View Full Version : Current SigSauer Options
After years of carrying the SigSauer DA/SA .40 226 and 239, my agency is evaluating if this platform still best serves our needs. We've reached out to SigSauer, S&W, FNH, and Glock (I hope to add HK to that list) to discuss their current offerings. SigSauer was the first to reply.
One suggestion was the DA/SA 229. With the EE grips, this will somewhat aid for concealment with plainclothes and off-duty officers. The EE grips might allow our current 239 officers to transition back to a fullsize weapon. The SigSauer represenative stated that some agencies have chosen the 229 becuase the longer barrel of the 226 pushes into the car seat, off balancing the officer. Obviously, transition time would be minimal with this option.
The second offering is the 229DAK. Many of our instructors would prefer to move to a pistol with a consistent trigger press. That said, the 229DAK doesn't exactly fit that description.
Lastly, we have the SIG 250. The represenative admitted that the 250 had had reliability issues, but these have supposedly be remedied. He did state that the 250 was not the best weapon for a high volume shooter.
Any experience or insight on these weapons, especially in a law enforcement or military setting? While I know many agencies use DA/SA Sig's, I'd be interested to learn of agencies that use the DAK or the 250.
Thanks and be safe.
My PD has issued Sig pistols, P220/P226 and some P229's, since the early 1990's. We just ordered another batch. Most officers select the P226. These are .40 weapons. I have not heard any complaints about the gun being uncomfortable in the seated position.
The E2 grip is a good thing. It allows the shooter to get a bit more finger on the trigger and makes the DA pull a bit easier.
Avoid the DAK trigger like the plague. It is a very diffiicult system to manage. The 2nd shot has a heavier pull than the 1st. I dont know anyone that shoots it better than the DA/SA trigger.
Sig has been our duty weapon since 1987. Our primary is the 226, and the 239 for any plain clothe I fficer or det's that rewuest one.
I agree with the last post, the DAK trigger is horrendous. We have stuck with the DA/SA and besides transition for officers from NYPD we have been very satisfied.
On a side note we have been discussing switching to the 229 for both patrol and detectives.
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We had P226s until recently, DAKs for the last 5-6 years. Almost universally hated and qualification scores went down from when we had the DA/SA version. The E2 grips did help some shooters. I would be fine with the P226 or P229 as long as it was DA/SA, E2 grips would be preferred.
I don't have any direct experience with the 250 but a neighboring agency tested them and had a very bad experience (including one blowing up on one of the armorers).
FWIW, we recently switched to Glock 35s and everyone is pleased with the switch.
ETA: regarding the length issue and sitting, I never heard any complaints with the P226 and haven't heard any with the new G35s, which are even longer.
After years of carrying the SigSauer DA/SA .40 226 and 239, my agency is evaluating if this platform still best serves our needs. We've reached out to SigSauer, S&W, and Glock (I hope to add HK to that list) to discuss their current offerings. SigSauer was the first to reply.
When considering your duty gun options, measure grip circumferences and trigger reach. Then, consider corresponding dimensions of a broad range of your shooters.
One suggestion was the DA/SA 229. With the EE grips, this will somewhat aid for concealment with plainclothes and off-duty officers.
While I'm not opposed to a compromise solution in a duty gun selection, it's just that...a compromise. I favored the G23 for a long time as general issue, allowing uniform and plain clothes capability with OD/CCW possibilities. When I got down into the weeds, it wasn't so favorable. (The G19 isn't as compromised, but there is still give.)
The 229 remains a big gun. If not in slide and grip length, in girth and weight distribution. Excellent holsters are essential.
The Sig experience of others I'm familiar with is instructive. Those pairing 226s with 239s are more satisfied than those trying the one-gun solution. Most of the latter, a P229 DAK.
The SigSauer represenative stated that some agencies have chosen the 229 becuase the longer barrel of the 226 pushes into the car seat, off balancing the officer.
Not sure I get or agree with that. I'll look at some patrol cars for 226 agencies tomorrow. Abnormal seat wear should be the tell?
The second offering is the 229DAK. Many of our instructors would prefer to move to a pistol with a consistent trigger press. That said, the 229DAK doesn't exactly fit that description.
Oh the press is consistent. It's the differential reset that's annoying.
Lastly, we have the SIG 250. The represenative admitted that the 250 had had reliability issues, but these have supposedly be remedied. He did state that the 250 was not the best weapon for a high volume shooter.
My experience with the 250 is light and recreational. Trusted others afflicted with them want them gone. That last statement of your rep is a good indicator of what you're getting.
Any experience or insight on these weapons, especially in a law enforcement or military setting? While I know many agencies use DA/SA Sig's, I'd be interested to learn of agencies that use the DAK or the 250.
If going Sig, I like the P226 and P239 pairing, both with smallest grip configuration available, TDA, and possibly the SRT trigger.
The SigSauer represenative stated that some agencies have chosen the 229 becuase the longer barrel of the 226 pushes into the car seat, off balancing the officer.
Holster ride-height is going to have more to do with that issue. When I carried a Beretta 92 (longer barrel than the P226), I had no issue with the muzzle pressing into my seat, while using a Safariland 6280. At my current department, my Glock 22 sometimes presses into my seat using my issued Blackhawk Serpa Level III holster. I corrected it by getting my hands on their "Mid-Ride" belt loop.
Run far and fast from current Sig offerings. Older Sig trade ins are hit or miss, depending on how many new production parts are in it.
HotSuppa2C1H
06-20-13, 20:21
My department just made the move from 220's to .40 cal 226's with the E2 grip and SRT; I was initially happy with the switch as the new grips and trigger have really improved the feel of the weapon. How ever, upon detail stripping and comparing to my old 220, the internal parts don't inspire confidence with me; looks like the extractor is made at the LEGO factory. Sweet shooting pistol for sure, but definitely not worth what they are asking for them.
Thanks for the responses.
While I agree that our agency should examine current pistol offerings, I want to ensure we're not changing for the sake of change. The 250 and the DAK seem to get poor reviews overall. With our current course of fire and target, we're running remedial training on a regular basis. Moving to a gun that is harder to shoot makes no sense.
I do have concerns about the quality of current SigSauer products. I will recommend detailed armorer inspections of the internal parts of the T&E weapons. While SigSauer has served us well, I'm not certain they offer the best value today.
I don't really see an issue with the 226's off-balancing officers due to barrel length. If that were the case, I suspect I would have heard about it from someone other that a SigSauer salesman.
I would agree that the 226/239 combination is a better option than purchasing 229's all around because the street crime unit wants better concealment and high capacity. I think E2 grips coupled with better holster and belt selection would be a better solution for that unit.
Thank you again for your input. As more T&E weapons arrive, I suspect I will post again. Be safe.
I don't really see an issue with the 226's off-balancing officers due to barrel length. If that were the case, I suspect I would have heard about it from someone other that a SigSauer salesman.
Remember, he's selling. ;)
SmokinSigs357
06-22-13, 10:08
I'm surprised they didn't offer up the new P227, unless your department is caliber specific. The new 227 is a higher capacity .45 with E2 grips. I know that Indiana State Police are currently switching over to them.
When you say you're running remedial training once a week, are you saying that you regularly have officers that are failing your course of fire or am I misunderstanding?
If it is failure of course, is it the gun or the caliber or both? I think .40 is the most difficult caliber to shoot for someone who is new, inexperienced or lacks practice to shoot. If .40 is your designated caliber, and DA/SA is what you're using, I wonder if the two combined are too much for some who have limited experience/limited practice to overcome. Especially if you have a difficult course of fire, which is sounds like you do. Isn't this the reason many departments went to SF pistols or 9mm or both? Just curiosity questions and hope you guys get what works best for you.
Psalms144.1
06-22-13, 11:25
My agency transitioned from older but perfectly serviceable and accurate P228s to P229R DAKs or P239 DAKs (agent's choice), in .40 S&W. I've noticed a significant across the board drop in qualification scores from those who still carry their issued pistol (a huge percentage of my agency opts to carry an authorized personal weapon). We've also had a variety of reliability issues, especially with the P239s.
For myself, I notice a measurable drop in accuracy from my old P228 to my new issued P229 (made back in 2009ish, under the DHS contract), in deliberate, rested shooting at longer ranges. Likewise, the DAK trigger, with it's choice of a LONG reset PAST the first "reset" point, or a medium reset with a heavier follow up pull, is a lot harder for me to shoot well at speed than the P228s traditional DA/SA pull.
I'm STRONGLY against the idea of one pistol for everyone, unless that pistol is VERY easy to configure to various shooters, like the P30. In fact, if I were looking for a "one gun fits all" solution, and had the money to buy Sigs, I'd opt for the P30 in a heartbeat - though I'd probably go for P30Ls for "tactical" guys. If budget is an issue (and if it's not for you, I want to work for your department!), I'd look at the M&Ps in .40.
I used to be a HUGE Sig fan, and absolutely love my older, pre-2005 Sigs in 9mm. I don't believe that the Sig brand delivers the value for the money that it used to, and, any salesman who even OFFERS the P250 for consideration is someone I wouldn't deal with again.
Regards,
Kevin
I've been using and working on Sigs since the late 1990s. My most prized Sigs are still those from the 1990s. Sigs were originally designed almost entirely as carbon steel, machined part pistols. In this configuration, with good quality controls, the P-series gained high marks for being one of the best service pistols ever made. However, things have changed. Those small internal parts that were originally machined down with high end carbon billet steel are now either cookie cut out of sheets of carbon steel, or are now MIM parts. Those carbon slides with carbon spring steel internal extractors are now soft semi-stainless slides with MIM extractors, and softer alloy frames. I think it is too soon to definatively determine if the latest guns are as good as the old guns, but the quality of the guns can be readily observed. Occasionally I will find a new in box West German P228 or P220 from the 1990s and the quality of those guns are a night and day difference from what you can buy new today. I still use a W. German P220 on duty, which I favor over the other Sig models. The grip angle on the P220 and P210 are more extreme, allowing for the ideal natural pointing and superior shooting without use of your sights. This is one advantage of the Glock grip angle as well. It makes for a much faster competition level first shot, and it is easier to find your sights after additional shots. One thing is for certain, when my shooters use configurations that more naturally fit their hand and point better with minimal effort they end up firing fewer shots under stress to hit their targets. The worse the pistol fits their body type, the more training it takes to become proficient and the more training it takes to stay proficient.
For duty use, I see no reason not to select a polymer framed pistol with interchangible grip panels. 9mm with good quality ammo(a must) as the standard issue, and other optional calibers at the officer's own expense. I prefer .45 myself, but it's tough to impliment it as a general patrol pistol with so many different officer needs. In this day and age, I also find it hard to justify using anything other than a good striker fired patrol pistol versus a hammer fired gun.
I do retain affection for SigSauer pistols since I have been carrying them for so long. That said, I agree that it is difficult to argue against a polymer-framed, striker-fired pistol. While I want to give these weapons the benefit of a fair trial, I am inclined to recommend the M&P series. I would certainly suggest HK, but as Psalms suggest, the budget is an issue.
I have corrected my original post to include FNH on the list of companies that are being evaluated. FNH did recently win a large Maryland police contract and I suspect they are hungry for more.
Striker, while it is not every week that we have to run remedial training, it is turning out to be every time we qualify. Of late, I have heard suggestions such as not running a Q course during a firearms training day or slightly modifying the Q course so that an officer who fails to qualify hasn't really failed the actual qualification. To my mind, that is simply kicking the can down the street to the next qualification course.
While there are undoubtedly a number of factors that contribute to the failure to qualify rate, I can sum up the culprit is our adaptation of the ILSP-06 target as our qualification target. We examined several targets as a replacement to the B-27 and, unfortunately, selected this one.
Psalms144.1
06-22-13, 21:47
jnc - If I were given the opportunity to assess a new service pistol for my agency, I would start with this question: what caliber?
There are significant arguments to be made for the .40 S&W, given typical uniformed police requirements to shoot through tactical barriers such as auto bodies and glass. However, and I would certainly yield to Doc's expertise in this, I'm not sure that the 9mm is far enough behind in today's age of high performance projectiles to make the heavier recoil, increased muzzle flip, accelerated weapon wear, and capacity loss worth the potential gain from the larger caliber. The .357 Sig is, IMHO, a "niche" caliber that's not really worth much consideration, as it suffers all of the .40's disadvantages, and offers no real performance enhancement with the POSSIBLE exception of long range accuracy. And, lastly, while I will probably be labeled a heathen for saying it, the .45 ACP is a weak sister in duty calibers, since you have the "choices" of cutting your typical capacity in half, or dealing with grip size(s) that a lot of officers/agents can't handle (pardon the pun).
Choice of caliber would have a significant impact on candidates, in my mind. For me, if I was sticking with the .40 S&W, I'd avoid the Glock line in anything smaller than a G22. As several others have noted more eloquently than I, when you get much below the G22 size/weight in .40 S&W, shootability really starts to suffer. Likewise, if the 9mm was the way to go, I'd be leery of the M&P line because of accuracy issues, which may or may not be resolved.
I'll freely admit that I don't know enough about the FN lineup to have an informed opinion. I know LOTS of people who rave about Walther's current pistols, but, again, I have no personal experience with them. And, like I stated above, the HK line is VERY spendy, though you're likely to get the least "drama" out of them (reliability wise), and they're probably the most accurate "duty" pistols available today. The LEM is also a decent combat trigger, but requires some training to get the hang of it...
Best of luck in your decision, and let us know how it turns out!
Cops are notoriously cheap. It is telling that a full 25% of our agents have gone out of pocket to avoid carrying the SIG P229 DAK. Run. Run far and fast from SIG-Sauer.
jnc - If I were given the opportunity to assess a new service pistol for my agency, I would start with this question: what caliber?
There are significant arguments to be made for the .40 S&W, given typical uniformed police requirements to shoot through tactical barriers such as auto bodies and glass. However, and I would certainly yield to Doc's expertise in this, I'm not sure that the 9mm is far enough behind in today's age of high performance projectiles to make the heavier recoil, increased muzzle flip, accelerated weapon wear, and capacity loss worth the potential gain from the larger caliber. The .357 Sig is, IMHO, a "niche" caliber that's not really worth much consideration, as it suffers all of the .40's disadvantages, and offers no real performance enhancement with the POSSIBLE exception of long range accuracy. And, lastly, while I will probably be labeled a heathen for saying it, the .45 ACP is a weak sister in duty calibers, since you have the "choices" of cutting your typical capacity in half, or dealing with grip size(s) that a lot of officers/agents can't handle (pardon the pun).
Choice of caliber would have a significant impact on candidates, in my mind. For me, if I was sticking with the .40 S&W, I'd avoid the Glock line in anything smaller than a G22. As several others have noted more eloquently than I, when you get much below the G22 size/weight in .40 S&W, shootability really starts to suffer. Likewise, if the 9mm was the way to go, I'd be leery of the M&P line because of accuracy issues, which may or may not be resolved.
I'll freely admit that I don't know enough about the FN lineup to have an informed opinion. I know LOTS of people who rave about Walther's current pistols, but, again, I have no personal experience with them. And, like I stated above, the HK line is VERY spendy, though you're likely to get the least "drama" out of them (reliability wise), and they're probably the most accurate "duty" pistols available today. The LEM is also a decent combat trigger, but requires some training to get the hang of it...
Best of luck in your decision, and let us know how it turns out!
I find it very difficult to find anything in this post, or Psalm 144.1's previous post, do disagree with. Glocks or M&Ps for striker fired pistols (M&P slightly preferred in .40 though Gen4 Glocks are solid in .40) and HK for hammer fired. Sigs are still acceptable IMO but not preferred.
Coal Dragger
06-23-13, 02:54
Anecdotally I own and shoot a P229 DAK, I regret the purchase quite a bit in all honesty. Even though the gun has been reliable for me, and is mechanically accurate, particularly with the .357 SIG barrel, the trigger is just horrible. I thought I would like it and get used to it, but after several years of ownership and several attempts to get used to the trigger I have given up.
In short the DAK trigger is a steaming pile of shit. I suppose if you want your time to be wasted in training, and your officers to have a look of constant annoyance and frustration on their face come qualification time the DAK is a great way to go. Otherwise if you are looking for a trigger that makes it easier to direct bullets where you want them to go look for something else.
Nephrology
06-23-13, 06:25
I do retain affection for SigSauer pistols since I have been carrying them for so long. That said, I agree that it is difficult to argue against a polymer-framed, striker-fired pistol. While I want to give these weapons the benefit of a fair trial, I am inclined to recommend the M&P series. I would certainly suggest HK, but as Psalms suggest, the budget is an issue.
I have corrected my original post to include FNH on the list of companies that are being evaluated. FNH did recently win a large Maryland police contract and I suspect they are hungry for more.
Striker, while it is not every week that we have to run remedial training, it is turning out to be every time we qualify. Of late, I have heard suggestions such as not running a Q course during a firearms training day or slightly modifying the Q course so that an officer who fails to qualify hasn't really failed the actual qualification. To my mind, that is simply kicking the can down the street to the next qualification course.
While there are undoubtedly a number of factors that contribute to the failure to qualify rate, I can sum up the culprit is our adaptation of the ILSP-06 target as our qualification target. We examined several targets as a replacement to the B-27 and, unfortunately, selected this one.
Just an unsolicited opinion from a non-LEO, but I would very seriously consider the .40 caliber offerings from Glock (Gen 4) and Smith and Wesson (M&P).
Gary1911A1
06-23-13, 06:32
I can remember when Sig came out with their DAK and all the gun rags reviewed it as the next best thing to sliced bread. It is terrible and another reason I'm letting all my gun rag subscriptions expire. Like others here I like the early 90s' Sigs, but striker fired polymer pistols seem to be the future. I have no experience with FN other than the FNS, HK sounds to be out of your budget, leaving Glock and M&P with the most track record so I would look there.
Anecdotally I own and shoot a P229 DAK, I regret the purchase quite a bit in all honesty. Even though the gun has been reliable for me, and is mechanically accurate, particularly with the .357 SIG barrel, the trigger is just horrible. I thought I would like it and get used to it, but after several years of ownership and several attempts to get used to the trigger I have given up.
In short the DAK trigger is a steaming pile of shit. I suppose if you want your time to be wasted in training, and your officers to have a look of constant annoyance and frustration on their face come qualification time the DAK is a great way to go. Otherwise if you are looking for a trigger that makes it easier to direct bullets where you want them to go look for something else.
I agree with your assessment of the DAK trigger. You may want to purchase the parts needed to convert your gun to DA/SA. Last time I did this I believe it cost me about $75.
Anecdotally I own and shoot a P229 DAK, I regret the purchase quite a bit in all honesty. Even though the gun has been reliable for me, and is mechanically accurate, particularly with the .357 SIG barrel, the trigger is just horrible. I thought I would like it and get used to it, but after several years of ownership and several attempts to get used to the trigger I have given up.
In short the DAK trigger is a steaming pile of shit. I suppose if you want your time to be wasted in training, and your officers to have a look of constant annoyance and frustration on their face come qualification time the DAK is a great way to go. Otherwise if you are looking for a trigger that makes it easier to direct bullets where you want them to go look for something else.
Have you thought about converting your Sig to a traditional DA/SA trigger? You can buy the necessary parts and do it yourself.
When I bought my former duty gun (P226R DAK .357) a little while back the first thing I did was change to DA/SA. Parts were right at $100.
Coal Dragger
06-24-13, 02:05
Have you thought about converting your Sig to a traditional DA/SA trigger? You can buy the necessary parts and do it yourself.
I'm on the fence about just getting rid of it, and trading it off on something else. Maybe another .45ACP something since I have a progressive reloading press set up in .45ACP.
A couple of shifts have had the opportunity to test-fire the T&E weapons. There was absolutely no love for the DAK or the 250. There was not a lot of enthusiasm for the 229 DA/SA with E2 grips, but we have not had any of our 239 officers try that weapon.
I had the opportunity to put some rounds (less than fifty) down range with the 229DAK and the 250 tonight. I absolutely hated the 250. The 229DAK was not as bad as I thought it would be. That said, the number of ICE officers purchasing G-17's as an alternative strikes me as a clue.
I'll keep you updated.
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