What's to become of the IC rifles?

[BoringGuy45]

Now that the Individual Carbine has be canceled, what do you guys think will become of the ACR, FNAC, BEAR, and Colt Piston Rifle? It seems the HK416 and ARX160 have already got some bites from other agencies and countries, so they're here to stay obviously. But with these other expensive rifles that are having trouble selling to either government or private customers, and the piston AR craze seeming to be cooling off a bit, are we going to see the end of the ACR and a lot of the piston ARs that were in the contest? Or is there still a niche for them?

[Littlelebowski]

I'll bet that ADCOR goes bankrupt.

[TiroFijo]

We will see them in the next IC competition (or whatever the name) that surely will be coming some day...

[IZinterrogator]

If the Colt Piston Rifle is the military equivalent of the LE6940P, I imagine Colt will be making all they can and selling them for over $2K a pop. ACR has already been available for years and will continue to be sold to Magpul fanboys. I also believe that ADCOR will throw in the towel. The big question is the FNAC. I would hope that FN would discontinue the SCAR 16S and sell that instead.

[MountainRaven]

Hopefully Remington/Bushmaster will start to sell improved versions of the ACR. Hopefully.

And maybe FN will update the SCAR 16S to incorporate some of the changes evident in the FNAC.

Not bloody likely. But we can hope. It would help them both sell more guns, though.

[Army Chief]

Hopefully Remington/Bushmaster will start to sell improved versions of the ACR.

You would certainly think that they would go ahead and step aboard the clue bus, now that they've only seen it drive around the block about 1,000 times. No such luck, I guess.

AC

[MarkG]

You would certainly think that they would go ahead and step aboard the clue bus, now that they've only seen it drive around the block about 1,000 times. No such luck, I guess.

AC

I think the question that has to be asked if they missed it, or they let it go by. I don't doubt that it's a mixture of both but I believe the ratio leans heavily towards let it go by. I honestly believe most of the major manufacturers understand their slice of the market and produce accordingly. They have a well founded fear of market saturation, fickle consumers and the economy in general.

[MountainRaven]

You would certainly think that they would go ahead and step aboard the clue bus, now that they've only seen it drive around the block about 1,000 times. No such luck, I guess.

AC

The excuse that they are still "evolving" the mil/LE version at least now holds no water and therefore they have no reason to not begin integrating the improvements into the production civilian ACRs (and they are the only ACRs that they're selling).

Maybe the folks who buy Freedom Group up from Cerberus will be like John Olin: Selling the guns, built the way they need to, at a loss and making up the money with the ammunition and reloading components.

[Razorhunter]

What's this BEAR?

And as for the Colt piston gun, how does it differ from the 6940?

[Redbeardsong]

What's this BEAR?

And as for the Colt piston gun, how does it differ from the 6940?

It has a piston. :lol:

However I'm not sure how it differs from the 6940P.

[Razorhunter]

Oh my bad. I was thinking the 6940 was a piston gun, but Colt hasn't released their piston rifle to the public yet have they?

Regardless, what's "BEAR" all about? Is that just the Beretta gun, or something totally different? Hard to determine due to how the original post above was worded. Thx.

[Littlelebowski]

Regardless, what's "BEAR" all about? Is that just the Beretta gun, or something totally different? Hard to determine due to how the original post above was worded. Thx.

Entry from a company called ADCOR in Maryland with some goofy features. They put out a lot of press about how they were sure to win the competition but apparently didn't do well.

http://adcordefense.com/

[Razorhunter]

Cool. Thx 'Bowski

[BoringGuy45]

I really couldn't quite get the BEAR. It had a big, awkward charging handle in the front that pretty much prevented putting most rail covers/accessories on the side of the gun in addition keeping the standard rear charging handle. I really don't see why a rifle needs two charging handles. One of them really becomes a vestigial organ so to speak.

Also, I can't help but think that the ACR has potential if done right. IIRC, a lot of people here had some great things to say about it when it was still the Magpul Masada. I wonder if the design were sold to another company that makes a quality product or if Magpul had the capacity to mass produce rifles and kept the Masada's production in house if it would be the Army's new carbine.

[Jippo]

I still do think the ACR (I've owned one since last year) hit right on the mark. There are some minor things with it, for sure, but there isn't a rifle that hasn't.

Only major thing wrong with it is the price. Looking at it, it costs next to nothing to produce and still it costs quite a bit when sold. Granted, BM has used good materials on it and it is pretty well made, but... If there was a free market for it like the AR15 market, it'd be cheaper than the run of mill AR. It is just so well designed and easy to produce...

[Army Chief]

I doubt that the ACR would be the Army's new carbine any more than the HK XM8 before it, simply because these trials haven't historically led to actual purchase orders; that said, watching the development cycle of the ACR has been like watching Brett Favre play football. There have been flashes of pure brilliance, but they always seem to get offset by some kind of epic failure in the end. One never knows what to expect next with this program, though I suspect that the once-promising ACR is destined to remain the stillborn curiosity that it is today.

AC

[Jippo]

That is a fitting description of the creation process.

[MountainRaven]

I still do think the ACR (I've owned one since last year) hit right on the mark. There are some minor things with it, for sure, but there isn't a rifle that hasn't.

Only major thing wrong with it is the price. Looking at it, it costs next to nothing to produce and still it costs quite a bit when sold. Granted, BM has used good materials on it and it is pretty well made, but... If there was a free market for it like the AR15 market, it'd be cheaper than the run of mill AR. It is just so well designed and easy to produce...

The price I could deal with. The fact that it weights fifteen pounds bare is the bigger problem, IMHO.


Disclaimer: May not actually weigh fifteen pounds bare.

[Jippo]

The price I could deal with. The fact that it weights fifteen pounds bare is the bigger problem, IMHO.
[/SIZE]

Mine is 3.8kg (8lb? With extended handguard, iron sights, folding stock), just weighed it. ACR is the lightest rifle I have, so I guess I don't mind the weight. At all. :)

Edit: seriously speaking, I think having a light profile barrel would lighten rifle quite a bit. IIRC somebody posted a thread comparing SCAR and ACR component weights, and only part where there really was a difference was the barrel assembly. I tried to search for the thread but couldn't find it.

[Jim D]

You would certainly think that they would go ahead and step aboard the clue bus, now that they've only seen it drive around the block about 1,000 times. No such luck, I guess.

AC

Yeah, they can't seem to have a good idea, even if they paid for it.

All they know how to do is what they've already done, and even then they still manage to screw it up by cutting important corners.

[TehLlama]

I doubt that the ACR would be the Army's new carbine any more than the HK XM8 before it, simply because these trials haven't historically led to actual purchase orders; that said, watching the development cycle of the ACR has been like watching Brett Favre play football. There have been flashes of pure brilliance, but they always seem to get offset by some kind of epic failure in the end. One never knows what to expect next with this program, though I suspect that the once-promising ACR is destined to remain the stillborn curiosity that it is today.

AC

It's been more like the Tony Romo experience - it has all the design capability there, but has established a new precedent for taking something that should be a real winner and just faceplanting out of the gate.

It's just frustrating WHERE they decided to cut corners - I would have been completely okay them half-assing a few things, if they were the sorts of things the aftermarket could swoop in and make right. Where they screwed up is on big important parts which aren't easily remedied by some aftermarket wizardry, I mean for god's sake Magpul exists as it is today because of their excellent aftermarket solution work, yet the ACR in its present state has none of that possibility.

[IZinterrogator]

Oh my bad. I was thinking the 6940 was a piston gun, but Colt hasn't released their piston rifle to the public yet have they?
Colt has released the 6940P to the public, but if you saw the prices they were going for on Gunbroker, you'd find the DI 6920 very acceptable.

[MarkG]

Colt has released the 6940P to the public, but if you saw the prices they were going for on Gunbroker, you'd find the DI 6920 very acceptable.

Actually you you'd find TWO 6920's very acceptable... :D

[Fox33]

Well my 2 cents

I look at this from this perspective. From the top down the current political environment of our military through the prism of the logistical requirements ($$$). Our current Administration has very little emphasis for improving the ground fighters equipment in relation to it's higher priorities for our military such as homosexual advancement in senior ranks and gender diversity in combat arms. (I am not kidding) bluntly nobody cares about wars anymore, or what wins them.

With a very small number of US forces actually involved in kentic operations anymore and all of them SOF. I view this as the primary reasons the IC program died for the conventional forces. NO big army units are going to fighting any major engagements (or so it is thought) for while. Which could be a good thing, it opens the door for 300blk. IMO the savior of the M4 platform.

If and a big IF 300 blk catches fire and the base M4 gets 300 blk and say a piston kit that works. It will put the nail in the coffin of any of these IC guns that have sprung up.

The US military will take 15-20 years before they even think of a new IC and by then a whole new concept (caseless?) might make sense.

Now this dynamic has a profound effect on the civilian market. The logistical support base of these one off designs are not nearly what it is for the AR/M4/M16. That will cause these companies who produce these IC guns to see there is no 200 million dollar contract coming so they will go where the money is, back to the AR. Once people figure out the asskicker 300blk is I think even more focus will head back to the AR

Not saying the ACR or others will go away. But considering the much smaller profit margins to remain cost competitive for these IC guns. There will be less and less resources headed their way. Or they will be limited by their inherent expense. Not a good position to be in when the M4 is so refined.

the SCAR 17S and therefore the 16S might be exceptions because of the mk17/mk20 program. They might have staying power

just my opinion

[Grand58742]

I'll bet that ADCOR goes bankrupt.

They have a lot more going for them other than the Bear. Pretty good sized company with a pretty diverse background. However, I could see them getting out of the small arms market in their own brand name, but still making parts for other companies like in the past.

[Turnkey11]

I'd imagine the same fate for the IC guns that befell the guns that didn't win the SCAR program.