View Full Version : 18 firefighters killed battling forest fire in Az
Breaking now. Bad fire in Yarnell. They are expecting the entire town to burn.
Just saw that, too. Sad. :(
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/30/us/arizona-missing-firefighters/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
wow, just heard it... man that is horrible.
SeriousStudent
06-30-13, 22:40
Oh my God, 18 guys.....
My thoughts and prayers are with the fallen firefighters, their families and friends. :(
Its at 19 now. Approximately 250 homes believed to be destroyed.
montanadave
06-30-13, 22:52
Reminiscent of the Mann Gulch fire near Helena, MT, when 13 smokejumpers were trapped and killed by a wildfire.
Absolutely tragic. My heart goes out to the families of these firefighters.
Reminiscent of the Mann Gulch fire near Helena, MT, when 13 smokejumpers were trapped and killed by a wildfire.
Absolutely tragic. My heart goes out to the families of these firefighters.
When was that? I remember that, or something similar, when I was a kid. Having been on scene of many fires as traffic control and scene containment I have seen how fast and unpredictable urban fires can be. Out in the desert, especially with the heat wave we have had this week, I cant imagine how fast things can turn on you.
montanadave
06-30-13, 23:07
When was that? I remember that, or something similar, when I was a kid. Having been on scene of many fires as traffic control and scene containment I have seen how fast and unpredictable urban fires can be. Out in the desert, especially with the heat wave we have had this week, I cant imagine how fast things can turn on you.
1949.
Norman Maclean (A River Runs Through It) wrote a book about the incident titled Young Men and Fire. An excellent book, BTW, which also includes a lot of background information on the behavior of wildfires and the tactics employed by firefighters to protect themselves against the unpredictability of fires.
Which makes me believe something must have gone very wrong in Arizona. This was a hotshot crew and these guys, the incident commanders, and support teams plan their firefighting strategies to ensure the safety of the firefighters and always maintain an escape route should the fire shift unexpectedly.
News and witnesses in the area said it shifted really fast Basically the fire changed directions 180 degrees and there was 40 mph wind gusts. One lady stated that as she was evacuating here house caught on fire.
Plus this is pretty hilly terrain and you could get stuck pretty easily if things go bad.
If you live, work, and or play in Arizona I highly recommend the 100 Club as a worthwhile charity if one is looking for a place to give. In the next 24 hours the 100 Club will be at the door of each and every one of those firefighters killed and of those Arizona firefighters injured fighting this blaze. No membership or affiliation of the first responder is required, only that they gave all for the people of Arizona.
You can check them out here.
http://www.100club.org/web/100Club
SeriousStudent
07-01-13, 00:21
kmrtnsn, thanks very much for that link. I used to wear a St Florian's medallion myself.
If anyone can give something, please do so.
SWATcop556
07-01-13, 00:33
RIP. A very sad day indeed. The 100 club is a very worthy cause and I donate regularly. Unfortunately I've seen them in action too many times and they are all good people.
http://www.cityofprescott.net/_i/fire/hotshots_crew_sm.jpg
Alaskapopo
07-01-13, 00:55
Oh my God, 18 guys.....
My thoughts and prayers are with the fallen firefighters, their families and friends. :(
I hear you that is sad. My thoughts go out as well. True heros.
Pat
montanadave
07-01-13, 08:25
I've read that the Granite Mountain hotshot crew was a twenty-man crew. Were they one man short on Sunday when this tragedy occurred or did one member of the team survive? Anybody have any additional info?
Again, shades of the Mann Gulch disaster--a fifteen-man smokejumper crew with two survivors.
skullworks
07-01-13, 08:51
I have a Prescott-area college friend who's currently up there fighting that fire (actually, come to think of it I may have several...)
Very sad situation.
News is saying one guy survived bit burned pretty bad.
ShortytheFirefighter
07-01-13, 09:22
1949.
Norman Maclean (A River Runs Through It) wrote a book about the incident titled Young Men and Fire. An excellent book, BTW, which also includes a lot of background information on the behavior of wildfires and the tactics employed by firefighters to protect themselves against the unpredictability of fires.
Which makes me believe something must have gone very wrong in Arizona. This was a hotshot crew and these guys, the incident commanders, and support teams plan their firefighting strategies to ensure the safety of the firefighters and always maintain an escape route should the fire shift unexpectedly.
I read that book two summers ago and have been working on planning a trip to Mann Gulch since. An excellent look at the disaster that happened and a great look at wildfire behaviors. Norman MacLean's son did a great book as well on the Storm King fire that killed 14 firefighters much more recently.
Wildland crews have balls like church bells. It's one thing to run into a burning building when you have structural gear on, with a hoseline connected to a municipal water supply and a pump that'll deliver all the water you'll need. It's a completely different world when you're going out on a fireline with axes, shovels and chainsaws and going up against a fire that is mobile and capable of outrunning even a brush truck, and can do so at the merest shift of the wind.
RIP to each of those firefighters, and God Bless their families.
ShortytheFirefighter
07-01-13, 09:27
I've read that the Granite Mountain hotshot crew was a twenty-man crew. Were they one man short on Sunday when this tragedy occurred or did one member of the team survive? Anybody have any additional info?
Again, shades of the Mann Gulch disaster--a fifteen-man smokejumper crew with two survivors.
IIRC there were 16 men on the ground at Mann Gulch, 15 jumpers and 1 Forest Ranger. The team leader and two jumpers were the sole survivors. Two other jumpers survived the initial fire but died the following day of their burns. 13 fatalities...The Forest Service ranger who went back to investigate the scene ended up dying of a heart attack at the scene. Truly a sad story.
montanadave
07-01-13, 10:01
Thanks, Shorty, for the additional info and corrections. I'll have to look up those books by John Maclean. It was years ago that I read Young Men and Fire and I did not realize it was published after Norman Maclean's death with his son John preparing the final manuscript. As you mentioned, John Maclean has written multiple books on wildfires, which all appear to have received positive reviews and one of which was made into an award-winning documentary for the History Channel.
Gaining an understanding of the extremely volatile nature of these wildfires and the rugged terrain in which these crews often find themselves provides a much greater appreciation of how dangerous this work is and the dedication and bravery of the men and women that comprise these hotshot crews.
C-grunt, thanks for the update on the lone survivor. I hope he recovers quickly from his injuries but I have to believe the psychological scars from this tragedy will never fully heal. I can't imagine his pain, both physically and emotionally.
ShortytheFirefighter
07-01-13, 13:21
For me one of the most chilling things in that book was where they found the tools that the men had been carrying. Wildland crews are like structural crews. We're taught from the beginning that you always go in with a tool, and you don't leave it under any circumstances. When those men dropped their tools, they knew they were running for their lives.
Afterwards, when the distances covered by each man before they were overtaken by the fire were measured, it was astounding to see how quickly they had been running uphill in wildland gear over broken terrain.
For some further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mann_Gulch_fire
platoonDaddy
07-01-13, 13:34
May they RIP
Heard this morning on FoxNews, that their last resort pup tent is only effective 50% of the time. Think with today's technology they would design a last resort tent that would have better survival rate.
Edit, located the following: He explained that the firefighters had to deploy their emergency shelters, essentially pup tents made out of reflective material, when "something drastic happened." "Under certain conditions there's usually only sometimes a 50 percent chance that they survive," he added. "It's an extreme measure that's taken under the absolute worst conditions."
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/nineteen-firefighters-killed-in-arizona-wildfire.html
May they RIP
Heard this morning, that their last resort pup tent is only effective 50% of the time. Think would today's technology they would design a last resort tent that would have better survival rate.
We were talking about it this morning in briefing. Our thoughts were that you might survive the fire but there probably isn't much oxygen in a wildfire like that.
platoonDaddy
07-01-13, 13:39
We were talking about it this morning in briefing. Our thoughts were that you might survive the fire but there probably isn't much oxygen in a wildfire like that.
Since they are the A-Team of firefighters and deployed to the worst part of the fire, wouldn't they carry oxygen?
ShortytheFirefighter
07-01-13, 14:20
Because it would be more of a hazard than a help, especially if those oxygen tanks were to start cooking off from the heat. Exhaling/inhaling pure oxygen in a flame filled environment generally isn't advised either.
Assuming you're talking about compressed air vs oxygen, it's because it's typically not needed in a wildland setting and would only be more weight for them to carry, and they'd likely have no way to refill their bottles.
Our department uses Scott SCBAs that weigh in around 30lbs or so, and you'd need spare bottles. Lots of extra weight and bulk for something that you're almost never, if ever going to need in a wildland fire and if things are to that point, the air isn't going to make a difference anyway. These guys need to move quickly and an SCBA doesn't really allow for that.
platoonDaddy
07-01-13, 17:03
Because it would be more of a hazard than a help, especially if those oxygen tanks were to start cooking off from the heat. Exhaling/inhaling pure oxygen in a flame filled environment generally isn't advised either.
Assuming you're talking about compressed air vs oxygen, it's because it's typically not needed in a wildland setting and would only be more weight for them to carry, and they'd likely have no way to refill their bottles.
Our department uses Scott SCBAs that weigh in around 30lbs or so, and you'd need spare bottles. Lots of extra weight and bulk for something that you're almost never, if ever going to need in a wildland fire and if things are to that point, the air isn't going to make a difference anyway. These guys need to move quickly and an SCBA doesn't really allow for that.
Thank you very much for the education, never read a clearer explanation.
Stay out-of-harms-way!
EDIT - forgot to add: over the years has the emergency pup tents improved or is the technology stagnate?
Just an unfathomable loss. I'm truly heartbroken by this...
montanadave
07-01-13, 19:48
EDIT - forgot to add: over the years has the emergency pup tents improved or is the technology stagnate?
Years ago, friends of mine working the Yellowstone Park fires referred to those as "shake and bake" bags, as in shake 'em out, crawl in, and get ready to bake. It was an option that no one was eager to deploy.
I've read articles today that use the same terminology. I'm guessing there have been some improvements but it's still a last-ditch, out-of-any-other-good-options survival tool.
platoonDaddy
07-01-13, 20:59
Member "dog guy" doesn't have the post totals to post to the GD Forum, PM'd me the following. Great read on the fire shelters.
Originally Posted by dog guy
See http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/newshelt72.pdf for some info on the fire shelters. We're currently using the "new generation" shelters, which were fielded starting around 2003-2006 or so.
They're an improvement over the version they replaced. The problem is that plain old physics keeps us from being able to field a shelter which will protect you from intense fire, yet still be man-portable. The energy output from a wind driven wild fire is amazing, especially if there's a heavy fuel load. Some fires are simply not survivable in anything short of a bunker, and your only hope is to not be there.
This is so tragic, my heart goes out to all of the families and loved ones.
montanadave
07-01-13, 23:11
Member "dog guy" doesn't have the post totals to post to the GD Forum, PM'd me the following. Great read on the fire shelters.
Originally Posted by dog guy
See http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/newshelt72.pdf for some info on the fire shelters. We're currently using the "new generation" shelters, which were fielded starting around 2003-2006 or so.
They're an improvement over the version they replaced. The problem is that plain old physics keeps us from being able to field a shelter which will protect you from intense fire, yet still be man-portable. The energy output from a wind driven wild fire is amazing, especially if there's a heavy fuel load. Some fires are simply not survivable in anything short of a bunker, and your only hope is to not be there.
Thanks for the link (and thanks to dog guy also). Very informative. The quotes from survivors give a real sense of how horrifying being trapped by a fire is.
ShortytheFirefighter
07-02-13, 09:29
Thank you very much for the education, never read a clearer explanation.
Stay out-of-harms-way!
EDIT - forgot to add: over the years has the emergency pup tents improved or is the technology stagnate?
If I stayed out of harms way, I wouldn't have a job ;)
Thank you for the kind words though!
Regarding the shelters, I couldn't really tell you. I'm a structural firefighter with the occasional grass fire in my city. While we share the title Firefighter, wildland and structural crews are two different breeds with two different tasks. However, based on what I do know from working and training with wildland guys the shelters have improved but still aren't a foolproof solution. I read this morning that the seams on the shelter start to come apart at 500 degrees after prolonged exposure, and you'll easily see temperatures much, much higher than that in a wind driven wildfire. Another problem is keeping them anchored as they're lightweight and the conditions inside a wildfire are extremely turbulent.
On the structural side, we see the same thing happening with our gear. Interior fires today burn much hotter and much dirtier due to fewer natural material furnishings and more plastics and synthetic materials. Modern homes are essentially furnished with #2 Diesel fuel, with the result being much higher temperatures and also lower flashpoints. Modern turnout gear is extremely effective in protecting against the higher temperatures, but it also creates a problem for us on two fronts: First, with the lower flashpoint temps (450-650 degrees) we may not even know we're getting into a bad situation because we don't feel the heat through the turnout gear like we used to. Second, our facepieces are good to about 500 degrees or so before failure. Same problem, we may not know we're in a bad environment until it's too late. There is a new standard coming out to address this, but it takes time for things to change.
ICANHITHIMMAN
07-04-13, 08:50
Reminiscent of the Mann Gulch fire near Helena, MT, when 13 smokejumpers were trapped and killed by a wildfire.
Absolutely tragic. My heart goes out to the families of these firefighters.
Just my thoughts, I worked with another Ironworker named Larry he was in the "hot shot" crew on the other side of the MTN that day. Its one hell of a sad story but he will tell it just so we all remember them.
Alpha Sierra
07-04-13, 09:55
How many of these wildfires should we just let burn? If human life or property are not directly threatened, why are we sacrificing lives? To appease radical environmentalists?
The world wonders.........
How many of these wildfires should we just let burn? If human life or property are not directly threatened, why are we sacrificing lives? To appease radical environmentalists?
The world wonders.........
This fire burned down half a town. He fire fighters are expecting to find more dead in the town as they know several people ignored the evacuation order.
129 structures destroyed. Definitely not just shrubs that got torched...
ICANHITHIMMAN
07-04-13, 13:45
How many of these wildfires should we just let burn? If human life or property are not directly threatened, why are we sacrificing lives? To appease radical environmentalists?
The world wonders.........
Unfortunately we need the fires, they stopped them all or at least tried to at one point in time, but it had a negative effect on the environment. The men who died are/were never charged with putting it out, only containing and directing. No one forced them to do what they did and it is truly a sad day for all those involved. Long story short I dont think the environmentalist have a lot to do with it.
I can understand wanting to honor the firefighters who lost their lives but this is just disgraceful. Since when has it been OK to let the flag of the United States of America touch the ground? I'll answer for you - NEVER. To add insult to injury, the union is to be placed at the head over the left shoulder when covering a casket, not a body bag.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/p480x480/1044720_397282840382866_620257681_n.jpg
Slow your roll killer. I'm as anal as you, but try to see the intent behind it.
Alaskapopo
07-07-13, 03:10
I can understand wanting to honor the firefighters who lost their lives but this is just disgraceful. Since when has it been OK to let the flag of the United States of America touch the ground? I'll answer for you - NEVER. To add insult to injury, the union is to be placed at the head over the left shoulder when covering a casket, not a body bag.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/p480x480/1044720_397282840382866_620257681_n.jpg
Not everyone has the same training when it comes to respect for the flag as the military. Cut the guys some slack there are far far more important things to worry about like grieving for the dead firefighters.
Pat
HackerF15E
07-07-13, 07:13
That's a powerful image.
SeriousStudent
07-07-13, 12:29
Regarding the flags, I'd look at the intent behind it.
Letting the American flag touch the ground is frowned upon when done through either carelessness or malice. I truly do not believe those motives were present here.
These folks had lost 19 of their brothers, with another badly injured. Keep that as a reference, when you think of their state of mind. The only thing I can think of worse than recovering the body of a fallen brother, would be performing that task on one's own child.
I'm not chiding anyone here. Just saying that as a former hosedragger myself, I believe those men likely wanted nothing more than to honor a fallen comrade.
And I agree with HackerF15E, that's a very powerful image. :(
Again, my prayers go out to all those affected by this tragic loss of life.
platoonDaddy
09-29-13, 07:24
Friggin comm issues
Radio problems cited in deaths of 19 Arizona firefighters
An investigative report into the deaths of 19 firefighters killed in June while battling a blaze in Arizona has found that problems with radio communication played a key role in the tragedy
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/29/radio-problems-cited-in-deaths-1-arizona-firefighters/
If you actually read the article, it says their comms were fine. They just didn't use them.
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