View Full Version : Advice needed.
Thanks to all who share their professional knowledge on this board. It is really nice to find a place with good real world info. Which brings my question to this board and not TOS.
I work for a local S.O and recently purchased an AR from someone who came highly recommended. I did some checking and went with this guy because he said he uses "all mil spec" and offers a lifetime warranty. So I took the plunge. I have put about 350 rds through the AR without incident. Even a few strings of cover fire. I have had no problems as of yet and neither have any of the other guys I know who have purchased from him. While cleaning the other day I removed the B.U.I.S and there it was the RRA logo on the upper. I was under the impression that RRA is comerical and not mil spec. I asked for a 1/7 twist in 5.56 with chrome lined. The barrel does not have any stampings other than by the castle nut or d ring under the hand guards. The stampings read 205c or c 205 and their is a stray m under the markings. It also appears that the AR15 BCG is also RRA. It does have the shrouded firing pin and a black insert but I think its RRA because of the square marks on the attempted carrier staking. I am pretty sure the lower is mil spec.
Now you know as much as I do.....Should I:
a)Take it back and say WTF?
b)Sell the upper try to recoup some cash and buy a mil spec upper?
c) replace the BCG with BCM or LMT? Will those work in a commerical uppper?
d)send the BCG out to be properly staked and have a crane or defender installed with a MP tested bolt?
e)If it aint broke don't fix it and wait till my 3 day class in June don't clean it for 3 days and keep it well lubed and see if it will hold up?
We use 55 gr federal xm193 for practice and carry the new Speer 62gr. for duty.
I am on patrol and do not use this AR on a team.
Mods I am not sure if this is the best place for this post or not, if not feel free to move to the tech section.
Thanks to all who reply, stay safe, and Simper Fi.
I would be diplomatic about it. Take it back and seek clarification on everything. Ask about each component and have your own information available to prove or disprove his claims. Don't forget the receiver extension.
Look at the threads in here that show the m4 ramps, bolt staking, etc.
If you feel you where taken and he's blowing smoke saying things such as "this is what xyz carries" or other such statements, get a refund.
Mark
I have been reading everything on this site. It looks like the barrel has M4 cuts but not the upper. Maybe they were "added".
I have been reading everything on this site. It looks like the barrel has M4 cuts but not the upper. Maybe they were "added".
Pics?
RRA barrel chart says that code 205 (no "c" listed) should be a chrome lined light-weight R4 (M4) profile in 1/7 twist. A wylde chamber, almost certainly, not 5.56. Let's hear more about the lower.
There are worse to have, and what you have can be serviceable.
I think I may know who you are talking about and if Im right then honestly it doesnt surprise me in the least. There is a manufacturer in Central Florida who I checked out. I tried communicating by email and he said to come by a gun show and ask him in person, not over the internet. So I figured what the heck, why not. When I started asking pointed questions about his rifles he seemed to get a bit defensive. Mind you I was very polite but I wanted some specific technical data before I made my purchase. I got a lot of hemming and hawing but not a lot of answers. When I asked who supplied his uppers, barrels, and lowers he said he would not tell me because he wanted to protect his suppliers. That right there threw up a bunch of red flags for me. So if we are talking about the same place it seems like you kinda confirmed my thoughts / suspicions.
I'd take it back if you feel he misrepresented the rifle. It may run fine, but it is not what he was advertising or what you thought you were buying.
Ditto what Skin-top said.
I would ask him WTF.
But the upper receiver should be fine. The barrel is 1x7 chrome-lined. It sounds as if you have the rifle already zeroed, so it doesn't seem as if the inclusion or ommision of an F marked FSB has effected you. I would restake the carrier myself (it's not hard), and maybe look into a Bravo Co, or LMT MPI bolt with proper extractor upgrades. Check the receiver extension to see if it's milspec and make sure the castle nut is staked. I think RRA lower parts are pretty GTG, as would be the lower receiver.
It ain't the end of the world, but I'd be pissed.
-RD62
I'd take it back if you feel he misrepresented the rifle. It may run fine, but it is not what he was advertising or what you thought you were buying.
I agree. I would take it back as it sounds like the trust is gone.
The more I look at it the more I think it is A RRA barrel. Maybe the M isn't a M but a W for Wylde chamber. I just took some pics, who does online pic hosting? Photobucket? I tried to take pics of the barrel roll marks if you will but they are blocked by the gas tube. He is the one who told me everything is mil spec, I think I may have told him I wanted a 1/7 5.56 with chrome and m4 ramps. So if it is a RRA barrel with a Wylde chamber will I be ok if I shoot fed xm193 and the new speer 62 gr.? Looks like I can forget about the 75 gr tap for home use.
well see how this works..
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1193.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1192.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1191.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1188.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1187.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1183.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1182.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1177.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1176.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1169.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1162.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1161.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1160.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1159.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1158.jpg
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll4/LawDog_02/1157.jpg
Nice ramps but AWFUL key staking.
Take it back, be polite, explain why you know it's not mil-spec or not what you thought you were getting. Like Mark said, first ask him again what the specs are, don't put words in his mouth or let him just agree or disagree.
After that, you can discuss the points you are not happy about and then see what he'll do. Hopefully he'll take it back. Even though it's serviceable and it's not that God awful, the guy doesn't deserve to keep your money if he was dishonest, period. The more people accept his BS and furthermore, the more that KNOW he's full of it and still back down or keep the rifles the more willing he'll be to go further with his deceit in the future.
Good Luck.
Oh, looks like someone's been playing with the barrel nut too. Those scrapes and scratches in front of it look like he's been slipping a barrel wrench over that portion of the barrel or scraping something across it.
Looks like a fairly typical RRA upper.
Is the lower a RRA? What trigger group do you have?
What'd you pay?
Should it matter that I put 300 rds through it?
RogerinTPA
04-07-08, 20:03
Be tactful, but take it back and ask him what he knows about what he considers milspec as opposed to "what he heard". Putting 300 rounds through it is not a big deal for most of us on here but a lot of people will consider it a used weapon, including the guy who sold it to you, which probably won't go in your favor. If he won't take it back, sell it or it will probably be cheaper to fix or replace the substandard parts and have a decent clone. You can consult Grant at G&R Tactical, who's known for his quality work and send it to him to do the fixin' at a good rate. Then you'll have a pretty good servicable weapon.
FWIW, I would never buy an AR from a gunshop or gun show if I didn't know the specs myself and the type of AR I wanted. My first AR was a neutered Colt A2 20' Sporter purchased in the mid 90's, but after doing massive research, I upgraded it with purchases on the net and converted it to a 16'midlength from Sabre Defense and bought my second AR, a Colt 6920, on the net as well. You can always find reasonable prices without leaving your living room or having to deal with uninformed gunshop owners trying to convince you that an over priced Stag, RRA or BM rifle is "Milspec" and"Just as good as" a Colt.
Good luck
I don't know what the lower is....it as well is supposed to be mil spec. He buys them open label and puts his logo on them. They are supposed to be billet lowers???? It appears the upper had to be trimmed around the rear take down hole? to fit in the lower. The LPK is single stage. I know he also does stuff with CMT parts. Maybe its a CMT lower and LPK??? The stock is also RRA. Can you put a commerical tube and stock on a mil spec lower?
The receiver extension and stock is definately commercial.
I don't know what he "built" as it looks like off-the-shelf RRA to me. From what I can see of the pics, it definately doesn't appear to be a billet lower. Looks like typcial forged, not that that's bad. Are there no roll marks on the lower? Shots of the side of the magwell?
-RD62
The sides have his logo on them and my EGA...OOOHHH RRRAAHHH. lol I am looking on RRA site and it is starting to look like its an entry tactical. They do make an R4 barrel that is 5.56 and a forged upper in a flat top with M4 cuts??? Maybe the lower is a LAR open label that he puts his logo on???
Sorry I had to work the past few days. I pretty much drove to every fun shop in central Fl and have discovered I wasted a lot of money on gas. If anyone knows of a good place Im all ears. Most of the folks I talked to said RRA is mil spec citing the DEA has a contract with RRA. You should have seen the look on their faces when I asked which branch of the military they were under.
Anyhow the last stop I made was back to the people I bought the gun from. I actually talked to one of the guys who puts the guns together. He knew exactly what I was talking about. He then told me they have already ordered the moacks tool and extractor upgrade kits. They are going to do the work an upgrades for free. They are even goin to let me swap for a M-16 carrier.
The barrel is in fact a wilson R4 lightweight 1/7 in 5.56 chrome lined.
So in short these guys don't carry LMT, Colt, or any of the other Big names. So here is my plan. I will go back and let them do what they said. I will keep the RRA knowing what I have and its limits. I think its better to have the RRA than nothing. I will have to start hitting the off duty gigs and start saving up for a mil spec upper.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Stay safe.
Sounds to me like you are going to have a nice rifle when all is said and done. Too bad they can't order an LMT extension and stock for you in hopes of reselling the commercial parts to another customer later on who wants one on their rifle and doesn't care.
It will only limit you from getting a few stocks. You still have plenty of choices if you ever want to upgrade.
RogerinTPA
04-10-08, 17:46
Good on you Lawdog. I'm glad these guys are willing to fix the staking and add the extractor upgrade and M-16 carrier for free. :cool: That's something I didn't expect. Sounds like you'll have a pretty decent shoot stick after all. If it turns out not to be a real M-16 carrier (MPI tested), you can always shoot it until it fails and get a "full auto" bolt carrier group from Bravo Company and other online shops. I'm upgrading both of mine to FA carriers. Oh, as for the LMT Stock, I got mine from Denny's. They are pretty costly but well worth it. Remember to lube...Good Shooting!
Sorry I had to work the past few days. I pretty much drove to every fun shop in central Fl and have discovered I wasted a lot of money on gas. If anyone knows of a good place Im all ears. Most of the folks I talked to said RRA is mil spec citing the DEA has a contract with RRA. You should have seen the look on their faces when I asked which branch of the military they were under.
Anyhow the last stop I made was back to the people I bought the gun from. I actually talked to one of the guys who puts the guns together. He knew exactly what I was talking about. He then told me they have already ordered the moacks tool and extractor upgrade kits. They are going to do the work an upgrades for free. They are even goin to let me swap for a M-16 carrier.
The barrel is in fact a wilson R4 lightweight 1/7 in 5.56 chrome lined.
So in short these guys don't carry LMT, Colt, or any of the other Big names. So here is my plan. I will go back and let them do what they said. I will keep the RRA knowing what I have and its limits. I think its better to have the RRA than nothing. I will have to start hitting the off duty gigs and start saving up for a mil spec upper.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Stay safe.
Sorry I had to work the past few days. I pretty much drove to every fun shop in central Fl and have discovered I wasted a lot of money on gas. If anyone knows of a good place Im all ears. Most of the folks I talked to said RRA is mil spec citing the DEA has a contract with RRA. You should have seen the look on their faces when I asked which branch of the military they were under.
Anyhow the last stop I made was back to the people I bought the gun from. I actually talked to one of the guys who puts the guns together. He knew exactly what I was talking about. He then told me they have already ordered the moacks tool and extractor upgrade kits. They are going to do the work an upgrades for free. They are even goin to let me swap for a M-16 carrier.
The barrel is in fact a wilson R4 lightweight 1/7 in 5.56 chrome lined.
So in short these guys don't carry LMT, Colt, or any of the other Big names. So here is my plan. I will go back and let them do what they said. I will keep the RRA knowing what I have and its limits. I think its better to have the RRA than nothing. I will have to start hitting the off duty gigs and start saving up for a mil spec upper.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Stay safe.
Here is another option for you. If you have the money and the time and want another AR, the weekend of the 19th are the gun shows in Lakeland and Tampa. The Lakeland show would be the one I hit first. Its supposed to be the best one around. If you cant find what you are looking for over there, then I'd suggest you hit the Tampa show on Sunday.
Ok quick question...how can you tell the difference between an M-16 carrier and an AR carrier? Did someone cover this some where on the board in the past?
Here is another option for you. If you have the money and the time and want another AR, the weekend of the 19th are the gun shows in Lakeland and Tampa. The Lakeland show would be the one I hit first. Its supposed to be the best one around. If you cant find what you are looking for over there, then I'd suggest you hit the Tampa show on Sunday.
I'd skip the Tampa Gun Show and just hit the Lakeland one. The Tampa show doesn't have very much, and has been getting worse and worse in the prices of their offerings. Oh, and the Lakeland one puts you nearer the original Hooters (the evening crew is preferable, though). ;)
-B
Not enough cash in hand yet. I have to hook up a few off duy gigs first. Is the Lakeland show better than the Orlando show?
I'd skip the Tampa Gun Show and just hit the Lakeland one. The Tampa show doesn't have very much, and has been getting worse and worse in the prices of their offerings. Oh, and the Lakeland one puts you nearer the original Hooters (the evening crew is preferable, though). ;)
-B
True. But I did suggest the Tampa show in case he didn't find what he was looking for. But the Tampa show puts you closer to the original hooters in Clearwater (between McMullen Booth and US 19 on Gulf To Bay) ;)
Not enough cash in hand yet. I have to hook up a few off duy gigs first. Is the Lakeland show better than the Orlando show?
The lakeland show is not associated with Sun Coast Gun Shows. The lakeland show is supposed to be the grand-pooh-bah of shows in Florida. Having never been there I cant say, but enough folks have made that comment that Im willing to believe it for now.
Sorry I had to work the past few days. I pretty much drove to every fun shop in central Fl and have discovered I wasted a lot of money on gas. If anyone knows of a good place Im all ears. Most of the folks I talked to said RRA is mil spec citing the DEA has a contract with RRA. You should have seen the look on their faces when I asked which branch of the military they were under.
Anyhow the last stop I made was back to the people I bought the gun from. I actually talked to one of the guys who puts the guns together. He knew exactly what I was talking about. He then told me they have already ordered the moacks tool and extractor upgrade kits. They are going to do the work an upgrades for free. They are even goin to let me swap for a M-16 carrier.
The barrel is in fact a wilson R4 lightweight 1/7 in 5.56 chrome lined.
So in short these guys don't carry LMT, Colt, or any of the other Big names. So here is my plan. I will go back and let them do what they said. I will keep the RRA knowing what I have and its limits. I think its better to have the RRA than nothing. I will have to start hitting the off duty gigs and start saving up for a mil spec upper.
Thanks again for everyone's help.
Stay safe.
After that, stake the castle nut, slap an h-buffer in there and keep an extra bolt on hand, you will be good to go (that's what I learned here anyway :).
I think RRA lowers have a two stage match trigger. You will definitely notice a difference if you get your hands on a mil-spec trigger.
RogerinTPA
04-11-08, 19:21
Oh, and the Lakeland one puts you nearer the original Hooters (the evening crew is preferable, though). ;) -B
Sorry Bubba, but the Original Hooters is on "Gulf to Bay" in Clearwater! You call yourself a Floridian and don't even know your Hooter's history. Read the back of any menu! If you hit US19, you've gone too far!;)
Hateful lies...
But my Google-Fu says you guys are right. I'm ashamed. I might have to give up my Florida card... :o
On-topic though, the Tampa gun show has, lately, become more of an event to both show off new things, to rip people who don't have a C&R license off, and to amp up the "The Democrats are coming! Buy 'em now!" mania. :rolleyes: In the Lakeland gun show, I've actually seen decent prices.
-B
RogerinTPA
04-12-08, 10:41
Hateful lies...
But my Google-Fu says you guys are right. I'm ashamed. I might have to give up my Florida card... :o
On-topic though, the Tampa gun show has, lately, become more of an event to both show off new things, to rip people who don't have a C&R license off, and to amp up the "The Democrats are coming! Buy 'em now!" mania. :rolleyes: In the Lakeland gun show, I've actually seen decent prices.
-B
The only thing I've been impressed with at fun shows is the variety of delicious beef jerky and the over weight commando wanna be's with their cool cammo duds..:rolleyes:
I would return the rifle, politely explaining that you were led to belive it was "mil-spec" when it clearly is not, take your money, and buy what you want from someone like Colt or Noveske or any other company you may be partial to/trust.
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