3 dot vs "8" dot sights: elevation?

[theblackknight]

To the point question: Do those here with lots of night shooting time have a problem with elevation variance using 2 dot tritiums when shooting at night?

I'm looking to replace the Bowie -classic green rear- sights on my M&P fullsize. The front tritium is a lot dimmer then the rear and I want the opposite. All these new CAP/I-dot sights look awesome for daytime shooting with the color up front, and people love the 8 style sights.

I have the sevigny warrens fibers on my comp gun and love the deep rear notch. I'd like to find the closest sight to this that has the photoluminescent front insert and a bright front vial.


The only time I've done a lot of night shooting was with the factory M&P trit sights.

[opngrnd]

Not sure if this helps any, but I usually set my guns up with a plain 10-8 Rear sight with the white dot or tritium up from. I've never had issues with it, so I don't how adding one dot to the back would hurt if you're focusing on the front sight for accuracy.

[Failure2Stop]

I bought into the "Figure 8" sights a long time ago.
I wish I had just stuck with a 3-dot arrangement.

The criticism that three horizontal dots can be mis-read if the front sight is deviated laterally is semi-credible at best. How many times have you, as a practicing "suck less" disciple, gone through a full draw on a target, only to have your front sight completely out of the front sight notch, completely level with the rear sights, and perfectly spaced to replicate the rear sight "castle". Not very often I bet, if ever.
Conversely, how many times have you done a full presentation and needed to make a minor elevation or deflection change within the notch? A whole lot I bet.

The entire argument of mis-alignment becomes moot if you simply get a sight arrangement that has contrasting colors for the front and rear. Yellow and green work pretty well in my experience. Shooting with the "figure 8" dots is like shooting iron sights with the rear sight milled flat. Shooting the 3-dot is like shooting standard irons, and shooting one with a contrasting front is like shooting irons with a colored front.

[Hootiewho]

Furthermore, I have had straight 8 Heinies (more than one set) where the rear lamp was off centered. The one's on my CCW P30 are this way right now. This produced a shift in POI when using just the tritium lamps. I'm not crazy about 3 dot sights with very bright rears, but the ones like the Trijicon HD are very GTG in my book.

[Psalms144.1]

I did a fairly extensive test pre-9/11 with 10 different shooters, using P228s, standard sights, front NS only, and 3-dot NS. We varied the lighting from no light (ambient only), to backlit shooters, to backlit targets. Shooters varied from guys I'd consider BARELY proficient to very experienced, well trained pistoleers.

Consistently, and not surprisingly, no one shot better, in any lighting condition, with standard iron sights. All shooters shot more accurately with 3-dot sights, though some of the best shooters were slowed, very slightly, but measurably, with the 3-dots. I firmly believe that this was caused by the front NS only setup taking the "fetters" off those shooters - with nothing to align in the rear, they put the glowing front dot on the target, "felt" a good natural alignment through muscle memory, and pressed through the trigger. The same shooters, provided 3-dots, SEEMED to slow a little in order to refine their sight picture during the trigger press.

Post 9/11, I haven't had the opportunity to do a comprehensive test again; but I have, on many occasions, ventured into the "figure 8" NS world. What I've found is that, consistently, in low light shooting, my times dropped SIGNIFICANTLY, and I tried to "guesstimate" the appropriate amount of "space" between the two dots. Against dark-colored targets in even moderately dim conditions, this was a significant issue for me. Could I have trained through it and developed a "muscle memory" sight picture with thousands of rounds? Probably, but, I didn't see any real advantage to this sighting system, so I never invested the time, money and effort to re-program my brain.

So, for me, the real question is what is "trump" - speed, or accuracy? FOR ME, accuracy is ALWAYS king, barring any game-changing speed impediments. That's why I consistently stick with what works best FOR ME - three dot NS with a contrasting rear. Right now, my Glocks are wearing Ameriglo CAP front sights (orange outline) mated to "Operator" rears with amber vials. In daylight, the bright front sight REALLY sticks out (especially against the non-outlined rear "dots"); at night, the brighter front green tritium is easy and fast to pick up.

Regards,

Kevin

[HKGuns]

I prefer three dots in any light conditions. The dot over dot setup requires too much thinking for me to shoot intuitively. YMMV

[Dano5326]

I strongly favor 2 dot "8" formats. The rear is less cluttered in daytime. For the same reason race winners use a plain flat black rear.. Also, a quick reference, vertical.. spinal, alignment is more inline with modalities of training that make sense to me.

Probably not a factor for most, but one can use two dot tritium sights with night vision goggles very effectively. Technique will not work with 3dot.

[DocGKR]

I preferred the 3-dot arrangement--dim rear yellow and bright green front. Now I use and RDS and it is all a bit moot...

[theblackknight]

The criticism that three horizontal dots can be mis-read if the front sight is deviated laterally is semi-credible at best. How many times have you, as a practicing "suck less" disciple, gone through a full draw on a target, only to have your front sight completely out of the front sight notch, completely level with the rear sights, and perfectly spaced to replicate the rear sight "castle". Not very often I bet, if ever.
Conversely, how many times have you done a full presentation and needed to make a minor elevation or deflection change within the notch? A whole lot I bet.



This was my thought exactly. My other thought was: who actually shoots more then a box a year, and has ever had a index that shitty? Point shooting dudes would be like "bro, you even shoot?"

Awesome feedback guys. Thank you. I think some yellow rears will let me apply the same relative alingment that the irons themselves allow.

[nickdrak]

I prefer the Trijicon "HD" sights over the various "8" configuration sights I have used in the past. I actually dim the rear dots a bit with a light touch of black Sharpie.

Vickers new single dot/U-notch rear sight looks good and I may give it a shot in-conjunction with my Trijicon HD front but at this point I see no reason to change.

[Ranger325]

..........the two orange/amber dots with no outlines and marked over with Sharpie .......

Is this done to tone the glow of the rear sights down?

This is a very timely topic as I am starting my research for a set of night sights for my PPQ. Options appear to be very limited - Trijicon 'Bright and Tough' (availability is limited it seems) but no HDs, factory Walthers, and little else. Seems that most folks like the contrasting color grn/yellow or grn/orange?

So, I'm using the 'orange button' here and searching other sites for info.

Thanks,

[Ranger325]

Yes, it makes the rear dots practically unnoticeable during daytime shooting and still glows fine at night.

Thank 'ya, sir.

[Heavy Metal]

Yes, it makes the rear dots practically unnoticeable during daytime shooting and still glows fine at night.

I remember trading somebody a strawberry pop-tart for a Sharpie just so I could do exactly that:D

[Quiet Riot]

I prefer the Trijicon "HD" sights over the various "8" configuration sights I have used in the past. I actually dim the rear dots a bit with a light touch of black Sharpie.
This sounds like a great solution to those looking for a dotless rear sight but wanting the tritium for low light sighting. I'm going to give this a try for my next sights.

ETA: In fact, it would seem that mfgs could do this by using a black anodized housing and a tinted lens for the tritium vials on the rear sight. I think that would sell very well if it worked.

[Kristofer_G]

I started years ago with the typical three dots. I think I was using Meprolights because they were less expensive then Trijicon at the time. I eventually blacked out the highlights on the rear sights.

Then I tried XS 24/7 sights. Which after buying/installing two sets, and shooting with them for over half a year, I decided were total garbage. I went to Warren Tactical 2 dot tritium sets for a few years, and liked them. Eventually, I blackened the white highlight on the front sight, giving me an all black sight picture in day light.

Then about a year ago I was shooting a gun with factory Trijicons which had the white highlights, front and rear, blacked out. I realized I had not gotten used to the higher sight line of the WT sights. This is all on Glock pistols by the way.

Because of this, I now have Ameriglo Operator Green/Yellow night sight sets. I blackout the front sight before install them. The Operators have a front post to rear notch ratio close to that of the Warrens. But they use a square cut notch and are low profile. They were relatively inexpensive for a set. I was only out of pocket $30 for two sets after selling the used Warrens.

ETA: My preference is low profile, three dot, green/yellow tritium, with any highlights on the sights blacked out.

[BioLayne]

I switched out my TruGlo TFOs for Ameriglo I-Dot Pros and I could not be happier. Much more rapid sight acquisition and much easier to focus on the front sight. With the TFOs I kept focusing on the rear sights.

[Bodhi]

Hrmm, novice shooter here! My glock 19, which I bought hardly used, came with XS big dots, I couldn't stand them. I felt like the front sight was deceiving me.

So I ordered some glock factory night sights, meprolights from my understanding, and in the mean time I used the stock glock sights.

I felt like my accuracy improved as well as my over all sight-picture confidence. I was beginning to like the stock ones so much that I was starting to feel like I wouldn't like the 3-dot night sights when they finally shipped. I got them and I feel like I don't shoot as well with them as I do the stock sights.

I have been toying with the idea of getting something like ameriglo i-dots, caps, or straight 8's. I feel like the vertical sights make more sense to me. But I am worried about me being too dependent on the two-dot style sights that I won't be able to shoot 3-dot sights nearly as well.

[HKGuns]

Also, a quick reference, vertical.. spinal, alignment is more inline with modalities of training that make sense to me.

Can you expand a bit more on the training asepct? The point on NV is something I've not thought of, nor will ever likely require, but good to learn.

[NCPatrolAR]

But I am worried about me being too dependent on the two-dot style sights that I won't be able to shoot 3-dot sights nearly as well.

Switching between the two doesn't effect me

[Bodhi]

Switching between the two doesn't effect me

Yeah, I think I may just make the move over to the CAPs or the i-dots.

Thanks!

[wake.joe]

I had 3 dots, Green front and Yellow rear. I switched to two dots, both green.

I did not like the two dot rear sight during daylight hours. While they "blacked out" in daylight, they were still an odd distraction to my eye. Not a true "Blacked out" rear sight. I do not have this issue with a single dot below the notch.

I also prefer fewer dots in low light. I do not know if it would make a difference on a shot timer or not, but I definitely feel less "clutter" with two dots versus three.

I don't think you could misalign the three-dot sights. It was never an issue for me, and there is a huge gap between two of the dots if it ever was. However, I did have yellow rears.

I also think three dots is easier to align fast vertically, while the two dots will light up quicker horizontally. The human body has a lot of room for error vertically, and not very much horizontally.

[TiroFijo]

Front dot only for me.

While in non iluminated sights I like Sig's "dot over post", I don't like the straight eight dots, and I really hate the three dot setups.

[CAVDOC]

Precise elevation is determined by sight not dot alignment- in the dark at close range where night sights may be helpful precision will suffer but is less critical than at longer range in better light. I always carry white light and what I have found is if you employ the light the night sight wash out and are not that visible. I often find guys on daylight ranges having elevation problems from aligning the dots. In daylight ignore the dots and align the sights. I have found the washout I describe above pretty much totally defeats the night sights to the point I run win black sights

[C4IGrant]

I remember trading somebody a strawberry pop-tart for a Sharpie just so I could do exactly that:D

Hmm. He will trade for pop tarts eh? Will have to remember that. ;)



C4

[theblackknight]

Having a functioning white light is a luxury. I do want something that will work optimally in the least optimal situation.


Precise elevation is determined by sight not dot alignment- in the dark at close range where night sights may be helpful precision will suffer but is less critical than at longer range in better light. I always carry white light and what I have found is if you employ the light the night sight wash out and are not that visible. I often find guys on daylight ranges having elevation problems from aligning the dots. In daylight ignore the dots and align the sights. I have found the washout I describe above pretty much totally defeats the night sights to the point I run win black sights

[TAZ]

Much like F2S, he whole misaligned front on a 3 dot config myth baffles me. I've tried and I'd have to be pretty ****ed in the head to not notice my grip that far put of whack.

As my eyes have begin to crap out I find a plane black rear to be the best for me. Just makes the front stock out more than anything else.

My opinion is that the best sights are the ones you practice the crap out of.

[TiroFijo]

Having a functioning white light is a luxury. I do want something that will work optimally in the least optimal situation.

That's the only reason I like a front illuminated dot. For most situations black on black is best for me.