View Full Version : Setting up my new upper: Noobish questions
Hey guys and gals, I'm new here and really new to ARs (but have been shooting a while, just mostly pistols due to range constraints) and need some advice on how to set up my new upper.
I just sold my PSA M4 premium carbine-length and got into the PSA "Mid-Heavy" (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/complete-uppers/psa-mid-heavy-ss12g2-premium-16-cmv-cl-stripped-railed-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html).
I'm only going to have 1 rifle for a while, as I'm usually "broker than the 10 Commandments" and I figured this would be a better upper at equal cost (I sold the M4P for enough to buy the Mid and kept the BCG and handle).
The purpose for this rifle is Home Defense and engagements out to 200 yds (Suburbs).
One of the reasons I chose the 'Mid-Heavy' was the longer rail. I have long (knuckle-dragging) arms and the carbine-length just didn't let me get far enough out on the rifle to shoot comfortably. Now I have a *ton* more rail and need some advice on how to set it up for my intended usage.
I don't have enough $$$ to set it all up at once, so it's probably going to go BUIS>Sling>Light>Optic. For BUIS, it's probably going to be Magpul MBUS just for value (and faster purchase of the rest). I like the look of the VCAS sling, maybe even padded for when I can take classes. I'm completely open to other suggestions in the same price-range if I'm wrong.
The weapon light is where I think I need some advice. I like the look of the Inforce WML HSP. I was set to mount it on the left side when I got it but then read this (http://www.thebangswitch.com/economical-weapon-lights/) on the Military Arms Blog page. He actually uses the APL, mounted 12 o-clock, in front of his A2 fsb. He also said he prefers pistol lights and that he previously had an Insight M3 there. Finally, I get to the questions!
1. Is 12 o-clock the best mounting position for a WML (of any brand)?
2. Thoughts on running a light in front of my BUFS? Would it be the same as running in front of an A2 FSB? Would it obscure optics when I add one or is the MBUS FS the same height as the A2? Would the longer sight radius be more beneficial than the 12 o-clock mount?
3. Should I run a pistol light (APL, M3, TlrHD) or just go with the WML/HSP?
I know that's a lot to ask in one post, but I figured this was the place to ask. I know the answer for many will be Surefire>ALL, but I just don't have the $$$ and am not "in the sandbox".
Thanks!
Jon
Okay, 1st or one of the first replies.
Welcome to M4Cnet. Welcome to the AR platform.
I'm not familiar with the PSA Mid Heavy, so I will skip the specific questions and go to the Inforce weapons light.
I have one mounted on my Colt 6940 in the Thorntail mount. It's mounted about 11:00-11:30 and lays alongside my folding front sight. It doesn't interfere with sights or optics and I can easily reach press switch with my thumb, usually without having to reposition it at all.
12:00 is good if doesn't interfere and if can be reached.
Go to youtube and look for Travis Haley 's video on light discipline and use indoors and out. Good explanations and comparasion s.
Once again, welcome.
I like my light at 12. The only advice I have for you is that if you're only going to 200 yds you have no need for a scope and will probably end up with an aimpoint or similar.
So you will have no need for the magpul folding sights. Get a good set of fixed sights like daniel defense for the same price and when you get your red dot get a lower 1/3 cowitness mount with it.
My answer regardless is going to be a surefire. The lights you mentioned are around $100-$130. I just picked up my standard Surefire x300 on EE here for $160 shipped. Even brand new x300's can be found under $200. I love my x300 at 12 o'clock.
Optics, don't worry about a scope for 200yds. A red dot will do just fine. Best bang for the buck is going to be an aimpoint pro. Other than that you cannot go wrong with aimpoint or even the new XPS series of Eotech. However an aimpoint will make a bit more sense for HD mainly because of battery life.
BUIS, I'm a fan of DD fixed sights. Metal construction and no need to flip up when you need them. I like them so much I often take my optic off and use them.
I think what you are going to hear most is get ammo and train.
Skill>Equipment
One quick use of the search button would reveal this.
Thanks guys, the DD fixed sights look to be tall enough to mount an Inforce APL in front.
I wasn't even going to even ask yet, but for optics I was thinking a 1-4x like the Leatherwood CMR sounded pretty good.
While the distances I'm planning for are 1-200 yds, the upper I'm getting is more DMR-ish (but w/a 16" barrel instead of 18-20").
I would like to get out farther, I just don't see it as my most pressing "need".
Can I ask that much from 1 AR?
Also, just to answer, I'm trying to scrimp as much as I can to get into training as soon as possible. I can't explain how tight my funds are right now, but training is the ultimate goal. It's a hard balance between "Meet all reqs asap" and "Buy once/cry once". Especially when I don't know what I don't know.
Thanks guys, the DD fixed sights look to be tall enough to mount an Inforce APL in front.
I wasn't even going to even ask yet, but for optics I was thinking a 1-4x like the Leatherwood CMR sounded pretty good.
While the distances I'm planning for are 1-200 yds, the upper I'm getting is more DMR-ish (but w/a 16" barrel instead of 18-20").
I would like to get out farther, I just don't see it as my most pressing "need".
Can I ask that much from 1 AR?
Also, just to answer, I'm trying to scrimp as much as I can to get into training as soon as possible. I can't explain how tight my funds are right now, but training is the ultimate goal. It's a hard balance between "Meet all reqs asap" and "Buy once/cry once". Especially when I don't know what I don't know.
Leatherwood cmr 1-4x is ok if that's what you want. Not quite as fast on target for me as an aimpoint or eotech but a good compromise if you want magnification.
If you decide that's what you want send me a pm. I have one laying around here in a mount I'm not using. If you decide you want it I'll figure out how much I need for it.
If you go with a 1-4x scope you will want the folding front and rear sights.
Sounds like you're wanting to set up a recce rifle.
polymorpheous
06-19-13, 07:07
I personally would choose the Daniel Defense sights for the value.
They can be picked up cheap on the marketplaces on various boards.
The VCAS is the best sling out there in my opinion.
No worries there.
Skip the 1-4x for defensive purposes.
Buy the Aimpoint PRO for the best value.
Lights are subjective.
Some like the weapon mounted lights like the X300, some like the hand held lights mounted at whatever position works for them.
The options you're weighing are good ones as far as lights are concerned.
How many magazines do you have?
How much ammo do you have?
polymorpheous
06-19-13, 07:07
Sounds like you're wanting to set up a recce rifle.
A poor choice for home defense.
A poor choice for home defense.
True, sounds like he wants some sort of compromise unit. The carbine he had before would have been fine for home defense. If I need to defend myself at home with an ar I'll grab my ddv1 carbine, it's the only rifle I own with a light on it. The other ar's with 1-4x's, 5.5-20x, and other stuff are for other things. Mainly for fun and because I like to build rifles.
I'm going to agree.
A poor choice for home defense.
To be honest I'd skip an optic right now. Get irons on it and a light. Then go buy ammo, mags, and training.
Add a sling when you can. The optic can come later.
That's my advice if funds are what they are. The equipment exchange here is a great place to pickup stuff.
1. Is 12 o-clock the best mounting position for a WML (of any brand)?
I prefer 12:00. Lots of other people here do too. Is it the best? Depends on whether or not you can activate your light with either hand if you switch shoulders, and how much a 12:00 position would compromise your support grip vs any other mounting solution. 12:00 also projects the barrel's shadow downwards. The amount of barrel you have in front of your lens(ie, shorter barrel or longer rail) is a factor in how much this will affect you.
2. Thoughts on running a light in front of my BUFS? Would it be the same as running in front of an A2 FSB? Would it obscure optics when I add one or is the MBUS FS the same height as the A2? Would the longer sight radius be more beneficial than the 12 o-clock mount?Its almost the same as running it in front of the A2 FSB. Again, it depends on where you put the front sight. With a magnified optic, your focus will be farther forward of the front sight and light, so you'll barely notice it at worst, and likely won't notice it. With a red dot, it honestly depends. The height at which you mount the optic, in order to clear a fixed front sight or a 12:00 weapon light, will certainly affect this. Personal example: my H1 is mounted high (lower 1/3rd co-witness). I can see my front sight (fixed DD/tritium) in the bottom of the optic window, as well as a decent amount of my light (Streamlight TLR HD). Its not enough to bother me, but it took a little getting used to after using an offset mount. A longer sight radius is nice, but it doesn't offset the need for an easily activated weapon light for a gun used for personal defense, IMHO.
3. Should I run a pistol light (APL, M3, TlrHD) or just go with the WML/HSP?
If the pistol lights you're looking at have enough of a spread to pick up objects in your periphery, and enough throw to illuminate targets farther out then it should work fine. For the most part, pistol lights work fine as long gun lights. The Surefire X-series and the Streamlight line have been used on long guns for a while.
I know that's a lot to ask in one post, but I figured this was the place to ask. I know the answer for many will be Surefire>ALL, but I just don't have the $$$ and am not "in the sandbox".That one moment when you may have to defend yourself with this rifle is your "sandbox". In that instant, you share the same threat as a cop holding a suspect at gunpoint, or a Soldier or Marine rounding a corner and coming up on some AQ or terrorist bastard. In that moment, you share the same need for 100% reliability, well thought out weapon and gear selection and set-up, and solid training. You might not be in that situation every day, or have to live with that possibility every shift, or for a whole deployed year, but for those few moments, you have to be just as "on". This isn't a reference to Surefire; its an observation on getting quality training and gear (regardless of brand name) and saving up for it, versus skimping so you can buy now.
Thanks!
Jon
Like others have said, a quality red dot has the edge in pretty much any home defense scenario. Add a magnifier if you want. Training, and exposure to good info from those who have been in your shoes, are also a must. For now, quality iron sights and a light are the priority.
In my opinion, get a Primary Arms 3x mini scope or the Bushnell version, either can be had for less than $300. With these, you can turn the red dot on for CQB and leave both eyes open, or you can turn the red dot off and fix in for the magnified view.
Best of both worlds.
Thought I would throw in my .02 cents.
1. Light--Surefire x300 mounted on Thorntail at the 11:00-11:30 psn. the x300 gives off a ton of light and for me at the 11-11:30 psn I can readily access it.
2. Sling--I went with Magpul MS3 QD with a RAS. This option gives me the ability to go 1 or 2 point.
3. Optics--Aimpoint Pro. Great 2MOA RDS and I have heard stories of being able to hit targets out to 500 yards (never tried it myself yet). I also have an Aimpoint 3x mag mounted behind. Both have Larue mounts (best in market but spendy).
4. BUIS--Magpul or Troy folders. I am a firm beliver in iron sights as a backup. If or when the SHTF and you run out of batteries (and in that situation you might) then having BUIS can make the difference. Learn both.
Above all is Ammo and training. Learning and shooting the weapon system is more important than hardware. Have fun. Then I would start saving money to purchase a second weapon system from a top manufacture (LMT, Colt, Daniel Defence, Larue, BCM). Once this has been completed I would think about getting a pistol as a secondary weapon system to carry.
Like I said just my .02cents.
polymorpheous
06-19-13, 10:31
In my opinion, get a Primary Arms 3x mini scope or the Bushnell version, either can be had for less than $300. With these, you can turn the red dot on for CQB and leave both eyes open, or you can turn the red dot off and fix in for the magnified view.
Best of both worlds.
This is awful advice.
Cheap Chinese hardware does not belong on a defensive carbine.
Thanks again, guys. This has been a real learning experience! I do realize I may have made an error in leaving my carbine platform for the mid-heavy. All I needed for that was a light and a sling to start training.
I mainly chose the mid-heavy for the extended rail so I could get farther-out with my support hand. I always felt "cramped" shooting the carbine-length. I have 37" arms and am 6'2".
The next reason I chose that upper was (what I thought was) versatility. It's still 16" for maneuverability. I figured a heavy barrel would stand up to higher round-counts in a class and provide more consistent accuracy at greater distances, if I so chose. I felt the free-float rail was just icing.
It's a 1/7, so I could run 55gr ball for HD or 62-77gr for longer distance.
My "needs" are relatively minor for an AR and could probably be better served by a shotty. I chose an AR for HD because of increased incapacitation and decreased over-penetration over my G19.
Yes, I'm looking for a versatile set-up. My funds will only allow 1 rifle right now. As it stands, I have 7 Pmags and 240 rounds of assorted 55gr .223. I've had to pass up cheap .223 recently because I don't have my upper and set-up yet. As soon as I get a halfway decent set-up, I really want to start training.
This is going to be brutal on my budget. Like many of us, I'm making 1/2 of what I was 5 years ago and expenses are increasing. It will take time, but I'll get there.
Thanks again, you guys have been really awesome and I have some new things to consider!
You have gotten plenty of good advice so far so I'll just throw my .02 in as well. Getting a good set of iron sights and light is what you really need to make sure you are good to go for self defense.
A sling is one of those things that, in my opinion, you can go either way on needing to get one or not. I would say if you are going to be carrying your rifle for any extended period of time or transitioning to a secondary weapon, then you need one. Until that point, you can probably get by without one. I would say budget it in as part of the cost of your first training class.
An optic can be added down the road and is something to save up for, that way you can get a good quailty one. While I haven't used one, I have heard nothing but great things about the Aimpont PRO. I agree that a 1-4 probably is not the best option for self/home defense. Where the optic will help is in unconvenional positions when sight alignment is harder to acheive. You can still do good things with iron sights.
Finally, as this site is a great wealth of information, I wanted to bring your attetion to the following two threads after seeing this comment.
It's a 1/7, so I could run 55gr ball for HD or 62-77gr for longer distance.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26905
Ultimatly it all comes down to shot placement, but I think it is still good to know the capabilities and limitations of the ammunition you are using.
Overall, I think you are starting off on the right foot in trying to learn instead of telling us all what you bought and why it is so awsome.
Thanks, LT. I had already skimmed the 1st article but somehow missed the 2nd. What do you keep for HD?
Overpen is a *huge* concern of mine. I live in a *miniscule* mother-in-law apartment and every wall is a non-insulated exterior wall. I don't share walls w/anyone, but there are houses all around w/in 30-50 yds. I have one "clear" ffp, but my best cover and easiest move out of bed is the other direction. Probably just have to practice more on that one.
To Chameleox: I understand what you're saying about needing reliability. I didn't mean to make a HD situation sound any less dire than war. That statement was more in referencing some gear to be Mercedes-level quality. My Chevy gets me to and from work fine. I would not, however, buy or own a beater just to be cheap. For this rifle, my plan is to assemble the best parts I can afford until I have certain requirements met, then train, assess and improve as I can. I'd love to have a Noveske rifle with a RMR'd ACOG, Surefire X400 and 2000 rounds of Black Hills Ammo. Until I hit the lottery, I'll be plodding along as best I can :)
For everyone else, yeah...the PRO looks really that much better now. I'm frustrated on that one because, if I had the money, PSA had them for sale *with 3 boxes of Fed Black Box* for $408 the other day! I think the APL mounted @ 12 looks like my best option as well. I could use it on my G19 as well.
Wow, what a thread this has become. Thank you all again for the great advice! I've learned a LOT and look forward to continuing.
Honestly, if I were you, I'd focus less on the equipment race and more on buying quality ammo and magazines. The last 4 1/2 years have demonstrated the fragility of the civilian supply chain, and it ain't gonna get better.
I see it all over the internet, people rushing out and dumping 1-2 thousand dollars on rails, lights, optics, etc... They end up with a carbine that looks like it was dragged through the EE with a crap magnet, yet they only have 100 rounds of ammo and 2 magazines to feed it.
If your carbine proves to be accurate, reliable and you are able to employ basic marksmanship skills it will serve you well. IF you actually have ammunition...
Thanks, LT. I had already skimmed the 1st article but somehow missed the 2nd. What do you keep for HD?....
I currently use Federal Fusion. While not the the very best, it was (before all the madness) easy to get, not outrageously expensive, and provides some level of performance above regular ball/non-bonded rounds.
Boss, I agree. I just want to get my rifle serviceable for training and "go time". I don't consider sights, sling and light to be luxuries but bare minimums. Trust me, I have no need to be a mall-ninja. All the mags and ammo don't matter if I don't have a delivery system. As it stands, I have 3/4 of a rifle and 7 loaded mags. I'm just trying to make the most informed decision on how to finish that equation.
Surefire's are amazing. They have been proven. I have an X300 and a X300U lights. They are also quite expensive.
Lots of good advice here, keep in mind that some things that work for others might not necessarily work for you. The best way to find out what works is to shoot the gun
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