View Full Version : BCM Fail to Extract Questions
I have a new Mid 16. Let me say so far BCM is working with me on this issue. I think they make a Quality product and service so far has been good. I just would like experiences and opinions with more AR time than me, so that I have a full understanding as what is happening.
When I first shot it ran about 5 rounds with no issues. Then I had some failure to extracts. I tried 3 different mags with the same results. The fired case was still in the chamber as the next round from the mag was trying to feed.
I contacted BCM, and after some trouble shooting they wanted me to send the BCG for them to test. Testing resulted in no failures, and they seem very confident it was the ammo, and requested I try something else. They claim a lot of ammo is sub standard, ie not NAT0 spec 556, may be under powered or standard case sizeing and may not work properly in the weapon. Others have mentioned a lot of ammo now marked as 556 is really 223.
When I received the BCG, I tried several different loads, Independence, Winchester white box, Lake City, and Federal XM193 all 55 grain.
The only ammo that worked with out any problems was the Federal XM193. I had the same failure to extract with all the others. The Independence is supposed to be NATO 556. So Maybe they are on to something.
The other ammo is underpowered compared to the Federal, almost like the difference between a standard vs manum load but I would think if it was an underpower ammo issue I would get a short stroke and/or failure to eject not extract. It seem to me a failure to extract would be related to the extractor. Also if I put one round in the mag and shoot it it will fire, the bolt will lock open on the empty mag and the case is in the chamber, if I hit the bolt release and pull the charging handle back the round will eject.
I know a lot of people that are able to shoot almost anything without any problems in their AR's, 223 or 556 NATO. I have never had another weapon that would not shoot so many different types of ammo So why is this so picky?
Also if the Independance ammo is supposed to be M193, but it does not work, how can I verify that any other ammo that claims to be m193 or any other Mil Spec/NATO stand will work, especially now that ammo is so hard to get. If I had problems with cheap ammo 1 out of 20 I could live with it for plinking as long as I could find something that would work 100% of the time for other purposes, after all thats way I bought the BCM, for all the great reviews. RELIABILITY is Everthing for me.
Any and all experiences comments are greatly appreciated.
MiamiCracker
07-01-13, 19:28
What is your buffer\spring combination?
Knew I forgot something. That was another question I had?
Which buffer and spring do you have? Do you know how to identify your buffer and spring? Is this a factory carbine or some kind of build?
Knew I forgot something. That was another question I had?
Immediate thought is buffer and spring like everyone else...
Did you install the rubber O-ring onto the extractor? If so, remove it. Did you clean the chamber and PROPERLY lube the BCG before shooting it? What kind of lube are you using?
I am curious as to what ammo BCM used. I am guessing maybe M855.
Though, from my experience and some other peoples here, Independence M193 is hotter than Federal XM193. So it should be working if underpowered ammo is your problem.
You stated in your post above, as the title, you run a standard H buffer. That is what I have used without issue. Do you run a standard spring?
Also is this a factory build from BCM? Or upper?
Have you done forward assist, fire, forward assist, fire, forward assist, fire? Did it have the same issue?
Try changing the buffer and spring. A friend had the same problem but it was related to a build involving shortening the barrel and the gas port was not enlarged.
What Do The Spent Cases That Failed To Extract Look Like? Are The Spent Case Rims Deformed? Marks On The Case Walls From Burrs Or Other Obstructions? I Am Wondering If You Have A Tight Chamber, Or Burr, Or Laquer Build Or Similar, Going On In the Chamber. Have You Closely Inspected And Cleaned The Chamber? We Need Pics Of The Spent Cases.
I have a new Mid 16. Let me say so far BCM is working with me on this issue. I think they make a Quality product and service so far has been good. I just would like experiences and opinions with more AR time than me, so that I have a full understanding as what is happening.
When I first shot it ran about 5 rounds with no issues. Then I had some failure to extracts. I tried 3 different mags with the same results. The fired case was still in the chamber as the next round from the mag was trying to feed.
I contacted BCM, and after some trouble shooting they wanted me to send the BCG for them to test. Testing resulted in no failures, and they seem very confident it was the ammo, and requested I try something else. They claim a lot of ammo is sub standard, ie not NAT0 spec 556, may be under powered or standard case sizeing and may not work properly in the weapon. Others have mentioned a lot of ammo now marked as 556 is really 223.
When I received the BCG, I tried several different loads, Independence, Winchester white box, Lake City, and Federal XM193 all 55 grain.
The only ammo that worked with out any problems was the Federal XM193. I had the same failure to extract with all the others. The Independence is supposed to be NATO 556. So Maybe they are on to something.
The other ammo is underpowered compared to the Federal, almost like the difference between a standard vs manum load but I would think if it was an underpower ammo issue I would get a short stroke and/or failure to eject not extract. It seem to me a failure to extract would be related to the extractor. Also if I put one round in the mag and shoot it it will fire, the bolt will lock open on the empty mag and the case is in the chamber, if I hit the bolt release and pull the charging handle back the round will eject.
I know a lot of people that are able to shoot almost anything without any problems in their AR's, 223 or 556 NATO. I have never had another weapon that would not shoot so many different types of ammo So why is this so picky?
Also if the Independance ammo is supposed to be M193, but it does not work, how can I verify that any other ammo that claims to be m193 or any other Mil Spec/NATO stand will work, especially now that ammo is so hard to get. If I had problems with cheap ammo 1 out of 20 I could live with it for plinking as long as I could find something that would work 100% of the time for other purposes, after all thats way I bought the BCM, for all the great reviews. RELIABILITY is Everthing for me.
Any and all experiences comments are greatly appreciated.
Ok, just so we are clear, you have a factory built BCM rifle (MID-16)? Nothing you put together correct??
Assuming this is a factory built gun, it is important to know that BCM shoots a FULL MAG through each gun to ensure reliability. This is more than most any other manufacturer BTW. So if the gun ran at the factory, but not with you, then we have to start looking at ammo as the problem. BCM uses correct 5.56 to test fire their rifles (not reloaded crap like Independence). So ditch this ammo.
Your gun SHOULD run with Winchester .223 (or most other quality .223 manufacturers).
You mention that the round is stuck in the chamber and is not coming out. This usually points to the following:
1. Build up of carbon/powder in the chamber, thusly holding onto the expanded case. So thoroughly clean your chamber.
2. Chamber is out of spec and needs reamed. This would normally be my answer if this was a BM, but since they (BCM) and YOU have shot 5.56 through the gun without issue, then you can throw this idea out.
3. Have the O-ring installed on the extractor insert. This adds tremendous tension and quite honestly should never be used with a middy. So if you have this on the gun, remove it.
4. Extractor claw is full of material. Check it to ensure that it is clean and sharp on the edges.
Last, but not least, check the pressure of the gun. Load ONE ROUND into a mag. Chamber said round and fire it. Did the bolt lock back to the rear? If yes, then your pressure is fine so DON'T mess with the spring or buffer.
C4
I'm curious as to why so many fellas here think his extraction issue has anything to do with the buffer/spring??? I don't see how his buffer/spring combo would cause a failure to extract. :confused:
Put 3 rounds in the chamber and try manually racking the bolt and see if it is extracting. BTW, check the way make sure the mag catch isn't too loose or tight.
This is a factory build, purchased from G&R Tactical as a matter of fact, about a month ago. Grant, thanks for the feedback.
NO O ring, BCM tested BCG and found no problems with it.
I have cleaned the rifle several times so I cant imagine it is a dirty chamber. Even if it was I would think it would cause problems with all ammo.
If I fire 1 round the bolt locks back on an empty mag.
There is NO failure to extract when I load 5 rounds and manually rack the charging handle with any of the ammo, SO WHY ONLY WHEN IT'S FIRED?
I gotta admit I can almost believe it is an ammo issue, but why does the Independace and Winchester not work in mine when so many others can use it? The Winchester IS Factory 223. Like I said the Federal seems like a magnum load compared to the Independance and Winchester.
Are there any marks on the cases that would indicate a burr or obstruction in the chamber? Any spare BCGs you could try?
This is a factory build, purchased from G&R Tactical as a matter of fact, about a month ago. Grant, thanks for the feedback.
NO O ring, BCM tested BCG and found no problems with it.
I have cleaned the rifle several times so I cant imagine it is a dirty chamber. Even if it was I would think it would cause problems with all ammo.
If I fire 1 round the bolt locks back on an empty mag.
There is NO failure to extract when I load 5 rounds and manually rack the charging handle with any of the ammo, SO WHY ONLY WHEN IT'S FIRED?
I gotta admit I can almost believe it is an ammo issue, but why does the Independace and Winchester not work in mine when so many others can use it? The Winchester IS Factory 223. Like I said the Federal seems like a magnum load compared to the Independance and Winchester.
Again, can you post pictures of the spent brass that failed to extract?
Obscenejesster
07-02-13, 23:33
I believe this is a buffer/buffer spring issue. Depending on where you get your rifle, parts like buffers could have been swapped prior to purchase.
Go buy a carbine buffer and standard spring. This is the next trouble shooting step you should take. If everything works out, then just get most of your money back by selling your heavy buffer.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
I believe this is a buffer/buffer spring issue. Depending on where you get your rifle, parts like buffers could have been swapped prior to purchase.
Go buy a carbine buffer and standard spring. This is the next trouble shooting step you should take. If everything works out, then just get most of your money back by selling your heavy buffer.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
The dude already said he bought it from GR Tactical so obviously it was in factory condition when he bought it.
I have a hard time believing ammo is the problem. My two built BCMs eat all sorts of ammo and in over 10k rounds, one rifle choked on Tula and didnt extract twice. Probably because I don't usually clean it so I blamed that on the Tula. Every other ammo I shoot runs fine.
That's just my experience with BCM rifles. Which I guess you asked for OP.
Next thought...if BCM fires a full mag of good 5.56, the OP said the 5.56 he had worked. So maybe that's why it left the factory with a pass but something is wrong and this won't fire all ammo.
I know I wouldn't want a rifle that could only dire a certain type of ammo. I could deal with a rifle not liking a couple brands but not the other way around.
This is a factory build, purchased from G&R Tactical as a matter of fact, about a month ago. Grant, thanks for the feedback.
NO O ring, BCM tested BCG and found no problems with it.
I have cleaned the rifle several times so I cant imagine it is a dirty chamber. Even if it was I would think it would cause problems with all ammo.
If I fire 1 round the bolt locks back on an empty mag.
There is NO failure to extract when I load 5 rounds and manually rack the charging handle with any of the ammo, SO WHY ONLY WHEN IT'S FIRED?
I gotta admit I can almost believe it is an ammo issue, but why does the Independace and Winchester not work in mine when so many others can use it? The Winchester IS Factory 223. Like I said the Federal seems like a magnum load compared to the Independance and Winchester.
Indy ammo is all over the place. You might have a bad batch. No matter what, this is crap ammo and isn't to be trusted.
Without seeing the gun and shooting it, I am hard pressed to troubleshoot it further.
Stick with the ammo that works and let the gun break in and then go back and try some different ammo.
C4
I believe this is a buffer/buffer spring issue. Depending on where you get your rifle, parts like buffers could have been swapped prior to purchase.
Go buy a carbine buffer and standard spring. This is the next trouble shooting step you should take. If everything works out, then just get most of your money back by selling your heavy buffer.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
This is a none issue if the bolt locks back on an empty mag (FYI).
Rifle was purchased from me, so NO parts were swapped. Everything is factory BCM.
C4
Grant, No doubt the rifle is 100% BCM. I understand it is very hard to troubleshoot anyting over the internet not in hand.
Jimbo, I will post pics of spent cases ASAP.
Of course I wanted to hear from someone, " Mine did the exact same thing, and this is what I did to fix it".
At this point BCM's stance is shoot only 556 NATO, and that is the only thing that has been reliable.
My opinion, I should be able to shoot any quality 223 or 556, and I would expect it to shoot most other ammo as well. It is possible I have a substandard lot of Indy, but the WWB is 556, and I know of many people that are able to shoot most ammo of choice with minimal issues, including Indy and forgien CRAP! I am in all my other rifles and pistols. It is very frustrating when peple I know do not understand or care to about the differences in a quality firearm/ammo and are able to run crap out of it with out proper cleaning, and have NO issues!
I am inclined to believe it may be a combination of bad lot of ammo, chamber issue. I will follow up with BCM and continue to test and post updates.
Any ideas why the ammo specs are vey similar with labeled specs, bullet type, weight, velocity, but the Federal seems like a magnum load as compared to the others in reference to felt recoil?
I am somewhat a newbie to the AR's but have been shooting all my life, and consider my self an experienced shooter. With the cost and availabilty of ammo now it make it even harder to troubleshoot.
Thanks for the feedback
I believe this is a buffer/buffer spring issue. Depending on where you get your rifle, parts like buffers could have been swapped prior to purchase.
Go buy a carbine buffer and standard spring. This is the next trouble shooting step you should take. If everything works out, then just get most of your money back by selling your heavy buffer.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
How would a buffer or spring contribute to a failure to extract?
If a rifle fails to extract, I would be looking at either undersize chamber or problem with the extractor. Granted, crappy ammo could play a role, but there's a difference between truly crappy ammo and standard factory stuff like WWB. IMHO, a quality rifle like BCM should at least function with any factory round, .223 or 5.56 NATO. Likewise, cleaning and lube only go so far as to function expectations. Quality rifles with a properly cut chamber and a good BCG ought to be able to function reasonably well without meticulous cleaning or lubrication.
I would start by rehabbing the BCG with a new extractor/spring/insert, maybe adding an O-ring ( http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-Upper-Receiver-Bolt-Carrier-Parts-s/2.htm ). While I was waiting for that rebuild kit to arrive, I would get the chamber measured and reamed if necessary.
Bolt will lock open on an empty mag, but will not extract case when fired, but I can manually extract with bolt. If I load 5-10 rounds in the mag and mannually feed and extract it works as it should.
I also removed the bolt an put a round in the bolt and the extractor grabs the rim and holds it tight.
I really don't understand, the round has enough pressure to lock bolt on empty mag, which seems it would indicate the extractor. BUT it extracts all rounds when they are not fired.
17235
17236
17237
You need to get or borrow another bolt and do the test. I think the issue is the chamber but this will narrow it down.
Bolt will lock open on an empty mag, but will not extract case when fired, but I can manually extract with bolt. If I load 5-10 rounds in the mag and mannually feed and extract it works as it should.
I also removed the bolt an put a round in the bolt and the extractor grabs the rim and holds it tight.
I really don't understand, the round has enough pressure to lock bolt on empty mag, which seems it would indicate the extractor. BUT it extracts all rounds when they are not fired.
17235
17236
17237
Bolt will lock open on an empty mag, but will not extract case when fired, but I can manually extract with bolt. If I load 5-10 rounds in the mag and mannually feed and extract it works as it should.
...
I really don't understand, the round has enough pressure to lock bolt on empty mag, which seems it would indicate the extractor. BUT it extracts all rounds when they are not fired.
So, when the case is fired and expanded, it requires more force than the extractor can handle in order to get it out of the chamber. Unfired cases, therefore dimensionally normal, slide out just fine.
Therefore, bad extractor or undersize chamber. You can replace the entire extractor mechanism for $30, or you can buy a new spring/O-ring/insert for $5. Or, as a quick test, you might be able to find an O-ring to try at your hardware store (they might even have Viton O-rings). Or you can try a borrowed bolt as IG suggests, but my money is on the chamber too.
polymorpheous
07-04-13, 07:51
If it was test fired at the factory, how would a tight chamber not be caught?
Especially where it is excessively tight enough to cause a failure to extract.
If it was test fired at the factory, how would a tight chamber not be caught?
Especially where it is excessively tight enough to cause a failure to extract.
Bingo. On top of this, the OP has ammo that WORKS in the gun (and is 5.56).
C4
Obscenejesster
07-04-13, 08:30
Well, if you figure it out, please let us know what you did to fix it. If you can, just start swapping parts by either borrowing them or buying them. If you still get the same results with different a different BCG or a different buffer then you know it's most likely a chamber issue.
I knew someone who had this same problem and his issue ended up being an over gassed rifle.
I see know reason why your rifle shouldn't be able to shoot good quality 223. A have a BCM upper that has so far ran at least 10 different kinds of ammo. Right now, it has a H2 buffer and a Blue Sprinco Spring and it will cycle Tula steel perfectly.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Well here is the DEAL:
Thanks for everyones feedback, it all really confirms what I knew all along. No one really knows,and it is impossible to fix over the internet.
The only way to test is use ammo in other guns, then start swapping parts, which I do not think I should have to do on a new factory rifle.
I understand there can be a bad anything from the best company in the world. What seperates great companies from good ones is customer service. BCM was fast to respond the first time and test the bolt, but I have not been able to get a response since then. There solution is to use Quality NATO spec 556. They must be 100% sure it is not a chamber issue, without testing it ??
Based on some feedback I can agree the Indy ammo may be an issue, but the WWB 556 and Lake City also?? I know may people that are able to run just about anything. So if it is a chamber issue, why not with all ammo. In any case I have been able to shoot Federal XM193 with no issues at all. So BCM may be right after all.
The reason I bought the BCM was because all of the positive feed back on quality and customer service, I do not feel I am getting now.
I guess it is up to me to prove there is an issue with their rifle, it is not up to them to prove there is not. They have access to more BCM parts than I do. I guess it it up to me to do a complete test and troubleshooting. I will, and I will post results and the ultimate outcome.
I am really disappointed and was planning on doing some quality shooting this weekend, not trying to troubleshoot a rifle from a top teir company.
Thanks again for all the responses!
polymorpheous
07-04-13, 08:40
I got a complete 6920 upper I'd trade you for if you are not happy.
PM me if interested.
Well here is the DEAL:
Thanks for everyones feedback, it all really confirms what I knew all along. No one really knows,and it is impossible to fix over the internet.
The only way to test is use ammo in other guns, then start swapping parts, which I do not think I should have to do on a new factory rifle.
I understand there can be a bad anything from the best company in the world. What seperates great companies from good ones is customer service. BCM was fast to respond the first time and test the bolt, but I have not been able to get a response since then. There solution is to use Quality NATO spec 556. They must be 100% sure it is not a chamber issue, without testing it ??
Based on some feedback I can agree the Indy ammo may be an issue, but the WWB 556 and Lake City also?? I know may people that are able to run just about anything. So if it is a chamber issue, why not with all ammo. In any case I have been able to shoot Federal XM193 with no issues at all. So BCM may be right after all.
The reason I bought the BCM was because all of the positive feed back on quality and customer service, I do not feel I am getting now.
I guess it is up to me to prove there is an issue with their rifle, it is not up to them to prove there is not. They have access to more BCM parts than I do. I guess it it up to me to do a complete test and troubleshooting. I will, and I will post results and the ultimate outcome.
I am really disappointed and was planning on doing some quality shooting this weekend, not trying to troubleshoot a rifle from a top teir company.
Thanks again for all the responses!
I have two rifles with BCM barrels and BCM bolts. Both will shoot anything I put in them. I have occasional failure to lock back with some lower-powered ammo, easily solved with a lighter buffer.
Bingo. On top of this, the OP has ammo that WORKS in the gun (and is 5.56).
C4
Looks like it's too bad they didn't test with other commonly available quality ammo. In .223 for example. Looks like they would have found that the gun doesn't run correctly. I don't buy the argument "only run 5.56 ammo in your gun and it will be fine". I wouldn't buy an AR15 with those kinds of restrictions or disclaimers.
So, is it possible that the higher pressures of 5.56 could overcome a tight chamber whereas the lower pressures of .223 would not?
/
Obscenejesster
07-04-13, 09:19
Looks like it's too bad they didn't test with other commonly available quality ammo. In .223 for example. Looks like they would have found that the gun doesn't run correctly. I don't buy the argument "only run 5.56 ammo in your gun and it will be fine". I wouldn't buy an AR15 with those kinds of restrictions or disclaimers.
So, is it possible that the higher pressures of 5.56 could overcome a tight chamber whereas the lower pressures of .223 would not?
/
From what I've read, they test with an assortment of different rounds including some high pressure rounds.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
BCM uses correct 5.56 to test fire their rifles (not reloaded crap like Independence). So ditch this ammo.
Your gun SHOULD run with Winchester .223 (or most other quality .223 manufacturers).
From what I've read, they test with an assortment of different rounds including some high pressure rounds.
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe Grant knows.
Using a new BCG isn't going to tell you anything. You need to isolate it to its' smallest group. Since we are talking about extraction issues we need to look at the bolt and or chamber.
Well, if you figure it out, please let us know what you did to fix it. If you can, just start swapping parts by either borrowing them or buying them. If you still get the same results with different a different BCG or a different buffer then you know it's most likely a chamber issue.
I knew someone who had this same problem and his issue ended up being an over gassed rifle.
I see know reason why your rifle shouldn't be able to shoot good quality 223. A have a BCM upper that has so far ran at least 10 different kinds of ammo. Right now, it has a H2 buffer and a Blue Sprinco Spring and it will cycle Tula steel perfectly.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
When we talk about Independence ammo we are talking about Federal/Independence,correct? I was under the impression that ammo was factory loaded?
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe Grant knows.
From Midway USA's webiste:
Product Information
Independence Ammunition is loaded to military specifications by one of the best known Israel ammunition manufacturers, who loads ammunition for the Israel Defense Forces. This round was manufactured to give the AR-15 enthusiast a great choice for an affordable round for target shooting, training and practice. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer-primed, reloadable brass cases.
Please Note:While the 5.56x45mm NATO and .223 Remington are interchangeable, the 5.56 is a military round that runs at higher pressures than its .223 counterpart.
Obscenejesster
07-04-13, 10:56
When we talk about Independence ammo we are talking about Federal/Independence,correct? I was under the impression that ammo was factory loaded?
It is. Independence is Israel 5.56 and it's actually pretty decent. I've never had a problem with it.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
And for the record before I am accused of hating on BCM- most of my AR's are built off of BCM stuff to include 2 of my SBR uppers.
I have two rifles with BCM barrels and BCM bolts. Both will shoot anything I put in them. I have occasional failure to lock back with some lower-powered ammo, easily solved with a lighter buffer.
For what it is worth, my BCM (14.5 mid) factory rifle would not consistently extract cheap ammo (Wolf, Tula, Silver Bear maybe) for the first couple hundred rounds. Changed to XM193 (Federal) and increased amount of lube (FrogLube), after 200-300 rounds it now shoots any ammo i feed it with 0 issues. (2k rounds later).
My rifle would do the same thing. Lock bolt back, but fail to extract. Would also extract by hand from mags.
Please Note:While the 5.56x45mm NATO and .223 Remington are interchangeable, the 5.56 is a military round that runs at higher pressures than its .223 counterpart.
Right. How much does the explosion and resultant recoil impulse of a given round aid in its extractability?
Is there some chamber measurement, tighter than spec, where the increased expansion of a fired NATO casing would be overcome by the increased recoil and still be extractable, while a .223 round in the same chamber, with its lesser degree of expansion but lower recoil pulse wouldn't be extractable?
All I know is that what is being described is indicative of a faulty extractor or tight chamber. If he puts another bolt in it, and it does the same thing I would start to focus hard on the barrel/chamber.
My BCM barrel have all fired everything from PMC Bronze Line, Federal M193 and clones, M855 and clones, Hornady Steel TAP and others 100% of the time.
Right. How much does the explosion and resultant recoil impulse of a given round aid in its extractability?
Is there some chamber measurement, tighter than spec, where the increased expansion of a fired NATO casing would be overcome by the increased recoil and still be extractable, while a .223 round in the same chamber, with its lesser degree of expansion but lower recoil pulse wouldn't be extractable?
Is it possible the gas rings might be out of spec?
Obscenejesster
07-04-13, 22:02
Just a couple days ago, someone on THR posted what seems to be the she problem you're having with a BCM BCG.
Looks like a heavier buffer fixed his failure to extract issues.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=721042
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
ScatmanCrothers
07-04-13, 22:56
Just a couple days ago, someone on THR posted what seems to be the she problem you're having with a BCM BCG.
Looks like a heavier buffer fixed his failure to extract issues.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=721042
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
There is so much wrong with that thread and rifle/barrel/ammo in question. THR makes arfcom look like a certified armorers convention.
A heavier buffer could have fixed his issue because he has inferior parts and was running a completely over-gassed AR Stoner barrel, not because he's using a BCM bcg. The op also running a BCM carrier doesn't mean a heavier buffer is his fix.
juliomorris
07-04-13, 23:12
Swap the bcg if it still has a problem check the chamber if the problem goes away get a new bolt or extractors.
Obscenejesster
07-05-13, 00:20
There is so much wrong with that thread and rifle/barrel/ammo in question. THR makes arfcom look like a certified armorers convention.
A heavier buffer could have fixed his issue because he has inferior parts and was running a completely over-gassed AR Stoner barrel, not because he's using a BCM bcg. The op also running a BCM carrier doesn't mean a heavier buffer is his fix.
Yes, I understand it's not just because he's using a BCM BCG. If you read my previous post, you would see that I stated that I've been able to run all ammo types with my BCM BCG's. I'm not trying to say just because it's a BCM BCG that it somehow the same problem. I run BCM BCG's and to be honest, that's what I like the most.
What I was trying to say but it obviously came out the wrong way was..... Everyone in that forum was suggesting he change his Extractor or entire BCG when all along, it had nothing to do with it.
Sometimes things aren't always what they seem. Sometimes it can be hard diagnosing issues over the Internet and all you can do is make suggestions.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
Use process of elimination. Like already said swap the bolt/bcg, if still an issue have the chamber checked. I doubt this is the issue but I would also try with and without an o-ring on the extractor spring before swapping out the bolt/bcg. Again I doubt this is the issue but swap buffers too. It wouldn't hurt to put a couple hundred rounds through it with the ammo that did work.
Your best bet would be to get it checked out.
I agree with the tight chamber is the problem (Dwell time) Cartridge is still expanded when bolt is trying to extract. A heavier buff may get it slowed down enough to allow exatraction but your not solving the problem. BCM says its ok so they will not correct a problem they say isn't there. So the only option you have is to get a chamber reamer an do it yourself. Fire enough of the ammo that works to get it broke in enough to function with other ammo /sell it a cut your losses. :rolleyes:
dmfisher71
07-05-13, 19:12
my bcg done this EXACT same thing (mine is also a BCM) when i built mine i used the paste style frog lube took it out to fire it the next weekend and this same thing happen i also tried several different loads and mags.... but nothing woulf feed and discharge correctly.... had to completely disassemble the bcg cleaned it all with rubbing alcohol as well as the upper receiver.... then used the liquid style frog lube and has not had an issue since i have fired about 800 rounds with no problem
I am very curious to hear how this gets resolved.
I had persistent extraction issues in my Daniel Defense barrel with a FailZero BCG, that were immediately solved by using BCM extractor spring (no O-ring necessary).
Seeing as how this is a factory BCM, I would assume the extractor spring is a stiff BCM one.
I know some people have suggested using a lighter buffer and spring, but wouldn't using a heavier buffer and stiffer spring make more sense (to slow down the BCG velocity, reducing stress on the extractor).
American2013
07-06-13, 11:08
If the head space and gas tube is ok and no leaks, then your extractor and timing is an issue. Your machine is under gassed right now. What worked for me with same problem was I bought a new Young NM BCG! The original bcg i had - had a small gas leak issue that no one detected not even the mfg. they shoot 5.56 so the gas increase compensated for the small loss and did not detect an issue at the factory. Also, put the o-ring back in the extractor as it has a better grip on the casing when used. It is your BCG as long as your gas system is ok. Once you change the bcg you will find your system is over gassed now so go with an H2 buffer with your new bcg and watch the cycle and where your round eject. A 3:30 eject is perfect. Overgassed will eject forward and undergassed will eject way back. Buy a new one and return the bad one! I guarantee this will work and you will be able to shoot anything as it should be! You are probably losing gas due to poor BCG and every once in awhile even the best mfg have some issues.
American2013
07-06-13, 11:54
I am very curious to hear how this gets resolved.
I had persistent extraction issues in my Daniel Defense barrel with a FailZero BCG, that were immediately solved by using BCM extractor spring (no O-ring necessary).
Seeing as how this is a factory BCM, I would assume the extractor spring is a stiff BCM one.
I know some people have suggested using a lighter buffer and spring, but wouldn't using a heavier buffer and stiffer spring make more sense (to slow down the BCG velocity, reducing stress on the extractor).
This issue was due to bolt extractor so again we see bcg issue. A carbine should be over gassed by nature and it gets less so with mid size etc. Changing the extractor was smart indeed. If the headspace and gas tube are good then everything else will fall to the bcg. 90% of all issues will be the bcg IMHO. Buffer weight should only be used to fine tune the weapon only. Cutting springs means you are under gassed and have other issues ( usually the bcg). The AR design is good as it is (no need to cut parts,, ever) but sometimes you just need to swap a part or two usually related to the bcg. Just my two cents anyway!
Let me try and provide some troubleshooting 101 here. Until the OP tries another bolt, everyone is simply pissing in the pool to raise the water level.
When troubleshooting, you first need to understand what is happening. That means the cycle of operation. When the OP made his post, he indicated that the round was not extracting from the chamber and another round was feeding into it. This is a classic sign of either a bad extractor or a tight chamber.
This means we have to start at the basic level. Clean the chamber and check the extractor spring. If it is "mushy" then the spring is worn. I would also check the extractor lip.
If everything is good-proceed to the next step. I would get some dummy rounds and attempt to cycle and extract them through. If it passes then we need to dig deeper. If it fails- considering the weapon is "cold" and the rounds haven't expanded in the chamber I would start to think barrel.
But, we need to rule that out so we take another known quantity (in this case a bolt) and we test fire it. If it extracts then one must assume that the extractor/bolt is defective. At which time we can narrow it down further by changing the extractor spring assembly.
If it fails to extract with the new bolt then I would start to think the barrel/chamber. At this point I would then contact BCM again- and I would fully explain in the English language in a way that can be comprehended what you did to troubleshoot it and then send the entire original upper/BCG back. This way they can walk right through the same steps that were performed and see what is wrong.
Unless that port is severely undersized (sure it can happen) then we have to conclude it is the chamber.
The last thing I would do is start dicking with things like springs and buffers because those are simply band aids for the true cause. These changes are generally fine tunings to make it ran better or smoother IMO.
Since there has been many opinions on the cause and fix, I will give a quick recap/update.
The first time I sent the BCG to BCM they tested it, and the main suspect was ammo. They said the weapon was built to run on NATO spec ammo. Everything they used in testing was NATO spec and had no issues. They reccomended trying other NATO Spec ammo and letting them know results.
Well, I ran 20 rounds of Federal XM193F without an issue. I tried the original Indy, that is labed as NATO spec, and FTE. I ran 10 rounds of Winchester White box Q3131 FTE on almost every round. 20 more Federal and NO issues.
Sooo, I am thinking there may?? be something to the ammo issue, but 2 out of 3 don't work ?. If it was not locking bolt on empty mag I could agree underpowered ammo. BUT Indy and WWB 556 labed NATO spec, are both so far out of spec the weapon will not Extract fired rounds? It is Not underpowered. ALSO if it was a chamber issue, why does only Federal function properly?
I think the gun should run just about anything I feed it, 223 or 556 NATO. Limited intermittent issues with crap ammo I could understand, but not the amount and type of issues I am haveing.
I thouroughly cleaned the gun, AGAIN, and was able to run 20 rounds of Indy with no issues, then back to the SOS, FTE on almost every round.
I contacted BCM and they requested I send the upper and BCG for them to look at, even though ammo is a major suspect in cases like this.
So far BCM has been very responsive, I hate to admit it, but I hope they do find a minor adjustment, and send it back fixed so I can run any ammo, have some fun and ROCK N ROLL!
I will post updates after they have looked at it.
That's why you buy BCM,LMT, etc. no matter how good the manufacturer or product, things can and do go wrong sometimes. If something's wrong with the weapon they will stand behind it.
Tonyparson
07-08-13, 21:47
That's why you buy BCM,LMT, etc. no matter how good the manufacturer or product, things can and do go wrong sometimes. If something's wrong with the weapon they will stand behind it.
That's one of the main reasons why I bought a BCM, Top-notch customer service.
Well, I wanted to give yall a quick update.
I am all about customer service for a quality product, and so far it seems BCM is also.
BCM returned my upper, but no explanation as to what they found, but it looks like a new upper/bcg??. I only had time to run about 2 mags, but no problems so far, I was able to fire 7 rounds of the WWB, that FTE on every round previously. So I am hopefull, but I am not getting to excited yet and saying all my problems are over, but it did feel different this time, a little different/ smoother, sometimes it just feels right.
I also sent an email to BCM to find out what the fix was. I would like to know for my peace of mind.
When I get time to spend a day at the range, I will post a follow up.
midSCarolina
07-31-13, 08:45
Glad to hear it worked out... I really respect the people over at BCM for how they deal with their customers. Definitely let us know what they said the issue was because I was kinda baffled by it.
Well, I finally got a chance to run a few more rounds, not enough but it will have to do for now.
I ran about 300 rounds, mixed brands, mostly the Indy 193, and NOT 1 FTE. slow fire, double/triple and full mags as fast as I could pull the trigger! This thing ran like it should. So I think its safe to assume the problem is fixed.
I will say BCM fixed the issue, they stand behind their product and made it work! and that is very important to me.
I am very interested as to what the original problem was, obviously NOT ammo. This issue had a lot of us guessing, and we still will be. BUT it works now and I guess thats all that really matters.
This is BCM's response to what the problem was and what they did to fix it. "We inspected, repaired and replaced parts as necessary, test fired and you should be good to go. Let us know your results at the range. Enjoy! Keep shooting!"
So there you have it!
Thanks again for all the repsonses.
The probably did as IG laid out and isolated and fixed the issue.;)
Well, I got a chance to shoot some more. I was taking my time and really trying to dial this thing in. It has been a long time since I shot irons, BIG difference between 25-50 yds and 100, but I will get there. Anyway I know the gun is good anything else is me.
Then it happened, I pulled the trigger and NOTHING! Then I noticed the bolt was locked open, out of ammo. SOOO, I stared to have some real fun. double, triple, 10, then full mags. Then I ran the HELL out of it.
It is amazing how fast 500 rounds go, with NO PROBLEMS. I was like a monkey on crack. I shot all Indy with no problems. I have a bunch of mixed stuff, that I want to run just to see how it handles it.
The only other problem, is I am now looking into other options for this as well as different AR configs. WOW, I thought pistol shooting was addictive, it is, but I guess the bottom line is I JUST LOVE TO SHOOT!
I will post an update, with those results as well, if anyone cares.
Thanks again for all the responses.
F-Trooper05
09-14-13, 23:26
Just curious if the OP ever heard back from BCM as to what the culprit was? Extractor? Chamber?...
Just curious if the OP ever heard back from BCM as to what the culprit was? Extractor? Chamber?...
This is what was posted above. The only response he received.
This is BCM's response to what the problem was and what they did to fix it. "We inspected, repaired and replaced parts as necessary, test fired and you should be good to go. Let us know your results at the range. Enjoy! Keep shooting!"
So there you have it!
Thanks again for all the repsonses.
My ammo testing is complete. Based on the wierd FTE issues I originally had, I wanted to make sure I was able shoot any ammo I was able to get. I have shot cheap/NOT Quality ammo in many pistols and rifles and thought I should be able to do the same in my High Quality AR. Some is MUCH better than others but reliability should be 99% with the worst shit out there, and 100% with anything I would ever consider for SD/Hunting.
The results after BCM's final fix:
I was able to run everything I could get my hands on, including the much hated Steel case junk, and almost every other brand of brass ammo, 223 and 556. I would not think twice about purchasing anything I got a very good deal on. Now that I can shoot anything, like I thought I should be able to, the fun part will be finding the ammo of my choice. I guess I will just to have to keep shooting.
Thanks again for everyones comments/opinions/help.
Safe shooting to all.
Plumber237
10-02-13, 12:51
bjxds, did this issue start right off the bat with your rifle? The only reason I ask is that I'm having that same issue with a newer BCM m4 upper that I recently installed, but it's just started having FTE's in the last 400 rounds or so (1,057 through the upper). The BCM bolt I'm using has nearly 3,400 rounds fired with it and has never had a single problem until now. I had one FTE on a range trip with federal 193, detail cleaned the extractor and bolt, and this Monday had 2 more FTE's, the round that tried feeding behind the FTE round was dented to shit...making me think it was maybe my metal mags. I'm going to try pmags next week, and if they're still FTE's I'm going to detail clean the bcg (again) and the chamber and see if that works. Reading this thread makes me nervous that it could be the chamber, especially since you never had issues with 193 before the fix.
My problem was with a brand new factory build.
Plumber237
10-02-13, 18:29
Thanks, if your problems started immediately that makes me think it's not my chamber, since my first issue was about round 650. The extractor and spring looked/felt fine, so hopefully I've just got a burr in the chamber...I'll have to do some investigating. I've also got a complete BCM bcg that's never been fired that I can swap in to narrow down the problem.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.