View Full Version : Bayonets in the 21st century
The US Army has discontinued bayonet training (although I think the USMC still does it), and most folks that I've talked to think the bayonet is an archaic piece of hardware that has no place on the modern battlefield. I'm not sure how other armies around the world feel about this.
Is it finally time to scrap all the bayonets, or is there still potential for a bayonet charge on some future battlefield?
The Marines made a charge in Iraq in '04 or something like that. Apparently, the Iraqi's saw it and ran. I definitely think it should still be utilized. God knows there's enough wasted time in the military, definitely at basic that we can at least go through the course for a day. Nothing to be relied on, but why not?
Come on guys.
The bayonet was useful during the Revolutionary War. It also took 15 seconds to reload your smoothbore musket.
It was outdated for the Civil War.
"Your enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand"
Didn't the Brits have an AFG engagement where bayonets made the difference?
Come on guys.
The bayonet was useful during the Revolutionary War. It also took 15 seconds to reload your smoothbore musket.
It was outdated for the Civil War.
And every successful bayonet charge since?
PA PATRIOT
06-22-13, 10:36
I'm all for them,
Shit happens in war and I would rather have one and not need it, but if the ammo runs out at least you have a option.
Come on guys.
The bayonet was useful during the Revolutionary War. It also took 15 seconds to reload your smoothbore musket.
It was outdated for the Civil War.
Many items are somewhat obsolete, but they still kill people with them. In the past 12 years men have been killed on the battlefield with knives, clubs, shovels and helmets.
I am all for have and not need over need and not have. Nothing wrong with a little extra training on how to kill either, which I am all for, be it bayonet, hand to hand, or even straight up knife fighting techniques. That said I know a lot of have been over there who felt that the bayonet wasn't much use with everything that they had hanging off their rifles already that it simply made it too cumbersome to use with a bayonet mounted. Though while they didn't want to carry the bayonet they did carry any number of various fixed blades and often tomahawks if they could get them so I suppose the spirit of taking steel to your enemy is still alive and well, just that the steel is not longer mounted to the end of the rifle.
The UK forces experience in 2004:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0bd_1249524865
MountainRaven
06-22-13, 11:06
There have been multiple small engagements in AFG and Iraq where a timely bayonet charge made a difference.
That being said, I do feel that bayonets are somewhat limited in utility.
I think that they're useful during training for encouraging a "warrior spirit".
And that they're useful for situations like guarding EPWs and attempting to express a certain amount of seriousness to a crowd of civilians/protesters/rioters.
In the situations where a bayonet charge did make a difference, I would wonder if making a charge without a bayonet would have made a difference. Without knowing this, it would be impossible for me to say whether the bayonet is completely without merit on the battlefield. And, of course, the battlefield on which we meet Talibs would be different from that in which we meet Russians or Chinese or even North Koreans or Iranians.
In any case, if you're going to issue a bayonet, it seems to me that it needs to be a good, useful, high-quality utility knife in its own right. But even then, in for instance Finland, a country with its back against the wall continuously throughout the Winter War and WWII, Finnish soldiers and Guardsmen were continuously "losing" their bayonets, even when they became more and more like their beloved puukko knives. And I don't believe they ever resorted to bayonets in either defense or attack (while fighting the Soviets, who believed so rigorously in the bayonet that all of their rifles and carbines were zeroed with bayonets fixed, except the M38).
And Israel, a nation smaller than Massachusetts, whose military is built on personal initiative and maneuver warfare, and surrounded on all sides by potential enemies, has been going away from bayonets for at least the last decade, if not longer.
So, yes, the bayonet has a use. But only, so it appears, if your training supports its use. Otherwise, it seems that it's just a big, heavy knife that doesn't so anything particularly well.
There have been multiple small engagements in AFG and Iraq where a timely bayonet charge made a difference.
That being said, I do feel that bayonets are somewhat limited in utility.
I think that they're useful during training for encouraging a "warrior spirit".
And that they're useful for situations like guarding EPWs and attempting to express a certain amount of seriousness to a crowd of civilians/protesters/rioters.
.
Just what I was going to say.
I had my Marines fix bayonets in Iraq in 03 on numerous occasions when on guard duty. Right after the fall of Baghdad the Iraqis felt the Marines would not shoot them but they felt they would get stuck if they got too close
Well, the well-equipped individual has gotta have the "adaptive combat bayonet":
http://www.impactguns.com/bushmaster-adaptive-combat-bayonet-acb-for-m16-and-ar15-rifles-17959-047700179599.aspx
MountainRaven
06-22-13, 17:31
Well, the well-equipped individual has gotta have the "adaptive combat bayonet":
http://www.impactguns.com/bushmaster-adaptive-combat-bayonet-acb-for-m16-and-ar15-rifles-17959-047700179599.aspx
I'm surprised they didn't do it in ATACS.
Moose-Knuckle
06-22-13, 17:31
They have a psychological effect that induces fear and intimidation. Nothing quit says GET OUT OF MY CASTLE like a 590A1 with an OKC-3S hanging off the end.
Then there is this . . .
(Originally printed by the Daily Record UK, since removed from their site. )
WITH BAYONETS ATTACHED, THEY FINISHED OFF THE ENEMY WHO HAD NOT RUN AWAY..
May 21 2004
SCOTS TELL OF CHARGE
By Keith Mcleod And Michael Christie
SCOTS soldiers last night told how they launched a bayonet charge on Iraqi militiamen after hours of battle.
An Army insider last night gave the Record an insight into the bravery of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.
They were forced to use 'cold steel' as supplies of ammunition ran low.
Many of the militiamen turned and fled but the close-quarters fighting left around 20 rebels dead.
Thirty-five of Shia Moslem cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's followers died and two British troops were injured during the three-hour battle.
A senior Argylls officer said last night: 'After a fierce fight and with small amounts of ammo left, they put in a conventional left-flanking attack.
'With bayonets attached, they finished off the enemy who had not run off.'
It was the first time in 22 years the Army had used bayonets in action.
The last came when the Scots Guards stormed Argentinian positions during the Falklands War.
The battle developed following a distress call from a group of eight British soldiers last Friday.
The troops under the command of Major Adam Griffiths were surrounded on the notorious Route Six highway while en route to Camp Abu Naji in southern Iraq. Their LandRovers were riddled with bullets and they came under attack from rocket launchers and grenades.
But as a 30-strong platoon of Argylls responded to the SOS, the militia were getting reinforcements.
The men from the Stirlingshire-based regiment were forced to dig in and shoot back.
The Argylls were aided by a detachment of the Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment, who arrived at the scene in armoured Warrior vehicles.
More than 150 Iraqis were said to be involved in last week's battle. Military sources say the militiamen miscalculated the response from the original group of soldiers.
Last night, a source said: 'Morale is very good following this serious incident.
'The insurgents have been laying ambushes on Route Six one of the main roads between Basra and Baghdad for some time.
'Previously, the response from small British groups has been drive on. These militiamen were obviously expecting this to happen again.
'The enemy have been picking their targets, mainly two LandRovers with six to eight soldiers on board. With those odds, it is sometimes best to keep on going, but the attack was so sustained, the LandRovers stopped and returned fire.
'We now hope that these attacks on Route Six will stop, but we are taking nothing for granted.'
Intelligence gathered since the bayonet charge suggests it shocked the militia fighters, who expected the outnumbered Scots to flee.
The source added: 'The injuries received by our troops were shrapnel to the hand and shrapnel to the groin. Both of these casualties were as a result of rocket-propelled grenades fired at them.
'Both the injured guys are back with their units and doing fine.'
The Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment arrived on the scene in 37ton Warriors just as the Scots' ammo was getting low.
They found many Iraqi militia fleeing the bayonet charge.
Around 20 Iraqis who chose to stand and fight were killed by the troops of both regiments.
The Argylls' forebears formed The Thin Red Line which kept 25,000 Russians at bay at Balaclava during the Crimean War of the 1850s.
In 1967, Argylls commander Lieutenant-Colonel Colin Mitchell known as Mad Mitch stormed a rebel stronghold in Yemen.
Accompanied only by 15 pipers playing Scotland The Brave, he recaptured Crater Town, the commercial heart of Aden, which had been in enemy hands for two weeks.
The regiment has won 16 Victoria Crosses.
MountainRaven
06-22-13, 17:35
They have a psychological effect that induces fear and intimidation. Nothing quit says GET OUT OF MY CASTLE like a Winchester 97 with an M1917 bayonet hanging off the end.
Then there is this . . .
(Originally printed by the Daily Record UK, since removed from their site. )
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/attachments/f26/52957-bayonet-shotgun-really-practical-winchester-97.jpg
Made more better-er.
:D
Even scarier still...
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/lolwomensks_zpse19db319.jpg (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/5757_photos/media/lolwomensks_zpse19db319.jpg.html)
I think scrapping bayonets is fine, but the training should be replaced with more hand to hand/edged weapons training.
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What makes the grass grow?
Beat Trash
06-22-13, 20:41
"Blood... Blood... Blood Makes The Grass Grow..."
What makes the grass grow?
"Blood... Blood... Blood Makes The Grass Grow..."
Who's blood?!?
Heavy Metal
06-22-13, 21:06
I personally think it is the guts that make it grow and the blood that makes it green. Damn .mil has had this backwards forever!
MountainRaven
06-22-13, 21:26
And here I thought it was sunshine and birdshit.
:confused:
xrayoneone
06-22-13, 21:27
What is the job of the bayonet?!
Kill! Kill! Kill!
My Platoon Sergeant alegedly stabbed an individual with a bayonet in Somalia. The story was they were searching some buildings and he had his bayonet fixed. I asked why and he said it just seemed like a good idea to poke things and an added deterent if crowds formed, not for any idea of actually fighting. He made entry to a small hut when in the corner he saw a Somali trying to shoot him. In a flinch/reflex action he thrust his rifle/ bayonet out and stabbed the guy. Is it true? I don't know, the guy was nuts so probably.
The bayonet is good for teaching agressiveness to individuals who have probably never gotten in a fist fight before. Beyond that I see them more as a secondary weapon if you ever go hands on. Privates don't get pistols (usually) and with all of the room clearing it is very likely you may end up in a fight involving something other than your rifle. Bellavia used his knife to kill an insurgent and Clifford Wooldridge beat a Taliban to death with his MG, so hands on happens. it is better to have the tool for the job than improvise something.
I don't see any Lexington and Concord type scenarios but all the hi-tech hasn't replaced the man on the ground. What do I know We always stuffed our bayonets in our rucks so we didn't loose them. They were dull as all get out and we weren't allowed to sharpen them.
Is it finally time to scrap all the bayonets, or is there still potential for a bayonet charge on some future battlefield?
I don't see a "bayonet charge" as a realistic scenario, but if you arrive at the point where you are swinging the rifle around like a club because you are out of ammunition, being overrun or separated from your group or something along those lines, having a pointy end can be a bonus.
There is no "gain" by removing the bayonet lug so might as well leave it there. A bayonet can be a useful tool for many things even if you rarely put it on your rifle.
Heavy Metal
06-22-13, 21:51
And here I thought it was sunshine and birdshit.
:confused:
You have never been in the Army or Marines have you?
MountainRaven
06-22-13, 22:03
You have never been in the Army or Marines have you?
I understand what everyone was saying: It was a joke....
I guess that the lack of a :| face and my poor choice of substitute did not help.
theblackknight
06-23-13, 00:55
You expect me to use my own knife to carve penises into the wood on my post? GTFO
scoutfsu99
06-23-13, 07:56
I have yet to be issued a bayonet in any unit. Except for cyclic inventories, I haven't seen one since OSUT
CarlosDJackal
06-23-13, 09:14
Why not keep the bayonet? It seems we are forgetting the concept of a "Layered Defense". And once the enemy has managed to get close enough to hold onto your own belt buckle, what which would you rather have? Your fists? Or a bayonet?
WHAT'S THE SPIRIT OF THE BAYONET?!
Call me archaic, but I think the bayonet is still a useful tool.
Just because it hasn't seen extensive actual use over the last decade, does not mean it has lost all relevance. Another symptom of what I see now with the "Small War" driving the development train, rather than the "Big War".
We may not always be deployed like we are now, fighting assymetrical warfare in third world countries.
The bayonet, and training, is useful for the following reasons:
-Aggressiveness training
-Clearing a path out of a minefield
-Rifle-mounted weapon for close quarter fights
Bayonet training has seen a low for us in the last 6-7 years, but back then it was SOP for our guys to fix bayonets during assaults on enemy foxholes or trench systems during training.
We have had guys fix bayonets in Afghanistan, during room clearing, but I haven't heard of anyone actually sticking someone.
I would much rather have soldiers trained on bayonets, shovels, helmets and the like, than try to make "martial artists" out of them.
crusader377
06-23-13, 10:25
First off, The last bayonet charge by a unit in U.S. Military history was in the Korean War when a company of U.S. infantry charged Chinese positions. Here is the link about the commander of the unit: http://www.army.mil/article/30673/hero-who-led-last-major-us-bayonet-charge-dies/
My thoughts are that bayonets training should still be carried out to build aggressiveness and bayonets although rarely used should still be carried because it is quite simply the best hand to hand combat weapon readily available to the infantry. A trained man with a bayonet fixed on his rifle has a huge advantage in fight against one who is using a knife or improvised weapon like a e-tool or helmet. Although hand to hand combat is increasingly rare, it still does happen and I firmly believe that our fighting men should have the tools to defeat our enemies at all ranges from long range fights to hand to hand.
Plus a bayonet is a useful tool for riot or crowd control and also very useful for managing EPWs.
Wait, I think I recall Barry saying we no longer use these things...
Not being in the Military, nor do I know what and how they train for, I think they should still train at least day with them. And still issue them.
While watching "Warrior POV" on Military Channel. During room clearing, sorry everyone I barley remember the details,and why this guy did not use his rifle, the solider was confronted by an enemy and they started fighting. He sadly got the bad end of it (I *think* he may have been injured prior to this,and was looking for someone up in the room) so he pulled out his Gerber knife and stabbed the guy to death.
So, I can think of many situations were a Bayonet, even not mounted,or any kind of blade, could be an asset.
Marines from 2/26 conducted a bayonet charge outside of hill 861A in 1968
We used them in 03 during the invasion of Iraq. I don't think anyone stuck anyone though. On of my team leaders brother, he was in the 101st, killed an Iraqi soldier with his E-tool. In 05 one of the squad leaders in my platoon but stroked a guy with his M4.
Hand to hand fighting still happens, especially in MOUT. I think we should have better bayonets.
Agreed, still useful tools.
I think one of the reasons it is good to train with a bayonet, as well as boxing/sparring/unarmed combat is to understand killing and fighting at a personal level, not 200+ yards. Akin to instilling the warrior spirit.
xrayoneone
06-23-13, 14:40
Hand to hand fighting still happens, especially in MOUT. I think we should have better bayonets.
Agreed. It was good to see the USMC finally mothball the M7 but I think the OKC is a little long. I've never used one and can't comment past my use with similar knives. I thought the M9 was a little heavy which probably comes from trying to make it do everything possible.
For a historical perspective, Richard Holmes' excellent book "Tommy: The British Soldier On The Western Front 1914-1918" devotes several pages to the topic of the bayonet:
"And when 3rd Australian Division took Windmill Hill, near Zonnebeke in the Ypres Salient, on 4 October 1917, there was such sustained large-scale bayonet fighting that the Official History commented on the fact."'
"The bayonet caused only 0.32 per cent of one sample of 200,000 British casualties, although this may be a reflection of the fact that the Germans placed less reliance on it."
"Charles Carrington illuminated a fundamental truth when he wrote that 'the sword bayonet was an essential part of our armament even though the deaths it inflicted were few. I never knew the enemy to stand if your men with their long gleaming blades could get within charging distance".
"When the Welsh Guards attacked Grinchy on 10 September 1917 it's men used their bayonets to great effect. Pte. William Williams was seen to dispose of several of the enemy, until with a furious thrust he completely transfixed a German and was unable to free his bayonet. He knocked another down with his fists and seized yet another by the throat, when they both fell into a shell hole. More Germans rushed up, and the gallant Williams did not rise again."
"A survivor of the Mametz Wood battle told Robert Graves that he saw a soldier of 14/Royal Welch Fusiliers ' bayoneting a German in parade ground style, automatically exclaiming 'In, out, on guard!". Graves himself saw the corpses of a man of the South Wales Borderers and one of the Lehr Regiment 'who had succeeded in bayoneting each other simultaneously'.
Just what I was going to say.
I had my Marines fix bayonets in Iraq in 03 on numerous occasions when on guard duty. Right after the fall of Baghdad the Iraqis felt the Marines would not shoot them but they felt they would get stuck if they got too close
We fixed bayonets many times in the Gulf War. Often with EPOW's. I'd rather have it than not. They're light enough.
I don't see a "bayonet charge" as a realistic scenario, but if you arrive at the point where you are swinging the rifle around like a club because you are out of ammunition, being overrun or separated from your group or something along those lines, having a pointy end can be a bonus.
There is no "gain" by removing the bayonet lug so might as well leave it there. A bayonet can be a useful tool for many things even if you rarely put it on your rifle.
First off, The last bayonet charge by a unit in U.S. Military history was in the Korean War when a company of U.S. infantry charged Chinese positions. Here is the link about the commander of the unit: http://www.army.mil/article/30673/hero-who-led-last-major-us-bayonet-charge-dies/
We should keep the bayonet. The charge noted above reminded me about another weapon we have not used since WWII and we only used it twice. We still make 'em and train with them. They work when nothing else will, and they Scare The ****ing Shit out of our enemies. Nukes and Bayonets. We still need 'em.
What makes the grass grow?
....Why is the sky blue?!?!
When I went through OSUT at Benning in '01/02 we spent quite a bit of time with the bayonet. Yet at that time I had no idea how to clear a double feed. The bayonet DEFINITELY has its place but there are a great many other things that needed the time to expound on looking back. SPORTS ain't gonna clear a double
feed.
Retreat Hell always comes to mind when talking about subjects like basic weapons manipulation.
-Jax
Beat Trash
06-27-13, 21:44
The bayonet is an option when things are close enough that it can be used. When it gets that "up close and personal", options are a good thing.
Granted in an ideal conflict, the bayonet will not be used. But conflicts are not always fought in ideal conditions. Especially in Urban environments. We have it. Why not keep it?
Instead of asking why should we keep the bayonet in the 21st century, I would ask why should we even consider getting rid of it?
Most of you fail to realize that most units, in my experience, don't even issue bayonets anymore. They typical sit in the arms room in a couple of tuff boxes.
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LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-27-13, 23:07
Most of you fail to realize that most units, in my experience, don't even issue bayonets anymore. They typical sit in the arms room in a couple of tuff boxes.
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I got out of the Corps last year and was a POG. We had Bayonets everytime we were deployed, and almost every unit I saw go OCONUS did as well....
LowSpeed_HighDrag
06-27-13, 23:08
You expect me to use my own knife to carve penises into the wood on my post? GTFO
What, like this bad boy that we made?
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/DSC00861_zpsf80b3aa0.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/glockfire/media/DSC00861_zpsf80b3aa0.jpg.html)
I got out of the Corps last year and was a POG. We had Bayonets everytime we were deployed, and almost every unit I saw go OCONUS did as well....
I was an Infantryman in the Army for 8 years, and we never used them, nor did we want too. Maybe it's a Marine thing.
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Most of you fail to realize that most units, in my experience, don't even issue bayonets anymore. They typical sit in the arms room in a couple of tuff boxes.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Isn't that the whole point of the thread? To discuss the merits of the bayonet and bayonet training?
scoutfsu99
06-28-13, 00:33
Isn't that the whole point of the thread? To discuss the merits of the bayonet and bayonet training?
A lot of the posters don't seem to realize that, at least in the Army, bayonets aren't even issued, much less trained with. I keep seeing posts of "well, we have it, why not" and the like. WE DON'T HAVE IT. IMO, in this time and environment if you're leading a bayonet charge, you have failed at everything else up to that point.
The bayonet lug requirement holds back the advancement of .mil rifles. Everyone wants to hold SOF up as a paragon of right and forward thinking...take a look at their weapons. There's your clue.
A lot of the posters don't seem to realize that, at least in the Army, bayonets aren't even issued, much less trained with. I keep seeing posts of "well, we have it, why not" and the like. WE DON'T HAVE IT. IMO, in this time and environment if you're leading a bayonet charge, you have failed at everything else up to that point.
The bayonet lug requirement holds back the advancement of .mil rifles. Everyone wants to hold SOF up as a paragon of right and forward thinking...take a look at their weapons. There's your clue.
Thanks, this is what I was getting at.
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A lot of the posters don't seem to realize that, at least in the Army, bayonets aren't even issued, much less trained with. I keep seeing posts of "well, we have it, why not" and the like. WE DON'T HAVE IT. IMO, in this time and environment if you're leading a bayonet charge, you have failed at everything else up to that point.
The bayonet lug requirement holds back the advancement of .mil rifles. Everyone wants to hold SOF up as a paragon of right and forward thinking...take a look at their weapons. There's your clue.
I almost get a reading of "This Kind of War" flash back when I read things like this.
scoutfsu99
06-28-13, 04:07
Which means?
A lot of the posters don't seem to realize that, at least in the Army, bayonets aren't even issued, much less trained with. I keep seeing posts of "well, we have it, why not" and the like. WE DON'T HAVE IT. IMO, in this time and environment if you're leading a bayonet charge, you have failed at everything else up to that point.
The bayonet lug requirement holds back the advancement of .mil rifles. Everyone wants to hold SOF up as a paragon of right and forward thinking...take a look at their weapons. There's your clue.
Special Forces are just that special and their mission is not the same as the regular infantryman. I'm not suggesting we will ever see WWI trench warfare and large scale bayonet charges. Not issuing and training with bayonets is a serious leadership failure. It's a cop out. Or like said above maybe it's an Army thing. It should be a mindset. It's war. It's ugly and some times it gets really, really ugly. That's when fixing bayonets comes up. Two is one one is none. As we all know shit breaks, usually at the wrong time.
Every Marine is a Rifleman First. I suppose that's the difference.
scoutfsu99
06-28-13, 06:56
I'll agree with some of what you say. But some of your argument is undermined by the picture of a marine using his bayonet to carve a wood dick. There's some warrior mindset for you, dulling his knife to carve a cock.
And I know the slogan, but c'mon man, put down the kool-aid. You know as well as I, that every Marine is not a rifleman. I say that with all due respect and no true inter-service rivalry.
For the Army, in general, we do not issue out bayonets. The only time those dull, beat to shit knives are pulled out is for inventory. And that has little to do with mindset. We have our share of meateaters too.
Every branch has plenty of warriors. The point wasn't to stir the shit, not my style, just to point out its drilled in everyone Marines head from the beginning. You can be a computer guy or a cook but you are expected to qualify with your weapons and know how to use them. You said the Army is not issuing them, that is something I see as a problem. But it's obviously not my decision to make. If the Army had the same mindset I don't think you'd see this happening. I think the decisions are being made by people who are out of touch. And seriously why do we have nukes? We've only ever used two and that was well over sixty years ago. They work when nothing else will and they're a deterrent. It is truly some scary shit. It teaches aggressiveness. I know when I was low on ammo it was comforting knowing I had a bayonet and could still fight with my rifle.
Wonder what the current worldwide opinion of bayonets is? I wouldn't think that many NATO countries still use them (the UK excepted, of course).
scoutfsu99
06-28-13, 10:25
Every branch has plenty of warriors. The point wasn't to stir the shit, not my style, just to point out its drilled in everyone Marines head from the beginning. You can be a computer guy or a cook but you are expected to qualify with your weapons and know how to use them. You said the Army is not issuing them, that is something I see as a problem. But it's obviously not my decision to make. If the Army had the same mindset I don't think you'd see this happening. I think the decisions are being made by people who are out of touch. And seriously why do we have nukes? We've only ever used two and that was well over sixty years ago. They work when nothing else will and they're a deterrent. It is truly some scary shit. It teaches aggressiveness. I know when I was low on ammo it was comforting knowing I had a bayonet and could still fight with my rifle.
I didn't take it as shit stirring or personally. I just disagree with you guys. Bayonets and nukes aren't exactly apple/apple comparisons either. You think bayonets are scary enough to keep. I don't (ETA: not that I take being stabbed lightly). I'd rather carry another magazine. And if it does come to hand to hand, I'd much rather use my knife, E-tool, kevlar, etc than my dull (non)issued bayonet.
The decisions are ALWAYS being made by people who are out of touch. Look at our uniforms, weapons programs, equipment messes, etc. That's how we have senior leadership more worried about PT belts and SHARP than training and shooting.
RogerinTPA
06-28-13, 13:39
I agree in keeping the bayonet and teaching aggressiveness to foster the warrior spirit. It also don't hurt to have one if you should run out of ammo as a last ditch effort. I didn't see too many bayonets in use or carried while on active duty, or in AFG as a contractor, but what I did see on most Soldiers kit was a combat knife of some form, with the occasional bayonet being spotted. I remember keeping a K-Bar on my TA-50 for probably the entire time on active duty. Others had a USAF survival knife, or what ever they preferred. I and others used it mostly as a utility knife for just about everything in the field. I did find comfort in knowing that if everything else went out the window, I had a durable combat knife on my kit. The same can be said for the bayonet. The combat knife trend may have developed because of units not issuing bayonets.
The combat knife trend may have developed because of units not issuing bayonets.
Good point.
I'll agree with some of what you say. But some of your argument is undermined by the picture of a marine using his bayonet to carve a wood dick. There's some warrior mindset for you, dulling his knife to carve a cock.
And I know the slogan, but c'mon man, put down the kool-aid. You know as well as I, that every Marine is not a rifleman. I say that with all due respect and no true inter-service rivalry.
For the Army, in general, we do not issue out bayonets. The only time those dull, beat to shit knives are pulled out is for inventory. And that has little to do with mindset. We have our share of meateaters too.
The book speaks for itself and is relevant to we don't issue those anymore types decisions made by DA, that ends up costing its people
The Army has a whole bunch of warriors in its ranks, but too often their senior leadership gets caught up in the latest trend to make room for that trend the let go of things that probably should be kept.
We issue them and we have stuck people with them in the last 12 years
Heck, even death-dealing aliens are vulnerable to bayonets :p
Even when wielded by a USAF Tech Sergeant
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/600px-BLA_018_zps19eee765.jpg (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/5757_photos/media/600px-BLA_018_zps19eee765.jpg.html)
http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss158/5757_photos/600px-BLA_208_zpsda665ad3.jpg (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/5757_photos/media/600px-BLA_208_zpsda665ad3.jpg.html)
MountainRaven
06-28-13, 21:30
A lot of the posters don't seem to realize that, at least in the Army, bayonets aren't even issued, much less trained with. I keep seeing posts of "well, we have it, why not" and the like. WE DON'T HAVE IT. IMO, in this time and environment if you're leading a bayonet charge, you have failed at everything else up to that point.
The bayonet lug requirement holds back the advancement of .mil rifles. Everyone wants to hold SOF up as a paragon of right and forward thinking...take a look at their weapons. There's your clue.
SOF are not generally called upon to guard EPWs or face down crowds of angry protesters.
Not saying that bayonets should or should not be generally issued, just that there is still a place for them. And you won't always be able to grab a weapon out of the arms room with a bayonet lug on it for those situations where you need one.
I might have already said it but my bayonet was clipped on a handful of times when dealing with hundreds of POW's in '91. Never used it but I was glad it was there. Pointing my rifle with bayonet followed by a few barked orders got immediate compliance. The fact they thought we had super human powers didn't hurt either. Talking to some of the English speaking POWS was pretty funny. They thought we could see at night, partially true with NVGs. They also thought we had to kill a family member to join the Marine Corps. Poor bastards also had mine fields in front of them and behind them. They only new how to get though the one in front.
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