View Full Version : Another 1911 Thread - Need Advice
I have owned a couple 1911 pistols over the years but they were not all they were cracked up to be. One was a Springfield I bought back in the early 90’s from a co-worker who had a butcher of a gunsmith work on it. It was a disaster and I got taken to the cleaners on it. The other was a Kimber Custom II that never really worked that well. I could never find a combination of magazines and ammo that worked well for me. Both of these guns left me thinking a little less of the 1911 platform.
Now fast forward to this past weekend. I friend and fellow instructor lent me one of his Les Baer custom 1911’s (I believe it was a Custom Combat). I shot just under 500 rounds out of this pistol with not one failure of any kind. I also shot it very well. It points naturally and the trigger was great. I would say it broke in the 4-5 pound range and very crisp as you would imagine in a $2K 1911 pistol. This pistol is pretty old and I have seen my friend shoot this pistol very well for many years. He is a died in the wool “1911 guy”. He has 10 or more really nice custom 1911 guns and I would say ½ of them are more collector’s items and the rest are hard use guns. He swears by Les Baer and the gun he lent me is his back-up to his back-up… Needless to say he make a lot more money than I do.
My question’s are:
• Do I just need to step up into a $2,000 custom/semi-custom 1911? Life has been pretty good to me. It would not be a hardship for me to spend that much on a 1911. But If I do I need it to be as reliable as any machine can be.
• I looked at a Les Baer Custom 1911 at a local gun shop. The pistol was so tight I could hardly move the slide. My friends Les Baer was very smooth and much looser. Not sloppy but it was not at tight as the new one I held at the shop.
• In the 1911 world are Accuracy and Reliability mutually exclusive? In other words would I give up accuracy for extra reliability, if that makes sense. I do not need a pistol that will shoot 1” groups at 75’. I just need reliability and acceptable combat accuracy.
I have given this a lot of though and I am starting to “get it” finally. I think I can see myself with another 1911 in the future. I would appreciate your feedback and advise on this.
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 19:38
I absolutely have a passion for the 1911 but as the very wise Larry Vickers has previously said, the 1911 is a enthusiasts gun NOT a service gun. And he is correct.
With that said the 1911 is much easier to shoot well. I just recently finished 'reassembling' my Springfield Loaded after I did some customizing to it myself. Since reassembling it I've shoot 200 rounds through it to make sure it still works. It did still work and I used it in Sundays USPSA match in Single Stack division. I placed 3rd with it, just under Scott Warren. He beat me by 1.2794 points which came out to .26%.............I thought I did pretty well :) since it's been about 2yrs since I've shot this gun in a match and back then it was an IDPA match not USPSA. I got 72.9927% on the classifier (not bad, it's a high B class performance which is about my average, I'm getting close to A class).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/09ab9ed1.jpg
Say what???
How can it not be a service gun after all those years as a service gun? Would you clarify what he meant by that statement?
Thanks
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 20:34
Say what???
How can it not be a service gun after all those years as a service gun? Would you clarify what he meant by that statement?
Thanks
I agree with what he said and I agree.
You should ask him.
Wish I could ask him that and a lot of other stuff...Like how to shoot better!
Robb Jensen
04-07-08, 20:38
Wish I could ask him that and a lot of other stuff...Like how to shoot better!
His screen name here is simply...you guessed it Larry Vickers! ;) And he's an Industry Professional (green screen name).
My question’s are:
• Do I just need to step up into a $2,000 custom/semi-custom 1911? Life has been pretty good to me. It would not be a hardship for me to spend that much on a 1911. But If I do I need it to be as reliable as any machine can be.
-No, you don't have to spend $2K, my Springfield "loaded" has been just as reliable as my duty Glock 22 or BUG 27. It DID go back to Springfield once at ZERO cost to me, and has been utterly reliable since. Both Glocks had to go to the Dept armorer at least once each also.
• I looked at a Les Baer Custom 1911 at a local gun shop. The pistol was so tight I could hardly move the slide. My friends Les Baer was very smooth and much looser. Not sloppy but it was not at tight as the new one I held at the shop.
-Don't own, nor have I ever shot a Les Baer, so I'll refrain from comment.
• In the 1911 world are Accuracy and Reliability mutually exclusive? In other words would I give up accuracy for extra reliability, if that makes sense. I do not need a pistol that will shoot 1” groups at 75’. I just need reliability and acceptable combat accuracy.
-I would certainly not say they are mutually exclusive. However, I personally feel that if you strive for "Bullseye" type accuracy in any make pistol, you will do so at the sake of reliability, and that the inverse is true. I do feel there is a balance though. While my 1911 is more accurate than I am, I do not have every tolerance tightened, spring lightened, etc. And I properly maintain it.
Just my opinions.
-RD62
I absolutely have a passion for the 1911 but as the very wise Larry Vickers has previously said, the 1911 is a enthusiasts gun NOT a service gun. And he is correct.
This would certainly play to my own feeling to date. But I have seen everything stop working at some point in training. I have had failures with Glock’s, SiG’s and a few others. I have also seen a 1911 once in a while that just never quits. Many do fail more often than others and that is the reason I am posting these questions. We train in Yakima, WA in a high desert environment. The sand/wind is a killer on most guns. But if a 1911 exists that will work as well as others I would like to know what it is. What makes a great 1911 a great gun? Like any gun I believe the weapon is greater than the sum of its parts.
gotm4 I do appreciate your comments and certainly Larry’s as well.
Do I just need to step up into a $2,000 custom/semi-custom 1911?
Not custom. Just higher priced. Supposedly the higher price is buying you better quality components, superior fit and finish, better accuracy and more reliable operation.
Does it? In my experience, no.
I looked at a Les Baer Custom 1911 at a local gun shop. The pistol was so tight I could hardly move the slide. My friends Les Baer was very smooth and much looser. Not sloppy but it was not at tight as the new one I held at the shop.
I have had similar experiences with new Baer guns. I couldn't believe how tight those suckers were. I'm not a fan of tight guns. If I were looking for a Baer, I'd keep an eye out for a Thunder Ranch with a few hundred rounds through it already.
In the 1911 world are Accuracy and Reliability mutually exclusive?
No.
The thing to ask yourself is "Do I really want to buy a gun that needs so much attention?" I think there are three kinds of 1911 owners.
1. The kind who love their 1911 because they spent a ton on it or it's the only one they own.
2. The kind who hate 1911s because they haven't found a good one yet. (I call these people Glock fans)
3. The kind who have been through the cycle of 1911 fandom and have kept or discarded their 1911s according to their needs.
Further, I think there are three ways to go when it comes to 1911s.
1. Buy something with the features you want (sights, beavertail, checkering, etc) as cheaply as possible. Shoot it until it doesn't work then get another one. This is my disposable 1911 theory.
2. Buy something and send it off for a gunsmith to customize to your specs. I am too impatient for this path, but a lot of people like it. Some folks modify this path by working on it themselves. I equate that to doing engine work on my car. Sure I could, but there are pros out there for that.
3. Take a lot of time finding out what you want, why you want it (examine your needs in detail), and figure out who makes the best product to fit your needs. Then spend the money to get it. Even then, there's no guarantee it'll be what you want it to be.
If you're asking why the 1911 needs so much attention, I'll leave you this one tidbit from the Vickers 1911 Operators class. According to Larry, who has forgotten more about 1911s than I'll ever know, not a single part on a 1911 is a drop in part. Everything EVERYTHING can require gunsmith fitting. I debated this in my mind for a few seconds until he amended the statement by saying that MOST of the time, the grips don't need gunsmith attention. Most of the time. But sometimes, they do.
I don't know if there's anything on a Glock that can't be replaced with a punch, hammer and technical manual. That's why the Glock is a service pistol and the 1911 is an enthusiast pistol.
What makes a 1911 a great gun? Shootability. Superior trigger. Superior ergonomics. Low bore axis. When they work right, they work GREAT.
David Thomas
04-07-08, 22:26
Based on my experience, it is my opinion that a lot of 1911's suffer from the same problems that glocks suffer from - the owner tinkering with the gun when they should just leave it alone. Of course, I am not talking about cleaning and pm, I am talking about swapping parts that the user has no business swapping or polishing parts the user shouldn't be polishing. I have owned 7 different 1911's and have seen many thousands of rounds go through two others that belong to one of my shooting partners. Maybe I have been lucky, but all of my 1911's have been as reliable as Glocks except one. The one exception was a Kimber Anniversary model that had a chamber that was too tight and would not feed my 200 grain SWC reloads. I have 3 other Kimbers that have been flawless. My Colt has been flawless, and my RRA has been flawless. I have not shot my other Colt. The thumb safety on my RRA did break, but it never stopped shooting. The thumb safety was replaced by RRA at no charge in a matter of days. I have another RRA 1911 on the way. I expect it to function 100% and to be accurate. You are fully justified for wanting any 1911 that you buy to be accurate and reliable as well.
In an article about AK47's, Pat Rogers quoted someone that said Ak47's are more accurate than people give them credit for and AR15's are more reliable than people think. I think the same thing can be said for Glocks and 1911's. The glock is more accurate than people think and the 1911 is more reliable than people give it credit for.
I realize that there are subpar 1911's and lemons out there, but I also think knowing what to look for and buying from a reputable company is a huge step toward happiness with the 1911.
If you have been less than pleased with Springers and Kimbers in the past and buying a semi custom 1911 for $1,500 - $2,000 gives you more confidence in your gun, then by all means buy a semi custom or custom with the features you desire. I do not think you have to buy a high dollar custom/semi custom to get a good 1911, but I think doing so stacks the deck in your favor.
I also do not think that accuracy and reliability are exclusive concepts.
...the gun he lent me is his back-up to his back-up…have you considered asking your friend if he'd sell this particular gun to you? Can't hurt to ask...
All pistols FAIL, that said for me there is no substitute for a well made 1911. Baer is putting out a very accurate (1.5" at 50yds) and a very reliable weapon. I find it odd that LAV would make that statement when his name has been on a combat 1911 for years and he also offers classes on just the 1911 platform..... He might say he thinks there are better options based on what you are trying to use your weapon for but dont believe he would say that they are not great service pistols. I will discuss it with him at class and bring this post up.
• Do I just need to step up into a $2,000 custom/semi-custom 1911? Life has been pretty good to me. It would not be a hardship for me to spend that much on a 1911. But If I do I need it to be as reliable as any machine can be.
I am in the middle of upgrading my ORM 1991A1 I bought in 1998. I am projecting a cost (including the original price of the pistol and shipping) of $12-1300. Some very basic upgrades (sights, safeties), a de-horning job, and a parkerized finish. i can do without the hand checkered work of art stuff.
I think the big price tags in 1911's come from having work done by a particular master craftsman or having a lot of aesthetic stuff done. "Due to personal preference, I had the mag release milled out of a solid block of platinum".
I think you can get a reliable, fighting 1911 in the 1000-1500 price range. However, I would listen to Larry Vickers or Hilton Yam before I would listen to me.
have you considered asking your friend if he'd sell this particular gun to you? Can't hurt to ask...
I have thought about it but I don’t want to ask. He did offer to loan me a back-up gun at any time once I get my owe 1911. He is a good guy and a great friend.
I spent some time last night looking at the Les Baer website. It looks like the Thunder Ranch gun has the features that I want. This seems to be a pretty straight forward design and well executed. Does anyone have any feedback on the Thunder ranch Special?
3. The kind who have been through the cycle of 1911 fandom and have kept or discarded their 1911s according to their needs.
That's me. :p .... the cycle of buying all the aftermarket mags and gadgetry to try and make the 1911 reliable.
I guess we all have to go thru it sooner or later.
Good overall summary of the 1911 scenario!
A 1911 under $2000 can be a dependable carry/defense firearm. It is not meant for the lowest common denominator, and you really need to be an enthusiastic owner (I used to say "dedicated owner", but LAV gave me a word that fit better).
Think about this for a minute...
You can take a box stock used Kimber or Springfield for around $600. Send it off to a shop that deals with 1911's. I personally like Novak's work and quick turnaround, but there are others, and you can replace all the questionable parts with hardened, hand fitted pieces.
You can get a reliability job, that takes care of many of the issues with tight chamber or rough feedramp, etc.
Get your sights zeroed at 25yds or your preferred zero....with your ammo of choice.
Yet still walk away with a total WELL under $1500, and what will most likely amount to a Glock level of reliability -- or damn close.
You will still need to lube a 1911, and probably clean it every now and then...but I have seen some that didn't need anything to keep running...
I have well over 3500rds on my box stock Kimber Warrior, and up until I took Larry's 1911 Operator's course, I'd never had an issue with it. When I tried to "tune" an extractor without the requisite know-how, I created an issue...:eek:
I got that fixed by a competent gunsmith afterwards. Ironically, even though I screwed up the extractor's grip, the gun still did everything fine -- so long as the mag was inserted. When we test fired with the mag out, I got some weak extraction where the empty fell through the mag well.
Long story short, I trust all my pistols equally. Why? I shoot them quite a bit, and if I ever had an issue they got fixed and then they got gone. I've had very few pistol issues, and only the one issue above was 1911 related.
Alaskapopo
04-08-08, 12:49
A properly set up 1911 will run with any modern auto in the reliablity department. My CQB has gone 2000 rounds without cleaning and without a malfunction firing a variety of ammo from lead semi waddcutters to 200 grain Speer JHP's.
1911's do require more maintance. (more frequent cleaning and changing of springs inspecting the ejector/extractor ect) But if properly maintained there is no better combat sidearm. Hence their popularity amount the best of the best. (ie Marine Force Recon, LAPD SWAT, FBI's HRT, ect)
Pat
BushmasterFanBoy
04-08-08, 13:58
Any 1911 will work just fine, provided the pistol is set up right.
This custom 1911 fad gives the impression that the only 1911 that will function well is one that costs over $2,000 or some other arbitrary number. This simply isn't true. The custom 1911 is made for an individual who is willing to spend a little bit extra on a handgun. The individual might have an appreciation for the little details that go into a custom 1911 and enjoys having a well made weapon. Usually the extra hand work that goes into a custom piece will catch any problems with the pistol that may cause function issues.
A huge factory such as Kimber which throws out thousands of pistols, means that each pistol is less likely to receive the look over which is so critical to making sure the 1911 works properly. Naturally many poor examples are put out.
Take for example my Kimber Warrior. It's been shot to hell, been back to Kimber several times (Extraction issues, tight chamber, poorly shaped slide catch), and been shot some more. It works and shoots better than I can shoot it. I don't think it takes anything more to keep running than my M9, you just need to hold the manufacturer responsible for putting out a shoddy product. Make them fix their mistakes, not some high end gun smith.
Alaskapopo
04-08-08, 20:32
Any 1911 will work just fine, provided the pistol is set up right.
This custom 1911 fad gives the impression that the only 1911 that will function well is one that costs over $2,000 or some other arbitrary number. This simply isn't true. The custom 1911 is made for an individual who is willing to spend a little bit extra on a handgun. The individual might have an appreciation for the little details that go into a custom 1911 and enjoys having a well made weapon. Usually the extra hand work that goes into a custom piece will catch any problems with the pistol that may cause function issues.
A huge factory such as Kimber which throws out thousands of pistols, means that each pistol is less likely to receive the look over which is so critical to making sure the 1911 works properly. Naturally many poor examples are put out.
Take for example my Kimber Warrior. It's been shot to hell, been back to Kimber several times (Extraction issues, tight chamber, poorly shaped slide catch), and been shot some more. It works and shoots better than I can shoot it. I don't think it takes anything more to keep running than my M9, you just need to hold the manufacturer responsible for putting out a shoddy product. Make them fix their mistakes, not some high end gun smith.
Anymore I do think you need a high end 1911 to get a good one. Your Kimber Warrior turned out good. My friends had to go back to the factory 4 times before it ran right. With the high costs of shipping a pistol he could have bought a Wilson.
Pat
Take for example my Kimber Warrior. It's been shot to hell, been back to Kimber several times (Extraction issues, tight chamber, poorly shaped slide catch), and been shot some more. It works and shoots better than I can shoot it. I don't think it takes anything more to keep running than my M9, you just need to hold the manufacturer responsible for putting out a shoddy product. Make them fix their mistakes, not some high end gun smith.
This is what I would like to avoid. I had to send my Kimber back a few times and it still never ran well. But to be fare I had to send one of my Glock 21’s back for service, so stuff does happen. But my Kimber experience more of less turned me off to the 1911. My hope is that a higher end 1911 like the Les Baer I shot last weekend will be a pleasure to shoot and to own. It may never replace my Glock 21 or Glock 19 as my primary carry weapons but I would like to have a reliable 1911 in any case.
Alaskapopo
04-09-08, 01:23
This is what I would like to avoid. I had to send my Kimber back a few times and it still never ran well. But to be fare I had to send one of my Glock 21’s back for service, so stuff does happen. But my Kimber experience more of less turned me off to the 1911. My hope is that a higher end 1911 like the Les Baer I shot last weekend will be a pleasure to shoot and to own. It may never replace my Glock 21 or Glock 19 as my primary carry weapons but I would like to have a reliable 1911 in any case.
The advantage of buying a high quality high end 1911 is that lemons are extremely rare with these guns because a lot more time and effort is put into them and they are actually test fired before they leave the factory with more than 5 rounds (unlike Kimber).
Kimber started out great but they let their quality control drop as their popularity increased.
Pat
Gunfighter13
04-09-08, 02:24
If money is no issue:
Ted Yost $3500.00 and up.
http://www.louderthanwords.us/
Les Baer $1900.00 to $4000.00
http://www.lesbaer.com/recon.html
Ed Brown $2200.00 to $2600.00
http://edbrown.com/htmlos.cgi/00889.1.1064667990316099225
Do you need to spend 2000 plus to get a good 1911? No, but plan on spending around $1500.00 for one with all the options.
My two recommendations are the Springfield Operator or the Kimber Warrior. Both will serve you well and come with all the standard options. You will make changes before long or you will buy a second one, and a third, and a fourth.......
Edit to add:
You said that your Kimber turned you off on 1911's. That tends to happen to more people than will admit it. Most 1911 guys can fix most any problem they encounter with their gun and if not they know who to send it to. I do not have any of my 1911's set up the same. All are tuned to the ammo that is carried and/or shot through the gun. Something you should also think about is that most new mid and high priced guns will need a break-in if bought new. Most are real tight from the factory. May have been your issue with your Kimber. Do the break-in round count before doing any adjustments or sending your gun back. Use good magazines (number one issue with 1911's). Use good ammo. Use good lube and lube it often.
A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. 1911's are the most "shootable" pistols I have ever used; I have several 1911's that I have carried on duty, as they are equally reliable, but much more accurate than my 9 mm Glocks. During our local SWAT pistol training certification, I fired 1200 witnessed and documented rounds in 5 days through a C&S customized Colt 1991A1 with ZERO failures to feed or function. I have an additional Colt 1991A1 done by Novak's that is equally reliable. Likewise I have several Colt and SA 1911's that Chuck Rogers and Larry Vickers have worked their magic on that have never malfunctioned. I am definitely a 1911 guy.
However, as pointed out numerous times by pistol SME's like Larry Vickers and Hilton Yam, the 1911 is NOT truly a viable modern service pistol, due to the considerable effort, expense, and attention to detail required for agencies and units to set-up and maintain 1911's if they are to be used as a hard-use issue weapon. In this era, both the S&W .45 ACP M&P and the HK45 are likely better .45 ACP pistols for mass issue.
If a pistol can't run at least 500 and preferably 1000 continuous rounds without a single problem, it is NOT acceptable as a duty or CCW weapon. I have seen far too many poorly executed 1911's--both stock and custom--that cannot reach this goal. Sadly, many of these poorly functioning pistols have been in the 6004's of SWAT and patrol officers I have worked with... I don't care who you are, if you are not willing to spend the time, money, and have the patience to wait for one of the rare pistolsmiths who actually knows how to set-up a combat 1911 and ensures it gets done right, then a 1911 is probably not the way to go. Out of the box, I firmly believe the 9 mm Glocks are the most reliable and shootable pistols available for the majority of end-users. The .40 S&W M&P is also a great choice, as are the .45 ACP M&P and HK45 mentioned above.
FWIW, the only "stock" 1911 currently available that I would consider using is the SA Professional, and even then, I would not trust it until after shooting at least 1000 trouble free rounds and having it checked out by a GOOD pistolsmith. None of the other standard and semi-custom 1911's I have observed have proven to consistently offer acceptable hard-use reliability and durability out of the box. Both my SA Loaded's exhibited significant functional and QA problems; likewise I had two high dollar 1911's customized by well known pistol smiths that turned out to be unreliable dogs that I had to get rid of.
I absolutely have a passion for the 1911 but as the very wise Larry Vickers has previously said, the 1911 is a enthusiasts gun NOT a service gun. And he is correct.
I'm surprised Larry would admit, I mean say that.
I think there is too high a percentage of 1911's that don't run right out of the box. Even spending a lot of money on a high end 1911 will not come close to guaranteeing the consistant reliablilty that most people should have in a carry gun/service pistol. The unfortunate thing is that there are too many variables with the 1911 platform that affect reliability. This is further complicated by the numerous aftermarket parts that are on the market.
Having said that, if you like to tinker with guns, there is no better platform. Also, of all the guns I have, if there would be only one that I could save in a fire, it would be a 1911.
Joe Mamma
Don't be surprised. Conversations with Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn are enlightening.
I am not surprised by this comment from Larry Vickers. I do not think he is saying the 1911 is not a good combat gun at an individual user level. I think he is saying that the 1911 is not a good service gun. Rather it would be cost prohibitive for the armed forces to re-implement a 1911 on the order of a custom 1911 like those in the hands of special forces. An HK, Glock, SiG or M&P in .45 would be less expensive and probably be a better choice given the diverse backgrounds and discipline level of every person in service. Again this is what I think he is saying.
I am really at the collective mercy as to who uses what. If you know that a specific special forces group is using custom 1911 pistols by choice then I will take you all at your collective word. I honestly have no idea. What I do know is that I want a serious high end 1911 pistol that will be as reliable as any other pistol I own with acceptable combat accuracy. Guys like Larry Vickers know there stuff and I do value his opinion. I am really a never was, regular guy that can afford and am willing to pay the price both in dollars and in time to get a properly setup 1911 pistol. I am not a SWAT operator or an ex special anything. I just want a great pistol that I can trust and shoot well. I almost wish I did not shoot by friends Les Baer last weekend, but I did and now my brain/desire is in motion.
In all honesty I do not need another gun but we all know what it is like to want a new gun. A custom or semi-custom 1911 is an object of want. My needs are well covered.
DocGKR, thanks for the sage advice. I greatly appreciate it.
the1911fan
04-09-08, 18:26
FWIW, the only "stock" 1911 currently available that I would consider using is the SA Professional, and even then, I would not trust it until after shooting at least 1000 trouble free rounds and having it checked out by a GOOD pistolsmith. .
I was under the belief that Dave Williams had highly competent gunsmiths building the Professional's.
Learn something new every day
FWIW, the only "stock" 1911 currently available that I would consider using is the SA Professional, and even then, I would not trust it until after shooting at least 1000 trouble free rounds and having it checked out by a GOOD pistolsmith. None of the other standard and semi-custom 1911's I have observed have proven to consistently offer acceptable hard-use reliability and durability out of the box. Both my SA Loaded's exhibited significant functional and QA problems; likewise I had two high dollar 1911's customized by well known pistol smiths that turned out to be unreliable dogs that I had to get rid of.Agreed. I have wasted so much money on 1911s that I am able to observe certain trends based just on my ownership experience. For me, the Springfield Pro is pretty much the baseline performance-wise, and even then, it'll probably need some work. I don't even bother test firing other non-"signature-grade" 1911s anymore. They just don't seem to tolerate any type of meaningful firing schedule, so they go straight to a pistolsmith.
As far as I can tell, no amount of money can guarantee you a serviceable 1911. You pretty much have to use the brute-force method and hope you get lucky.
Agreed. I have wasted so much money on 1911s that I am able to observe certain trends based just on my ownership experience. For me, the Springfield Pro is pretty much the baseline performance-wise, and even then, it'll probably need some work. I don't even bother test firing other non-"signature-grade" 1911s anymore. They just don't seem to tolerate any type of meaningful firing schedule, so they go straight to a pistolsmith.
As far as I can tell, no amount of money can guarantee you a serviceable 1911. You pretty much have to use the brute-force method and hope you get lucky.
Vinh,
It sounds like you have had some bad luck with 1911's. What makes you keep coming back and spending more on them? Do you just prefer them over other platforms? Shoot them better?
the1911fan -- The SA Professionals are built well, that is why it I mentioned that they are the only non-custom 1911 I would currently consider purchasing; however, the SA Pro's are too tight and most I've seen still need a bit of tweaking before they are 100% reliable.
The all too frequent threads monotonously discussing what handgun to carry can become tedious. For me, there are basically two choices for an individually purchased and maintained hard-use primary carry gun that have proven to stand the test of time and risen above the pack: a stock Glock 17 and a properly customized 1911. The G19, M&P's, and HK45 are close behind.
The 9 mm Glock 17 has proven to be an an affordable, simple, robust pistol that offers good reliability and acceptable durability (except for fragile sights) right out of the box. I've seen quite a few G17's last 100,000 rounds.
As stated before, for the experienced shooter willing to invest significant time and money, as well as quite a bit of maintenance and practice effort, there is no better or more "shootable" handgun than a properly customized .45 ACP 5" steel frame single-stack 1911. If I could only own one handgun, it would be a Chuck Rogers or Vickers modified 1911. If you are willing to spend $2500.00 or so beyond the price of the pistol and have the time and patience to wait for a qualified pistolsmith to transform your 1911, you will likely wind up with a handgun of incomparable combat reliability and durability--one whose lineage has proven to last beyond 100,000 rounds.
Otherwise, DO NOT get a 1911 for a hard use carry gun; get a G17/19, M&P, or HK45 and then focus on training and mindset!
Dumb question: these 500-1000 trouble-free rounds a potential carry/duty gun should be shooting, what type of ammo is this stipulating? I'm leaning towards duty ammo, but I'd just like clarification, if anyone would be so kind.
-B
BAC -- different people have different comfort levels. Personally, for a semiauto, mine is 200rd. I want a gun to shoot 200rd of the exact same ammo I'm going to carry. That plus 1,000rd (total) of factory fresh ammo without a hiccup and I'm confident the gun is as good as I can rely on without a crystal ball.
ThirdWatcher
04-10-08, 03:50
My off-duty SW1911A1PD Gunsite pistol is as accurate and reliable as my Nighthawk Custom 10-8 service pistol and the S&W cost less than half as much as the NHC. Fit and finish is another issue; there is no comparison between the two... it's like comparing a CVPI to a Lincoln Town Car.:D
the1911fan
04-10-08, 06:52
the1911fan -- The SA Professionals are built well, that is why it I mentioned that they are the only non-custom 1911 I would currently consider purchasing; however, the SA Pro's are too tight and most I've seen still need a bit of tweaking before they are 100% reliable.
The all too frequent threads monotonously discussing what handgun to carry can become tedious.![/b]
Just was'nt clear about your distinction of "good" gunsmith V. the smiths building the PRO's being less than good. I realize your issue is with the way the gun is spec'd (overly tight) and not those building them.
FWIW out of the guns I own I trust 2 out of 3 of my 1911's 100% through high round count training (1. Nighthawk 10-8, 2. Springfield full house custom by Bob Miller, and have'nt shot the 3. SA PRO I just bought enough to trust it yet) the gun I trust the least is my S&W M&P 45. I have found that my S&W M&P 45 requires more frequent cleaning intervals to run well than my 1911's.
Ironically one of my most reliable 1911's is my 1943 Ithaca based gun that I built in Iraq for my use here. -- that said I consulted a lot of well know people for the parts and I had help working in it.
My biggest dog of a 1911 has been a Colt "Combat Elite". I had some issues with my SA Pro - but they turned out to be crappy mag related. My SA TRP has been good since I tossed its FLGR away and went to the proper way. I have yet to fire my Nighthawk Vickers or 10-8 guns due to being over here to much.
My Novaks guns have not let me down.
I freely admit that using a 1911 requires more logistical support and/or user effort.
-Kev
Anymore I do think you need a high end 1911 to get a good one. Your Kimber Warrior turned out good. My friends had to go back to the factory 4 times before it ran right. With the high costs of shipping a pistol he could have bought a Wilson.
Pat
Kimber takes care of the shipping both ways.
Dumb question: these 500-1000 trouble-free rounds a potential carry/duty gun should be shooting, what type of ammo is this stipulating? I'm leaning towards duty ammo, but I'd just like clarification, if anyone would be so kind.
-B
You should run at least some of your carry/duty ammo through it.
I think it's also very important to test it with the exact same magazines that you would use in a carry/duty situation. Check it for functioning with the mag topped off and a round in the chamber (if that's how you're going to carry it), and check it to make sure it will be reliable when you are down to your last round or two. It's fairly common for 1911's to jam on the last round.
Also, I'd suggest checking it to make sure it locks the slide back when you run the gun to empty, and that it doesn't lock the slide back when you still have rounds in the mag.
Normally, to trust a gun for reliabilty, I lean more towards the 200 round count than the 500-1000 round count. But, on a brand new 1911, or something else that I think may change after breaking in, I think the 500-1000 rds is a good idea.
Joe Mamma
I don't even bother test firing other non-"signature-grade" 1911s anymore. They just don't seem to tolerate any type of meaningful firing schedule, so they go straight to a pistolsmith.
Vihn: Can you put your "firing schedule" in to perspective for us all? I think some people may read your comment and believe that you might be talking about a few hundred rounds a month, and maybe a training class or two per year. Which isn't the case at all....
Not all readers will understand that your firing schedule is not insignificant. Last time I talked to you, you were shooting well over 3,000rds of factory loaded ammo per month. Is that accruate, or am I cloudy on the details?
Vinh,
It sounds like you have had some bad luck with 1911's. What makes you keep coming back and spending more on them? Do you just prefer them over other platforms? Shoot them better?The 1911 is the easiest cocked-and-locked platform for me to shoot due to my small hands. It I didn't have a penchant for cocked-and-locked and .45, I would only buy Glocks.
Vihn: Can you put your "firing schedule" in to perspective for us all? I think some people may read your comment and believe that you might be talking about a few hundred rounds a month, and maybe a training class or two per year. Which isn't the case at all....
Not all readers will understand that your firing schedule is not insignificant. Last time I talked to you, you were shooting well over 3,000rds of factory loaded ammo per month. Is that accruate, or am I cloudy on the details?I've never shot as much as the pros, but back when I was really into training, I did my best to shoot 1000 rounds a week (no reloads). Due to time constraints and significant loss of enthusiasm, I'm down to a few hundred a month, primarily for sustainment rather than improvement.
I've never shot as much as the pros, but back when I was really into training, I did my best to shoot 1000 rounds a week (no reloads).
Exactly what I thought. It's worth noting that your firsthand impressions of the overall durability of various 1911's came while shooting the higher round counts. 1000rds per week is not insignificant, and is more rounds than a lot of people fire per quarter or per year.
I'd love to hear your experiences with the various brands of 1911's and how they handled the high round counts.
I own $1,200 SA MC Operator that has been 100% reliable and accurate , I own 2 TRP's both the same. Most will agree that after you get to the price point in $1,200 to $1,400 New and $1,100 used SA TRP is the best bang for the buck. A lot of people like the Colt Rail Gun, mine has been great but I did have smith work it. Dan & Wesson makes good guns for the money too. The Valor in 9mm or 45 are a steal if you can find them on gunbroker.
I just checked Gunbroker and there are the TRP SS for $1,299 and the Dan & Wesson Valor for $1,299. Buy either of those and you will be thrilled.
Your first 1911 should be in 45acp but the second in 9mm. But many could argue vs versa.
PB
PB
Back in the 70's as a young LEO I was required to carry a 38 special revolver on duty. Off duty I saved for a Colt Series 70 Govt model in 45acp. A Big City LEO armorer, former US Army Armorer and 45acp toter on duty showed me how to care for the Colt. He tore it completely apart and showed me how to put the puzzle back together again. I tore it down 1 more time, he scraped the parts into a cigar box and shoved me out the door.
I had it together up to where the FCG sits in place and build from there. He showed me 1 more time and that was the beginning of my 1911 love affair.
Got married, bought 2 horses and needed a saddle. Out goes my Colt. I had shot several models of Wilson Combats and I liked them like sweets.
Finally got to where I could afford one and bought the Vickers Elite in 9mm. My hands elbows and shoulders have arthritis so I was afraid 45 would jar me.
I swapped around and acquired a Glock 21 Gen 4. Probably a 1911 in 45acp in my future I hope.
Nostalgia? Maybe, Fits my hand, Yep, Can I shoot a 1911 well, Yep, First auto a 1911, YEP. I remember the SNICK as the thumb safety goes off and front sight is coming on target, 40 years ago when I got my first 1911. Don't recall what the price was, Layaway for about 2 months.
Dillion SQ Deal, Win 231 and hard cast HG68 bullets 200gr. Me, my pistol, coffee can of ammo and paper plates, magic marker.
Fun Times then.
SPEER 200gr JHP Flying Ash trays for defense.
TH76251556
06-28-19, 17:37
The 1911 is a work of pure genius. JMB had no computers. No CAD. And he devised this wonderful machine that continues to provide the "best in class" when it comes to a SA handgun. Everything else is an imitation. That's something to be in awe of. I own several 1911s and nothing satisfies as much as a 1911 when it comes to pure joy of shooting.
sundance435
07-01-19, 10:12
The 1911 is a work of pure genius. JMB had no computers. No CAD. And he devised this wonderful machine that continues to provide the "best in class" when it comes to a SA handgun. Everything else is an imitation. That's something to be in awe of. I own several 1911s and nothing satisfies as much as a 1911 when it comes to pure joy of shooting.
I bought a Colt 1911A1 reproduction after watching Band of Brothers for the 5th time and not having owned a 1911 for a decade. Damn if shooting that didn't bring back all of the nostalgia, so I've got a new Colt on the way. No red-blooded American should be without at least one 1911 in .45, but the Hi Power is just as, if not more, ingenious. Almost every service weapon today, save for 1911 platforms, goes back to the Hi Power.
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