View Full Version : Glock 19 Gen 3 and Walther PPQ @ 60 FPS frame by frame
warpedcamshaft
06-28-13, 23:47
Today I took some HD video at 60 frames per second of me shooting both a Glock 19 Gen 3 and a Walther PPQ (paddle mag release version). Many folks have talked about the recoil impulse of the PPQ and attributed it to slide velocity. I have found that my split times are usually very close with the PPQ, Glock 19, Glock 17, and M&P 9mm, despite the fact that the PPQ feels SUBJECTIVELY snappier. Others have expressed similar observations.
I was curious to see if the recoil impulse of the PPQ was due to slide velocity... In the past, 60 FPS frame by frame has been adequate for me to dissect the recoil impulse of a pistol. I have learned a lot from video.
I am merely posting this information to share the info, and am not going to offer any further info other than the fact that both pistols consistently took the same amount of frames to cycle over the course of many videos:
Ammunition used was 124 grain Nato
Glock:
Frame 1
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/glockframe0.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/glockframe0.jpg.html)
Frame 2
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/glockframe1.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/glockframe1.jpg.html)
Frame 3
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/glockframe2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/glockframe1.jpg.html)
Frame 4
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/glockframe3.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/glockframe1.jpg.html)
Frame 5
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/glockframe4.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/glockframe1.jpg.html)
PPQ:
Frame 1:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/ppqframe0.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/ppqframe0.jpg.html)
Frame 2:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/ppqframe1.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/ppqframe0.jpg.html)
Frame 3:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/ppqframe2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/ppqframe0.jpg.html)
Frame 4:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/ppqframe3.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/ppqframe0.jpg.html)
Frame 5:
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/ppqframe4.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/ppqframe0.jpg.html)
Nice pictures, thanks for sharing.
morbidbattlecry
06-29-13, 22:12
I'm not understanding why you would take video of something then post pictures from the video. As apposed to just posting the video itself. Which would have been much more useful.
60 fps isn't even that fast.
warpedcamshaft
06-29-13, 23:04
I'm not understanding why you would take video of something then post pictures from the video. As apposed to just posting the video itself. Which would have been much more useful.
These are subsequent frames from 2 videos... The frames are recorded at exact intervals and allow me to get a rough idea of the time frame it takes for a weapon to cycle, and get an idea of how the brass is ejecting.
60 fps isn't even that fast.
You are right, however, it is fast enough for me to have learned a lot about handgun technique and recoil characteristics.
For example: A USP 40 fullsize takes several more frames to cycle than a Glock 23 due to the internal recoil buffer spring, the slide actually dwells for an extra frame at the fully rearward position. Spend a little research time and you will learn how the recoil buffer spring alters the recoil feel and sight tracking characteristics of the USP.
I'm not trying to catch a freakin' bullet in mid-air, but being able to get 4 frames of a pistol cycling is interesting to me.
But at that rate you have the slide going both directions between frames. And you don't have an accurate account of when the slide returned to battery because it could have been sitting there waiting for the next frame.
I do find it extremely interesting how you get the weird distortion on the slides and shells in the middle of the sequence though. Do you know what causes that?
warpedcamshaft
06-29-13, 23:16
But at that rate you have the slide going both directions between frames. And you don't have an accurate account of when the slide returned to battery because it could have been sitting there waiting for the next frame.
I do find it extremely interesting how you get the weird distortion on the slides and shells in the middle of the sequence though. Do you know what causes that?
The speed of the slide moving while the frame is being captured on the sensor is what causes the blur.
If you have access to a higher speed camera, it would be great to have higher frame rate video... I am hoping to upgrade someday, but this is the best I have right now.
I would also like to add that you can get a rough idea by looking at a number of "cycles" of the gun and seeing different points of the gun cycling.
It ain't perfect... but I do think it is interesting. I hear your criticism... but, hey... this is the internet... take it for what you think it is worth. If you think it's BS... I respect that.
I would also like to add that you can get a rough idea by looking at a number of "cycles" of the gun and seeing different points of the gun cycling.
That makes sense.
I do find it extremely interesting how you get the weird distortion on the slides and shells in the middle of the sequence though. Do you know what causes that?
The camera's shutter moves from top to bottom, so it records the top part of the slide before it records the lower parts, which shows them farther to the rear. The effect was first noted in the work of Jacques-Henri Lartigue in 1912.
Kinda funny to see the effect on a Glock slide over a century later...
Okie John
Interesting shots and I understand the method behind the madness. Might I suggest a grid pattern back drop next time you do this.
The speed of the slide moving while the frame is being captured on the sensor is what causes the blur.
If you have access to a higher speed camera, it would be great to have higher frame rate video... I am hoping to upgrade someday, but this is the best I have right now.
I would also like to add that you can get a rough idea by looking at a number of "cycles" of the gun and seeing different points of the gun cycling.
It ain't perfect... but I do think it is interesting. I hear your criticism... but, hey... this is the internet... take it for what you think it is worth. If you think it's BS... I respect that.
You done good. Thanks much!
The camera's shutter moves from top to bottom, so it records the top part of the slide before it records the lower parts, which shows them farther to the rear. The effect was first noted in the work of Jacques-Henri Lartigue in 1912.
Kinda funny to see the effect on a Glock slide over a century later...
Okie John
And I was thinking the mighty 9mm was contorting the metal slide.
Thanks for the interesting info.
acaixguard
07-05-13, 06:28
Maybe it's just my interpretation but I'm not seeing a significant difference in muzzle rise between the two. Kind of supports my original feeling that all the Internet jabber about the PPQ's over the top muzzle flip really has been exaggerated?
Nephrology
07-05-13, 07:34
I for one do see a slight difference in the angles of the pistols after the first shot (frame 3 for each). Seems like the PPQ hits a wider angle than the glock 19. Maybe not enough to actually make a difference.
Frankly if your split times are the same....it don't really matter. Rounds on targets are what counts in the end.
warpedcamshaft
07-05-13, 09:33
The PPQ has a different recoil feel than the Glock 17 or 19. I can't really put my finger on why, and I was hoping that this frame by frame would help me sort it out. It really taught me a lot about the USP fullsize when I used the same process.
If you look at my support hand thumb, you can see that it is below the frame of the PPQ during recoil, but still adjacent to the frame on the Glock 19. This video is shot at an upward angle, because of my tripod set up... so keep that in mind.
When you fire the PPQ, it feels a bit "snappier", but on a shot timer I can get pretty similar times (I'm happy with high teen, or even .20 splits at 7 yards with a compact pistol on an IPSC A zone, and both handguns allow me to do so.)
That would seem to disprove that slide velocity accounts for the harsher recoil of the PPQ. I wonder why it "kicks" the way it does?
What is the weight of the slide+barrel in both pistols?
Cool pics.
The new Gopro 3 Black will do 120 fps in 720p.
WickedWillis
07-05-13, 11:33
You realize you cannot criticize the Walther on these forums right? There will be blood.
warpedcamshaft
07-05-13, 12:29
You realize you cannot criticize the Walther on these forums right? There will be blood.
Not really trying to criticize anything. Just sharing an observation I found interesting... And my personal experience of the recoil characteristics that made me want to answer the question of the ppq's "feel" during recoil.
Could it possibly be the Walther's higher bore axis in relation to the shooters hand vs the Glock with a lower bore axis?
Or possibly the Glock has an ever so incrementally "longer slide run length" to full recoil than the Walther to mitigate recoil forces?
warpedcamshaft
07-05-13, 12:44
If anyone has a higher frame rate camera, and has access to, and would be willing to video a ppq and a glock 19 in a similar manner to what I have done... It may be very helpful.
I question whether any of this is useful. In the end the perceotion of the recoils is what really affects the individual shooter.
As you pretty much stated the splits are similar. Most wespons will perform in the hands of a competent pistol shot.
Frame per second count, graph back grounds won't make a bit of difference.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
I question whether any of this is useful. In the end the perceotion of the recoils is what really affects the individual shooter.
As you pretty much stated the splits are similar. Most wespons will perform in the hands of a competent pistol shot.
That and a bit of "read it on the interweb"...
Have enough trigger time on the PPQ now to say that if people think it flips in 9mm they better not shoot many other pistols (1911, etc).
And too many friends who are surprising themselves shooting our PPQ. Just easy to shoot well fast.
Tells me the sum of the ergonomics works in the Walther's benefit.
I could see perceived flip being more of an issue in .40 compared to pistols with lower bore height. Bore height does matter, I've seen that in the Kahr's lower height compared to other compacts. Makes 40 tolerable even in the very small & light package.
This doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding recoil, perceived or actual.
Did the shooter have a better grip during the PPQ firing?
One thing is certain: The bore of the PPQ is higher than that of a Glock. As someone who has sent plenty of rounds through a P99, I think that is the most glaringly obvious fact in these discussions.
M4C is full of some of the most short bus discussions I've seen since arfcom, but these really do it.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-06-13, 18:19
Neat pictures
One thing is certain: The bore of the PPQ is higher than that of a Glock. As someone who has sent plenty of rounds through a P99, I think that is the most glaringly obvious fact in these discussions.
And if all other things were equal, you'd have a strong case. But they are not. Slide weight, spring rates, energy required to unlock the action, and (most importantly) CG all have as much or more of an effect.
The physics around difference in bore height to grip and bore to CG is a game of percentages. As in a few percent. And is applied to the recoil force, which on 9mm is fairly tame.
Could you measure a difference on 9's? I'm sure it could be measured. Does it really impact speed/accuracy, so far many people have not been able to detect it.
Maybe the ergo's of the PPQ/P99 allow for better grips. Or the grip angle of the Glocks the opposite. Don't know. But I do know that people find the PPQ very easy to shoot fast, accurately.
Shooting 40 does make the impact of differences like bore height more apparent, and there are anecdotes from the SW99 large Metro PD experience that scores improved in annual testing when they switched away from SW99 in 40 to SW M&P in 9mm. I believe them to be true, as I trust the person who shared/experienced them. But how much of that was just the difference in 9 vs 40?
Ultimately, shoot what you like and shoot best with. Beyond that it's just commentary for fun. I'm a bit intrigued at why the PPQ works as well as it appears to, it's counter-intuitive. I'd like to understand why.
warpedcamshaft
07-06-13, 21:31
What is the weight of the slide+barrel in both pistols?
Glock 19: 12.4
Walther PPQ: 11.5
warpedcamshaft
07-06-13, 21:46
Also,
Regarding the bore axis discussion... I would encourage folks to search out some comments by Bruce Gray regarding bore axis. Bruce has shot Sigs and HK's of various flavors extensively in a competitive environment, and had some interesting comments regarding how bore axis impacts performance. (Hint: Think HK P7 vs USP or P226)
As a quick summary of what he had to say: There are so many factors that impact the characteristics of a handgun that pointing to bore axis exclusively is not going to give you the whole story.
(Hint: Think HK P7 vs USP or P226)
As a quick summary of what he had to say: There are so many factors that impact the characteristics of a handgun that pointing to bore axis exclusively is not going to give you the whole story.
Have to love the P7 though, one of my favorite 9's to shoot! But maybe I'm just weird that way.
Not sure it's better/faster for square range work by experienced shooters, but still feel the idea had promise for quick but safe duty carry by relatively untrained types.
(slide + barrel mass)
Glock 19: 12.4
Walther PPQ: 11.5
The lower the recoiling mass, the higher the slide velocity (given same ammo and recoil impulse) and the impact at end of rearward stroke, where the recoil is really felt.
warpedcamshaft
07-07-13, 12:48
Don't forget about the recoil spring....
Within normal ranges used, the recoil spring cannot decelerate the slide too much... slide+barrel mass has a much greater influence in recoil velocity.
Certainly an interesting idea to use a hi-speed camera to record various guns while shooting---I agree a grid superimposed over the image would be helpful as well as an even higher speed camera to catch the actual operation of the slide better. Still, good work...
The whole "high-bore" axis thing is another subject all together---interesting that HKs---often criticized for their high-bore axis, are (in my opinion) some of the softest shooting pistols I have shot (and I have shot a LOT!).
Another factor has to be hand size and strength---the firm grip helps control the pistol upon firing. Just watch the gun move about in the hand of an inexperienced or weak shooter...
warpedcamshaft
07-09-13, 00:08
Just for fun/the heck of it... Here is a USP 40 with 165 grain Winchester FMJ (once again 60 FPS, note how many more frames the firearm's cycling process occupies):
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp1.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp1.jpg.html)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp2.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp2.jpg.html)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp3.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp2.jpg.html)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp4.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp2.jpg.html)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp5.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp2.jpg.html)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp6.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp2.jpg.html)
http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w473/warpedcamshaft/usp7.jpg (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/warpedcamshaft/media/usp2.jpg.html)
warpedcamshaft
07-09-13, 00:17
Another interesting thing: the Glock 23 Gen 4 cycles much faster than the USP 40 fullsize, but slower than the Glock 19 or Walther PPQ. (Tried G23 and USP with 165 and 180 grain loads with similar results)
Just a quick thought on frame rate, and measuring stuff with it...
I've been taking a lot of high speed pics lately, usually of stuff blowing up, and have noticed that the 'event' can happen anywhere in the window where the shutter is open, and may record differently because of it. Often, I'll get half of an explosion in my still because of this (the bottom half, it would seem, most often). Sometimes in the presence of muzzle flash, it won't record at all, because it happens between frames.
The more frames an event happens over, the more accurate the observations would be, I would think, as the starting time in a single frame becomes less important.
Here is some fast moving stuff with a Gopro3 Black at 120 frames per second:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e200/eodinert/JamesonCarl_zpsa1bd3151.jpg
When looking at high speed videos of guns operation, I find that 5000 frames per second is the minimum to get an accurate idea of what is going on, and finer mechanical stuff require at least double this speed.
Even 1000 frames per second is too slow for basic measuring of slide speed, etc.
warpedcamshaft
07-10-13, 23:07
When looking at high speed videos of guns operation, I find that 5000 frames per second is the minimum to get an accurate idea of what is going on, and finer mechanical stuff require at least double this speed.
Even 1000 frames per second is too slow for basic measuring of slide speed, etc.
Mind letting the rest of us know where you get this footage and what kind of equipment you use to acquire it. I'm curious.
It's easy finding equipment to that, the hard part is paying for it.
You jump from $400 to $20,000 if you want good resolution while you do it.
Mind letting the rest of us know where you get this footage and what kind of equipment you use to acquire it. I'm curious.
I did not taped it, just reviewed the videos :)
Ten years ago it was very pricy stuff and the people testing firearms kept most of the high speed videos (usually paid by gun makers) like trade secrets. It was difficult to get independent stuff or videos OK'd for free release.
With the prices falling nowadays we're getting closer to the day knowledgeable amateurs with the right equipment will discover some very interesting tid bits, and actually measure things that were impossible before.
TakeAwayTheFear
07-11-13, 17:52
Cool pics! Always wanted to play with a ppq
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