View Full Version : Flip up sights vs. not
I tried to find a thread already on this (not saying it doesn't exist) but I could find one.
The question I have is whether most people prefer flip up sights over the standard A2 sights. Does the A2 interfere with the use of optics? If yes is it all optics or just certian ones?
Let me provide a little background. I am looking to buy my first AR. the AR will be mostly for home defence, $hit hits the fan & general going to range to improve & shoot with friends. Eventually I may take it to some classes. I look forward to everyones input.
well by no means am i a expert.But I like having fixed BUIS .I have seen the A2 sight that attaches on the flat top with a Eotech it worked great.plus if your sight malfunction for any reason you are ready to go.not that it takes more than a second to flip up a folder .
just my taste.many use the flip ups and have great sucess with them.
But I remember dragging my weapon all over the place in training(low crawl down the middle of a ditch)To me if theres a chance if something getting in to the joint of a flip site causing a F#$K up ,I will not take it .
But going to the range only and safe queens, I see no problems like that.and i am sure that others on this site with more knowledge will probally say they have had no problems.it is just my SOP to go as close to what i was trained on in the military:D
But I like having fixed BUIS .I have seen the A2 sight that attaches on the flat top with a Eotech it worked great.plus if your sight malfunction for any reason you are ready to go.not that it takes more than a second to flip up a folder .
just my taste.
Ditto. I have LMT fixed front and rear sights on my Noveske with an EOTech 552. Since the EOTech has an auto shut-off, it seems like a good idea to have fixed sights. ;)
thanks guys
Ditto. I have LMT fixed front and rear sights on my Noveske with an EOTech 552. Since the EOTech has an auto shut-off, it seems like a good idea to have fixed sights. ;)
Nobody: hey do you have an N4? thats what I am hoping to buy. thanks for the info on the Eotech
Nobody: hey do you have an N4? thats what I am hoping to buy. thanks for the info on the Eotech
Yes, I have the N4 Light Carbine Low Profile. I just spoke/e-mailed John and he said there's a four week wait on them. (I'm probably going to buy one more :eek: ). It's a great carbine and John Noveske is first class.
Yes, I have the N4 Light Carbine Low Profile. I just spoke/e-mailed John and he said there's a four week wait on them. (I'm probably going to buy one more :eek: ). It's a great carbine and John Noveske is first class.
what muzzle break / comp do you have? I was looking at the KX-3 (fire breathing pig)
what muzzle break / comp do you have? I was looking at the KX-3 (fire breathing pig)
I have the Smith Vortex on mine. They had been offering the Vortex, Surefire 556, and one other (the name escapes me at the moment). However, I don't think they're offering anything but the Vortex on the N4 LC right now. If you ask John then I'm sure he'll install the KX-3 for you.
The thing I noticed when firing the N4 was how cool that barrel stays. It has gotten warm, but never hot (where I want to wear gloves). The Colts, KAC, and Bushmasters ( :o ) I've shot all got hot fairly fast.
Again, I can not tell you how pleased I've been with my Noveske and the service. Don't forget to ask John or Sheri for their discount if you're military or LEO.
I may be in the minority here but I much prefer a set of quality flip-ups. You have the option of getting them out of the way without removing them and losing your zero. With flip-ups you have a choice. You can choose to use them for co-witness or fold them down and have a nice clean optic-only view. My preference is for an unobstructed view. A rear flip-up like the ARMS #40L also allows you to mount it underneath a secondary optic like a 3xMag or NV, using a pivoting mount.
That is exactly what my concern was. The obstruction or interference with optics. However Nobody has mentioned he has an eotech & fixed sights
Nobody: do you notice any interference or does the fixed sight even appear when looking through the optic?
Failure2Stop
04-07-08, 16:15
Hey Spade-
I prefer a fixed FSB for all applications.
With that, I prefer a lower 1/3 cowitness for my 1X optics.
I prefer fixed rear sights on weapons I do not intend on using a 3X with (SBR, HD, etc).
I prefer folding rear sights on guns that will be using a variable (1-4X), fixed magnification (ACOGs), or 3X magnifier.
An Aimpoint with fixed front and rear, with a lower 1/3 cowitness, is fast and rugged, and is my preferred platform. I really like variable optics, but a fixed rear is a non-starter for them, so they get a flipper, which is better than nothing.
Some people don't like a fixed FSB through the variable optics at low power, but it doesn't bother me, YMMV. If you are running absolute cowitness, you may prefer to use flippers, as fixed sights (especially the rear) will interfere more with the sighting process.
That is exactly what my concern was. The obstruction or interference with optics. However Nobody has mentioned he has an eotech & fixed sights
Nobody: do you notice any interference or does the fixed sight even appear when looking through the optic?
Yes, you will have some interference. If you have the FSB and a folding rear then you probably won't really notice it at all. Using a slightly higher mount on the EOTech will help. However, I do prefer my sights to co-witness. I also perfer fixed sights though....
I prefer an uncluttered view, and use a Troy BUIS with my Aimpoints. If using a fixed BUIS, I prefer the Larue. I like a lower-third cowitness.
I agree with Nobody...when using an Eotech, I'd opt for a fixed BUIS.
RogerinTPA
04-07-08, 21:00
Agreed. I have fixed FSB's on both of my weapons. All of my optics co witness in the lower 1/3 and it doesn't bother me at all. I do have flip up rear BUIS on both. Some guys don't like the FSB in their field of view. Try both and see what you're comfortable with.
Hey Spade-
I prefer a fixed FSB for all applications.
With that, I prefer a lower 1/3 cowitness for my 1X optics.
I prefer fixed rear sights on weapons I do not intend on using a 3X with (SBR, HD, etc).
I prefer folding rear sights on guns that will be using a variable (1-4X), fixed magnification (ACOGs), or 3X magnifier.
An Aimpoint with fixed front and rear, with a lower 1/3 cowitness, is fast and rugged, and is my preferred platform. I really like variable optics, but a fixed rear is a non-starter for them, so they get a flipper, which is better than nothing.
Some people don't like a fixed FSB through the variable optics at low power, but it doesn't bother me, YMMV. If you are running absolute cowitness, you may prefer to use flippers, as fixed sights (especially the rear) will interfere more with the sighting process.
I like/have fixed FSB on both my M4's. I use Aimpoints and prefer co-witness sights with a folding rear. If the red dot goes down you can use the Aimpoint as a very large ghost ring and the FSB to get your hits. As the range opens up and time permits then you can deploy the rear sight.
Realize there is not going to be a wrong or right way on this. It is your personal preference. Check out other set ups at your range, experiment and see which way you would like to go.
BushmasterFanBoy
04-07-08, 21:18
That is exactly what my concern was. The obstruction or interference with optics. However Nobody has mentioned he has an eotech & fixed sights
Nobody: do you notice any interference or does the fixed sight even appear when looking through the optic?
You can certainly use the Eotech with fixed irons without any problems. Most people prefer a set of fixed sights for simplicity, reliability, and ease of mind. I found my Eotech mounted to the receiver to be too cluttered, and the sight picture suffered. I never fooled around with a lower third mount, but this is a good option if you still want a fixed FSB.
For me however, I use folding front/rear, so that my Eotech remains 100% unobstructed. As I mount it on the FF handguard in a scout-type setup, irons would intrude a lot in my FOV. I've not had any issues with folding sights, if you install them correctly, lock tite them, and mark them, you should be good to go. I find the possible durability issues (never had any, nor do I expect to have any) to be worth the trade off of a 100% unobstructed view.
I see it as user preference. If you are new, definitely go with fixed sights. Heck, pick up the Eotech, and just keep it laying around. Use irons for a good while, then mount an optic. From there, decide if the FOV is too crowded with irons (it was for me, especially with a direct-to-receiver mounted Eotech) or that you like the security/familiarity of irons. If you want fixed irons, I'd look at a lower third co-witness mount from LaRue.
It's up to you. Ain't AR's great?:D
For me, I prefer a fixed BUIS in a lower 1/3 co-witness setup with non-magnified optics. With magnified optics, I use folding BUIS.
Does anyone recommend a mount for the EOTech 552 that permits a lower 1/3 co-witness?
Robb Jensen
04-08-08, 06:03
Does anyone recommend a mount for the EOTech 552 that permits a lower 1/3 co-witness?
LaRue or a RRA Dominator will do this. The Dominator has a 6/3 A4 type rear sight integrated on it. The LaRue will work with any receiver mounted flip up or BUIS.
LaRue or a RRA Dominator will do this. The Dominator has a 6/3 A4 type rear sight integrated on it. The LaRue will work with any receiver mounted flip up or BUIS.
Do you recommend the La Rue Tactical Picatinny Riser QD LT-101 ( http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=28 )?
Robb Jensen
04-08-08, 06:12
Do you recommend the La Rue Tactical Picatinny Riser QD LT-101 ( http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=28 )?
I've never used one of those but I'm sure it's great (LaRue makes great stuff).
I was referring to this for EOTech use.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=33
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/LT110.jpg
Wow, thanks everyone for the rapid & informative insight. I actually expected a lot more people to prefer the flip ups to be honest. I have yet to shoot anything that is co-witness. I'll have to see if I can find someone that has that setup so I can try it.
For your defensive or SHTF rifle, go with the FSB (that goes for rifles with an Eotech or other red dot as well). There is just less to go wrong and an unpowered backup is always there just in case. If you are using a reticled scope, you can go with a flip up since you have an unpowered primary already on the rifle. For a range gun, anything goes.......
And btw......... if you do go with flip-up, I'm very fond of the Troy flip up sights. They have made some recent improvements which prompted me to upgrade including serrations on the side of their new M4 front flip-up sight and a change on the gradiations for windage on their rear. Good equipment and very quick to deploy.
I've got a Troy flip-up BUIS on my S&W MP15A SBR with a YHM flip FSB. I use an EOTech 511 for an optic and I like the uncluttered view I get for fast target acquisition. If the EOTech ever decides to go belly up, it only takes a second to deploy the irons and you're back in business. I've tried it different ways on different rifles, 1/3 co-witness, etc. but this is the set-up I prefer.
If the EOTech ever decides to go belly up, it only takes a second to deploy the irons and you're back in business.
That works great on the range or when playing games. However, I would not take that approach in a gunfight in Iraq or Afghanistan. Again, it comes down to what your needs are, how you're going to use the weapon, and personal preference.
Do you recommend the La Rue Tactical Picatinny Riser QD LT-101 ( http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=28 )?
I find the 101 much more useful for mounting an Eotech than the actual Larue Eotech mount. If you're not using a PVS-14 behind it, it gives you a lot more mounting options and allows you to keep the 552 on your upper, not out oer your rail system.
How does that 5/8" rise affect your sight picture with LMT front and rear sights? I like the flexibility of that mount for the reasons you stated, M4Guru, but you won't have a 1/3 co-witness will you?
Flip BUIS for me.. I don't want anything in my field of view except for a big ole Dot of Death... If the optic fails, the Optic is a big ass Ghost ring sight that you can use to hit tgts out to 25yds with great accuracy.
Anything beyond that, and I will have the .05sec it takes to deploy my rear BUIS.
And on a Carbine .. Fixed FSB all the way. only long range rigs with magnified optics get a Folding Front sight.
There's no wrong way..
I prefer the fixed BUIS's as I run Aimpoints. One of my rifles even has a carry handle. The only time I would feel the need to use a folding BUIS is when I had an optic that needed to sit over the sight. Fixed will always be stronger than folding so, unless your situation dictates that you use a folding BUIS, there's no particular need to.
I prefer the fixed BUIS's as I run Aimpoints. One of my rifles even has a carry handle. The only time I would feel the need to use a folding BUIS is when I had an optic that needed to sit over the sight. Fixed will always be stronger than folding so, unless your situation dictates that you use a folding BUIS, there's no particular need to.
Yeah, I think the Aimpoints present less risk of your optic "failing" as most inoperable electronic sights are due to the battery running dry. I'd be more apt to run the Aimpoint with front flip-up than an EoTech.
I bought the KAC 600 meter adjustable rear and rail mounted matching flip front. Simple fact that my SR15 won't see the mud and grime of a service rifle or go thru a training course. The idea of particles invading the nooks & crannys and hinder operation while flipping up or folding is real for a lot of folks. My next build will probably have a set of Troy sights on it for the simpler design. Sure they can still get some grime in the rotating areas but I think it will effect it less than the Knights design.
But, with saying that the KAC version (600m adjustable on the M110) was built for the purpose to be in a deployed / field situation. I am not sure how well they have performed in real world down range applications or if they were removed and set aside.
Living the dream down range - Kandahar.:eek:
It depends.
If you are going with the KISS principal, A1 upper and fixed sight have some benefits. It is not likely you are going to break it.
On the other hand;
When I use night vision in combo with scope or other optic, I don't care for the front site sticking up in the way.
Spade, since this is your first AR, I would suggest getting a flat top with railgas port. This gives you the most flexibility. You can buy a fixed front post if you want or get a fold down.
Since this is your 1st AR stick with a standard FSB and LMT or Larue BUIS and learn to use them. I would worry about optics and flip-up or fixed sights after I mastered the basics.
If this is the first you've OWNED afer playing with your rich Uncle's toys then go with the sights which would work best with your optic of choice/intended use. I like a standard FSB with a folding BUIS with a red dot on my working gun. I'm not planning on putting BUIS at all on my scoped (ACOG) 6.8 hunting build I'm working on. I've never heard of an ACOG failing.
thanks again guys for all the reat advise. I think I've pretty much made mind up to buy a Noveske N4. just working between the basic & the low profle & trying to figure out which optic options I'll want to add later
thanks again guys for all the reat advise. I think I've pretty much made mind up to buy a Noveske N4. just working between the basic & the low profle & trying to figure out which optic options I'll want to add later
I had the same dilemma just a few months ago. Noveske N4... Basic vs. LoPro???
I had to be really honest with myself on what I planned on doing with this rifle. The reality is that I like shooting a variety of steel targets (6" circles to 18" x 24" rectangles) at 200-400 yards from static field positions (prone, sitting, kneeling, etc). My plan was to use a 3X ACOG, and I'm glad I went with the LoPro. When the front sight is up, there is a very faint ghost in the sight picture of the 3X ACOG. I find it slightly distracting. For a range toy, I like the option of flipping it down.
If you're planning on doing a lot of shooting with a non-magnified optic such as an Aimpoint at 100 yards or less, drag this rifle through the dirt, and drop it on some asphalt, I would go with a Basic.
What you're planning on doing with the carbine will determine what type of optic you want. Consider your intended use AND your optic BEFORE choosing fixed vs. flip.
I had the same dilemma just a few months ago. Noveske N4... Basic vs. LoPro???
I had to be really honest with myself on what I planned on doing with this rifle. The reality is that I like shooting a variety of steel targets (6" circles to 18" x 24" rectangles) at 200-400 yards from static field positions (prone, sitting, kneeling, etc). My plan was to use a 3X ACOG, and I'm glad I went with the LoPro. When the front sight is up, there is a very faint ghost in the sight picture of the 3X ACOG. I find it slightly distracting. For a range toy, I like the option of flipping it down.
If you're planning on doing a lot of shooting with a non-magnified optic such as an Aimpoint at 100 yards or less, drag this rifle through the dirt, and drop it on some asphalt, I would go with a Basic.
What you're planning on doing with the carbine will determine what type of optic you want. Consider your intended use AND your optic BEFORE choosing fixed vs. flip.
Thanks for the heads up. as of right now I am leaning to using a Eotech. Part of the other problem with deciding between the basic & low pro. is that the low pro. comes with the rail already. Eventually I would like to add a VG & a light. Obviously I can always remove the factory flip ups & replace them with fixed, or buy the basic & add the rail. This will be my first AR. I have shot M16 in the military & have shot a couple of ARs that a friend owns. However since I'm the one dropping the money I am trying to be very patient & take the time to decide what I want. My plans for the rifle is obvious range usage, also it will be my SHTF & personal / home defence weapon.
DocMinster
04-25-08, 07:40
I had a BUIS on my issued weapon and a fixed FSB I now have the same on my personal weapon.
I prefer a FSB as in CQB situations you are more prone to impacting the front of your weapon (in comparison to the rear of your weapon) when breeching doorways or rounding corners. I am not saying that a flip up FSB is a weak item but why chance it.
as for BUIS I have recently (within 6months) went to the A.R.M.S. #40 L-P as I needed the Low profile (L) since I am using a PVS-14 AND the .50 (P) is REALLY nice to dial in at 200-300 yds.
finally I had an EoTech...Rugged yes...Dummy proof ..Yes....BUT in a "stress fire situation" I feel that the functioning of the buttons ie.
1 to turn on
2 different to adjust the brightness
1 to turn on NV mode
press 2 @ the same time to turn off
Man that IS simple BUT let me tell those of you that have not been in combat... BUTTONS are the LAST thing you are thinking about.
So for obvious personal reasons I went with what I was issued an Aimpoint its simple ...yes 1 button/dial to do everything.
Good Luck
Doc
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/6920LeftPVS.jpg
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