View Full Version : Am I becoming a AR-15 snob?
The phrase - "quad rail" makes me cringe. I shake my head when I see a tapco ****ed AR at the gunshow for $2000, I snicker at the fella with the UTG railed with a green dot sight. Is it just me?
different people, different tastes
http://forum.greytalk.com/public/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif
Army Chief
06-11-13, 19:58
Although I'm sure most here can identify with feeling underwhelmed by certain components or configurations, it is important to keep in mind that we are all students, and for every hobby-grade AR owner that you see out there struggling to make wise choices, there is a legion of industry experts, professional shooters and service-types who would find your own knowledge base to be at a pretty fundamental level (not "you" in particular, but in the general sense).
For this reason, it is important to share what you know, and point to reputable resources, but to do it without the elitist, better-than-thou attitude that can so often come with a bit of knowledge. It's true that we all walk through gun shows and have to bite our tongues at what many vendors are telling prospective customers, but there is more value in being reserved and gracious than there is in being a well-informed prick. Sounds like you have the right info; just watch the attitude, as the tendency to look down at others serves no one well in the long run. As much as it pains me to say it, there are many folks out there who are adequately-served by substandard kit, as they really aren't going to put more than a box or two of ammo through their black rifles, anyway.
AC
STONE-YARDER
06-11-13, 19:59
That's the whole beauty of the AR platform that people can customize it to suit their own tastes. We were all green at one time...
That's the whole beauty of the AR platform that people can customize it to suit their own tastes. We were all green at one time...
That's also a curse of sorts. It opened up a massive aftermarket world. Many of these companies have fantastic advertising and sell huge amounts of parts/accessories.. Well to many in today's world those two things must make it 'good'.
Example- DPMS they are plastered in mags, have commercials on outdoor channels, are in a ton of gun stores so all this advertising leads many to buy a DPMS rifle. Most guys/girls shoot very few rounds which further reinforces the idea that brand-x is quality.
Always thought it was ironic that Bill Geissele hardly does any advertising. At least compared to say, Command Arms yet they are the standard for triggers. Yet how many people who are weekend warrior shooters can even say his name correctly? Also I've told people how much my SD-C costs and they thought I was stupid for paying that for a trigger.
People need a reasoning for paying more for quality parts and the best way to do that is for them to learn themselves through shooting/training. How many hobby shooters are going to do that?
How many hobby shooters are going to pay $1100 for a quality rifle already built? Honestly not many. Many will build it themselves and 'save money'. Plus they'll get satisfaction from doing it themselves. When someone comes to me and asks what parts should I use this is when it hits them.
For example a handguard. I almost always say a MOE. Yet most want a rail so I say Centurion and the price just sours their expression. This is where AC's very well done comment comes into play. Explain what makes the purchase of a Centurion over a UTG worth it. Do it as a teacher not as if you think their question or idea is beneath you.After that said and they still want to put junk on their gun it is all on them and when those parts fail and/or fail to meet his expectations then that person will recall what you said.
With a handgun it is simple. Someone asks me what should I buy and the answer just rolls off my tongue automatically, Glock17/19, or M&P.
With ARs and its ability to be built/customized by the shooter their is a lot of wiggle room to give good concise information.
-Jax
If you don't want to be surrounded by stupidity, don't go to a gun show. :confused:
All good points.... Lol @ well informed prick. In have mentored a few new AR owners--- I can see how the snicker at the green dot came off as prickish. Had a fella ask me at the range how much my "fortis" was--- after a few confusing looks I figured out he was really asking how much my aimpoint t-1 was. He was shooting a tapcoed gun... Whatever. He asked to shoot my noveske and I let him.... He saw the light no doubt.
AC, as usual, makes a good point. When I first joined this site, for me it was a strange combination of not knowing what I didn't (and still don't) know and wondering how the heck folks got certain ideas in their heads? A good example of the latter is triggers. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea two stage triggers are for precision work and single stage triggers are for fighting. In the rest of the rifle world, it's the other way around. (I suspect that the standard semi auto FCG is actually a two stage trigger where the pull of the first stage is the same weight as the break, which is why we see it as "creep" instead of "take up" but that's a subject for another time.)
On the other hand, I had know idea about all the little details that had such a huge impact in AR reliability. Previously, I had a Colt Competition HBar full sized rifle which proved very reliable, accurate and easy to shoot (it's still my favorite configuration) so I never had to worry about them.
I suppose I'm guilty of snobbery myself. There are things about well designed quality ARs I do not like. I cannot understand why carbon fiber handguards haven't replaced aluminum handguards. I don't like the long reset inherent in all AR triggers (although I understand why it's there). I'd rather have a good 1911 than a Glock. I think the PPQ is the ultimate modern handgun.
I have a friend with an AR he built. I don't like his choice of parts and features or the level of quality of the optic chosen but he's my friend and nearly as stubborn as I am. The more I argue why other choices are better, the more he's convinced he's right. So we just go out and bang off a few rounds instead. I gotta say, his rifle does shoot!
I think at some point we are all victim of AR snobbery. Ultimately it's a part of the basic human nature of posturing and attempting to place yourself at a higher degree than the next man. What it boils down to is the maturity to recognize this in yourself and real yourself in when you find yourself walking the fence line. We are all learning here, lets help the fellow shooter educate himself rather than belittle him.
goodoleboy
06-11-13, 21:10
It seems that most people around where I live are convinced that if it looks the same, it must be just as good. They are more prone to buy cheap reflex sights because they say "this one has two color options, that expensive one you have only has red, they look the same on the outside and they don't have any magnification anyway." I wish I had a penny for every time I have heard someone trash a top tier brand for charging too much "just for the name."
In reflection, all of those I referenced above have never had to stake their life on the reliability of their weapon. When the likelyhood that your weapon will function flawlessly means the difference between life and death, that extra 400-500 dollars doesn't really matter that much. However, if I purchased a rifle purely for recreational purposes and bought 500 rounds of ammo to last me a lifetime, spending that extra 400-500 dollars would sound crazy, unless I was made of money and bought the brand just to impress my friends at the range.
cthompson36
06-11-13, 21:13
it also depeneds on their reason for owning the gun. like for a guy who just goes out with friends and shoots beer cans theres no need for a 2000$ gun when a cheap del-ton would do the same thing for their needs. then again theres people who use them for self-defense who won't settle for second best whe it comes to their families lives. Being a person who fits more into the first category, I try not to hate on people for buying cheap components, but rather help them stretch their dollars further and get a better gun for the same money.
I do not like cheap firearms (inexpensive, yes- cheap, no). The aggravation of a HiPoint, for example, isn't worth the $500 in savings
........ from a martial/combative point of view (ah, grasshopper:).....
Remember that the gun is only a tool - the person is the weapon. You go up against an opponent with an econo-carbine but good tactics, training and mindset (and a bit of luck!!!!), and you are dead meat - holding your tier 1 thunderstick.
John
:pI'm not painting the pile yeah your a snob, I mean that in a good way truth is if I never bought a DD and instead bought the Stag I was going to would I have known what I was missing? I am however glad I took a fellow forum members advice and decided to go another route. I like to give suggestions when asked but my knowledge is more informational rather then experience. One day before I got an AR I was at the range shooting my PPQ and saw a BM carbon 15 lower crack after only 80 rounds, I helped the gentleman out by getting the phone number for BM CS
i prefer he term "aficionado"
BoringGuy45
06-11-13, 22:50
Probably for your average, run of the mill AR owner, having a mid to lower end AR is going to suit their needs and wants just fine. Most people are not going to shoot their AR enough that they would actually notice the difference in quality between, say, a Colt and a Bushmaster. I can understand, if your AR hobby is only casual (you shoot maybe once or twice a month, probably 500 or less rounds per year) you don't want to sink $2000 into it. But there's nothing in the rulebook that says, "Dedicate yourself to this lifestyle wholeheartedly or don't do it at all." In that case, I don't think it's a big deal when I see a low end AR that's completely plain except the $50 red dot on the top.
What DOES make me roll my eyes is when guys pull out their "dream rifle" that they think makes them the baddest of badasses and it's a DPMS with all TAPCO parts and a Bushnell red dot. The guy at the LGS said that DPMS is what the Navy SEALs, Delta Force, or whatever uses, Colt hasn't made a good rifle for years, with Noveske or LMT, you're just paying for the name, and this Bushnell sight is just as good, if not better, than an Aimpoint and it's $500 less. So, you pull out your well researched, quality built AR and the guy scoffs at how you're just "drinking the Kool Aid" and overpaid on a rifle that was still not as good as his.
Do we really need to rehash the merits of crappy AR's and parts?
I was actually a victim this phenomenon. And it is part of the reason I will refuse to buy an EoTech- besides for loving Aimpoints..
I was told by two people, who were friends with the same Sig Sauer carbine, I do not recall the model, just that it was piston driven, that my BCM was subpar and that their rifles would make mine look like a joke, or something. Also, that Eotechs are the best...etc..
I still have not ran into any failures with my carbine, and cannot grasp the joke of it? :confused:
The only AR accessory that terrifies me, are bi-pods in the VFG.
I guess I'm kind of a snob.
My desire to be above the rest fuels my interest and desire to attain a high degree of proficiency with firearms. This is the first time in my short life where I am staring to cultivate such a drive, so hopefully I can use it for good.
A shooter doesn't have to sink $2k in an AR to get one of good quality. A good quality AR can be had for half that price. But there are those that will spend big money on an "economy" brand because it has a quad rail and other cool doodads, thinking "parts is parts". All those cool extras don't amount to a pile of manure from Bandini Mountain if the basic rifle doesn't work.
It's kinda like electronics. If there is a stereo with a whole bunch of features, buttons and UFO lights next to a bare box and both are the same price, it's easy to figure out which will have better sound. Unfortunately, it's easy to be seduced by features and buttons so the blinking UFO lights can hypnotize you.
If you are going to run a budget AR, do it right. Make sure the function critical parts are right, in particular the BCG, barrel and FCG. This is where the "economy" brands screw up their rifles.
I once ran the Rubicon in a well used Cherokee that had plenty of Mojave Pinstriping and the paint was three quarters primer. The group I was with was made up of high dollar, well made and restored CJ-8s with Vortec engines and 700R4 trannies. They all had good axles, lockers and 35 inch tires along with stereos and custom interiors.
My Cherokee had good axles, lockers, a 4.0 6 cylinder backed by an NV4500 manual transmission and the interior was spartan but comfortable. But I had many hours behind the wheel of that rig both on and off road and knew it well. It also had a unibody with much greater torsional stiffness. I ran all the trails the CJ-8s did and did so with less worry about roll over because that unibody turned out to be much more stable on the trail than the CJ-8 body on frame design. I also got much better fuel economy. I think I might have had as much as $7500 wrapped up in it, including lift kit, drive train upgrades and what little I paid for the Jeep.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Ah%20Souli%20Tribe/SpiderLakeII.jpg
The trail leader had doubts my Cherokee would keep up. It was fun showing them how wrong he was
Tzintzuntzan
06-12-13, 00:18
I don't quite see the issue with a quad rail. My rail preference is for something that is thin, not necessarily super light since good balance can be achieved with a light weight barrel. In my experience a green ACOG reticle isn't necessarily a bad thing. The problem with a green dot isn't the color it's that the product probably wasn't made to very good standards. But UTG is still... :no:
Being a snob and becoming a snob are both bad things to undergo in life. My suggestion for you would be to try and think about what you are going to say and not just jump on someone for whatever reason. I know that I started to go down the snob road in some of my posts on this forum and I can see how some of the comments I made were not helpful despite the fact that at times that was what I intended to do.
Acting like a snob won't help you teach someone or prevent them from making mistakes. You should begin a conversation like that in a calm and not "holier than thou" manner if you want them to listen to you. Don't dismiss their claims or opinions outright, try your best to respectfully tell them why you feel your claims make sense. Don't expect their minds to be instantly changed but in a sense your goal is to plant and nurture a seed to help them see that they may have things to learn but don't do it in a way that makes them feel like they are being attacked or they won't listen.
I've had a few instances at local ranges where the guy next to me is having jam after jam while I am popping off a few hundred rounds with no issues. They inadvertently ask what it is I am doing differently. I try not to sound snobbish, but will just explain in the best way I know the whys to which all ARs are not created equal.
I keep my thoughts to myself unless asked for help by someone who seems genuinely sincere in their inquiry. Range know-it-alls who feel the need to school everyone always make me chuckle.
It's almost the same as trying to enlighten someone on the quality of a Stone IPA (or your favorite craft beer) as compared to their Bud lite. The craftsmanship of the microbeer as compared to the mass produced pissy yellow beer is obvious. Its easy to appear snobbish.
I did a thread awhile ago asking people if they judge people by their guns (what they own). In my line of work, I see and talk to tons of folks about guns, gear and training. Within a couple minutes of talking, I have quickly figured out if they are a "Gun Guy" or not.
Do I judge them because they think Oly Arms is "awesome?" Sometimes, but I immediately switch gears and go into education mode. Not to change their mind, but to paint them another picture based off of what I know.
I have found that getting into pissing matches (both in person and online) gets you nowhere. Show them the fact, explain standards and leave it be.
C4
I have found that getting into pissing matches (both in person and online) gets you nowhere.
I don't bother trying to enlighten Short Bussers. When I'm loaning an idiot my lower with a fixed buttstock to mortar stuck cases out of his LWRCi piece of junk so he doesn't crack his slider stock... I just sigh and go back to doing my thing.
I don't bother trying to enlighten Short Bussers. When I'm loaning an idiot my lower with a fixed buttstock to mortar stuck cases out of his LWRCi piece of junk so he doesn't crack his slider stock... I just sigh and go back to doing my thing.
It tis my job.
C4
It tis my job.
I do not envy the talent you deal with in your business. :p
I do not envy the talent you deal with in your business. :p
Sometimes it is rewarding. To see someone "get it" (not only on the gun side, but on the training side) is worth it.
The ones that stick their head in the sand and scream like a 5yr old is entertaining. So it is a win both ways. :D
The key thing to tell yourself is that we ALL started out somewhere. My first AR? A RRA Varmint. My Second AR? BushHamster M17. :eek:
C4
the 556 guy
06-12-13, 08:59
If you don't want to be surrounded by stupidity, don't go to a gun show. :confused:
I second that. They are overpriced on everything now, anyway. At a minimum, 5-10% over normal price, plus admission.
Although I'm sure most here can identify with feeling underwhelmed by certain components or configurations, it is important to keep in mind that we are all students, and for every hobby-grade AR owner that you see out there struggling to make wise choices, there are a legion of industry experts, professional shooters and service-types who would find your own knowledge base to be at a pretty fundamental level (not "you" in particular, but in the general sense).
For this reason, it is important to share what you know, and point to reputable resources, but to do it without the elitist, better-than-thou attitude that can so often come with a bit of knowledge. It's true that we all walk through gun shows and have to bite our tongues at what many vendors are telling prospective customers, but there is more value in being reserved and gracious than there is in being a well-informed prick. Sounds like you have the right info; just watch the attitude, as the tendency to look down at others serves no one well in the long run. As much as it pains me to say it, there are many folks out there who are adequately-served by substandard kit, as they really aren't going to put more than a box or two of ammo through their black rifles, anyway.
AC
Golden Advice!
The key thing to tell yourself is that we ALL started out somewhere. My first AR? A RRA Varmint. My Second AR? BushHamster M17. :eek:
C4
Yeap. My first AR purchase was a Del-Ton upper on a DPMS lower. I was ate up times 2. Bought it 3 months before I joined here.
The very first range trip with that thing I got to do something I hadn't done since getting out if the Army 3 years before......practice my mortaring skills. :rolleyes:
-Jax
midSCarolina
06-12-13, 09:12
It only bothers me when I see gunshow ARs loaded with the shittiest parts imaginable and marked up at a ridiculous price. Those guys know what they are doing... they are exploiting people who don't know any better. As much as I want to walk up to the people about to buy them and let them know they are buying shit, I typically don't say anything bc they are typically the people who think they look cool and will never know any better.... so i just let them live in their ignorant bliss.
If I have a friend that is about to put some NCStar or UTG or something like that on their rifle you better believe I say something though. Friends with amateur looking rifles are kinda like friends with really busted girlfriends... no one wants to be around them when they decide to bring their shit out.
Plus I got screwed over by one of those assholes before I had any idea of what an AR even was... looked fine to me. It didn't shoot fine tho :mad: . And it weighed about 12lbs with all that UTG on it :( .
Friends with amateur looking rifles are kinda like friends with really busted girlfriends... no one wants to be around them when they decide to bring their shit out.
That is pretty funny right there........ :)
I don't mind when people have goofy things on their weapons.
When goofy shit comes out of people's mouths that bugs me;
-I don't need training, I am just naturally a good shot.
-It's just a range toy, I don't see using a gun for defense.
-if it doesn't have a 4 in it, its not a good defense weapon.
-its a poodle shooter. give me something with knockdown power.
-it shits where it eats. (wow this one bugs me)
Ignorance is bliss. I thought I was pretty cool and modern running around Iraq in 2005 with a 3 point sling with paracord attachment points and a top rail cover on my RAS. No regular joes knew any better until the popularity of these rifles in the civvy market exploded.
I came to this forum to get the education on AR's that I gained through trail, error and money with handguns. All my LGS wanted to sell me was what they sold, Bushmaster, etc. With what I gleaned here I held onto my money until a good buddy sold me his lightly used Colt w/trij reflex sight! It remains largely stock and does what I need.
19852
I am not perfect, certain things I skimp on, but just not my Firearms. Even though I only put about 200-500 a month down range, I want my AR to have the best. First of all I would rather wait and save money to buy something of quality. Second, even know I do not put many down range if for any reason I need to use my AR one day I want the quality and integrity of parts to be the last thing I worry about.
As for other people, sometimes you can lead a camel to the water but you cannot make the camel drink it. When I asked for help in getting my first AR I was told I was either going to listen to the guy helping or keep on moving and get advice somewhere else.
I think we all judge to a point, it's in our nature. I do not care who it is when a guy walks into the range and I am there alone or whatever, I eye his stuff up and down. My first thought is interest, from there maybe a little judging and I am thinking he is judging me. But when I catch myself thinking this way I try to stop and change that behavior. I have been judged or made fun of a lot when I was a kid based on my old bikes and old handed down clothes so on the other hand now it sometimes feels good to be able to be judged by others and not worry about it. So knowing how it feels when someone acts like an ass based on ownership of material items, I try not to be, but instead I try thinking what can I do to help this situation, if they choose to listen awesome if not, just as well. What you eat does not make me shit and if my Grandma had balls she would be my Grandpa
I sometimes ask myelf this same question. Then I go back to when I first came here and I was in the exact same boat as almost every newbie that comes here. I thought RRA was a great brand. I knew Colt was tops but could never find one that wasn't out of this world costly. I had no clue and had never heard of BCM, DD, Knight, Noveske etc. Now whenever I hear friends speak about AR's I try to pass on as much info as they ask for and do it fairly diplomatically. With all of that being said in no way do I consider myself any kind of expert. In many ways I still feel like a complete newbie after reading some of the posts on this site.
To OP -
I think your question should be re-phrased as: "Am I becoming an AR Nerd?"
I think the title "AR Snob" would clearly apply to certain banned members (most of us know at least one such member), so in this context snob is waaayyyyy too much of a strong word to describe a well rounded AR knowledge base.
I don't want to say I am a Brand Snob, but over over the years I have seen what works and what doesn't for me. I don't mind paying more for quality. For the most part i will respect someone who has the right attitude and is willing to learn, however when a guy comes in with his delton upper on a polymer lower with a slidefire stock bragging about how awesome his rifle is, that is when I have a hard time taking him serious.
The key thing to tell yourself is that we ALL started out somewhere. My first AR? A RRA Varmint. My Second AR? BushHamster M17. :eek:
C4
I wasn't far from you starting off.
My very first was a Bushmaster Varminter which actually shot pretty well, followed by a RRA Elite that I ninja'd up and thought was pretty awesome after I listened to the counter guy about how it was sooo better than a Colt. :suicide: Live and Learn right?
Berserkr556
06-12-13, 12:06
I guess I'm an AR snob because I refuse to buy substandard AR parts. I'm a new guy here but I've been shooting firearms since I was 6, I'm 46 now, and had a Colt SP1 in the early 1980s when I was in high school. The first AR I bought with my own money was a Colt AR-15 A2 HBAR in 1986.
I didn't buy another AR for many years but caught the bug again around 2006 and started doing research. A year later I decided to buy a Bravo Co. upper, BCG and lower since a complete carbine wasn't available when I was ready to buy. I won't buy an accessory, light, RDS, Rail etc., unless it's first rate and proven in combat. I'm just a poor boy from the swamps of Brimfield but you won't catch me buying junk. When family, friends or coworkers ask me what AR or parts to buy I will do my best to educate them as to why they should buy quality. Some folks amaze me though, they brag about all the money they make but will buy a hobby AR and junk accessories and brag about all the money they saved but cry like a girl at the range when their AR won't run.
I'm never arrogant when trying to educate someone to buy quality ARs and parts but sometimes it's hard to bite my tongue when some guy at a gunshow is lying to some young guy about a junk AR he's selling. I don't act like I know it all because I don't. I'm still learning and have learned alot in the short time I've been a member here but I always say Friends Don't Let Friends Buy Junk ARs.
Elegance by definition.. Cheers.. Ron
Although I'm sure most here can identify with feeling underwhelmed by certain components or configurations, it is important to keep in mind that we are all students, and for every hobby-grade AR owner that you see out there struggling to make wise choices, there is a legion of industry experts, professional shooters and service-types who would find your own knowledge base to be at a pretty fundamental level (not "you" in particular, but in the general sense).
For this reason, it is important to share what you know, and point to reputable resources, but to do it without the elitist, better-than-thou attitude that can so often come with a bit of knowledge. It's true that we all walk through gun shows and have to bite our tongues at what many vendors are telling prospective customers, but there is more value in being reserved and gracious than there is in being a well-informed prick. Sounds like you have the right info; just watch the attitude, as the tendency to look down at others serves no one well in the long run. As much as it pains me to say it, there are many folks out there who are adequately-served by substandard kit, as they really aren't going to put more than a box or two of ammo through their black rifles, anyway.
AC
I don't think it's being a "snob" to want to buy quality parts, any more than it is being a snob when you buy any other well made product over a poorly made one.
I have some things that I know are "disposable" and so I feel no need to spend significant amounts of money on them. Some things are going to last a long time and I want quality parts that I know will work for a long time. At times, even quality pieces aren't that much more in cost.
For the infrequent shooter, the commercial AR's will work just fine. Something that is going to see no more than a few hundred rounds a year is probably more in the "disposable" category than a rifle that's going to see that averaged a week or a day.
Ya gotta just step up and own it folks.. Same as beer and coffee, there's the good stuff and everything else, eh? Ron
the_0perator
06-12-13, 12:45
I walked into a gun store with a bushy carbon15 once. Yep, only once.
After stepping away from the gun scene for the past 20 years or so, I had made a rare uninformed hasty knee jerk purchase without doing any research. Last I was in tune with things, Glock had just become the new thing and people had finally accepted a "plastic" gun. Not so much the case with the carbon AR.
After the snickers and me making feeble attempts at claiming I had bought it for my wife, I flipped it and moved on to a more traditional AR. No regrets.
RogerinTPA
06-12-13, 13:09
I wouldn't say "snob', you're simply transitioning to being a real informed gun aficionado (gun guy). An epiphany to a true gun culture, where terms like "Just as good as", "close enough", or being called a 'gun snob' or using substandard guns, parts or gear doesn't enter your mind and doesn't quite cut it in our reality. Reading the utter stupidity on other gun forums make your head explode. Fear not...:cool:
The only reason to go to gun shows is for the people watching and to look at old firearms that aren't made anymore. If you're going there to get an AR you're doing it wrong... :nono:
I own both a Colt LE6920 and a Stag Model 1.
I've had my Stag longer than the Colt and it has eaten every type of ammo I've fed it (steel case, brass, factory and hand loads) with no problems other than a few dud primers. There is absolutely no play between the upper and lower on it after ~ 1100 rounds. I've only put 300 through the Colt so far but it had play between the upper and lower right outta the box. I know that doesn't have an effect on performance, I just found it suprising is all...
So far I have not been disappointed with my Stag and if they move to a free(er) state I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.
I'll certainly be glad when this ammo drought is over. I really need to shoot more...:(
I've had my Stag longer than the Colt and it has eaten every type of ammo I've fed it (steel case, brass, factory and hand loads) with no problems other than a few dud primers. There is absolutely no play between the upper and lower on it after ~ 1100 rounds. I've only put 300 through the Colt so far but it had play between the upper and lower right outta the box. I know that doesn't have an effect on performance, I just found it suprising is all...
This has no effect on function or accuracy and is not a indicator of quality. IIRC the spec is to have a slight gap to allow for thermal expansion.
Berserkr556
06-12-13, 13:39
The only reason to go to gun shows is for the people watching and to look at old firearms that aren't made anymore.
That's not completely true in my case. There's a guy at the local show who has quality ammo cheaper than anyone online and another guy who has the best USGI ammo cans available. I've been doing business with these people since the 80s and it's always good to see them.
cthompson36
06-12-13, 14:28
it doesnt make you a snob to buy nice stuff, what makes you a snob is buying nice stuff and bitching at everyone who doesnt.
crosseyedshooter
06-12-13, 17:03
So, help me out here and define what's acceptance for an AR snob, so to speak.
Sights: Folding vs. Fixed, Magpul vs. Troy
Optics: EOTech vs Aimpoint, MTAC vs. ACOG (?)
My vote for the snob: FSP, rear folding Troy or other metal sight, Aimpoint, ACOG
Btw, I've got the cheaper stuff: MBUS, EOTech, MTAC.
gesundheit
06-12-13, 17:20
So, help me out here and define what's acceptance for an AR snob, so to speak.
Sights: Folding vs. Fixed, Magpul vs. Troy
Optics: EOTech vs Aimpoint, MTAC vs. ACOG (?)
My vote for the snob: FSP, rear folding Troy or other metal sight, Aimpoint, ACOG
Btw, I've got the cheaper stuff: MBUS, EOTech, MTAC.
The parts you listed don't have enough differentiation price or functionality wise to factor into snobbiness. They are just preferences.
cthompson36's definition of snob hits it on the head.
I mind my own business unless it's a close friend, relative or been asked. Otherwise, your rifle is yours and you can do whatever you want with it.
crosseyedshooter
06-12-13, 19:11
Oh, I don't know...mention Aimpoint and EOTech in the same sentence and somebody will bring up the DD torture test video and "EOTech batteries will die right when you need it to defend your family!"
I guess I'm agreeing with you but my point is that being a snob doesn't necessarily have to do with cost of the parts either. It's just the universal "I'm better than you"
attitude that's so prevalent on the Internet.
The parts you listed don't have enough differentiation price or functionality wise to factor into snobbiness. They are just preferences.
cthompson36's definition of snob hits it on the head.
AC, you are a true gentleman.
Although I'm sure most here can identify with feeling underwhelmed by certain components or configurations, it is important to keep in mind that we are all students, and for every hobby-grade AR owner that you see out there struggling to make wise choices, there is a legion of industry experts, professional shooters and service-types who would find your own knowledge base to be at a pretty fundamental level (not "you" in particular, but in the general sense).
For this reason, it is important to share what you know, and point to reputable resources, but to do it without the elitist, better-than-thou attitude that can so often come with a bit of knowledge. It's true that we all walk through gun shows and have to bite our tongues at what many vendors are telling prospective customers, but there is more value in being reserved and gracious than there is in being a well-informed prick. Sounds like you have the right info; just watch the attitude, as the tendency to look down at others serves no one well in the long run. As much as it pains me to say it, there are many folks out there who are adequately-served by substandard kit, as they really aren't going to put more than a box or two of ammo through their black rifles, anyway.
AC
fallenangelhim
06-12-13, 21:55
One thing I've noticed regarding the open AR market.
Those who spend lots of time on advertisements sell entry level/low quality products.
Those who I sometimes have to google their names and don't advertise as much usually are high end, high quality, good value products.
Just an observation.
While I listed the evidence of my snobbishness in an earlier, I just realize my PSA carbine tips the balance back in favor of me being one of the unwashed ignorant. Whew! Dodged THAT bullet!
The overwhelming majority of what I know about AR's is what I have learned on this site from you guys and from taking classes. For years, I have referred friends with questions to this site to learn. But, only a couple actually followed through, since they really didn't want to learn anything. They really just wanted me to tell them what to buy. This really bugged me until a couple of years ago.
I've learned to simply give them some information, refer them to this site, and encourage them to "shoot the gun". At least I've been able to help one identify his Chinese Aimpoint and get his money back and help another with bolt upgrades, staking, and "mortaring".
I can only salute those of you on this site who teach us here and at the range. Thank you
Eric
What AC said, to a tee.
And as others have mention, few of us walked out of the LGS at 21 with a Noveske, KAC, DD, LMT, or Colt... Especially before the Internet came out...
My first ARs... Mega lowers (not bad at all) with CMMG uppers. They worked fine and were accurate enough for me for several years and have since been upgraded to a Noveske complete upper and a VLTOR / Noveske build.
It's easy to be a dick to people, but everyone who is sincerely interested in the firearms community should take the time to attempt to help people who are young or just new to firearms. And that is a sincere interest to teach, inform, as well as empathize with people who maybe a Del Ton, CMMG, or Bushy maybe all they can afford. Show them how they can make improvements, how they can make sure there particular weapon is as reliable as it can be, etc.
Of course range commandos and fudds might not ask or want to listen - and like others I'm not gonna waste my time when obviously it isn't going to do any good.
This has no effect on function or accuracy and is not a indicator of quality. IIRC the spec is to have a slight gap to allow for thermal expansion.
Like I said, I know it doesn't have an effect on performance. And there is a gap that I can see light through, however there is no decerible movement between the upper and lower like there is with my Colt.
All I'm saying is, for the $770 OTD I paid in '09 for my Stag and as reliable as it has been so far, is that I have no reason to doubt using it to defend myself if the need ever arose. It is perfectly servicable for my needs and has yet to give me a reason to doubt my purchase.
That's not completely true in my case. There's a guy at the local show who has quality ammo cheaper than anyone online and another guy who has the best USGI ammo cans available. I've been doing business with these people since the 80s and it's always good to see them.
Sounds like you have a good one. Any common caliber in my area is overpriced at the gun shows.
My local gunshows are only good to watch people buy overpriced AR's with cheep plastic chinese accessories hanging off them and cheap chiniese made gear and knives. As well as way overpriced pistols. You should see the prices some people have paid for Mini-14's. I shit you not I saw someone pay $1500 for one in the post Sandy Hook panic...:eek:
The only things I like to look for are older firearms that are no longer in production.
Although I'm sure most here can identify with feeling underwhelmed by certain components or configurations, it is important to keep in mind that we are all students, and for every hobby-grade AR owner that you see out there struggling to make wise choices, there is a legion of industry experts, professional shooters and service-types who would find your own knowledge base to be at a pretty fundamental level (not "you" in particular, but in the general sense).
For this reason, it is important to share what you know, and point to reputable resources, but to do it without the elitist, better-than-thou attitude that can so often come with a bit of knowledge. It's true that we all walk through gun shows and have to bite our tongues at what many vendors are telling prospective customers, but there is more value in being reserved and gracious than there is in being a well-informed prick. Sounds like you have the right info; just watch the attitude, as the tendency to look down at others serves no one well in the long run. As much as it pains me to say it, there are many folks out there who are adequately-served by substandard kit, as they really aren't going to put more than a box or two of ammo through their black rifles, anyway.
AC
Nicely stated. :)
It is people like Army Chief that helped me make good decisions on my first AR purchase 2 weeks ago along with good glass and a bipod.
I do appreciate it. I like only paying once for stuff.
crosseyedshooter
06-13-13, 20:28
Glad there are friendlies willing to share wisdom and advice without prejudice or judgement. :dance3:
It just reminds me that 95% of the shooting community is ignorant.
ignorant is a harsh word, uneducated doesn't sound as bad.
ennbeegunny15
06-15-13, 08:56
Personally I don't care what people run, sometimes you have to learn what works and doesn't work. I ran mbus's for years because they were a cheap alternative, then I tried the troys....needless to say all of my rifles have Troy sights. Why? Not because I'm a snob, because they work for me, why? Better sight picture, better shooting. I now run bcm bfh uppers. Why? Because I'm a snob? No, because I shoot better with them. I run aimpoints because they work for me, I've used cheaper red dots and they may work for a little while, but when you are shooting and the red dot cuts in and out on you, that's when you realize you should have bought quality. Buying proven quality items doesn't make you a snob. It makes you an informed shooter. That's my take on it.
Top quality gear is nice, but you have to give a nod to the guy that buys only what will get the job done, but can shoot with the best of them.
I am a fan of simplicity and I let everyone do there own thing. What I find funny is the guy who has his rifle and all of the sudden is a expert on tactics and "real world combat/defense". I just sit back and laugh to myself.
What I want to know is: Who is telling these gun store counter guys that Oly or BM is better than a Colt or Noveske? I mean other than the obvious... I've seen the BM ads and comments about how they are like "Ferrarris", but really, the LGS guys are really convinced and make all sorts of logical sounding arguments to reinforce their assertions.
Personally, I got lucky. (Or maybe just had some common sense...) When I decided to get into ARs, the guy I asked for tips and advice, was a member here, a well schooled shooter, learned his AR lessons the hard way, and is just an all around good guy. He was not snobby with me, despite my complete ignorance of the subject matter. I owe him a debt of gratitude that can never be repaid.
Army Chief
06-15-13, 11:27
We just had a very similar thread show up on the 1911Forum, where folks were trying to gauge whether they constituted an "Elite" group of 1911 owners because they had purchased Wilson Combat pistols. I probably took a harder line on the matter than necessary, but I find it ridiculous when people connect their own self-worth to their purchase decisions, or the things that they happen to own. "Elite" designations come from the things that you DO in life, and not from the things that you buy along the way.
So it is with this discussion. I absolutely advocate buying the very best kit that one can afford (and believe me, it is twice as expensive in the long run to invest in second-rate stuff), but none of this should translate into a smug, self-congratulatory attitude. There is a world of difference between (a) quietly sharing the line with another AR shooter who clearly has no idea what he is doing, offering good-natured counsel when asked, and (b) smirking at the guy as if he is an insufferable idiot, and you are the bastion of all knowledge.
Makes no difference if we're talking cars, guns, beer or power tools -- folks always respond better to a kind-natured mentor who genuinely wants to help them improve than to an arrogant ass who just might happen to be right about a few things, but who can't be troubled to waste his time beyond making a few snarky comments. It's Human Nature-101.
If you spend much time around the guys who really, really know their craft, and who truly live this stuff, you tend to find that they are very soft-spoken and modest -- almost to the extreme. To my mind, that is a model worthy of emulation.
AC
We just had a very similar thread show up on the 1911Forum, where folks were trying to gauge whether they constituted an "Elite" group of 1911 owners because they had purchased Wilson Combat pistols. I probably took a harder line on the matter than necessary, but I find it ridiculous when people connect their own self-worth to their purchase decisions, or the things that they happen to own. "Elite" designations come from the things that you DO in life, and not from the things that you buy along the way.
So it is with this discussion. I absolutely advocate buying the very best kit that one can afford (and believe me, it is twice as expensive in the long run to invest in second-rate stuff), but none of this should translate into a smug, self-congratulatory attitude. There is a world of difference between (a) quietly sharing the line with another AR shooter who clearly has no idea what he is doing, offering good-natured counsel when asked, and (b) smirking at the guy as if he is an insufferable idiot, and you are the bastion of all knowledge.
Makes no difference if we're talking cars, guns, beer or power tools -- folks always respond better to a kind-natured mentor who genuinely wants to help them improve than to an arrogant ass who just might happen to be right about a few things, but who can't be troubled to waste his time beyond making a few snarky comments. It's Human Nature-101.
If you spend much time around the guys who really, really know their craft, and who truly live this stuff, you tend to find that they are very soft-spoken and modest -- almost to the extreme. To my mind, that is a model worthy of emulation.
AC
Lock this thread. In my opinion there isn't anything left to be said. AC has once again summed it all up and focused on the important, instead of the trivial.
It's easy to be a dick to people, but everyone who is sincerely interested in the firearms community should take the time to attempt to help people who are young or just new to firearms. And that is a sincere interest to teach, inform, as well as empathize with people who maybe a Del Ton, CMMG, or Bushy maybe all they can afford. Show them how they can make improvements, how they can make sure there particular weapon is as reliable as it can be, etc.
Excellent points, this is where we all should try to give back or pay forward to those young or new shooters.
Army Chief
06-15-13, 12:57
We all may have wanted one, but we didn't all get to ride a Schwinn Stingray to school, did we? (Well, I didn't, anyway.)
Sometimes it just takes a while to get to where you really, really want to be.
Learn, grow, make good decisions ... it's a process.
AC
"Elite" designations come from the things that you DO in life, and not from the things that you buy along the way.
AC
Hope you don't mind brother. Stealing this for a signature line. Eloquent words.
-Jax
AC were you a English teacher at some point or a psychological communicator? I ask because you have such a great way with words, your delivery and content is always spot on and when I see a thread that you have responded to I am always eager to read it, along with taking information from your post.
To the subject at hand, I know a few that decided to intervene and or start their interest in firearms with the recent panic, and honestly is was not the best time to start but in other thinking its an ally gained and we can never have to many of them. A friend of mine bought 2 BM carbon 15's during the panic and not long after his purchase he and I conversed and found out that we have similar interest. I am also new to the scene but I concider myself lucky in that I asked for advice and followed it before I spent my hard earned money on a AR, my friend went on his on Intuition which "you don't know, what you don't know" truly shined. Since then I've passed the advice given to me, backed by information gathered here.
Together we are trying to offload those 2 BM, probably taking a small loss on them but that I would build him something in their place and he would not miss that loss afterward. I offered to build him an AR of quality and promised that it would be dependable.
I feel as though I was lucky in asking and taking advice from others, at first I did not know the right way to approach my buddy, but the more I thought about it I felt that if I could do so in a way that was non-attacking or arrogant that I'd be able to help him and preventing what could be an absolute loss of money to him or worse if it came down to him needing to use it. All I really did was open a door and welcomed him to walk through it. In the end this also helped me. I am still compiling items for him and when ever he and I get a chance we hit the range, little by little I explain why I choose the items for my build and for my complete I've spent so much money on different configurations that hopefully I can save him from making some of the same mistakes I did. I may have even talked him into the adaptive carbine 1 course, which I'm very excited about.
As I think Grant and a few others said we all start somewhere and hopefully we grow from that point, change or knowledge is a process and it's definitely not just an event. Nothing is wrong with being proud of knowledge but using it and material to belittle others in my opinion is a step in the wrong direction. From Bob Marley," I am not perfect and I do not claim to be, but before you point your finger at me make sure your hands are clean" I feel the same can be said about myself who am I to judge? But offering solidified advise that's something totally different . At times I need to put myself in check and you gentleman are a sobering testament to that, as I learn something new here every day.
I am new to ARs. I originally wanted to find a rifle that met the following criteria:
1. Accurate - I have never owned a rifle with 1.5 MOA accuracy or better with good ammo other than old heavy bolt guns.
2. Semi automatic - I prefer semi auto rifles, shotguns, and pistols over other action types.
3. Chambered in .223 - I wanted to be able to shoot a lot with it.
I started research by looking at the Mini 14 and found out quickly it would not meet my needs. All of my research lead to the AR15, so I researched further. I started lurking on internet forums. Luckily I found this site. The expertise on this site is fantastic! I ended up with a BCM 16" SS410 upper, and it meets the criteria I set out to fulfill.
I am grateful for the information I have found on m4carbine.net. I have a rifle that is accurate and I can be very happy that my rifle is quality. I hope soon to SBR a lower and put together a 12.5" fighting rifle for home defense. I know that if I am willing to listen and read that I will end up with a high quality, reliable rifle.
Thanks to everyone on this site that is so willing to pass along their knowledge! As a newcomer I am luckily to have a resource like m4carbine.net where true experts are willing to help folks like me.
Army Chief
06-15-13, 15:21
AC were you a English teacher at some point or a psychological communicator?
Nothing so profound as that, no; however, I did go to kindergarten twice. Not surprisingly, I'm a pretty good speller, I don't much mind sharing my stuff and I always appreciate a good nap.*
;)
AC
*Always slept on the blue side, myself. The old guys will know exactly what I'm talking about.
.
I found it to be less painful to e-mail an interested friend with an assortment of attachments (The Chart, What Parts Break..., So You Want to Buy an AR...) and let that information break their hearts, instead of the info coming out of my mouth.
It seems most people that buy kaa-kaa AR's, just want someone to agree and condone that they made a good decision. They're afraid to find out the truth about probably the most expensive gun they’ve ever bought.
I had an engineer friend asking me to give my opinion on his AR. I asked him to read the e-mail that I would send him. After he read the info, he complains to another friend “Frank sent me a bunch of stuff and he basically just told me my AR was crap.” :) But now, he understood what made one AR better than another.
After an AR conversation with a manager at Cabela’s, I sent him the “info”. Later, he told me that “info” was good and "we sell some pretty crummy AR’s …BUT we have some good ones too…don't we?" I agreed because they do...DD, Colt,...S&W.
So, if a guy is interested, giving the digital info you’ve accumulated is less personal and confrontational than blatant honest conversations.
But wanting to “brag” on what you know and talking condescending to someone for some ego-related glory boost to your pride, then yes, you are becoming a “snob”.
But maybe it’s just me…
.
My stepfather came to me for advise on buying a quality M4 type rifle the other month. I advised KAC, DD, LMT, Colt, Any number of proven brands. I advised against DPMS, Bushmaster, etc.
He now has several DPMS rifles.
Same situation with my lawyer, except his is already giving him serious reliability issues, but at least he bought it at a truly good deal of under $600 mid-panic, and knew going in that it might well require work, and if he gets tired of it, can dump it for profit.
Suwannee Tim
06-15-13, 20:09
The phrase - "quad rail" makes me cringe......
The word "timing" as "timing a flash hider" makes me cringe. The correct word is index or register or even set. "Timing" refers to objects which are in motion or otherwise time dependant.
As far as being a snob, I see all different kinds of stuff on the range. From a piece of junk Winchester 290 to a McMillan 375 H&H to give two examples from yesterday. Makes no nevermind to me.
No, that's an incredibly immature way to act.
Nothing so profound as that, no; however, I did go to kindergarten twice. Not surprisingly, I'm a pretty good speller, I don't much mind sharing my stuff and I always appreciate a good nap.*
;)
AC
*Always slept on the blue side, myself. The old guys will know exactly what I'm talking about.
I also had 2 years of Kindergarten, unfortunately I have not always been the best speller or good with my grammar, I'm sure some here already know that, I used to think spell check helped me but now I feel like she is an evil vixon always setting me up for failure. ;)
OK AC I tried NAP.... Naval Aviation Pilot, Navigational Action Point, am I cold as hell or a tad warm? I can not even come up with a guess for the blue side though, a toss in the air would have me guessing it's a Neutral standpoint but I'm probably way off. This was going to be a PM but I figured I'm among friends and my embarrassment should be enjoyed by all here.
ScottFarkus
06-15-13, 21:42
AC,
I think I copy you about nap time, did your mat have a blue side and a red side?
Ha ha, I had not thought of those for a long time!
( showing my age I suppose )
And yes, your posts are extremely well versed and helpful.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Army Chief
06-15-13, 21:54
I also had 2 years of Kindergarten, unfortunately I have not always been the best speller or good with my grammar, I'm sure some here already know that, I used to think spell check helped me but now I feel like she is an evil vixon always setting me up for failure. ;)
OK AC I tried NAP....
Vixen man, it's vixen. :D
Don't feel too badly about not finding any hidden meaning behind the "nap" part, because I was actually talking about that time of day in kindergarten when all of the kids had to lay down and sleep for a bit; in other words, a real-live, no-kidding, old-fashioned nap.
Back in the day, most schools had folding mats that were brought out especially for this purpose, which were then re-folded and stacked afterward. The most common type was red on one side, and blue on the other. Why that should matter one whit to anyone is beyond me, but we all had our favorite sides, and it was of vital importance (as I recall) to be laying on one's color of choice. Ah, the major decisions in the life of a five-year-old. ;)
Sorry to lead you on a fruitless search -- that surely wasn't my intention.
AC
Army Chief
06-15-13, 21:56
I think I copy you about nap time, did your mat have a blue side and a red side?
Ha ha, I had not thought of those for a long time!
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner. ;)
AC
Vixen man, it's vixen. :D
Don't feel too badly about not finding any hidden meaning behind the "nap" part, because I was actually talking about that time of day in kindergarten when all of the kids had to lay down and sleep for a bit; in other words, a real-live, no-kidding, old-fashioned nap.
Back in the day, most schools had folding mats that were brought out especially for this purpose, which were then re-folded and stacked afterward. The most common type was red on one side, and blue on the other. Why that should matter one whit to anyone is beyond me, but we all had our favorite sides, and it was of vital importance (as I recall) to be laying on one's color of choice. Ah, the major decisions in the life of a five-year-old. ;)
Sorry to lead you on a fruitless search -- that surely wasn't my intention.
AC
So now you see what I deal with, my I device loves to correct what she wants but leaves me open to look like an ass, I'm sure she laughed her ass off just then. Yes, I blame it on her, if anyone is a snob it's her. Sorry for the derailment. The search was fun, blak1508 fail:D
Another blue-sider
I really do not want to continue to get this topic track but, another blue sider checking in :)..I guess it does show our age if we're from the era where Kindergarden naps were a requirement. Thanks for bringing back some great memories AC.
gesundheit
06-16-13, 00:07
I try to give folks advice on which direction they should go into with the caveat they should only buy something that works for them, and not what some guy on the range (including myself) tells them to buy. I will start acting snobby when I know as much as the many experts on M4C. In other words, never. :D
I'm just thankful that I came across this forum three years ago when I first got serious about the AR. Lurking about the forum for months gave me the opportunity to read quite a bit on what were the manufacturer's you could put your trust in, and those that might cause you to wonder. When the time came to put my money down and pick up that Colt 6920, I didn't have to worry about the "what ifs". I could focus on the "software" and not waste time on wondering if the "hardware" would hold up.
To all the members who put in the time and money to go through their own trial and error process and spent the time informing us newer members on what is "good to go" and what isn't, my sincere thanks. I couldn't have done it without you. :thank_you2:
AC were you a English teacher at some point or a psychological communicator?
The answer is much simpler than that- AC is clearly the wisest of us
Reading the OP made me cringe. I got into the world of AR's through a crappy crappy ... crappy Bushy C-15. I knew nothing about what I bought just simply that it looked cool and went boom. LUCKLY instead of running into a complete snob, a member on here who I know, took compassion on me and gave me a gentle push in the right direction. I.E. what an actual quality rifle is compared to a shitty hobby gun for starters.
While I've come a long way since that time, I still consider myself woefully inadequate when it comes to my knowledge of the AR platform compared to all you fine fellows on here. So my take from all of this is that no matter how much you think you know and how much you want to look down at the poor guy at the range shooting a DPMS thinking its the greatest gun ever, there is always someone who knows a lot more then you do. That keeps my grounded. Instead of focusing on what I know now compared to all the other "less equal" guys out there, I choose to focus on improving my skill with my rifle. I also rest easy at night knowing that since my eyes were opened, I have a couple guns now that are better then most other fools out there .. haha.
Just my two cents.
Army Chief
06-16-13, 07:57
The answer is much simpler than that- AC is clearly the wisest of us
Not at all the case, I assure you. On the other hand, my wife derived an unusual amount of pleasure from the "Psychological Communicator" bit, and has indicated that I should be expecting some new, suitably-inscribed business cards. ;)
AC
The excuse of "budget" for buying a bottom barrel gun just says, " I didn't do my research here before buying." A valid excuse if you were not aware of this forum and relied on the sizzle touted elsewhere. Even at the panic peak a decent mid-level PSA often cost less than a more well known junk brand.
School nap time reminded me that I never knew my kindergarten teachers real name. I called her Miss Tomato.
I'm older than most here. Like my avatar, I actually sat in the corner wearing the Dunce Cap. And wrote thousands of "I will not..." lines on the chalkboard. And had close acquaintance with the 2' long paddle with holes for more aerodynamic swats.
Not at all the case, I assure you...
As you say Sensei, yet your insight continuously impresses and humbles me :ph34r:
Gun Runner
06-16-13, 23:55
Is it just me?
Nope. I often look at various configurations and think, "Are you serious?"
BoringGuy45
06-17-13, 16:54
I think I'm kind of a "snob" with just about any of my hobbies, tools, and toys. I'm admittedly a gear slut and I like to know everything about any equipment I use, it's good points and bad ones, what are some better options, ways I can improve the equipment I have, etc. hence why firearms are a good hobby for me. While I don't think I always need the best of the best of the best equipment, I would rather hold out and have nothing for awhile then spend money on crap. Granted, I have no problem upgrading equipment, but all upgrades should go from good to better IMO; if I'm spending money, I'm spending it only on something that I really want, not on stuff that is supposedly "better than nothing." When it comes to guns, even crappy ARs and AR parts are pretty expensive to me, so for me, I feel that instead of running out and buying a cheap AR just to have one is a waste, when I can spend a little more time saving money and getting something worthwhile.
Its fool-hearty to judge a person by their material possessions. Judge the person by their actions.
I buy good gear the best I can. I don't have the best of everything, but for the things I'm passionate about, I tend to go more high.
I also try to help others. I've found that if you teach them to use what they have, they will come to the conclusions of what gear is good and what gear isn't, simply by using their gear and watching you use yours.
Nothing is more frustrating than people's actions; their unwillingness to learn or the attitude that, based solely on their purchase, they know better than you.
PatrioticDisorder
06-18-13, 11:09
The phrase - "quad rail" makes me cringe
The rest of the stuff I get, but I'm not sure what the issue is with quad rails per se. I love how i can get my hand out far on the rail of my DDM4V1 LW, but maybe I'm an odd ball, I guess it's in the same league as green dots and Tapco. :sarcastic:
To a certain extent you might be. But if you're more upset for the person because someone took advantage of them then obviously you just have a good heart.
I don't have an issue with someone having all kinds of crap on your gun in the safe, but at the range that stuff is absolutely crazy.
Snob isn't the right word. Some people are more educated when it comes to these rifles. To some, it's their first rodeo.
I may be a bit of an AR snob myself but I like to think that I've learned to appreciate the finer models available. ;)
I am only 22 yrs of age and am just learning my way through the vast amount of knowledge out there on this forum and others on this ar15 platform. I wouldn't call myself an AR snob, since I'm still ignorant to things about the weapon system, but I can say I am a firm believer in quality over quantity. And I think that is where "snobs" are misjudged. I saw recently a man with a dpms AR rifle full of $30-$80 accessories claiming to have close to or equal to the high speed stuff we all know. I couldn't help but scoff at him because sure he had an ar15 with all forms of cheap kit and plenty of handguns and rifles but all were low quality. I would have much rather used all the money he spent and purchased a high quality ar15 with quality accessories, MG, or SBR, ect. In conclusion, I think AR snobs are misjudged for those who view Quality> Quantity.
I am only 22 yrs of age and am just learning my way through the vast amount of knowledge out there on this forum and others on this ar15 platform. I wouldn't call myself an AR snob, since I'm still ignorant to things about the weapon system, but I can say I am a firm believer in quality over quantity. And I think that is where "snobs" are misjudged. I saw recently a man with a dpms AR rifle full of $30-$80 accessories claiming to have close to or equal to the high speed stuff we all know. I couldn't help but scoff at him because sure he had an ar15 with all forms of cheap kit and plenty of handguns and rifles but all were low quality. I would have much rather used all the money he spent and purchased a high quality ar15 with quality accessories, MG, or SBR, ect. In conclusion, I think AR snobs are misjudged for those who view Quality> Quantity.
Everything you said is on track. A few days ago I watched a Eotech knockoff fly off a carbine while emptying mags as fast as shooter could fire. Shooter was complaining he just paid $89 for it. Cracked the mount in half...:big_boss:
wetidlerjr
06-24-13, 05:14
I am a "gun snob" (not just ARs) to a certain degree but I try to control my obvious disdain for junk ARs and 1911s so as not to bring on massive butthurt while at the range or LGS. This site has added to my snobbery in no small degree as I am starting to know "what I don't know" about ARs. This site has also helped me to dent my pocketbook but "what the hell" as I need something to do in my retirement.
The phrase - "quad rail" makes me cringe. I shake my head when I see a tapco ****ed AR at the gunshow for $2000, I snicker at the fella with the UTG railed with a green dot sight. Is it just me?
So my Knights Armament quad rail is bad?
PatrioticDisorder
06-24-13, 07:58
So my Knights Armament quad rail is bad?
Even bigger piece of crap than my piece of crap DDM4 rail, especially with the tacticool handstops, who needs that? :lol:
Army Chief
06-24-13, 08:18
So my Knights Armament quad rail is bad?
It's not a quad-rail. It's a RIS/RAS. Whole different ball game. ;)
AC
whiterabbit05
06-24-13, 09:11
I secretly judge and laugh not only at other people's ARs, but their other choices in gear, guns and accessories.
For example: Choosing to use Thunderwear over a Crossbreed to carry a G19 because the latter is "uncomfortable". Whatever works I guess...
:smile:
I secretly judge and laugh not only at other people's ARs, but their other choices in gear, guns and accessories.
:smile:
I don't anymore. The circus guns that people are shooting anymore are so far down Ludus boulevard I just ignore the crap.
Snob isn't the right word. Some people are more educated when it comes to these rifles. To some, it's their first rodeo.
Actually snob works just fine when referencing a firearm enthusiast who's converted from simply being knowledgeable to an arrogant, degrading know it all. There is a distinguishable difference between the two and in fact we've seen such transformations here before with our very eyes. :eek:
But make no mistake, there are also a great deal of arrogant store owners out there who know very little about what really makes one firearm superior to another. Yet if you try to explain to them where they might be off base they look at you like you're an idiot. I've essentially learned to just keep my mouth shut and shop their facilities as needed.
Actually snob works just fine when referencing a firearm enthusiast who's converted from simply being knowledgeable to an arrogant, degrading know it all. There is a distinguishable difference between the two and in fact we've seen such transformations here before with our very eyes. :eek:
We need a chart for that! :lol:
We need a chart for that! :lol:
I will give you some credit, as with all your knowledge and frequent posting I have never witnessed you exceeded 8 out of 10 on the dickhead firearm know-it-all scale.
:D
I will give you some credit, as with all your knowledge and frequent posting I have never witnessed you exceeded 8 out of 10 on the dickhead firearm know-it-all scale.
:D
I definitely don't know it all... but I have a few strong opinions. :p
Also note a couple of my observation s- I am old enough to recall when the only games in town were colt- with odd size pin holes and the screw on uppers, then Olympic and bushmaster. Back then bushmaster was considered top of the line. We have much more choice now and I think even the low end guns are better now than they were back then.
We also tend to have a flavor of the week mentality- what was considered top shelf 20 years ago is considered garbage now. Every time a new quality company comes along they tend to knock someone else off the top of the hill.
Many folks get good service out of entry level ar's for the purposes they use them for. I would not want to shoot my mil issue m4 at camp perry and would probably not choose my camp perry rifle for deployment either.
Also note a couple of my observation s- I am old enough to recall when the only games in town were colt- with odd size pin holes and the screw on uppers, then Olympic and bushmaster.
Yep. I still have some bushmaster uppers. They just won't die.
Army Chief
06-24-13, 10:10
Also note a couple of my observation s- I am old enough to recall when the only games in town were colt- with odd size pin holes and the screw on uppers, then Olympic and bushmaster. Back then bushmaster was considered top of the line ...
... and in those days, "Bushmaster" was still better known as the "Quality Parts Company." At the time, I had one of those oddball Colts, but it was still twice the rifle of any competitor.
AC
It's a different audience here. Where some makers are not highly regarded on m4c, they have an entirely different standing outside of m4c, where users use metrics such as finish and tight upper and lower receiver as gauges by which to judge the quality of an AR.
I've come across couple of these customers. I remember them well, as some were quite close minded.
To be sure, in couple of months when our own receivers become publicly available, they will have very polished and impeccable finish, if only to appease the other camp, but passing the tough m4c approval is one criteria I set out to achieve early on. If we can do well here, we can conquer anything.
Army Chief
06-24-13, 10:45
... when our own receivers become publicly available ...
Clearly, I've been sleeping at the wheel. Is there a separate thread on what you gents are up to with this project?
AC
Littlelebowski
06-24-13, 10:52
It's a different audience here. Where some makers are not highly regarded on m4c, they have an entirely different standing outside of m4c, where users use metrics such as finish and tight upper and lower receiver as gauges by which to judge the quality of an AR.
I've come across couple of these customers. I remember them well, as some were quite close minded.
To be sure, in couple of months when our own receivers become publicly available, they will have very polished and impeccable finish, if only to appease the other camp, but passing the tough m4c approval is one criteria I set out to achieve early on. If we can do well here, we can conquer anything.
Oh man, can't wait.
AC, not yet, as we're still couple of months away, while I've mentioned it in passing, there isn't an announcement or waiting list, both of which will happen when we have a firm ETA.
The 2 months estimate is based on best case outcome of a few variables, some quite beyond our control.
It's not a quad-rail. It's a RIS/RAS. Whole different ball game. ;)
AC
What are the technical differences between RIS/RAS and a quad rail?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Integration_System
Or is this whole thread one big joke?
What are the technical differences between RIS/RAS and a quad rail?
I'm thinking he said that because it's a KAC product & he's jokingly being "a snob".
Sent via Tapatalk
AC, not yet, as we're still couple of months away, while I've mentioned it in passing, there isn't an announcement or waiting list, both of which will happen when we have a firm ETA.
The 2 months estimate is based on best case outcome of a few variables, some quite beyond our control.
Duffy, to prevent derailment of this thread, could you please start another about your lowers so we can ask you silly questions about expected price, pre-orders, etc? Because inquiring minds want to know
The phrase - "quad rail" makes me cringe. I shake my head when I see a tapco ****ed AR at the gunshow for $2000, I snicker at the fella with the UTG railed with a green dot sight. Is it just me?
Tell us what you have that you think is so great so we can snicker at it.
Army Chief
06-24-13, 11:48
What are the technical differences between RIS/RAS and a quad rail?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Integration_System
Or is this whole thread one big joke?
I was largely just infusing a bit of humor into things; though I believe TAPCO used the term "Quad Rail" as part of the actual product name for their Intrafuse rail, whereas it is just a generic term of reference for the category of KAC/DD/Centurion products we would tend to recognize as upper-shelf kit.
When the "cringe" post first appeared, I presumed it was in response to specific TAPCO offerings, and not a negative reaction to railed systems in general. In this, I could be mistaken ... though that really wouldn't make a lot of sense to me.
AC
Army Chief
06-24-13, 11:50
Duffy, to prevent derailment of this thread, could you please start another about your lowers so we can ask you silly questions about expected price, pre-orders, etc? Because inquiring minds want to know
+1 Saved me the trouble. Thanks.
AC
The DPMS rifle I saw was majority TAPCO gear except for the RDS which he mentioned was 80 dollars.
No problem, here it is https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=133594
Thanks for bearing with us gents :)
Tell us what you have that you think is so great so we can snicker at it.
Oh shit here goes:
Noveske 16" basic with 15" NSR - T-1 in a fortis mount. Tapco...er crap mean magpul miad grip- Larue RAT stock.
BCM 14.5 LW upper - DD 9.0 Lite rail (quad like a mofo) DD flash hider blind pinned- miad- B5 sopmod stock. dd1.5 buis
Oh shit here goes:
Noveske 16" basic with 15" NSR - T-1 in a fortis mount. Tapco...er crap mean magpul miad grip- Larue RAT stock.
BCM 14.5 LW upper - DD 9.0 Lite rail (quad like a mofo) DD flash hider blind pinned- miad- B5 sopmod stock. dd1.5 buis
I swear, that 14.5" LW w/ 9" Handguard, SOPMOD Stock, and DD BUIS setup is the most trademark setup of people that spend too much time on this frickin' website. I kid you not. Mine shoots and handles great, I'm sure yours does too.
The snobbery begins when we start telling folks that with match ammo and some practice, we'll outshoot the clowns out there running Tula through their 20" HBAR using some eBay optic.
Oh shit here goes:
Noveske 16" basic with 15" NSR - T-1 in a fortis mount. Tapco...er crap mean magpul miad grip- Larue RAT stock.
BCM 14.5 LW upper - DD 9.0 Lite rail (quad like a mofo) DD flash hider blind pinned- miad- B5 sopmod stock. dd1.5 buis
You're just payin' for names with that stuff.:lol:
fail wagon
06-24-13, 23:47
You're just payin' for names with that stuff.
You're right. Good names, and good products.
I was largely just infusing a bit of humor into things; though I believe TAPCO used the term "Quad Rail" as part of the actual product name for their Intrafuse rail, whereas it is just a generic term of reference for the category of KAC/DD/Centurion products we would tend to recognize as upper-shelf kit.
When the "cringe" post first appeared, I presumed it was in response to specific TAPCO offerings, and not a negative reaction to railed systems in general. In this, I could be mistaken ... though that really wouldn't make a lot of sense to me.
ACGot it.
You're just payin' for names with that stuff.
Lolz!
I swear, that 14.5" LW w/ 9" Handguard, SOPMOD Stock, and DD BUIS setup is the most trademark setup of people that spend too much time on this frickin' website. I kid you not. Mine shoots and handles great, I'm sure yours does too.
The snobbery begins when we start telling folks that with match ammo and some practice, we'll outshoot the clowns out there running Tula through their 20" HBAR using some eBay optic.
Yes it is! I bought the 14.5 because it was the only thing in stock during the madness!
Maybe I should re title this thread:
Am I addicted to buying expensive AR shit?
Maybe I should re title this thread:
Am I addicted to buying expensive AR shit?
After reading everything else...that would be a great title. :lol:
Oh shit here goes:
Noveske 16" basic with 15" NSR - T-1 in a fortis mount. Tapco...er crap mean magpul miad grip- Larue RAT stock.
BCM 14.5 LW upper - DD 9.0 Lite rail (quad like a mofo) DD flash hider blind pinned- miad- B5 sopmod stock. dd1.5 buis
Noveske..LaRue...BCM....:haha:
Someone should talk to this guy;)
Just kidding, but for real, at times I do think to myself If I am going to really need that ACOG or that Micro with Magnifier LaRue combo.. I go back and forth, back and forth and then before I know it, my hair is messed up, I am smoking a cigarette and have that after sex feeling with a receipt in my hand for 1200$. Rationalization, it's for my wife's build so it's OK.
The_crawfish
06-26-13, 23:06
Would this be the thread to ask for help from a newb trying to build his first ar (under 1k)?? :blink:
Not really but I'm no snob :p save an extra 200-300 buy a Colt 6920. Check out Grant at G&Rtactical , get ammo, mags, classes or courses, repeat.
Just an idea but this is GTG..I'd buy a complete if its your first AR.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920MP-B
The_crawfish
06-27-13, 20:17
G&R is out of stock on just about every rifle...i do like that colt though
G&R is out of stock on just about every rifle...i do like that colt though
DD AR's (with a FREE Aimpoint PRO), some S&W AR's, BCM MID-16 and one LE 6940!
C4
SeriousStudent
06-27-13, 21:38
Note to The_crawfish:
Sixteen hundred bucks for a DD middy with an Aimpoint (that you KNOW is real) is a hellofva deal. Throw in another hundred for a Surefire light and mount, and then grab a VCAS sling and some mags for another hundred.
Even with the FFL transfer fees, that's a pretty sweet deal for under two grand. All you need is ammo and training.
I'd jump on that free Aimpoint offer like a fat chick at a wedding buffet.
I'd jump on that free Aimpoint offer like a fat chick at a wedding buffet.
Soooo, you look for fat chicks at wedding buffets. It's all coming together now.:D
The_crawfish
06-27-13, 21:51
no doubt it's a good deal...just don't know if i can talk the wifey into letting me throw that much money down. is this the one?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8047-NS
SeriousStudent
06-27-13, 22:05
Soooo, you look for fat chicks at wedding buffets. It's all coming together now.:D
Tryptophan lulls them into a false sense of security. :p
I do make a point of staying out of their way while doing so, however.
SeriousStudent
06-27-13, 22:07
no doubt it's a good deal...just don't know if i can talk the wifey into letting me throw that much money down. is this the one?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=8047-NS
Here's a direct link the the post:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1681607#post1681607
And as far as the spouse is concerned, tell her it's a good investment. You can always get the carbine now, and then space out the other bits.
Stress the word FREE and Aimpoint. ;)
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