View Full Version : Coupled vs Quad-Stack vs Standard/Modern Mags
Tacti-square
06-13-13, 05:34
Right after I finished my NGA X8 thread I remembered that I wanted to ask about this too. The overwhelming response is going to be normal 30-rounders, I get that, but why?
I know that a coupler is gonna let dirt and grime into the standby mag if you're not using a cover. But if you're not shooting in adverse conditions, what's the downside of increasing your time? Is it the weight being offset?
Quads are a cool concept, especially considering how Surefire's 60s will fit in standard pouches (is this right?). They also don't look much bigger and as far as I know haven't had any issues. Do they feed .300 BLK too?
I think polymer/transparent magazines are the future, but why are we still using 30 rounds? Not saying there's anything wrong with that number, but now that we've worked out the curvature kinks with Stoner's original design maybe it's time to settle on a more modern number that's calculated using several variables? Or is 30 still the best cap in terms of size/weight, speed and prolonged fire?
I've been toying with the idea of just going back to USGI 20s. They're so much more trustworthy. And Mag Grip coupler works without having the bulk and weight of two 30s coupled together.
I'm down to almost no polymer mags. I have some in my guns and on my pack since the covers keep dirt out. But my mag stash is all USGI 20s and 30s.
Tacti-square
06-13-13, 16:56
I'm down to almost no polymer mags. I have some in my guns and on my pack since the covers keep dirt out. But my mag stash is all USGI 20s and 30s.
Why is that? You didn't find anything from Magpul/Lancer/Troy/etc. that performed better than USGI? I find that hard to believe, frankly
I've also had the best luck with 20 round USGI magazines over the years. I still have some black teflon coated Colt 20 rounders that are 15 years old, and they work flawlessly. I wish I could find more of them.
I'm really not certain where to get reliable 20s these days.
Why is that? You didn't find anything from Magpul/Lancer/Troy/etc. that performed better than USGI? I find that hard to believe, frankly
"Come On" Markms a ****in rebel, against the grain type guy...:dirol:
RogerinTPA
06-13-13, 17:51
I have Redi-Mods on all my ARs except one, so if I need a spare at the ready, it's securely available. I have a nice supply of Pmags, Lancers, NHMTG and D&H mags. I used to run the dog shit out of the Pmags when I first started using them in 07, and still use them for classes, but I do gravitate more towards using the USGI type mags with magpul followers during my range sessions.
Markm is probably the most staunch pagan heretic nonconformist AR traditionalist M4C's got going...and I mean that in the nicest possible way.:D
Tacti-square
06-13-13, 22:46
What combination of AR accessories will provide the fastest reload possible? Coupler+BAD lever? Smaller caps?
Why is that? You didn't find anything from Magpul/Lancer/Troy/etc. that performed better than USGI? I find that hard to believe, frankly
In my experience the polymer mags do the same thing as the metal ones except they are larger.
The 20 rounders from NHMTG are light, small and extremely reliable. I'd bet them against a polymer mag any day.
All mags wear out, metal or plastic.
What combination of AR accessories will provide the fastest reload possible? Coupler+BAD lever? Smaller caps?
What does a BAD lever have to do with reloads???
Don't get caught up in the gear. Practice makes a fast reload, not some highspeed low drag CNC doohicky.
RearwardAssist
06-13-13, 23:18
I have seen problems with the surefire 60s getting bound up inside and not feeding at a 2 gun match I go to. To be fair I believe that it is strictly the first run that had the problems and the owner of the mags said he had sent in others and surefire replaced them with the current version that didnt have the issue.
Grand58742
06-13-13, 23:22
What combination of AR accessories will provide the fastest reload possible? Coupler+BAD lever? Smaller caps?
Training + training + training = muscle memory = fast reloads
Saw after I posted Foxtrot said pretty much the same thing. Worth saying again though
I've been toying with the idea of just going back to USGI 20s. They're so much more trustworthy. And Mag Grip coupler works without having the bulk and weight of two 30s coupled together.
I'm down to almost no polymer mags. I have some in my guns and on my pack since the covers keep dirt out. But my mag stash is all USGI 20s and 30s.
Markm, real hipsters use electrical tape to couple the 20 rounders.
Fast reload by a guy in full battle rattle... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx0JzYcwUiY
In my opinion it is highly unlikely that a fast mag change is going to be a game changer for a civilian using an AR. 30 rounds is a bunch of ammo.
Grand58742
06-13-13, 23:48
Right after I finished my NGA X8 thread I remembered that I wanted to ask about this too. The overwhelming response is going to be normal 30-rounders, I get that, but why?
Because that's what's generally cheapest, has the most proven reliability and has the most gear made for it. I can buy 10 D&H aluminum mags or around 8 Magpul or 6 Lancer L5AWM for the price of one Surefire 60 rounder.
I know that a coupler is gonna let dirt and grime into the standby mag if you're not using a cover. But if you're not shooting in adverse conditions, what's the downside of increasing your time? Is it the weight being offset?
Other than teaching potential bad habits? I figure most of the guys on here that use the couplers did not learn on them and learned the old fashioned way of changing mags. They probably use them now for convenience and because they've trained with them over time. But my guess is they are just as fast on reloads without them as they are with because of practice.
You start to learn muscle memory bad habits by always thinking you have that spare mag at the side. Learn the "hard way" first, then start moving up into couplers and side by sides.
Quads are a cool concept, especially considering how Surefire's 60s will fit in standard pouches (is this right?).
No, they are larger and longer than regular pouches.
I think polymer/transparent magazines are the future, but why are we still using 30 rounds?
Higher capacity magazines didn't really get reliable until somewhat recently. Between that and there isn't really a huge calling for higher capacity magazines in the rifleman circles. Generally 30 rounds is a pretty fair amount of ammo to use before having to reload depending on the situation.
And the weight factor. Take your typical M4 issued downrange. Has BUIS, Aimpoint, EOTech or ACOG, typically a white light, PEQ-2 or equivalent system, sometimes a fore grip, rails, NOD, sling...we are talking 10+ lbs when it's all said and done. Now add another pound for an additional 30 rounds of ammo on top of the larger mag.
For automatic riflemen and the newer M27, maybe a higher capacity magazine would benefit, but standard riflemen? 30 is a nice even number. And since civilians typically follow what the .mil is using and the .mil isn't in a huge hurry to replace the millions of 30 rounders they have in stock, the cycle will continue.
Or is 30 still the best cap in terms of size/weight, speed and prolonged fire?
Opinionated answer, but yes.
For my usage a coupler is my choice. I use coupled PMAGs. My rifle is a patrol rifle. I won't always have the opportunity to get a bail out back with reloads. Being able to grab the rifle and have 60 rounds ready to go with a spare mag for solving potential malfunction issues is priceless for me. Things can evolve extremely fast and seconds count, grab and go is the way it happens some times.
As an AR newcomer, I figured the 30 round pmags would be all I'd ever need, so I loaded up on them. However, I did buy two 20 round aluminum mags for use on the bench. With my very limited experience with my AR, I have come to like the 20 round mags better and plan to pick more up as soon as possible.
I like how the rifle handles with the 20 round mags when compared to the 30 round mags. Also, the 20 round mags just seem to feed like butter. I can't quantify it, but they feel and sound smoother for some reason.
As I gain experience I may change my mind (I'd like to take a class and I shoot my AR as much as possible). But, I can't see myself ever wanting to run anything larger than a 30 round magazine unless I have a specific need for higher capacity (shooting games?).
I typically have only used 30 and 20 round mags. 30 for training and 20 for sighting in off the bench. Although I do keep a pair of 30 round pmags coupled and in my rifle for HD, as another member said its difficult to carry extra mags in "sleepwear".
I've also had the best luck with 20 round USGI magazines over the years. I still have some black teflon coated Colt 20 rounders that are 15 years old, and they work flawlessly. I wish I could find more of them.
I'm really not certain where to get reliable 20s these days.
Imagine that. The rifle runs best with the magazines it was originally designed for.
Here they are. The real deal.
http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_20_ar15_magazine/223_ar15_magazines
Tried the whole ghetto-ductape-coupled magazine thing in Iraq, and FWIW, it did work and could change mags quickly to a point, but it became more a pain in the ass I found out. In addition to the extra weight and cumbersome bulk (while in body armor + gear + 125 degrees pretty much most of the day), I started getting nervous about loosing the extra mag or busting it up accidentally while moving around.
While not having any experience with commercial couplers or Redi Mag, I trust my gut instinct in that the convenience is outweighed in the end by the drawbacks in a real world longterm tactical situation.
At the range or class? Sure, they help (therein lies clever marketing;)), but I don't want to train with equipment that in the long run I'll ditch when it really counts.
Berserkr556
06-15-13, 15:41
I prefer to keep it simple so I don't use any type of mag coupler. I also prefer to practice mag change drills and can almost do them in my sleep. My favorite mags are 30 round Pmags. I've tried all the other AR mags but came back to the Pmag because it works best for me not to mention they are a quality mag. I think 30 rounds in a carbine/rifle is the perfect number. More than 30 rds. adds bulk and weight which isn't needed. With proper practice you can reload pretty quick if need be.
I typically have only used 30 and 20 round mags. 30 for training and 20 for sighting in off the bench. Although I do keep a pair of 30 round pmags coupled and in my rifle for HD, as another member said its difficult to carry extra mags in "sleepwear".
Keep an extra 20rd mag in your PJ pockets :D
Just my .02.
I tried a couple of different couplers with both 20s and 30 s, metal and plastic mags. I didn't like the effect on weapon's balance and also increased snag and bump points. Back to single mags.
I tried the BAD lever on 2 different rifles, one with typical Colt M4 set-up, the other a pseudo Mk12 Mod 0, with two-stage trigger. I didn't like the extra protrusion inside the trigger guard, especially when wearing gloves. I also didn't find any real added value to changing the way I've released the bolt for about a million years of AR platform use. Other than doing some type of admin task, I would find myself either thumbing or slapping the ping pong paddle anyway. BAD levers thrown into the parts drawers.
Again, this is just my opinion, but let's be perfectly honest here. In most civilian and LE use of the AR platform, a single 20 round magazine will be all that you need to solve the problem. Think about it. 20 rounds is more than almost all pistol mags. The basic 5.56 caliber is more efficient than pistol calibers. 20 rounds are a lot of rounds to "own" in a civilian or OIS. So, I've moved to owning / using more 20's. yes there are circumstances where a LEO might need more than a single 20. Perhaps at another Columbine (multi-shooters AS/RMM) maybe. Another North Hollywood shoot-out, probably. And yes, if I were back pushing a scout car around a metro area or back on Tac, I would carry multiple AR mags. Just food for thought.
As others have already advised. Start with the basics, learn proper movements, practice for smoothness, repeat, repeat, repeat to build muscle memory, speed will come.
Why is that? You didn't find anything from Magpul/Lancer/Troy/etc. that performed better than USGI? I find that hard to believe, frankly
Plenty of former been there, done that's that prefer GI mags. Been slowly working my way to all GI mags myself.
Why is that? You didn't find anything from Magpul/Lancer/Troy/etc. that performed better than USGI? I find that hard to believe, frankly
Then you haven't been paying attention
Plastic mags take up more space and are slower coming out of mag pouches and going into and out of your gun.
They are no more reliable than usgi aluminum.
Plastic also goes brittle over time. I need to be able to take mags out of storage in 30 years and use them.
They are also not NATO compliant.
My lane is a full time LEO in a mid sized city. Full time patrol, part time SWAT. So take that for what its worth.
Mag type
My preference these days is for 30 rounders, metal, plastic, wood, as long as they're reliable (I've tested them) and have a proven track record(others have tested them), I'm willing to use them. I'm about 50/50 between PMAGs and USGIs. Depends on what's in stock when I buy. I also have a good stockpile of 20s, which I prefer for my SPR; for some reason, my SPR also prefers them.
Capacity
I like 30s. They let me monopod for a slight advantage, and cost less($, weight, rail estate) than a bipod that would do the same. I also find the 30s easier to pull from pouches and reload- I prefer a beer can grip, which I find hard with 20s. I completely agree that, from a pure round-count perspective, I'd be fine with 20s.
Surefire mags
I own 2. I've found them to be reliable enough to carry, but I know that many others, whose ops are blacker and more frequent than mine, have the opposite experience. Having said that, I experimented with carrying a Surefire 60 on duty. I don't know; I think its a bit much in terms of weight and cost. They're pretty much relegated to range duty now.
Couplers
Not a fan. Several of my team mates have used them, and I've watched the top round on the spare drift far forward enough to effect the reload. Also, if you have to perform remedial action, or otherwise dump the inserted mag, you lose your reload as well. If you can pick it up, great, but if you're in a spot where your mag would be lost or heavily fouled by dropping it, or if you're forced to move from your spot, you might not have the option. This is also a problem if you use a 60 round mag, and you don't have a spare, thinking of the extra 30 as your reload.
I sold my Redi-mod. I regret it. Absent the monopod capability, I thought that carrying 2 20s in a redimod was a pretty slick setup. Not very lefty friendly, if that's a concern for you. Not cheap either.
My solution has been to carry a 30 rounder in the gun, with a 30 rounder as a reload. On patrol, I grab one from my door pocket or my plates (If I'm not grabbing them, too). On SWAT, my primary reload is on my belt, at 9:00. I've been experimenting with scalable loadouts, but this will always be where my emergency reload is parked.
Oh, yeah, practice practice, practice. These days, I've been spending more time behind the line, passing the torch, as opposed to actually shooting. But, at a recent SWAT course, I was still faster off the belt that some of the other guys who were using couplers. Practice is key; there's no substitute. Get some quality training, too.
My opinion and experience only. For some it might help. For others, it may be worth exactly what you paid for it.
Imagine that. The rifle runs best with the magazines it was originally designed for.
Here they are. The real deal.
http://www.44mag.com/product/nhmtg_20_ar15_magazine/223_ar15_magazines
These are the ones I use in Highpower matches. Easy for prone and drop free super easy. The pmag20s did not drop free empty.
I sold my Redi-mod. I regret it. Absent the monopod capability, I thought that carrying 2 20s in a redimod was a pretty slick setup. Not very lefty friendly, if that's a concern for you. Not cheap either.
Using it conjunction with the BAD you'd be surprised how fast you can reload left handed. As follows--picture a beer can grip but with your thumb pointed 45 degrees towards you. This finger/thumb orientation will be used for dropping primary mag, releasing secondary mag, and then inserting that secondary into the mag well.
-Wrap fingers around mag while the thumb depresses the mag release
-Drop mag
-With your fingers and thumb in the same position as starting off in, come under the gun and hit the Redi-Mag release after grabbing the mag with your fingers. Come back under, insert mag and (thumb still extended at about 45 degrees towards your body) your thumb is in perfect position to hit the BAD lever.
They are expensive but you can get a gen2 Redi-Mag for about $80 and do the Redi-Mod lightening cuts yourself. Have 3. A Gen 2 I cut myself, a Redi-Mod, and the new aluminum one.
Another good thing about them is that they make a very stable monopod to shoot from during prone shooting. Twice the contact area hitting the ground as a standard mag.
They do have their drawbacks. More weight, more money, take up more space, and require more training time to be proficient but this is one piece of gear that'll be on all my AR's for quite some time.
-Jax
Thanks for the heads up, jaxman. I hadn't thought about using the BAD that way to make the setup more lefty friendly. I'm not a lefty, but I do train support side a lot, and I train southpaws frequently, so I'll keep that in my toolbox.
I used the Redimod/BAD combo as a righty, and liked it, if not for the weight and cost. Thanks for the different perspective!
Thanks for the heads up, jaxman. I hadn't thought about using the BAD that way to make the setup more lefty friendly. I'm not a lefty, but I do train support side a lot, and I train southpaws frequently, so I'll keep that in my toolbox.
!
Ditto, to jaxman about the BAD use for a lefty. As I stated, I decided for multiple reasons, including my already deeply ingrained method of bolt release, it wasn't for me. But it could be for a wrong handed shooter, one that can add new tricks.
Part of the good stuff of M4Cnet is picking up additional information from other points of view.
glockshooter
06-16-13, 13:17
I have found metal mags to be way more like to become damaged and not work properly than polymer mags. I have found pmags to be more feed reliable than metal mags. I have seen both types break and have problems though. I would think that lancer mags would be the best of both worlds.
Matt
Pmags for me are WAY easier to load. I always have problems with loading metal mags and the rounds don't want to go and stay all the way back.
They also go into the magwell easier, since there's no metal on metal contact.
As far as modern polymer getting brittle over time, we will have to find out in 40 years.
I had a coupler once and didn't like the extra weight. I think Chameleox hit it on the head with his thoughts on remedial action. In the case of a double feed that coupled mag is going to be hard to deal with unless you have a dump pouch (I don't use one on patrol). I run a 30 in the M-4 at work with a 30 on my vest as a backup. My agency issues out USGI mags (only loaded to 25 for some reason?) from the armory.... I run P-mags off duty and have had no issues with either of them. My work involves a lot more running than gunning and 60 rounds on the gun with the crappy web slings on he pool guns in the brush would not be fun to deal with. M-4's bounce around a lot when your at a sprint and I really don't think extra weight would help. My primary reload (I use a beer can grip) is on my vest in a BFG 10 speed double (the 2nd pouch usually has extra quick cuffs in it) and with the rifle aimed in that mag is pretty close by.... I prefer reloading from the belt but my batbelt is pretty full up with other gear. I figure 60 (or 50?) rounds for the long gun is pretty sufficient to deal with most stuff. If I burn threw that I'm using my sidearm with 3 extra reloads to bug out....
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