Forward Assist?

[Aubrey]

I really curious what the forward assist was specifically designed for and what the practical application of it is. Please enlighten me.

[Stickman]

Aubrey,

I use the forward assist after a press check, or if I need to chamber a round quietly. It is not ever used in any malfunction clearance work that I do (or teach).

I should add that I also usually tap it right before I am making entry into a structure, starting a track, or entering a hostile area. Thats more because I think Murphy has it out for me than based on any bad experiences with the weapon.

[M4arc]

Stickman, it's good to see you over here!

[K.L. Davis]

The FA has been a contentuous part of the rifle from the start, the Air Force did not see a reason for it but the Army did.

Most likely something the older grunts wanted to make them feel good... the M16 was replacing a rifle that had a reciprocating charging handle and the operator could work the bolt back and forth at will.

The idea is that it can be used to force a round into the chamber... if the rifle is very dirty was one example. Some argue that forcing a round into a dirty chamber is bad joo-joo any way you look at it -- others say sometimes you have no choice.

Like Stick says, I tap on it out of habbit... conditioned reflex honestly.

Here is the bottom line for me. The only argument I have ever heard for not having one was that it makes the rifle lighter? This usually comes from someone that has an easy 3 - 5 pounds in handles, lights, rails, covers, bumpers, guides and doo-dads... the FA adds a few ounces.

On the other side of the argument, I was once transitioning from water to land in a very cold place... my rifle was not bagged. I did my best to evacuate the bore and all of that, but I ended up with a rifle with the bolt locked half way back by ice -- naturally, at this precise moment I needed it to work.

I had a bruise on the palm of my hand for a few days from whacking the FA, but it did exactly as it was desigend to and closed the bolt, returing my rifle to working condition... I like that.

I'll trade the few onces of weigth for the potential to have to use it that one in a million times.

[SethB]

I haven't found a use for the forward assist, though I have found a few who have. Indeed, the only time an instructor has told me to use it his logic was "Because they put it there for a reason." That said, several men that I respect greatly do find a use for it. We disagree, and I do not press the matter.

I can understand using it for press checks, although I do not use them that way, but a better option may be to press your thumb against the relief in the carrrier that the port door mechanism engages. In fact, the Norwegian G3 has serrations for just this purpose.

If you do want an upper without a FA, consider that the only good options you have (by that I mean quality manufactured, forged recievers) are older USGI A1s, Diemaco LMG/LSW uppers, some Colt A4 9MM uppers, Les Baer uppers and the VLTOR VIS. Getting M4 cuts is a whole different story.

I don't necessarily have anything agains the DPMS unit, but it isn't really any lighter, and it doesn't come with a port door or deflector.

EDIT:K. if you think I'm a freak about weight, you should see my latest carbine.

[BravoCompanyUSA]

I have always used it out of habit. That is the was I was taught. I have heard that the use of the FA is not being taught anymore, but I don't know if that is true or errornet info.

In any event, I have effectively chambered a number of rounds in a filthy weapon using the FA - Very often the FA bump was followed by the rest of the rounds in the mag loading perfectly.

But perhaps the best example (similar to the real world accounts provided by KL Davis - posted above), would be for me to quote this news story from the Jessica Lynch capture in Iraq. The Soldier was PFC Miller, and I have heard him tell his story many times. In a nutshell, he was a mechanic, didn't fire his weapon in month (probably wasn't maintained per the manual?) but when he assualted an Iraqi morter position, his weapon jammed after each and every shot. He simply smacked the FA, and fired the next shot. I guess he went through a couple mags that way. He would probably PM his weapon like a religion if he got the chance again, but I will bet he loves the idea of a FA.

Here is some of a CBS new article on the story. There are other better accounts, but this is the first one I found.


But after that first shot, his rifle jammed. He had to pound on it with the palm of his hand, after every shot, to get the next bullet loaded into the chamber. He kept on re-loading and shooting
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/06/60minutes/main582354.shtml

[SethB]

Paul, I can assure you that Gunsite and EAG do not use the FA in their clearance drills. That said, I haven't personally experienced a problem that requires the FA, and I ran an MRP right to 3500 rounds without maintenance, when the extractor stripped the rim rather than remove the cartridge from such a dirty chamber.

K. Davis brings up a good point in that their are indeed times when it may be useful, but if I were to write the specification it would be on the other side, and manipulated by the left hand.

Another thing that may be necessary is using the FA more than once. I have a stripped A2 upper here, and with the bolt carrier fully to the rear it takes 11 separate manipulations to fully close the bolt. Take that for what it is worth.

[Ross]

When you crossed a water obstacle, the Army taught you to crack the vacum of the bore by partially pulling the charging handle back and shaking the water out of the bore. That way you didn't blow yourself up if there was water in the barrel. When you let the bolt go, it would be from only a partially open position and not all the way back, so it might not have the force to actually go all the way shut, so you were supposed to hit the FA until the bolt was all the way forward. That's one real reason

I hit it every time I put a new mag in the weapon and hit the release button, mostly out of ritual. I don't really think it ever did anything one way or the other, especially since you weren't going to be hitting it between shots as targets popped up, but rituals are rituals. That's one reason that probably isn't a good one, but I do it anyway.

It is possible that it was placed there to also deal with the "bolt carrier rebound" that the early guns suffered from. While that was cured by putting the weights in the buffer, it would also explain why the Army would want a way to manually close the bolt as well. I've experienced "bolt carrier rebound" on an early Sudanese AR-10, and you're going to have to pull the charging handle anyway to cock the rifle, so you feeded a new round at the same time. On the Sudanese AR-10, there was no FA (though the Portugese one had an FA, kinda like an Izzy FAL), so if the bolt carrier bounced back again on the retry, you pushed it forward with your thumb ala SethB mentions with the G3. While not really a reason because of the buffer change, I could certainly see the Army reasoning the need for one even if the problem was otherwise cured. This is only a conjecture for a real reason, as I haven't found any supporting evidence, but my experince with the problem in the AR-10 would make an FA perfect to deal with it.

As a side note, I added weights to my AR-10 buffer, just like they did with the AR-15. I figured same problem-same solution. It worked great and I never had the problem again. Like an idiot, I sold that gun, but hey you could just buy another one anytime. It's not like someone would pass a law making it illegal or something.

[Aubrey]

...you were supposed to hit the FA until the bolt was all the way forward. That's one real reason

I hit it every time I put a new mag in the weapon and hit the release button, mostly out of ritual. I don't really think it ever did anything one way or the other, especially since you weren't going to be hitting it between shots as targets popped up, but rituals are rituals. That's one reason that probably isn't a good one, but I do it anyway...


Ross,
Do you do this on speed reloads as well as tac loads and make-ready loads?

[Bill Z]

I always thought that was what the recess in the carrier was for. If you canot chamber one by using it to seat the bolt/round, I'm not sure I want to take the chance of forcing it in.

[olds442tyguy]

But perhaps the best example (similar to the real world accounts provided by KL Davis - posted above), would be for me to quote this news story from the Jessica Lynch capture in Iraq. The Soldier was PFC Miller, and I have heard him tell his story many times. In a nutshell, he was a mechanic, didn't fire his weapon in month (probably wasn't maintained per the manual?) but when he assualted an Iraqi morter position, his weapon jammed after each and every shot. He simply smacked the FA, and fired the next shot. I guess he went through a couple mags that way. He would probably PM his weapon like a religion if he got the chance again, but I will bet he loves the idea of a FA.

Here is some of a CBS new article on the story. There are other better accounts, but this is the first one I found.


But after that first shot, his rifle jammed. He had to pound on it with the palm of his hand, after every shot, to get the next bullet loaded into the chamber. He kept on re-loading and shooting
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/06/60minutes/main582354.shtml
Great story. That simply goes to show that while the FA shouldn't be used to force a round in the chamber, sometimes that may be the best option you have.

[SethB]

The recess at the carrier is to engage the port door upon cycling.

[Bill Z]

The recess at the carrier is to engage the port door upon cycling.
I would say that the port door is engaged by the recess, but the recess is there for you to 'thumb' the bolt into place. The original AR-15 didn't have a forward assist and this is how the bolt was moved forward if necessary. The FA came along later. YMMV, but my personal rule is, if you need the FA to get a round chambered, chances are you may not really want that round chambered. There is something definately wrong if you need to bang on it.

[Bill Z]

Great story. That simply goes to show that while the FA shouldn't be used to force a round in the chamber, sometimes that may be the best option you have.

At best, it's plan 'B' when you have nothing to lose.

[Hobbes]

I would say that the port door is engaged by the recess, but the recess is there for you to 'thumb' the bolt into place. The original AR-15 didn't have a forward assist and this is how the bolt was moved forward if necessary. The FA came along later. YMMV, but my personal rule is, if you need the FA to get a round chambered, chances are you may not really want that round chambered. There is something definately wrong if you need to bang on it.

This is true, but again in a real life scenario you get the round chambered no matter what, plus using the FA is much easier than sticking your thumb in the EP, something I personally have never been taught.

I always use the FA since doing a press check (something I think should be done whenever you go condition 1) sometimes the bolt doesn't seat as others have already pointed out.

[Bill Z]

This is true, but again in a real life scenario you get the round chambered no matter what, plus using the FA is much easier than sticking your thumb in the EP, something I personally have never been taught.

I always use the FA since doing a press check (something I think should be done whenever you go condition 1) sometimes the bolt doesn't seat as others have already pointed out.

Anything works when it is used properly and to the extent of someones training. In the case you describe, touching it off after a press check, I can see and understand for peace of mind. Once a round has been fully seated, there shouldn't be any problem. Where people can get themselves into trouble, and this usually goes hand in hand with the lack of proper training, is when a round only feeds 50-60-75% or so, and you automatically try to drive it in with the FA. There is something definately wrong. Is this the first round of the day? Is your rifle clean? Is the ammo in spec? Is there an obstruction? Neck separation form the last round? There is just too much going on here that has not been addressed or qualified. Have you ever had to try to open someones bolt by beating on the charging handle when they jammed it with the forward assist? Have you ever had to take a rifle apart because the charging handle broke form plan 'A' above?

Just because I have never had a bolt fail to seat fully doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it shouldn't happen. Just because I haven't been taught something doesn't mean it isn't true either. I think we just need to consider all of the possibilities, especially when the the reprocussions can endanger life, limb, and equipment. Nothing replaces proper instruction.

[Ross]

Ross,
Do you do this on speed reloads as well as tac loads and make-ready loads?

Sorry for the late reply, I've been on vacation:D

No, I don't do it on any reloads at all, only on the first mag/slow target range only/pop-up range, etc. For actual usage in training, or anything else really I pretty much ignore the FA. That's why I considered it more a "ritual" rather than something I work into my use.

It's like tapping the back of the mag on your helmet or boot heel. Yeah, I still do it when I'm just putting the first mag in the rifle, but it quickly gets lost if I need to put a second mag in the rifle.

I suppose it's a bad habit, though I've never found myself trying to hit the FA when I didn't need to. It certainly isn't something that needs to be done for just a reload IMO.

To be honest, I never really thought about it at all until this thread.

[ex_soldier1911]

Lets not forget, if we didn't have the FA, we would have to change SPORTS to SPORS.

[SuicideHz]

So which of you guys can actually push your thumb in the recess in the bolt carrier and push the bolt forward without pushing so hard your thumb just slides right off? Sure, it is easy to move forward when it wants to, but how about when it doesn't, like the situations we are describing here?

That depression is just for the spring and detent for the port cover, nothing more. If it was meant to be a place for your thumb to push the carrier forward, it wouldn't be so smooth and slippery. That area could just as easily be cut straight for an easier grip while the inside of the port cover and the latch guts could be rounded so as not to catch but gently pop out of the way.

[SethB]

Push, Pull, Rack and Roll!

[Cyclic240B]

Lets not forget, if we didn't have the FA, we would have to change SPORTS to SPORS.

Heheh, now that would be odd after having SPORTS rattle through my mind a million times over the last 12 years.

That said, and assuming proper PMCS and staked BCGs and whatnot. What immediate action drills are taught in the latest, greatest, civillian ran classes? And if it is the case, and or consensous, what is wrong with SPORTS for your IAD's?

Being an 11B for so long, I can't count the times the FA has kept me running. From -20 frozen up sluggish cycling at the NWTC, to sand caked failure to lock stoppages at NTC, the FA has served me well.

The FA is there for a reason, and when your in the heat of the action, a proper diagnosis of your stoppage is not possible. PFC Miller is a classic case of this in action, that FA saved his ass. Yes, his stoppages were most likely his fault for shoddy PMCS, which is a leadership issue, but at that moment it didn't matter. What did is he knew what to do, and did so in conjunction with his FA.

[Hoplophile]

What immediate action drills are taught in the latest, greatest, civillian ran classes? And if it is the case, and or consensous, what is wrong with SPORTS for your IAD's?

If you're in handgun range and have a handgun then the IAD is to transition to the sidearm. Failing that, the drill with both pistols and carbines is tap-rack-assess. Make sure the mag is fully seated, manually cycle the action, get back on target. If it fails to fire on the second attempt then ditch the mag, manually cycle a couple times to make sure there's not a spent case in the chamber then load a fresh mag and get back on target.

ETA that there's nothing 'wrong' with SPORTS, it's just that TRA is faster, can be performed without taking the firing hand off the grip and it handles the majority of problems.

[Submariner]

There is a school of thought that PUSH/PULL is used rather than TAP to ensure the magazine is properly seated.:D

[Hoplophile]

There is a school of thought that PUSH/PULL is used rather than TAP to ensure the magazine is properly seated.:D
I did descibe it as "make sure the mag is fully seated" and "tap, rack, bang" sounds better than "push/pull, rack, assess" regardless of which is more technically accurate.

[KevinB]

TRB (Tap Rack Bang)

While I think Push Pull works for intial loading, I dont see the use honeslty in trying to get the gun back in the fight.

And Tap does not mean mash the crap out of the mag, as you can cause all sorts of worse issues with that.

[bkb0000]

get a visit from the Ghost o' Posts Past?

[az doug]

The forward assist was one of the things added when the rifle went from the M-16 to the M-16 A1. Remember, the Military thought the M-16 did not need to be cleaned. Due to lack of cleaning kits and proper pm rifles were malfunctioning in Viet Nam. One of the fixes the Army wanted was the forward assist. At that time they taught you to insert mag, release/charge the bolt and strike forward assist twice. This technique was taught when I went basic in 19** (a really long time ago and long before the A2's.) Ok, it was 1973.

[ThirdWatcher]

At that time they taught you to insert mag, release/charge the bolt and strike forward assist twice. This technique was taught when I went basic in 19** (a really long time ago and long before the A2's.) Ok, it was 1973.

I think it all depends on what BCT company you were in. I did Basic at Ft. Leonard Wood in 1973 and we weren't taught to hit the FA, but I knew other guys that were (in my permanent duty station)... or, maybe I had KP the day that subject was addressed. :D

[KevinB]

Sorry for the necropost someone linked to it from another board and I did not see the date stamp - someone kick me.

[DWood]

The info is still good. No expiration date. :)

[bkb0000]

Sorry for the necropost someone linked to it from another board and I did not see the date stamp - someone kick me.

i'm pretty sure everyone gets burned by the linked-thread from 1965 every once in a while.

;)