View Full Version : NEW S&W M&P AR
S&W has joined up with Viking Tactics to produce a new AR.
Info here on it: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/VTAC.pdf
C4
Does it have M4 feedramps?
That gun will be a hot seller for the 3 gunners. I know the quality of the two will probably be different, but I bet this one will give the Noveske VTAC carbine a run for the money.
Wayne Dobbs
04-07-08, 12:57
Could somebody please explain why there are TWO VTAC ARs out there from TWO vendors? That sounds a bit unusual.
I'm taking Kyle Lamb's carbine class this coming Memorial Day weekend (BTW, there are still has openings). I'll have to ask the CSM about his carbine that is being marketed by so many! I love my N4 Light Carbine Low Profile, but I was tempted when I heard John Noveske was also making a VTAC carbine now as well. :D
Could somebody please explain why there are TWO VTAC ARs out there from TWO vendors? That sounds a bit unusual.
Noveske's will definitely be a hard use carbine, but the S&W will likely cost much less and not as durable. Plus, I don't think CEO of S&W will ever pick up the phone or respond to e-mails himself like John Noveske does. John is a helluva great guy.
Does it have M4 feedramps?
Yes.
C4
Could somebody please explain why there are TWO VTAC ARs out there from TWO vendors? That sounds a bit unusual.
This is a good question. I actually think that there are 3 VTAC guns on the market as we speak.
C4
Grant,
Any word on an MSRP yet? It sounds like it's a nice package that S&W and VTAC put together. S&W certainly is hitting the AR15 market HARD! :D
Thanks,
NoBody
David Thomas
04-07-08, 13:51
This is a good question. I actually think that there are 3 VTAC guns on the market as we speak.
C4
JP was first and has offered a VTAC carbine for a number of years. Then came S&W and Noveske. I think I remember reading that LWRC may have a VTAC carbine in the future, but I could be mistaken.
Looks like the VTAC stock is at an all time high at present. It also looks like Mr. Lamb knows how to negotiate and avoid contracts that contain the word "exclusive." Good for him and his company.
Grant,
Any word on an MSRP yet? It sounds like it's a nice package that S&W and VTAC put together. S&W certainly is hitting the AR15 market HARD! :D
Thanks,
NoBody
I think our price will be in the high $1,200's.
C4
David Thomas
04-07-08, 14:12
Maybe I missed it, but isn't the gas block on this carbine a pinned steel gas block?
Jay Cunningham
04-07-08, 14:58
Could somebody please explain why there are TWO VTAC ARs out there from TWO vendors? That sounds a bit unusual.
All these clone VTAC carbines is a little odd. No knock on the design, just an observation.
Jeez...another VTAC gun that's pretty much just like all the others...
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 17:37
Maybe I missed it, but isn't the gas block on this carbine a pinned steel gas block?
The VTAC S&W M&P15 I saw at SHOT had a steel pinned low pro gas block and a rifle length JP/VTAC tube covering the gas block. It was the first thing Ernest Langdon pointed out to me....mainly because I've told him many times to tell the engineers at S&W to please use steel pinned gas blocks on the M&P15Ts.
Vltor stock eh?
How front heavy would that rifle be with a CTR? I'm just thinking a CTR would have been nice and simple for that rifle.
ETA: and it is Ul-tore, right? I heard someone on TV pronounce the Greek letter like a "V" the other day. I just wanted to check because I always correct my friends. No disrespect to that individual either... ;)
RogerinTPA
04-07-08, 18:45
Interesting. I wonder how all 3 VTAC rifles will compare in price and accuracy via range report. Speaking of which, any range reports on the other 2?
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 18:55
Vltor stock eh?
How front heavy would that rifle be with a CTR? I'm just thinking a CTR would have been nice and simple for that rifle.
ETA: and it is Ul-tore, right? I heard someone on TV pronounce the Greek letter like a "V" the other day. I just wanted to check because I always correct my friends. No disrespect to that individual either... ;)
I pronounce in Vul-TOR but I do believe ULTORE is the proper way but I'm probably wrong too. I've heard many people pronounce it VelTOR.
What's up with these weird names in the gun industry anyways? Geissele (Guys+Lee) which half of the time I say Jez-L or Guys-EL and F it up myself.
Jay Cunningham
04-07-08, 19:09
Question: What does VLTOR mean?
Answer: VLTOR is the ancient Roman spelling for the Latin word ULTOR, meaning "Avenger". This word was commonly used to describe the Roman God of War "Mars".
..........
RAM Engineer
04-07-08, 19:19
Interesting. I wonder how all 3 VTAC rifles will compare in price and accuracy via range report. Speaking of which, any range reports on the other 2?
We need Rob to make a chart just for VTAC rifles!
I'm not very interested in the JP rifle version. The Noveske interests me the most, with the S&W second, mostly due to cost and accessories (but no iron sights?). I'm anxious to see what the LWRC version might look like, if it happens.
Question:
Which training entity has the most different makes of signature guns:
a. Gunsite
b. Thunder Ranch
c. VTAC
Jason
Which training entity has the most different makes of signature guns:
a. Gunsite
b. Thunder Ranch
c. VTAC
Jason
b.
Not in any particular order, guns made with the lightning bolt logo:
Robar (1911)
Wilson (50 made - 1911)
Neil Keller (double stack - 1911ish)
Les Baer (1911)
Les Baer (AR)
S&W (revolvers)
Marketing folks, it's about marketing.
RAM Engineer
04-07-08, 20:05
b.
Not in any particular order, guns made with the lightning bolt logo:
Robar (1911)
Wilson (50 made - 1911)
Neil Keller (double stack - 1911ish)
Les Baer (1911)
Les Baer (AR)
S&W (revolvers)
Marketing folks, it's about marketing.
You forgot the ROBAR/Thunder Ranch shotgun and bolt gun. ;)
Jeez...another VTAC gun that's pretty much just like all the others...
LOOKS like the others, but there are wide variations between them when it comes to prices and features such as barrel material.
im just not sure i "get" it.
are they geared towards 3-gunners?
im just not seeing this "style" of rifle as being a popular enough trend to warrant all of the copies on the market.
i mean, im sure its a nice rifle, but doesnt seem to fit the troy/DD/larue/magpul/rails-for-days trend lately in tactical carbines.
I guess I'm a little surprised there are 3 manufacturers putting the VTAC rifle out also. However, I'm more shocked that the manufacturers has agreed to it than VTAC. I think it is a great job of marketing on VTACs part, but a little surprising that one of these companies has not wanted exclusive rights to distribute. I see no problems with the fact that VTAC wants to get the product out there though. Must be some reason that 3 companies are putting them out.
rubberneck
04-08-08, 09:21
..........
Latin didn't use the letter U as it was too difficult to carve into stone. The letter V was used exclusively. I don't know where they came up with the tidbit but it is historically incorrect. Depending on it's usage the letter V in Latin can sound like the letter u, v or w in modern English.
im just not sure i "get" it.
are they geared towards 3-gunners?
im just not seeing this "style" of rifle as being a popular enough trend to warrant all of the copies on the market.
i mean, im sure its a nice rifle, but doesnt seem to fit the troy/DD/larue/magpul/rails-for-days trend lately in tactical carbines.
It is geared towards 3 gunners for sure, but I do question why they put a flashlight on this gun. :confused:
C4
rubberneck
04-08-08, 14:51
It is geared towards 3 gunners for sure, but I do question why they put a flashlight on this gun. :confused: C4
I disagree that it is aimed at 3 gun competitors. First of all it is chambered in 5.56 instead of .223 or .223 wylde. It has a flash hider versus a break. It has a 1 in 7 twist when most three gunners want a 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 and it is also a 16 inch barrel when most of three gunners want at least an 18 inch barrel. If he is aiming this a three gunners than he missed the mark.
I know you have made your point recently about JP triggers, but CSM Lamb uses them on his fighting guns along with his VTAC handguard according to his book. This gun, the Noveske and the JP rifles are all an extension of that philosophy.
Not to throw fuel onto the fire, but I thought Kyle Lamb was also a big 3-gun guy as well? I'm not saying you're wrong at all as he clearly took his VTAC design into harms way. But you can't overlook that influence either.
rubberneck
04-08-08, 15:02
Not to throw fuel onto the fire, but I thought Kyle Lamb was also a big 3-gun guy as well? I'm not saying you're wrong at all as he clearly took his VTAC design into harms way. But you can't overlook that influence either.
And Larry Vickers is one of the founders of IDPA. Just because these guys also shoot games doesn't mean that they forsake their every day equipment for go fast game gear.
I disagree that it is aimed at 3 gun competitors. First of all it is chambered in 5.56 instead of .223 or .223 wylde. It has a flash hider versus a break. It has a 1 in 7 twist when most three gunners want a 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 and it is also a 16 inch barrel when most of three gunners want at least an 18 inch barrel. If he is aiming this a three gunners than he missed the mark.
I know you have made your point recently about JP triggers, but CSM Lamb uses them on his fighting guns along with his VTAC handguard according to his book. This gun, the Noveske and the JP rifles are all an extension of that philosophy.
No need to disagree with me, the gun was designed by a 3 gunner and the company is pushing it as a 3 gunners weapon (FYI).
I also doubt that it has a TRUE 556 NATO chamber and there is nothing wrong with 1/7 twist for 3 gun.
Lamb can use any type of trigger he wants and or call it whatever he wants, but the fact remains that the JP single stage trigger is a HORRIBLE choice as a combat trigger and I do not know of ANY professional instructor that would recommend this type of trigger on a duty weapon. This makes it a "gamers" trigger for sure.
C4
Not to throw fuel onto the fire, but I thought Kyle Lamb was also a big 3-gun guy as well? I'm not saying you're wrong at all as he clearly took his VTAC design into harms way. But you can't overlook that influence either.
The way Mr. Lamb likes his AR's configured now, doesn't mean that is the way he had them configured in Delta.
3 gun type AR's and duty/combat AR's can share a lot of the same things. There are also some things that they should NOT share.
C4
His set-up in Somalia looks similar to his current set-up, but less refined. I'll ask him about it when I see him.
rubberneck
04-08-08, 15:18
Lamb can use any type of trigger he wants and or call it whatever he wants, but the fact remains that the JP single stage trigger is a HORRIBLE choice as a combat trigger and I do not know of ANY professional instructor that would recommend this type of trigger on a duty weapon. This makes it a "gamers" trigger for sure.
C4
You mean besides CSM Lamb? Unless of course you are saying that he isn't a professional instructor, because he quite clearly has recommended that type of trigger on a duty gun.
His set-up in Somalia looks similar to his current set-up, but less refined. I'll ask him about it when I see him.
I believe that he was running some carbon fiber tube. I doubt though that he was using a MB and a single stage 3LBS trigger.
C4
You mean besides CSM Lamb? Unless of course you are saying that he isn't a professional instructor, because he quite clearly has recommended that type of trigger on a duty gun.
Yes, besides Mr. Lamb. He is the only one that recommends that type of trigger. Instructors from his similar background/experience do NOT recommend a single stage, 3 LBS trigger.
C4
Jay Cunningham
04-08-08, 15:28
You mean besides CSM Lamb?
Is he active duty? I thought he was a civvie now...
Is he active duty? I thought he was a civvie now...
Correct. He is no longer Active Duty.
C4
Yes, besides Mr. Lamb. He is the only one that recommends that type of trigger. Instructors from his similar background/experience do NOT recommend a single stage, 3 LBS trigger.
C4
Ah, sounds as though a difference of opinions among professionals about their "techniques." ;)
BTW, I believe you are correct about that being a FF carbon handguad. Much like the one I had on my Stoner....I should have caught that.
rubberneck
04-08-08, 15:32
Is he active duty? I thought he was a civvie now...
I am not sure I am tracking you. How does the fact that he is no longer on active duty play into his opinion on how to set up a rifle for real world use? What am I missing.
Is he active duty? I thought he was a civvie now...
He's retired. We even call the reitred CSMs and SGMs at Bragg "SGM." They earned it!
If you guys could see all the "gamer" shit guys use in combat the internet might implode...
Comps, mags wells, 3 pound triggers on M4s, stainless match barrels..
Some of the best fighters I ever saw carried comp'd, double stack, stainless 1911s with Bo-Mars and big mag wells...and still do today.
Everyone's heroes use a bunch of SERPA holsters!
Eotech 551s are still the go-to optic.
The list of stuff people on the internet say is garbage sure gets a lot of use from the guys at the front. Whatever helps get rounds on target the fastest, period.
Ah, sounds as though a difference of opinions among professionals about their "techniques." ;)
BTW, I believe you are correct about that being a FF carbon handguad. Much like the one I had on my Stoner....I should have caught that.
I would say that you are correct if more people of Mr. Lamb's background shared his opinion. They do not however.
C4
If you guys could see all the "gamer" shit guys use in combat the internet might implode...
Comps, mags wells, 3 pound triggers on M4s, stainless match barrels, the list goes on for rifles.
Some of the best fighters I ever saw carried comp'd, double stack, stainless 1911s with Bo-Mars and big mag wells...and still do today.
Were those 1911's chambered in 40S&W as well? :)
C4
rubberneck
04-08-08, 15:50
Yes, besides Mr. Lamb. He is the only one that recommends that type of trigger. Instructors from his similar background/experience do NOT recommend a single stage, 3 LBS trigger.
C4
And at one point what Col Cooper was advocating was at odds with what every other professional firearms instructor was teaching.
BTW, in his book he recommends a minimum four pound trigger pull on the JP trigger which is right in line with the Geissele Automatics service trigger that you recommend.
I would say that you are correct if more people of Mr. Lamb's background shared his opinion. They do not however.
C4
A technique that violates procedure is wrong. However, there is nothing wrong with a technique that doesn't violate procedure as long as it works for the person using it. This simple rule is not dependent upon the number of people that use the technique.
A majority opinion doesn't necessarily make something right (or wrong for that matter). It makes it an opinion. Minorities may apply as well.
"A way, not the way."
Were those 1911's chambered in 40S&W as well? :)
C4
No, this was about 4 years before that short, miserable trial period.
And at one point what Col Cooper was advocating was at odds with what every other professional firearms instructor was teaching.
BTW, in his book he recommends a minimum four pound trigger pull on the JP trigger which is right in line with the Geissele Automatics service trigger that you recommend.
Everyone has an opinion for sure. What I have learned though is just because someone is in HSLD group XYZ, does not mean that they know anything about guns and gear.
Drop in, single stage triggers are the LEAST reliable triggers made. I have had every brand out there (Timney, JP, etc) go down with mild use. This applies to both the 3lbs and 4lbs triggers. Reliable triggers are a must and single stage triggers do NOT have a long track record of being reliabe.
Two stage triggers do have a light trigger pull as well, but they are generally much more robust than single stage triggers (apples and oranges).
C4
It is geared towards 3 gunners for sure, but I do question why they put a flashlight on this gun. :confused:
C4
Thats easy, its because its a VTAC mount.
Jay Cunningham
04-08-08, 16:08
I am not sure I am tracking you. How does the fact that he is no longer on active duty play into his opinion on how to set up a rifle for real world use? What am I missing.
I was wondering why certain individuals kept referring to him as CSM Lamb. I agree/understand he "earned" it, but I've never heard any other retired .mil instructors go by their rank before.
A technique that violates procedure is wrong. However, there is nothing wrong with a technique that doesn't violate procedure as long as it works for the person using it. This simple rule is not dependent upon the number of people that use the technique.
A majority opinion doesn't necessarily make something right (or wrong for that matter). It makes it an opinion. Minorities may apply as well.
"A way, not the way."
If this were the case, then people telling us that Oly AR's are "the best" would have a leg to stand on. They do not.
You cannot judge something by small QTY's. You have to look at this in large QTY's. Based on this, drop in, single stage triggers are a poor choice as they are not very reliable.
C4
rubberneck
04-08-08, 16:09
Everyone has an opinion for sure. What I have learned though is just because someone is in HSLD group XYZ, does not mean that they know anything about guns and gear.
C4
Have you ever spoken to CSM Lamb or are you just assuming that you know more about the subject than he does?
Excuse me if I read your post wrong but you drew a different conclusion (based on the input of other respected instructors) on the validity of a single stage match trigger (as you well know Geissele is making one as well) and seem to have drawn the conclusion that he doesn't know anything about guns. I don't claim to know the guy well but in the few times I have talked to him he knew his shit. Different isn't always wrong. Sometimes different is just different and sometimes it is better.
Every HSLD instructor will tell you (if he is being honest) that their understanding of the subject is constantly evolving. Some folks find themselves ahead of the curve. I don't know if he is right or wrong. I am just unwilling to dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't follow what others consider to be the norm.
Thats easy, its because its a VTAC mount.
LOL, right you are! I fully understand that VTAC wanted to cram as many of thier products on the AR as possible.
C4
Hey Grant,
Are you going to be selling the S&W's VTAC rifle?
Thanks,
NoBody
Have you ever spoken to CSM Lamb or are you just assuming that you know more about the subject than he does?
Yes I have spoken to him, but not on this subject. I have also read portions of his book and spoken to people that know him well.
Excuse me if I read your post wrong but you drew a different conclusion (based on the input of other respected instructors) on the validity of a single stage match trigger (as you well know Geissele is making one as well) and seem to have drawn the conclusion that he doesn't know anything about guns. I don't claim to know the guy well but in the few times I have talked to him he knew his shit. Different isn't always wrong. Sometimes different is just different and sometimes it is better.
As an FFL dealer that builds a lot of weapons, I would have to say that some of Mr. Lambs gear selections are not what I would consider to be the optimal choice for a combat weapon.
I have not seen a Geisele single stage trigger (to date). Just because a manufacturer makes something, does not mean that it is a good idea or that you should buy it. ;)
Every HSLD instructor will tell you (if he is being honest) that their understanding of the subject is constantly evolving. Some folks find themselves ahead of the curve. I don't know if he is right or wrong. I am just unwilling to dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't follow what others consider to be the norm.
In my experience running G&R and building guns for HSLD types, I would NOT say that a lot of them of them are technically savy or "gun guys." Just because you can pull a trigger doesn't mean that you know jack chit about how to properly build a weapon or which components are the best quality.
Based my years of experience with every single stage, drop in trigger system out there, I cannot recommend them for serious, hard use. I also disagree that ANY 3lbs or 4lbs trigger belongs on a hard use, combat AR.
I also think that two stage triggers really only belong on precision based weapons like the DMR. Standard issue, M4's do just fine with 7-9LBS triggers.
C4
Hey Grant,
Are you going to be selling the S&W's VTAC rifle?
Thanks,
NoBody
Yes. We stock all of S&W AR's.
C4
I was wondering why certain individuals kept referring to him as CSM Lamb. I agree/understand he "earned" it, but I've never heard any other retired .mil instructors go by their rank before.
From now on, I want you to call me Petty Officer Timberlake or just simply "CTO2" :D
All kidding aside, calling someone by their old .Mil rank seem rather strange to me as well.
C4
In my experience running G&R and building guns for HSLD types, I would NOT say that a lot of them of them are technically savy or "gun guys." Just because you can pull a trigger doesn't mean that you know jack chit about how to properly build a weapon or which components are the best quality.
That I would have to agree with. I have 5,000 hours flying, but I can't fix the damn plane when it breaks. However, I can usually tell the crew chief what I "think" the problem is.
As far a compenents go, I think the operator should have a say in what works and what doesn't. We never could get our 25mm gatlin to fire correctly and we kept pushing back at Boeing about that as well.
Similar to JP VTAC AR. Mine has run flawlessly for the past year and quite accurate using John's Cyro barrel.
People who retire generally retain that rank as a prefix as opposed to Mr... People who don't stay in til retirement don't.
It's a sign of respect for a guy who smoked terrorists for 25 years and attained the highest enlisted rank possible. I don't think it's weird at all, look at all the retired officers on CNN and Fox News.
rubberneck
04-08-08, 16:49
Just because a manufacturer makes something, does not mean that it is a good idea or that you should buy it. ;)
C4
Considering the amount of work Bill does for the military one might infer that the reason why he is making one is that there is a demand for a really good single stage trigger. ;) Either that or he just has a compulsion to waste his very limited time and resources making triggers for gamers.
Stretz Tactical Inc
04-08-08, 17:08
I think this actually makes 4 viking tactics rifles: JP, Noveske, LWRC (not available yet) & now S&W.
From now on, I want you to call me Petty Officer Timberlake or just simply "CTO2" :D
All kidding aside, calling someone by their old .Mil rank seem rather strange to me as well.
C4
LOL I call my ex step father Colonel. Maybe its an Army thing.
Jay Cunningham
04-08-08, 17:41
People who retire generally retain that rank as a prefix as opposed to Mr... People who don't stay in til retirement don't.
It's a sign of respect for a guy who smoked terrorists for 25 years and attained the highest enlisted rank possible. I don't think it's weird at all, look at all the retired officers on CNN and Fox News.
I suppose I'm just used to Master Sergeant Vickers - I mean Larry.
;)
Jay Cunningham
04-08-08, 17:42
From now on, I want you to call me Petty Officer Timberlake or just simply "CTO2" :D
All kidding aside, calling someone by their old .Mil rank seem rather strange to me as well.
C4
I guess I can join you for mid-rats in the 2nd Class Galley...
I suppose I'm just used to Master Sergeant Vickers - I mean Larry.
;)
Right, I doubt he wants anyone to call him SGM in a conversation...it's just customary for retired folks to retain the prefix.
Nathan_Bell
04-08-08, 18:13
LOL I call my ex step father Colonel. Maybe its an Army thing.
It has been my experience that Col. and higher tend to still be called by their rank in many settings. High school friends' dad was Col. Clewell in certain circumstances throughout our growing up, never heard my neighbor called Master Sgt Chestnut even though the Sgt was in VN more times than the Col., and told funnier stories.
As for the original topic and its drift the more various models in the market, from good companies, the better. IMHO
People who retire generally retain that rank as a prefix as opposed to Mr... People who don't stay in til retirement don't.
It's a sign of respect for a guy who smoked terrorists for 25 years and attained the highest enlisted rank possible. I don't think it's weird at all, look at all the retired officers on CNN and Fox News.
If people wish to call someone by their retired rank that is fine I think. If a retired .mil person asks people to call them by their rank or introduce themselves as "Master Chief Smith" then that is weird to me.
C4
Considering the amount of work Bill does for the military one might infer that the reason why he is making one is that there is a demand for a really good single stage trigger. ;) Either that or he just has a compulsion to waste his very limited time and resources making triggers for gamers.
There is most likely a need for a single stage trigger that is robust and that does not have a bunch of screws holding it together.
If anyone can do it, Bill can.
I personally would love to see a high quality, screw-less single stage with a weight around 5-7lbs.
C4
Considering the amount of work Bill does for the military one might infer that the reason why he is making one is that there is a demand for a really good single stage trigger. ;) Either that or he just has a compulsion to waste his very limited time and resources making triggers for gamers.
I suppose I'm just used to Master Sergeant Vickers - I mean Larry.
;)
You mean "Uncle Larry" or LAV or "DUDE!"
C4
I guess I can join you for mid-rats in the 2nd Class Galley...
LOL, mmmm mid-rats! All the left over food from the day that no one else would eat.
C4
It has been my experience that Col. and higher tend to still be called by their rank in many settings. High school friends' dad was Col. Clewell in certain circumstances throughout our growing up, never heard my neighbor called Master Sgt Chestnut even though the Sgt was in VN more times than the Col., and told funnier stories.
As for the original topic and its drift the more various models in the market, from good companies, the better. IMHO
I agree. Lt. Col and Col (and above) tend to stick with people after they leave .mil life. Enlisted rank does not seem to IMHO.
C4
The VTAC S&W M&P15 I saw at SHOT had a steel pinned low pro gas block and a rifle length JP/VTAC tube covering the gas block. It was the first thing Ernest Langdon pointed out to me....mainly because I've told him many times to tell the engineers at S&W to please use steel pinned gas blocks on the M&P15Ts.
Was it the pins that hold the gas block in place or the actual gas block itself that was not made of steel? What were they originally made of?
Tspeis
Robb Jensen
04-08-08, 21:46
Was it the pins that hold the gas block in place or the actual gas block itself that was not made of steel? What were they originally made of?
Tspeis
The M&P15Ts use an aluminum gas block with two set screws. I haven't yet seen a new one with a steel gas block that is pinned.
"As an FFL dealer that builds a lot of weapons, I would have to say that some of Mr. Lambs gear selections are not what I would consider to be the optimal choice for a combat weapon. "
Based on all your "combat" experience? I’m not suggesting CSM Lamb’s thoughts and ideas on what constitutes an appropriate “combat” weapon are beyond reproach. In fact I find the theory behind the tactics and tools used by real deal guys most interesting. When you understand the thought process behind TTP’s it can help you better determine if they will fit into YOUR tool box for the missions YOU are tasked with.
I am curious as to what qualifies YOU to determine what is appropriate for “combat”. Is it all YOUR PERSONAL “combat” experience? Us guys strapping it on and walking the walk want to know if the information we are getting off your site is has been validated by those posting it.
Just curious.
Take care,
Timmy -- if you believe that only people with combat experience should be designing and choosing and evaluating gear, prepare for a motley kit. And heaven help us if we don't engage in a major conflict for a decade or two, because all development would have to stop completely.
When technical people create gear without field/operator input, the gear usually works everywhere except in the field. Been there, seen that, have the bruises on my skull from Rapid Multiple Cranial-Wall Impact response.
When field/operator types create gear without technical input, the gear usually doesn't work at all.
The vast, vast majority of engineers working at gun companies are not combat vets.
The vast, vast majority of combat vets do not devote hours of their free time almost every day to researching, exploring, and testing the different types of kit available. I don't want to speak for Grant, but presumably he didn't come to his conclusions based on a long evening of contemplating his navel. His conclusions are probably based on the informal broad database of knowledge he's created after countless hours of using this gear plus the significant number of SMEs (many of whom are combat vets) who deal with and speak with him on a regular basis.
I've met plenty of gunfight survivors who couldn't shoot their way out of a paper sack and certainly couldn't teach you how to. While their experience is valuable, it doesn't turn them into overnight SMEs.
Todd,
Absolutely not what I’m saying. I completely agree with you. What I’m saying is a man’s background, experience, training all heavily influence the choices we make when it comes to gear, training and tactics etc..
I’m also not saying C4 doesn’t have valuable input or the right to challenge the gear choices of very seasoned soldiers. I’m just looking for a little perspective on his statement.
Based on all your "combat" experience? I’m not suggesting CSM Lamb’s thoughts and ideas on what constitutes an appropriate “combat” weapon are beyond reproach. In fact I find the theory behind the tactics and tools used by real deal guys most interesting. When you understand the thought process behind TTP’s it can help you better determine if they will fit into YOUR tool box for the missions YOU are tasked with.
No based on my knowledge of what breaks or what is less than reliable! Mr. Lamb never ran his FF tube or a JP single stage trigger in combat either.
I am curious as to what qualifies YOU to determine what is appropriate for “combat”. Is it all YOUR PERSONAL “combat” experience? Us guys strapping it on and walking the walk want to know if the information we are getting off your site is has been validated by those posting it.
Just curious.
Take care,
This is simple. When you see rails come loose and triggers either go burst or just simply break on the square range, that is called a CLUE that this product is NOT the best choice for combat.
Now I don't know about you, but if gear is not lasting under mild conditions, why would you use it in hostile conditions??????
C4
Todd,
Absolutely not what I’m saying. I completely agree with you. What I’m saying is a man’s background, experience, training all heavily influence the choices we make when it comes to gear, training and tactics etc..
I’m also not saying C4 doesn’t have valuable input or the right to challenge the gear choices of very seasoned soldiers. I’m just looking for a little perspective on his statement.
My perspective is that I do NOT trust ANY drop in, single stage trigger (especially ones with light triggers) for any sort of hard use. Reason? Because every brand I have owned has gone TU on the square range at one time or another. As a dealer for many trigger systems, I am also the one that gets the "unhappy customer" calls when these things go down. This gives me a much wider understanding of what is quality and what is not. Not just a statistical sampling of 1 or 2.
Combat experience with gear is very important I think. Trigger pullers however are not armorers or engineers. They rarely (if ever) get into the meat of the gear to fully understand how it is working (or not working).
To my knowledge, neither the VTAC rail or ANY single stage 3-4lbs trigger has seen combat of any kind. If they have, it has been in VERY small QTYS's and would not give us a large enough statistical sampling to make a judgement call on their quality.
C4
To my knowledge, neither the VTAC rail or ANY single stage 3-4lbs trigger has seen combat of any kind. If they have, it has been in VERY small QTYS's and would not give us a large enough statistical sampling to make a judgement call on their quality.
My unit issued Accuracy Speaks single stage F/A triggers about a year and a half ago. Average pull is a little under 4 pounds. That is all about 50% of my company has used (50 guys or so) and they run fine. According to our Group level maintenance shop they have only had 3 come back to them out of about 300. Mine has outlasted 2 barrels.
Every SPR in the unit has them also.
Good single stage AR triggers exist. However, some of them aren't marketed to the public. I'm not sure if AS will sell them outside of MIL contracts but it's worth a try if anyone has a FA lower or Dept. gun.
My unit issued Accuracy Speaks single stage F/A triggers about a year and a half ago. Average pull is a little under 4 pounds. That is all about 50% of my company has used (50 guys or so) and they run fine. According to our Group level maintenance shop they have only had 3 come back to them out of about 300. Mine has outlasted 2 barrels.
Every SPR in the unit has them also.
Good single stage AR triggers exist. However, some of them aren't marketed to the public. I'm not sure if AS will sell them outside of MIL contracts but it's worth a try if anyone has a FA lower or Dept. gun.
The accuracy speaks triggers are not a drop in unit. They are a custom fit job. What I am talking about are the drop in units from JP, Timney, Chip, etc.
I still do not believe that a 4LBS trigger and under is really a good idea on a combat/HD weapon YMMV.
C4
Not ours. Came in a bag, went in the guns. No fitting required.
I have never understood the hesitation to put lighter trigger on fighting guns as long as they are reliable (**that's the key**). Whatever makes it easier to get rounds on target the fastest. If the mechanics of a trigger make it possible to cause some sort of malfunction, then you should re-look your choice. If I can get a half-pound trigger that goes bang every time with no compromise, sign me up.
I will continue to use my "game gun parts" in combat, like I have for a long time. I'll leave finding the perfect combat gun to those who know better.
Not ours. Came in a bag, went in the guns. No fitting required.
You mean item #8 (single stage service trigger) where the manufacturer SAYS some fitting required? http://accuracyspeaks.com/public_html/parts.htm
CMC triggers are crap. I have never messed with JP other than their adjustable triggers years ago. Timney looks like CMC and I assume them to be crap, too.
Agree. Timney GEN II's are coming along and have heard of only one "burst" incident to date. I have one on a training gun and have been trying to make it break, but no joy yet. All four of my personally owned Timney GEN I's went burst on me.
[I have never understood the hesitation to put lighter trigger on fighting guns as long as they are reliable (**that's the key**). Whatever makes it easier to get rounds on target the fastest. If the mechanics of a trigger make it possible to cause some sort of malfunction, then you should re-look your choice. If I can get a half-pound trigger that goes bang every time with no compromise, sign me up.
My issue and the issue of many others is that under stress, people tend to put their fingers on or near their triggers. A light trigger pull is much more likely to go off than a heavier one. This is most all LE type pistols come with heavy trigger pulls (to help reduce AD/ND).
I guess what I like about 2 stage triggers and 7-9lbs singe stage triggers is that they allow me to change my mind (like if the home invader decides to drop his weapon at the last minute). A 3-4LBS trigger does not give you this option.
C4
You can't blame a light trigger for poor skills. Gun in BG hands, rounds on target. I know Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, and all other solid instructors out there don't train folks to pause and re-assess during trigger pull. That doesn't pass the common sense test.
People's poor trigger discipline is also no excuse for an inefficient trigger.
Aside from the fact that our trigger is different and built to a certain spec written by our force mods shop, how you fit a single stage N/A trigger is beyond me.
You can't blame a light trigger for poor skills. Gun in BG hands, rounds on target. I know Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Kyle Lamb, and all other solid instructors out there don't train folks to pause and re-assess during trigger pull. That doesn't pass the common sense test.
In a perfect world, you are correct. No one I know of lives in this world. This is why LE types tend to get heavy triggers (as no one is perfect).
People's poor trigger discipline is also no excuse for an inefficient trigger.
How you fit a single stage N/A trigger is beyond me.
I do not argue this, but am simply stating the fact that when people get scared/nervous, they tend to put their fingers on triggers. You can argue all you want that this is poor training (which it is), but that is the world we live in.
Fitting triggers is an enjoyable experience that everyone should try. ;)
C4
My issue and the issue of many others is that under stress, people tend to put their fingers on or near their triggers. A light trigger pull is much more likely to go off than a heavier one. This is most all LE type pistols come with heavy trigger pulls (to help reduce AD/ND).
C4
I disagree. Under stress people fall back to the lowest common denominator of their training/reinforcement. If fingers are drifting back towards triggers in a stressful situation a training deficiency is identified. This does not reflect their trainer rather how they (the shooter) have reinforced what has been taught.
As the saying goes..."You will not rise to the occasion...only fall back to your training..."
In addition, the JP drop in trigger is a relatively new part however the single stage adjustable triggers have been around for ages. If fitted and adjusted correctly it has been my experience they are reliable. Again in my experience problems arise when they are incorrectly fitted and/or adjusted too light.
Take care.
Nick
I disagree. Under stress people fall back to the lowest common denominator of their training/reinforcement. If fingers are drifting back towards triggers in a stressful situation a training deficiency is identified. This does not reflect their trainer rather how they (the shooter) have reinforced what has been taught.
Agree. Have you seen the level of training that most Police get?
As the saying goes..."You will not rise to the occasion...only fall back to your training..."
In addition, the JP drop in trigger is a relatively new part however the single stage adjustable triggers have been around for ages. If fitted and adjusted correctly it has been my experience they are reliable. Again in my experience problems arise when they are incorrectly fitted and/or adjusted too light.
Take care.
Nick
The JP drop in has been out for several years now. Their fitted triggers are more reliable I think, but they still have screws holding them together. This is of course not going to be the most reliable setup available.
C4
CarlosDJackal
04-09-08, 11:18
I agree. Lt. Col and Col (and above) tend to stick with people after they leave .mil life. Enlisted rank does not seem to IMHO.
C4
I sometimes call retired E-8s and above by their rank once in a while. But that's assuming I do know this for a fact.
I disagree. Under stress people fall back to the lowest common denominator of their training/reinforcement. If fingers are drifting back towards triggers in a stressful situation a training deficiency is identified. This does not reflect their trainer rather how they (the shooter) have reinforced what has been taught.
While that thought process is true in many instances, there are certain things that happen under stress completely (or at least mostly) separate from training.
There are hours of patrol car video showing that people trained to shoot Weaver and only Weaver nonetheless revert to a more isosceles-like stance under fire. People who shoot with one eye closed on the range almost always shoot with both eyes wide open under stress. People who are absolutely convinced they'll see the top edge of their front sight every shot fired will almost certainly have a threat focus instead of a front sight focus under stress. And under stress, just about anyone may lose what they think is their perfect trigger discipline.
The shooter may not realize it, and in fact may actually "remember" that he didn't do any of these things, but Memorex is a better record than memory. Video tape a group of guys entering a room for Sims or other FOF training and you'll be surprised ... odds are at least some of them will be finger on trigger as they enter. And if the same team does it ten times, you'll probably see that it's not very consistent who does it from run to run. Because well trained people know not to do it, but some little intangible factor causes the finger to find that security blanket once in a while.
This doesn't mean training plays no role, and certainly the more training you have and the more times the "FINGER!" correction is given the less likely you'll be to do it. But it's a disservice to tell yourself you'll never do it, and it's a disservice to say that anyone who's done it is poorly trained. Mistakes happen under stress. Failing to understand and account for that is foolish.
The real question that needs to be asked is whether that lighter trigger pull is actually delivering a practical performance improvement. It's easy to say "lighter trigger means more accuracy" but if you can argue that training will cure all safety problems, I can argue that training will solve all accuracy problems. A happy medium is a better choice than a trigger that is too heavy to shoot well or one that is too light to be safe.
rubberneck
04-09-08, 11:48
The real question that needs to be asked is whether that lighter trigger pull is actually delivering a practical performance improvement. It's easy to say "lighter trigger means more accuracy" but if you can argue that training will cure all safety problems, I can argue that training will solve all accuracy problems. A happy medium is a better choice than a trigger that is too heavy to shoot well or one that is too light to be safe.
For me the real question that needs to be asked is does a seven pound trigger offer any insurance against a ND in a stressful situation than a four pound trigger? IMHO it doesn't. The involuntary reflex to being startled is more than enough to overcome a 10-13 pound trigger let alone a 7 pound one.
For instance A NYPD officer while searching for an armed suspect on the roof of a housing complex two or three years ago killed a 14 year old who startled him when he opened the door the officer was reaching for at the time. As you know the tirggers on the NYPD Glocks are miserable. I just don't buy the argument that a seven pound trigger offers addition protection against a ND in a stressful situation.
rubberneck -- You're certainly correct, a heavier trigger cannot completely prevent an accident. If someone pulls the trigger because he's startled or as a result of sympathetic muscular response, the gun is going to go bang pretty much no matter what trigger it's got on it (unless there is a locked safety in the ON position).
However, there are other ways people have ADs. The fact is that it takes more force to break, say, a 7# trigger than a 3# trigger. That means you're getting more tactile feedback that you're in contact with the trigger before it goes off. That means you need to exert more force to make it go off. It means the inadvertent stress-induced contact with the trigger is less likely to be enough to make the gun go off.
A heavier trigger is not a magical solution to ADs. But one example of one guy having an AD with a heavy trigger doesn't equate to "heavy triggers do nothing to help prevent ADs," either.
When people start putting triggers on carbines and combat pistols that used to be considered appropriate only for tuned sniper rifles and bullseye guns, that's a clue.
But please don't misunderstand my point. I'm not saying the heaviest possible trigger is a good thing. My M&P has the factory 10# trigger mechanism in it which I've had reduced down to about 6#. I've shot M&Ps with 3# triggers and they are sweet but not what I'd consider appropriate for fighting. Super-light triggers have become the internet-cool-guy status symbol, and rarely do much to improve the shooter's ability to put rounds where they need to go under stress.
The real question that needs to be asked is whether that lighter trigger pull is actually delivering a practical performance improvement. It's easy to say "lighter trigger means more accuracy" but if you can argue that training will cure all safety problems, I can argue that training will solve all accuracy problems. A happy medium is a better choice than a trigger that is too heavy to shoot well or one that is too light to be safe.
You bring up a good point about whether or not a light trigger is really needed on a combat (chrome lined) weapon. As we all know, having a trigger pull HEAVIER than the weapon itself leads to poor accuracy. This generally applies to handguns.
On an AR, the weapon generally weighs around 7-10lbs wth a 7-9LBS trigger (factory USGI). This means that an AR's accuracy ability has more to do with ammo selection and the shooters ability than it does with the trigger pull weight. This is why instructors such as Vickers, Rogers, Hackathorn, etc recommend a standard USGI trigger on a fighting weapon.
C4
For me the real question that needs to be asked is does a seven pound trigger offer any insurance against a ND in a stressful situation than a four pound trigger? IMHO it doesn't. The involuntary reflex to being startled is more than enough to overcome a 10-13 pound trigger let alone a 7 pound one.
I think you are right and wrong. Does a 7-9lbs trigger gurantee that an AD or ND will NOT happen? No. Can a 3-4lbs trigger HELP an AD/ND to happen? Yes.
For instance A NYPD officer while searching for an armed suspect on the roof of a housing complex two or three years ago killed a 14 year old who startled him when he opened the door the officer was reaching for at the time. As you know the tirggers on the NYPD Glocks are miserable. I just don't buy the argument that a seven pound trigger offers addition protection against a ND in a stressful situation.
Heavy triggers do not gurantee anything. They do make it that much harder for ND's to happen though.
C4
CarlosDJackal
04-09-08, 12:26
For me the real question that needs to be asked is does a seven pound trigger offer any insurance against a ND in a stressful situation than a four pound trigger? IMHO it doesn't. The involuntary reflex to being startled is more than enough to overcome a 10-13 pound trigger let alone a 7 pound one.
For instance A NYPD officer while searching for an armed suspect on the roof of a housing complex two or three years ago killed a 14 year old who startled him when he opened the door the officer was reaching for at the time. As you know the tirggers on the NYPD Glocks are miserable. I just don't buy the argument that a seven pound trigger offers addition protection against a ND in a stressful situation.
I'm sorry, but that example you gave (above) goes against your argument. Here is an Officer who had a ND while using a pistol that has at least an 8-pound trigger (maybe more). What makes you think that if he had a 2-pound trigger that things would have been different? Or would the Officer have emptied the whole magazine (exaggeration for emphasis)?
Heavy triggers are not just preventive measures for NDs during high-stress situations, they are also preventive measures against NDs during low or no-stress situations. All my duty and off-duty guns (Glock 35, 23, & 26) have the 3.5# connector/NY1 trigger spring combination. While I installed this because I prefer the feel, this configuration has prevented me from accidentally pulling the trigger when retrieving my handgun from a container (I am not allowed to carry in my regular job so I have to unholster and holster my gun multiple times in a day). In reaching for the gun while it's in my car console, I have accidentally (or negligently depending on your point-of-view) put one of my fingers on the trigger. The only reason I did not have an ND is because the trigger weight was enough to indicate to me that I was putting pressure on the trigger. I am confident that if it had been the factory, I would have a hole through my center console.
A light trigger is great for guns that require extreme accuracy (Sniper rifles, target pistols, etc). But the trigger on the duty and/or carry gun should only be light or heavy enough so that the shooter can achieve "Combat Accuracy" under without compromising safety under ALL conditions. Mind you that heavy triggers prevent NDs just as much as safeties and decockers. These are all mechanical devices that can be over-ridden by the user (by design). JM2CW.
I would like to clear a couple things up on this thread (which have gone way off track). I am not questioning Mr. Lambs shooting ability, background or experience level. If he thinks that a light single stage trigger is the best option for him, then great. Far be it for me to tell him how to configure his personal weapon.
C4
Carlos -- really great post. I always liked the 3.5/NY1 setup, myself. It gives you some resistance to the trigger pull right from the beginning which, as you experienced, can be a very good thing during administrative handling when we're not pegging the perfection meter that day.
My issue and the issue of many others is that under stress, people tend to put their fingers on or near their triggers. A light trigger pull is much more likely to go off than a heavier one. This is most all LE type pistols come with heavy trigger pulls (to help reduce AD/ND).
I guess what I like about 2 stage triggers and 7-9lbs singe stage triggers is that they allow me to change my mind (like if the home invader decides to drop his weapon at the last minute). A 3-4LBS trigger does not give you this option.
C4
I think a lot of people have a hard time excepting this second idea. If you make the decision to pull the trigger, how in the world can you take it back before the weapon discharges, unless you hesitate in mid trigger pull? Three years ago, I did not buy this argument. I certainly do now.
In my short time in LE, I have experienced two separate cases where this exact thing has happened. The first case involved an uncooperative, potentially armed (handgun) suspect about 7 yards away from me with his hands behind his back. My partner and I both had some cover, weapons drawn, and were telling the suspect to show his hands and lay one the ground. My finger was not on the frame. It was on the trigger. The guy suddenly brings both hands from behind his back. I pull the trigger on my Sig P220 DA/SA, but realize that his hands are both empty. I managed to not fire a round. I still have no idea how. I remember seeing the hammer move backwards in my peripheral vision (I was watching him, not my sights). He was arrested without further incident. We both got lucky.
In the second case my partner and I were in a foot pursuit when the suspect went around a corner. We took the corner wide and when we saw him again (there was less than 10 feet between us and the suspect), I realized he was digging with his right hand in his front waistband. I drew my weapon while running and yelled "He's reaching!" Of course I had no idea if it was dope, a gun, or what. Then the jackass turns his torso towards us while he is still running and I see the pistol in his right hand sweeping towards us. His movement slows him down so we are now at damn near bad breath distance. I try to move laterally (rather tough when running at full speed!) and pull the trigger. At the same instant I decide to shoot I see my partner flying horizontally through the air straight at the suspect. Again, somehow my gun does not discharge. I still do not know how. He drops the gun when he takes a hard hit from my 6' 250 lb partner. He fights a little, but we get him restrained without too much trouble. Turns out the magazine fell out of his Hi-Point when he yanked it out of his pants and there was not a round in the chamber. We found the loaded magazine when we retraced our steps from the foot pursuit. It also turns out my partner never saw the gun until after we got the guy cuffed. We both learned a valuable lesson that night. :D
So, I would not discount the idea that a slightly heavier trigger may indeed keep you from shooting someone that may not need to be shot. In neither case do I believe I "hesitated". My mind made a decision to stop without me having to actually form the thought. Would either shoot above have been justified? You bet. Would I have lost sleep had I shot either one of those guys. I doubt it. But it sure saved everyone involved a lot of trouble.
I too like the idea of a reasonably heavier trigger pull on a fighting gun. Will it prevent AD's/NA's? Perhaps, but probably in only 1 out of 100 cases. Will a lighter trigger help put rounds on target faster? Perhaps, but maybe only in 1 out of 100 cases. I am thinking of a 5-9 lb trigger pull versus a 3lb or so. I think everyone should use whatever works for them (within reason), but I'll take the 5-9 pounder please. :)
Oh, ya. And the new Smith rifle looks good to! Sorry for the drift.
If you guys could see all the "gamer" shit guys use in combat the internet might implode...
Comps, mags wells, 3 pound triggers on M4s, stainless match barrels..
Some of the best fighters I ever saw carried comp'd, double stack, stainless 1911s with Bo-Mars and big mag wells...and still do today.
Everyone's heroes use a bunch of SERPA holsters!
Eotech 551s are still the go-to optic.
The list of stuff people on the internet say is garbage sure gets a lot of use from the guys at the front. Whatever helps get rounds on target the fastest, period.
M4Guru,
My experience mirrors yours in reference to "gamer" accessories. Many of the Officers on my agency that carry 1911's have Bo-Mar sights, mag wells, extended slide or magazine releases, etc.
I know of a few Officers that carry JP Enterprises Inc rifles with VTAC fore ends, muzzle brakes, etc.
One of our SWAT Sgt's was involved in a Officer Involved Shooting and was using his JP Enterprises Inc CRT-02 rifle as his patrol / SWAT rifle: ( http://www.jprifles.com/display.php?img=CTR02H2ws ) ..... He was a competitive 3 gun shooter and used the rifle in competiton and at work.
Most people on this forum would not consider the JP CRT-02 "good enough" to be used as a duty gun. But there are people who go into harm's way that use "gamer guns" or "gamer accessories" on their duty guns.
I often find on internet forums that many people forget about the *human element* and focus on gear.
S/F,
Jeff
I think a lot of people have a hard time excepting this second idea. If you make the decision to pull the trigger, how in the world can you take it back before the weapon discharges, unless you hesitate in mid trigger pull? Three years ago, I did not buy this argument. I certainly do now.
In my short time in LE, I have experienced two separate cases where this exact thing has happened. The first case involved an uncooperative, potentially armed (handgun) suspect about 7 yards away from me with his hands behind his back. My partner and I both had some cover, weapons drawn, and were telling the suspect to show his hands and lay one the ground. My finger was not on the frame. It was on the trigger. The guy suddenly brings both hands from behind his back. I pull the trigger on my Sig P220 DA/SA, but realize that his hands are both empty. I managed to not fire a round. I still have no idea how. I remember seeing the hammer move backwards in my peripheral vision (I was watching him, not my sights). He was arrested without further incident. We both got lucky.
In the second case my partner and I were in a foot pursuit when the suspect went around a corner. We took the corner wide and when we saw him again (there was less than 10 feet between us and the suspect), I realized he was digging with his right hand in his front waistband. I drew my weapon while running and yelled "He's reaching!" Of course I had no idea if it was dope, a gun, or what. Then the jackass turns his torso towards us while he is still running and I see the pistol in his right hand sweeping towards us. His movement slows him down so we are now at damn near bad breath distance. I try to move laterally (rather tough when running at full speed!) and pull the trigger. At the same instant I decide to shoot I see my partner flying horizontally through the air straight at the suspect. Again, somehow my gun does not discharge. I still do not know how. He drops the gun when he takes a hard hit from my 6' 250 lb partner. He fights a little, but we get him restrained without too much trouble. Turns out the magazine fell out of his Hi-Point when he yanked it out of his pants and there was not a round in the chamber. We found the loaded magazine when we retraced our steps from the foot pursuit. It also turns out my partner never saw the gun until after we got the guy cuffed. We both learned a valuable lesson that night. :D
So, I would not discount the idea that a slightly heavier trigger may indeed keep you from shooting someone that may not need to be shot. In neither case do I believe I "hesitated". My mind made a decision to stop without me having to actually form the thought. Would either shoot above have been justified? You bet. Would I have lost sleep had I shot either one of those guys. I doubt it. But it sure saved everyone involved a lot of trouble.
I too like the idea of a reasonably heavier trigger pull on a fighting gun. Will it prevent AD's/NA's? Perhaps, but probably in only 1 out of 100 cases. Will a lighter trigger help put rounds on target faster? Perhaps, but maybe only in 1 out of 100 cases. I am thinking of a 5-9 lb trigger pull versus a 3lb or so. I think everyone should use whatever works for them (within reason), but I'll take the 5-9 pounder please. :)
Good stories and thank you for sharing.
C4
rubberneck
04-09-08, 14:23
I'm sorry, but that example you gave (above) goes against your argument. Here is an Officer who had a ND while using a pistol that has at least an 8-pound trigger (maybe more). What makes you think that if he had a 2-pound trigger that things would have been different? Or would the Officer have emptied the whole magazine (exaggeration for emphasis)?
That was my whole point. Heavier triggers don't prevent ND under stressful situations. Doesn't matter if it is a ten pound trigger or a three pound. Saying that a 4 pound AR trigger is an ND waiting to happen while a 7 pound is good to go misses that point. Mind you I am not talking about non-stressful or no stress situations as that isn't the point that I was addressing.
HELLO! stuff the trigger talk. go to the trigger section. this thread is for the S&W M&P. hi jack, sorry jacks off !:confused:
rubberneck
04-10-08, 08:47
HELLO! stuff the trigger talk. go to the trigger section. this thread is for the S&W M&P. hi jack, sorry jacks off !:confused:
If Grant doesn't have a problem with discussing triggers in a thread he started than I don't see why you should care. I would suggest that you leave the moderation to the moderators.
Would everyone do me a favor and relax?
If anybody wants to have an in depth discussion on various trigger weights please go start a separate thread for it. It's hard enough to keep this one on track.
Thank you.
If Grant doesn't have a problem with discussing triggers in a thread he started than I don't see why you should care. I would suggest that you leave the moderation to the moderators.
geez, rubbberneck you really got your panties in a wad. please look at the title of this thread. where does it say "trigger talk"? i thought highjacking was a rude thing to do to a thread. i don`t know what grant has to do with the stated title of this thread. rubberneck, i`m not trying to piss you off , i just think you are off base.
HELLO! stuff the trigger talk. go to the trigger section. this thread is for the S&W M&P. hi jack, sorry jacks off!
geez, rubbberneck you really got your panties in a wad. please look at the title of this thread. where does it say "trigger talk"? i thought highjacking was a rude thing to do to a thread. i don`t know what grant has to do with the stated title of this thread. rubberneck, i`m not trying to piss you off , i just think you are off base.
Carbean,
Calling someone a jack off and telling them their panties are in a wad will piss anyone off. While you may be correct about the thread going off on a tangent, your manner of address is highly inappropriate.
NoBody
Carbean,
Calling someone a jack off and telling them their panties are in a wad will piss anyone off. While you may be correct about the thread going off on a tangent, your manner of address is highly inappropriate.
NoBodysorry, i didn`t call anybody a jack off. if you read the whole thing it started hi jack, jacks off. nothing intended. just a rambling pertaining to the subject going off course. keep in mind the old saying : if you are going to run with the big dogs at night , you can`t be pissing with the puppys in the morning. have a good weekend.
LOL! No worries, mate. You have a great "All American" weekend as well. ;)
Grant
You wrote earlier that this rifle will have M4 feedramps. Do you know if Smith is incorporating them into all their rifles?
Grant
You wrote earlier that this rifle will have M4 feedramps. Do you know if Smith is incorporating them into all their rifles?
I think in the very near future, we will see S&W AR's with M4 barrel extensions and M4 upper receivers.
C4
I think in the very near future, we will see S&W AR's with M4 barrel extensions and M4 upper receivers.
C4
Then, all they need to do is switch to the 1:7 barrel twist! ;)
Then, all they need to do is switch to the 1:7 barrel twist! ;)
Stranger things have happened. ;)
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-26-08, 18:36
I've been looking at building a rifle around the Vtac Handguard, so I've looked at the Noveske and JP rifles to see what they have and their cost point, and read a bunch about them.
It seems the JP ($1775) is aimed at 3-gunners, the Noveske ($1815) more as a duty gn, and this new S&W M&P (wow, they like the '&' symbol) seems like it might be targeted at the LEO market? Someone said they wold be about $1500, but I see $1770 on line. The S&W seems like it will be cheaper than the others, when you plus-minus things like sights, but not by much, maybe $100-200$ (I don't know about$ that light on the S&W, I'd rather have sights). Maybe S&W can mass produce them for department buys at a much lower price than the JP and the Noveske, or do bundling with their M&P pistols.
It does seem strange to see so many iterations of the rifle, with not that much
On the single stage light trigger, it seems you can argue back and forth about competition versus combat and LEO work, but doesn't it come down to liability in the LEO arena that makes them put heavier triggers in guns?
Most shotguns (especially worn 870s) have a short, lightish trigger don't they?
Three VTAC rifles, and none are exactly what I'm looking for.
FMCDH
Robb Jensen
05-26-08, 19:56
Three VTAC rifles, and none are exactly what I'm looking for.
FMCDH
Sounds like you need to build your own rifle using parts to your spec.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-26-08, 23:00
Sounds like you need to build your own rifle using parts to your spec.
Or buy all three ;)
I have a stripped lower that I'm thinking of using. Really waiting for a UBR stock and a Giessele trigger.
FMCDH
I've been looking at building a rifle around the Vtac Handguard, so I've looked at the Noveske and JP rifles to see what they have and their cost point, and read a bunch about them.
It seems the JP ($1775) is aimed at 3-gunners, the Noveske ($1815) more as a duty gn, and this new S&W M&P (wow, they like the '&' symbol) seems like it might be targeted at the LEO market? Someone said they wold be about $1500, but I see $1770 on line. The S&W seems like it will be cheaper than the others, when you plus-minus things like sights, but not by much, maybe $100-200$ (I don't know about$ that light on the S&W, I'd rather have sights). Maybe S&W can mass produce them for department buys at a much lower price than the JP and the Noveske, or do bundling with their M&P pistols.
It does seem strange to see so many iterations of the rifle, with not that much
On the single stage light trigger, it seems you can argue back and forth about competition versus combat and LEO work, but doesn't it come down to liability in the LEO arena that makes them put heavier triggers in guns?
Most shotguns (especially worn 870s) have a short, lightish trigger don't they?
Three VTAC rifles, and none are exactly what I'm looking for.
FMCDH
You are correct. A light single stage trigger is a liability on a combat AR (duty/HD weapon).
C4
just for he record, what exactly defines a "V-Tac" rifle from the AR in other configurations?
Jay Cunningham
05-27-08, 11:45
just for he record, what exactly defines a "V-Tac" rifle from the AR in other configurations?
It has Kyle Lamb's name on it.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-08, 12:54
You are correct. A light single stage trigger is a liability on a combat AR (duty/HD weapon).
C4
Just to clarify, I meant Laibility as in Lawyer, not liability as in wearing a ballerina tutu when you get thrown in jail.
My experience with combat can best be summed up by DeNiro's character Sam in movie Ronin when he is asked if he ever killed anyone.
"I hurt somebody's feelings once."
It has Kyle Lamb's name on it.
It would also have some VTAC hardware on it that is somewhat uniquely VTAC....like the forearm (rather than full rails at 12, 3, 6 & 9...VTAC tubes have rails that attach to the tube in certain places).....but nothing that I know of that makes it an entirely different animal from other quality builds. Just configured with some VTAC options preferred by Mr. Lamb & Co.
It has Kyle Lamb's name on it.
honestly? is that it?
I'm still quite fuzzy on what separates all the different designations - SPR, Recce, DMR, etc. they all seem very similar to me...
Jay Cunningham
05-27-08, 13:20
honestly? is that it?
I'm still quite fuzzy on what separates all the different designations - SPR, Recce, DMR, etc. they all seem very similar to me...
It has some characteristics that are more in line with a game gun but other than that it's just an AR. I'm sure that it performs well.
just for he record, what exactly defines a "V-Tac" rifle from the AR in other configurations?
His rail, and weapon setup (trigger, stock, etc).
C4
Two quick questions...
(1) H-Buffer on these?
(2) What are they suppose to retail for?
** was looking through this thread and found some of my other questions on this model answered (M4 feedramps & 1:7 twist). :D
Two quick questions...
(1) H-Buffer on these?
(2) What are they suppose to retail for?
** was looking through this thread and found some of my other questions on this model answered (M4 feedramps & 1:7 twist). :D
Are you asking about S&W AR's?
C4
Are you asking about S&W AR's?
C4
Yes, sorry...specifically the M&P VTAC. :D
Yes, sorry...specifically the M&P VTAC. :D
Roger. No to quesion one and we will most likely sell these for around $1200.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-08, 21:59
Roger. No to quesion one and we will most likely sell these for around $1200.
C4
$1200, now that is an interesting price. Do you think they would ever just sell the upper?
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-27-08, 23:55
I just got Lamb's book, skimmed it all and read some of it.
I can't seem to find a bio on him anywhere, and everyone here talks about it tangentially. I'm guessing he's a former Delta guy? Is there an official bio on him, or would you have to kill me after I read it?
I think he should do a follow on book about tactics with related stories, that he could tell, if there are any.
FMCDH
Jay Cunningham
05-28-08, 00:17
He is former CAG.
$1200, now that is an interesting price. Do you think they would ever just sell the upper?
Doubt it.
C4
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