gun with a big scope and 20" barrel. Couple thousand rounds and it does everything he wants it to do. But it doesn't look right sitting bed side as a bump in the night gun. And there you have it. This seemingly seasoned AR owner now wants a costly new gun with rails, the right BUIS, everything he thinks he wants from the start. And he will SBR it. That's the biggest cost of all. The "next" gun. But it is purchased with a whole lot more experience and less modification needed for this more expensive, but one time purchase.
Then they want another and another seeking different calibers or bigger brand names etc. That's the LARGEST evolution in cost of AR ownership. The purchases of multiple guns; however done better and smarter each time.
I doubt many people buy another carry handle Olympic Arms as their second and third AR's.
Sounds familiar. ;)
I grew up on Colt considering it was the very first rifle I shot back when I first joined the Army. Even as a young Soldier I would always mod my issue rifles as much as the Army would authorize. I wasn't a "gun guy" until mid-way through my career and I started out just like any other noob. My first personal AR was a DPMS, which I completely transformed over time, and ultimately evolved from there. But I think I went through every cost evolution you so eloquently articulated.
It doesn't start getting expensive until you throw night vision into the equation. My main go-to carbine (10.5" LMT) has about $1k worth of laser and IR light to go before it is configured the way I want it, again. With the T-1, Scout light, and QDSS-NT4 its already over $3k; with PVS14 on a pivot mount (non-preferred, I keep it on the helmet) it jumps another $3k.
It doesn't start getting expensive until you throw night vision into the equation. My main go-to carbine (10.5" LMT) has about $1k worth of laser and IR light to go before it is configured the way I want it, again. With the T-1, Scout light, and QDSS-NT4 its already over $3k; with PVS14 on a pivot mount (non-preferred, I keep it on the helmet) it jumps another $3k.
Depends on who your asking. 1k$ is very expensive especially when most wives find out their husbands just spent that on a gun, only to find out they are planning to throw 500-1500$ towards an optic there after :)
Depends on who your asking. 1k$ is very expensive especially when most wives find out their husbands just spent that on a gun, only to find out they are planning to throw 500-1500$ towards an optic there after :)
Cabelas card brother!
Figure an $1100 rifle, $600 red dot w/ mount, $100 light, $50 sling. So, you're up to $2000 without mags or ammo. But then you will find a better trigger calling your name-and so on.
Part of the game is to get the functionality you want while keeping it light weight.
I'd probably need therapy or be institutionalized if I added up all the rifles, parts, barrels, ammo, reloading equipment, triggers, sights, mags, tooling and accy's - I'd probably be able to pay off my mortgage....:secret:
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