View Full Version : M&P9 barrel saga
I recently picked up a new M&P9 (Ser # HAHxxxx), as it was of post July 2012 production, I assumed it had a new barrel. Mark Housel put an RMR02 on it and I added the normal stippling, Apex Duty Kit, and Catalyst mag release:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9ambiRMR02_zpseec933f2.jpg
Then I went to shoot it with Fed AE9FP 147 gr FMJ. Even when shot from the bench off sandbags, I still got 2-3 flyers in every 10 shot group at 25 yds:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/newMampP9OEMbarrel25yds_zpsa185e166.jpg
Thinking I might not know how to shoot anymore, I grabbed the G19 w/RMR02 and OEM barrel I carried all last year and shot a 10 rd group at 25 yds. I quickly realized there was a problem with the M&P9, not me, as the G19 shot fine:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/G19OEMbarrel25yds_zps2e86bf36.jpg
Grabbed a known good older 1/18 twist M&P9 upper assembly I had and dropped it on the new lower--shot a bit better:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/oldMampP9OEMbarrel25yds_zps7dd7b573.jpg
Next, tried putting a KKM drop-in barrel I had lying around in the new M&P9:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/newMampP9KKMbarrel25yds_zps2a25b807.jpg
Shot pretty good, so this is what I used at the recent Ken Hackathorn class: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=133869
Now I was still curious why the M&P9 shot so badly with the OEM barrel. After looking at it, I noticed there was no dimple on the underside of the barrel--thus indicating an older 1/18 twist barrel, as shown by Hilton Yam at MSW: http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3719 Careful inspection of twist rate indicated it was an old 1/18 twist barrel.
S&W was kind enough to send me a new 1/10 twist M&P9 barrel w/dimple to replace the older 1/18 barrel that some how inadvertently had been put in my pistol as it was being built.
When I tried the new 1/10 twist OEM replacement barrel in my new M&P9, the results were not ideal despite trying several groups:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/newMampP91-10OEMbarrel25yds2_zpsb5b350e2.jpg
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/newMampP91-10OEMbarrel25yds_zps17b9f750.jpg
Finally I dropped the KKM barrel back in and got a reasonable group:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/newMampP9KKMbarrel25yds2_zpse1e5d509.jpg
Bizzarre...
Threads like this make me want to use HK pistols.
I did not know about the dimple on the barrel... checked my 2013 9L CORE and it has the dimple. Haven't shot with a sandbag though.
legumeofterror
07-02-13, 06:58
So Smith and Wesson continues to produce a sub-par product that people spend nearly the purchase price of in parts to bring up to the standards of other companys' stock handguns. I don't understand why some of you people bother with the things.
So Smith and Wesson continues to produce a sub-par product that people spend nearly the purchase price of in parts to bring up to the standards of other companys' stock handguns. I don't understand why some of you people bother with the things.
Besides a barrel, what do you mean?
I bought a M&P9 online through Bud's back in February. I really wanted to try platform based on the many positive reviews .....and I wanted a US made gun from a US company....so I took a chance.
I was hoping production had moved along such that I would get a newly manufactured gun. The gun I received was made in April '12 and exhibited the same accuracy issues described above.
I shot the same ammo through my P228 and XD9 subcompact and both guns outshot the M&P by a wide margin.
After researching what it would take to get acceptable accuracy and the possible wait times for parts, I decided to sell it rather than put another $400 into the gun.
I was getting about 5-6 inch groups from my M&P9L (5 inch barrel) with DCAEK from a sandbag rest at 25 yards. After getting a Storm Lake barrel fitted, I took it out and shot it again from a sandbag at 25 yards. On the target below, I started in the 3 inch dot in the lower left and worked counterclockwise around the the one in the upper left corner. I had been shooting my Glock so it took me a few rounds to get back some trigger control on the M&P. By the time I got around to the last red dot, I was confident enough in the pistol to put an entire 20 round magazine in the last red dot. I'm pleased with the results, but it took me $270 to get the thing to be a functional pistol. Between this gun and my Glock 19 with BTF option, I've become a fan of the Walther PPQ.
http://SSEquine.net/9mmtarget.jpg
Besides a barrel, what do you mean?
Probably the trigger. The early M&P9s have a gritty feeling trigger with a false reset. During the trigger return, it feels and clicks like the trigger has reset but has not. You have to almost fully return the trigger past a second detent before it actually resets.
Many people don't seem to mind it, especially if it is their only gun or their primary choice for a gun. I chose not to work around it.
It is not the barrel twist, plenty of slow twist barrels (the KKM is 1-24") have proved that in competition pistols with all kind of loads. Some barrel or twist may go better with some bullets/loads, that is of course normal, but the differences are not normally large.
It must be the barrel fit or locking geometry... if there is vertical stringing then almost surely there is an early unlocking problem.
Probably the trigger. The early M&P9s have a gritty feeling trigger with a false reset. During the trigger return, it feels and clicks like the trigger has reset but has not. You have to almost fully return the trigger past a second detent before it actually resets.
Many people don't seem to mind it, especially if it is their only gun or their primary choice for a gun. I chose not to work around it.
The trigger issues have largely been fixed in recent years. You'll always get a better trigger by going after market, but it's perfectly usable without a trigger upgrade.
legumeofterror
07-02-13, 08:03
Besides a barrel, what do you mean?
They made the pistol out stainless steel (and not a particularly good one either), simply because that are heavily invested in stainless production from thier decision to esentially drop blued revolvers a number of years ago. They then felt it was a good idea to treat the steel with a process that eliminates its "stainless" properties and had problems with rust.
The triggers more often than not are garbage when compared to other service pistols in the same price range. It is bad enough that Apex parts are treated like an essential purchase.
They chose a poor rifling twist rate simply because that was what they used on thier revolvers and they had the tooling on hand. That coupled with the fact that they seem to be incapable of consistently producing handguns with proper lock times leads to shit accuracy.
The M&P really has little to offer over other handguns, and was never that great, which is a dissapointment to me as I habe always admired S&W and own more of.thier firearms than i do any other manufacturer. I could see no real reson to buy one over Glock or Walther products when they were first released, and that still holds true.
The trigger issues have largely been fixed in recent years.
Pluralizing years may be a stretch as my April 2012 made pistol had the horrible trigger.
My comparably priced XD9sc (3") had a much better trigger as did my Glock. There is no reason such a poor trigger was shipped on the M&Ps.
Anything is workable if you lower your standards enough....
The very late 2012 and 2013 made guns may very well be fine but the older guns are still making it to market as new sales and is still a valid concern for those looking to buy.
It is not the barrel twist, plenty of slow twist barrels (the KKM is 1-24") have proved that in competition pistols with all kind of loads. Some barrel or twist may go better with some bullets/loads, that is of course normal, but the differences are not normally large.
It must be the barrel fit or locking geometry... if there is vertical stringing then almost surely there is an early unlocking problem.
This. Twist rate REALLY doesn't matter (within reason). It is the lock up that matters.
So Doc, the reason why you are getting those groups is because there is too much play between your slide and your barrel.
C4
Just checked mine, serial HAVxxxx and the barrel has two dimples.
Interesting.
They made the pistol out stainless steel (and not a particularly good one either), simply because that are heavily invested in stainless production from thier decision to esentially drop blued revolvers a number of years ago. They then felt it was a good idea to treat the steel with a process that eliminates its "stainless" properties and had problems with rust.
The triggers more often than not are garbage when compared to other service pistols in the same price range. It is bad enough that Apex parts are treated like an essential purchase.
They chose a poor rifling twist rate simply because that was what they used on thier revolvers and they had the tooling on hand. That coupled with the fact that they seem to be incapable of consistently producing handguns with proper lock times leads to shit accuracy.
The M&P really has little to offer over other handguns, and was never that great, which is a dissapointment to me as I habe always admired S&W and own more of.thier firearms than i do any other manufacturer. I could see no real reson to buy one over Glock or Walther products when they were first released, and that still holds true.
On top of that the rear sight needs to be removed to completely breakdown the slide. :o:rolleyes:
These are the reasons I sold my M&P 9. I shouldn't have to have to spend money to fix the trigger and barrel issues. I'll just stick to pre-2009 Glocks.
On top of that the rear sight needs to be removed to completely breakdown the slide. :o:rolleyes:
That is easy. I remove them every day. ;)
These are the reasons I sold my M&P 9. I shouldn't have to have to spend money to fix the trigger and barrel issues. I'll just stick to pre-2009 Glocks.
As a fellow GEN 2 and early GEN 3 Glock fan, they aren't without their own issues. Where as the M&P has accuracy issues, GEN 2 Glocks had reliability issues and GEN 3's (FTF with weapon mounted lights).
End of the story is that most all firearms have an issue of some kind. The consumer has to evaluate which ones matter more and buy accordingly.
C4
I view the following as "must haves" for an AR, not including sling nor rail mounted accessories:
Geissele family or KAC trigger
Magpul or KAC trigger guard
Gunfighter or raptor charging handle
BAD safety
The standard Colt 6920 "needs" most of these upgrades. It'll work without them and in the end, you may not see a real difference in performance for most people. But I change out the above pretty much instantly if it doesn't come with them.
The m&p is nice with an apex kit. But it works without it. And if I didn't have apex upgrades, I could still place rounds quickly on target.
Which brings us back to the barrel being the major problem of the m&p.
I was getting about 5-6 inch groups from my M&P9L (5 inch barrel) with DCAEK from a sandbag rest at 25 yards. After getting a Storm Lake barrel fitted, I took it out and shot it again from a sandbag at 25 yards. On the target below, I started in the 3 inch dot in the lower left and worked counterclockwise around the the one in the upper left corner. I had been shooting my Glock so it took me a few rounds to get back some trigger control on the M&P. By the time I got around to the last red dot, I was confident enough in the pistol to put an entire 20 round magazine in the last red dot. I'm pleased with the results, but it took me $270 to get the thing to be a functional pistol. Between this gun and my Glock 19 with BTF option, I've become a fan of the Walther PPQ.
Where did you find the 20 round magazine? I did not know there were such a thing for the M&Ps.
theblackknight
07-02-13, 10:48
I'm seriously planning a trade in of my M&P's. The new "improved" triggers are still gritty.
legumeofterror
07-02-13, 10:49
I view the following as "must haves" for an AR, not including sling nor rail mounted accessories:
Geissele family or KAC trigger
Magpul or KAC trigger guard
Gunfighter or raptor charging handle
BAD safety
The standard Colt 6920 "needs" most of these upgrades. It'll work without them and in the end, you may not see a real difference in performance for most people. But I change out the above pretty much instantly if it doesn't come with them.
The m&p is nice with an apex kit. But it works without it. And if I didn't have apex upgrades, I could still place rounds quickly on target.
Which brings us back to the barrel being the major problem of the m&p.
Now pretend that there are rifles that can be bought for the same money that have all those things already and dont have intermittent manufacturing/ inherant design defects that negatively effect accuracy...
Why would I give S&W $500 when i can give it to say, Walther, and have a pistol that isnt balls out of the box?
Now pretend that there are rifles that can be bought for the same money that have all those things already and dont have intermittent manufacturing/ inherant design defects that negatively effect accuracy...
Why would I give S&W $500 when i can give it to say, Walther, and have a pistol that isnt balls out of the box?
That's what I thought as well; however the PPQ just wasn't for me. So I went with Grant's fitted barrel and all is now well.
legumeofterror
07-02-13, 11:02
Walthet was just an example. They can consistently produce an excellent product for the same money, imported even, but S&W gets a pass with what amounts to a sub par offering. People here shit on AR15s for less.
S&W hasnt produced a decent centerfire autoloader since the 39/59 series.
Where did you find the 20 round magazine? I did not know there were such a thing for the M&Ps.
Arredondo extension. Adds 5 rounds.
http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1001,2015&PID=gg13l5513ivuxy&GID=SWPB
http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/images/gg13l5513ivuxy.jpg
Now pretend that there are rifles that can be bought for the same money that have all those things already and dont have intermittent manufacturing/ inherant design defects that negatively effect accuracy...
Why would I give S&W $500 when i can give it to say, Walther, and have a pistol that isnt balls out of the box?
Except that analogy doesn't work because pistols don't come with everything I want without costing an arm and a leg. Since I'll be doing minor modifications anyway, regardless of pistol, and that those modifications happen to fix all the "problems" of the m&p, I can buy American (not Austrian/German) with a great warranty and take advantage of excellent after market support and ergonomics out of the box.
Except that analogy doesn't work because pistols don't come with everything I want without costing an arm and a leg.
You don't want an acceptably accurate handgun from the factory?
with a great warranty
How many customers were getting new barrels under warranty that fixed the problem? Or, how experienced with their warranty service are you if you fixed everything yourself?
Walthet was just an example. They can consistently produce an excellent product for the same money, imported even, but S&W gets a pass with what amounts to a sub par offering. People here shit on AR15s for less.
S&W hasnt produced a decent centerfire autoloader since the 39/59 series.
As a Walther PPQ fan, it does have its issues. Sights are just a thought that comes to mind. Parts?
Here is how I look at it. M&P's run between $430-$450. With user polish work, the trigger can be pretty good. For $70 dollars, it can be awesome! The barrel accuracy has been a problem, but from my 30 + examples in my shop, the fit of the barrels is good.
Couple this with the fact that there are tons of options for sights, holsters, parts, etc. Lastly, the CT laser grips fit and work the best in the M&P (only second to say the 1911). This is a big deal to me as I fully grasp the advantages that they bring to the fight (specifically in low light room clearing).
C4
GLOCKMASTER
07-02-13, 12:33
It's amazing that S&W can't get the M&P platform right. It has potential to be one of the best pistol platforms but, it seems like the engineers just will not listen. S&W is in the process of performing a warranty replacement of 1800+ pistols at my old agency because of accuracy, reliability and rust issues. I have shot a replacement M&P and I will have to say the accuracy and trigger is ten times better than the older model we were issuing.
Back in '98 or so, I had a Sigma SW9VE and swear S&W dropped that shitty trigger right into the M&P...
You don't want an acceptably accurate handgun from the factory?
I feel like a broken record.
As a Walther PPQ fan, it does have its issues. Sights are just a thought that comes to mind. Parts?
Love my Dawson sights, both the Tritium and fiberoptic. I haven't looked around to see what else is available.
Part's? I called Earl's and picked up a couple of recoil assemblies, striker assembly, trigger return spring, extractor and plunger, some other stuff. $250, everything in stock, I had them a week later.
Love my Dawson sights, both the Tritium and fiberoptic. I haven't looked around to see what else is available.
Part's? I called Earl's and picked up a couple of recoil assemblies, striker assembly, trigger return spring, extractor and plunger, some other stuff. $250, everything in stock, I had them a week later.
Anti-fibers so those are out for me. The popular sights on the market (Trijicon HD, Ameriglo PRO, Heinie, etc) are not available.
One source for parts BLOWS and on top of that Earl's is known for overly high prices.
C4
WickedWillis
07-02-13, 14:51
Walther and S&W are nearly identical.
Now pretend that there are rifles that can be bought for the same money that have all those things already and dont have intermittent manufacturing/ inherant design defects that negatively effect accuracy...
Why would I give S&W $500 when i can give it to say, Walther, and have a pistol that isnt balls out of the box?
I own a dozen M&P's--this is the first one I have purchased that did not shoot accurately as I would like with the OEM barrel.
My three M&P45's shot as accurately right out of the box with the OEM barrel as my custom 1911's that cost over $3000. My M&P40's shoot as accurately as any other .40 pistol I have owned. As I have posted previously, the other M&P9's I own have shot as accurately out of the box with OEM barrels as my 9 mm Glocks with OEM barrels.
theblackknight
07-02-13, 14:59
Walther and S&W are nearly identical.
Have you even dryfired a PPQ?Used the mag release maybe?
Which of these look more like each other?
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/p30/P30_links.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Walther_PPQ.jpg/300px-Walther_PPQ.jpg
http://www.againsttheberm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SW_MP_9mm.jpg
Walther and S&W are nearly identical.
I must disagree. They aren't even close to being the same.
WickedWillis
07-02-13, 15:18
Yes I have dry fired, and fired the PPQ AND The M&P. I trigger felt very similar IMO, and of course the PPQ has the most obnoxious mag realeases. Just throwing my opinion out there, I am sorry I dont think like you do.
Have you even dryfired a PPQ?Used the mag release maybe?
Which of these look more like each other?
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/p30/P30_links.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Walther_PPQ.jpg/300px-Walther_PPQ.jpg
http://www.againsttheberm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SW_MP_9mm.jpg
Yes I have dry fired, and fired the PPQ AND The M&P. I trigger felt very similar IMO, and of course the PPQ has the most obnoxious mag realeases. Just throwing my opinion out there, I am sorry I dont think like you do.
Mag release is a personal preference, but irrelevant since the only version sold in the US these days has the familiar old button release...same as on the M&P.
As to perceiving the M&P's trigger to be similar to the PPQ...wow. That's hard to imagine.
Mag release is a personal preference, but irrelevant since the only version sold in the US these days has the familiar old button release...same as on the M&P.
As to perceiving the M&P's trigger to be similar to the PPQ...wow. That's hard to imagine.
I shot a guys PPQ at the range this past weekend and it did not have the button mag release but was the HK trigger guard style. Not sure if it was an older gun in a configuration no longer available or not but...
Now as for the triggers I completely agree with you; they are nothing alike. Also, I didn't find PPQ's trigger to be the cat's meow that so many people say it is; different strokes for different folks I guess.
WickedWillis
07-02-13, 15:43
Okay you obviously know more on the subject than I do, so could they have changed the triggers for newer models? The one I fired has the old mag release, not the new M&P style one.
Mag release is a personal preference, but irrelevant since the only version sold in the US these days has the familiar old button release...same as on the M&P.
As to perceiving the M&P's trigger to be similar to the PPQ...wow. That's hard to imagine.
Unkle Kurt
07-02-13, 15:53
Between M&P's accuracy issues and crappy trigger and Glock's 9mm Gen4 issues as well as BTF, the PPQ looks great! Hell, the XDM's don't even look that bad. Kinda like a chick with a nice body, cute face, and ganked up teeth.
WickedWillis
07-02-13, 15:58
The Glock Gen 4 issues have been fixed, and people have expressed the fixed issues extensively on these forums. Not every M&P has this "catastrophic, It's a shit gun because of accuracy!" Problem that has been listed. XDM's? Have fun with that one. I could not stand the one I owned. Perfect polymer pistol? Get the H&K P30.
Between M&P's accuracy issues and crappy trigger and Glock's 9mm Gen4 issues as well as BTF, the PPQ looks great! Hell, the XDM's don't even look that bad. Kinda like a chick with a nice body, cute face, and ganked up teeth.
Between this gun and my Glock 19 with BTF option, I've become a fan of the Walther PPQ.
Sounds about like my journey as well. Until I shot my friends Glock and a PPQ I was coming down hard on the "Indian" side of the "Indian Vs. Arrow" argument. What the PPQ did was prove to me that it is not impossible to make a good, reliable pistol that does not cost an arm and a leg. I am not even a half assed gun smith, but I cannot grasp why S&W can't take the time and fix up the lock up (9mm only) and trigger issues. Is it a case of demand being so high that they can't afford the time or don't give a damn? Honestly it shouldn't be this hard, should it?
Discolsure: Yes I am a PPQ kool-aid drinker now. Having said that, the PPQ is not the do all / end all (clost to it though ;) ). Grant touched on the part supply issue. Other things I can come up against the PPQ with are lack of sight options, no reliable laser mount, and the fact that even though Walther says at least 6 to 7000 PPQ M2 mags have been shipped to dealers since 4 June, none of em have showed up yet.
Okay you obviously know more on the subject than I do, so could they have changed the triggers for newer models? The one I fired has the old mag release, not the new M&P style one.
I own both an M&P 9L and a PPQ. The Quick Defense trigger has been part of the PPQ from the beginning. The difference is that the PPQ's striker is fully cocked, not partially-cocked like the M&P or the Glock, so the only thing you're dealing with on the trigger pull is the trigger and disconnector springs. Nice crisp pull, no creep, short positive reset. On the M&P the trigger pull also has to cock the striker the rest of the way before releasing. More creep and potential for grittiness. The newer M&Ps are better, but still not close to the out-of-the-box PPQ.
All PPQs have the paddle release on the trigger guard. At the beginning of the year Walther released the PPQ M2, sold only in the US market. It's identical to the PPQ except the mag release is the USA-familiar button (requires different magazines, which sucks). The switch caused a rather substantial ruckus among PPQ owners. Reportedly, Walther succumbed to the pressure and will soon be importing the PPQ as well as the PPQ-M2.
I paid $525 for my PPQ about a year ago.
theblackknight
07-02-13, 17:09
The trigger on the PPQ is better, and the button mag release is better.
I have a pretty substantial callous from practicing reloads daily with my M&P's due to it's bump guard, which is directly in the way of the thumb, where as the PPQ has a bump guard that works, and isn't between the thumb and button. It and the gen4 mag button are similar is size despite a different shape.
The stupid HK paddle release moves the release further from the thumb. So break grip, or use trigger finger? Both are slower for me. Not sure what I'd gain there.
I also find it funny some people don't have a problem using trigger finger for the mag release on HKs, but bring up the BAD lever and it's"the trigger finger should only do one thing!".
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I use my middle finger for mag release on my PPQ and PPS. I'm marginally faster with it than with a conventional button release mainly because I don't have to break my grip to release the mag. Having said that, I'm completely neutral on the button vs paddle debate. Either way works fine for me
theblackknight
07-02-13, 17:58
Have video of that? Never seen middle finger before
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Have video of that? Never seen middle finger before
sent from mah gun,using my sights
No video. Probably some stuff on YouTube. There is this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=119236
Salamander
07-03-13, 13:42
Threads like this make me want to use HK pistols.
Right. Threads like this are why I'm already using HK pistols.
Tried a Glock. Fail. Tried S&W. Not ready to give up yet, my M&P45 is plenty accurate, but I've had to order an Apex extractor because of recent FTF issues. If that fixes it, fine. But... why should I need to?
I went with the PPQ after a couple of years of "failure to adapt" with a gen2 Glock 19. I failed to successfully adjust from the single action pull of my old XD9 trigger to my particular G19's double action revolver-like pull. I was unable to 100% cure myself of pulling shots to the left under competition stress and that made me uncomfortable using it for self defense.
I tried the M&P and didn't like the hit or miss accuracy I saw in a few friends' examples, its trigger, the way the grip seemed to fight where I wanted my hand placement, or the lack of a mid-size G19 comparable model.
I tried HK P30 and liked it, but was turned off by the price and again, lack of a mid-size model.
The PPQ was a perfect fit. My hands are such that I can more easily release the mag with my trigger finger than I can with the thumb button on a Glock. After the first couple of dry practice runs, releasing the mag felt similar to an AR. The PPQ's accuracy is the best of all the handguns I've owned.
brushy bill
07-04-13, 22:24
I went with the PPQ after a couple of years of "failure to adapt" with a gen2 Glock 19.
The PPQ was a perfect fit. My hands are such that I can more easily release the mag with my trigger finger than I can with the thumb button on a Glock. After the first couple of dry practice runs, releasing the mag felt similar to an AR. The PPQ's accuracy is the best of all the handguns I've owned.
Funny how there doesn't appear to be any negative feedback at least that I've found on the Walther, but Glock and S&W can't pull off the same at a similar price point, not even taking into account exchange rate.
LoneStarM1A
07-04-13, 23:37
Trigger is generally not a problem with an M&P - I shoot a stock M&P better on the clock than HK LEM or stock Glock. Slow fire for groups it's a toss up between all three, pretty much no difference.
The problem is the barrel lock up - I had accuracy problems with a 5" barreled 40 pro. There were wild fliers once every 5 rounds or so just like Doc was getting. Luckily I sent it back, S&W replaced the barrel and made it right. I have 4 other M&P 40's that all shot fine out of the box (average less than 4" 5 shot groups at 25 yards) and continue to do so after thousands of rounds. A pity the 9mm version just isn't as consistent.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Walther_PPQ.jpg/300px-Walther_PPQ.jpg
The PPQ in this pic looks like a Hi-Point to me, IMHO.:p
The PPQ in this pic looks like a Hi-Point to me, IMHO.:p
Who cares what it looks like? People buy Glocks, for god's sake...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Walther_PPQ.jpg/300px-Walther_PPQ.jpg
http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/images/RWD9MMhandgun.jpg
http://www.hk-usa.com/-images/products/p30/P30_links.jpg
Robb Jensen
07-05-13, 07:39
FWIW there are new PPQs with the US style mag catch.
FWIW there are new PPQs with the US style mag catch.
That's the only version that's being imported in the US right now (unless you want to buy the paddle release version from Earl's). Reports are that, due to popular demand, Walther Arms will be importing the paddle release version sometime in the future.
http://cdn2.cheaperthandirt.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Walther-PPQ-M2.jpg
Funny how there doesn't appear to be any negative feedback at least that I've found on the Walther, but Glock and S&W can't pull off the same at a similar price point, not even taking into account exchange rate.
I am a convert to the holy church of the PPQ, but like I, Grant, and others have said, there are some shortcomings with the pistol. However non are mechanical. The main issues with the PPQ are A) Lack of spare parts. It's nigh upon impossible to get spare parts easily B) Night sights. You don't have a lot of choices C) Magazines, yeah everyone is hurting, but Walther seems to be dropping the ball worse than anyone else. Supposedly they've gotten about 7,000 PPQ M2 magazines imported into the US (5,000 of them on 4 June) and a month later they STILL haven't hit retailer shelves. In addition there is one subjective complaint. Some say that the recoil is a bit snappier. I haven't noticed it, but to each their own.
The main issues with the PPQ are A) Lack of spare parts. It's nigh upon impossible to get spare parts easily B) Night sights. You don't have a lot of choices C) Magazines, yeah everyone is hurting, but Walther seems to be dropping the ball worse than anyone else.
I have had NO problems getting spare parts from Earl's. Reportedly he's more expensive but I have nothing to compare to. Presumably, parts will be more cheaply available when Walther Arms infrastructure matures.
I have 14 magazines, both Walther and MR, but I've acquired them a couple at a time by a series of backorders going back almost a year from various places. Magazines are a problem, and I don't see that problem abating much with the upcoming Walther Arms importation of the PPQ.
Parts prices I paid from Earl's a few months ago...
Trigger return spring...$8
Recoil guide rod assembly...$20
Striker assembly...$80
Extractor..$55
Extractor spring...$5
Extractor plunger assembly...$25
Who cares what it looks like? People buy Glocks, for god's sake...
Easy hoss, just trying a little levity.
Easy hoss, just trying a little levity.
Yeah, me too. Guess the lack of a smiley changed the message, huh?
I have had NO problems getting spare parts from Earl's. Reportedly he's more expensive but I have nothing to compare to. Presumably, parts will be more cheaply available when Walther Arms infrastructure matures.
I have 14 magazines, both Walther and MR, but I've acquired them a couple at a time by a series of backorders going back almost a year from various places. Magazines are a problem, and I don't see that problem abating much with the upcoming Walther Arms importation of the PPQ.
Parts prices I paid from Earl's a few months ago...
Trigger return spring...$8
Recoil guide rod assembly...$20
Striker assembly...$80
Extractor..$55
Extractor spring...$5
Extractor plunger assembly...$25
In track what you're saying. A few points though. Walther arms has been in charge of all importation, with the exception of a few models, since 1 January. Included in that 1 Jan group is the PPQ.
As Grant stated, Earl's is a single source supplier. Those prices are only good until he changes his mind. Not saying that Earl would. From all that I have heard he is fair, but things change.
As for the PPQ mags, I'm talking about the M2 mags, of which none have been imported into the US. Due to the change in the M2 you can't use the P99 or MR mags.
I guess this brings up another thought running through my pea sized brain. I realize that Walther Arms is still getting up to speed, but I have to wonder if they aren't in over their heads.
As Grant stated, Earl's is a single source supplier. Those prices are only good until he changes his mind. Not saying that Earl would. From all that I have heard he is fair, but things change.
I have no problem buying from Earl's. They're reliable and helpful. I'll buy from Walther Arms if and when they get their act together. Right now, they're not an option for purchasing parts. You can get a nice Walther golf shirt though. First things first.
I guess this brings up another thought running through my pea sized brain. I realize that Walther Arms is still getting up to speed, but I have to wonder if they aren't in over their heads.
I have no doubt of it. I think virtually all firearms mfgrs and accessory suppliers are in way over their heads. Add the supply/demand issue to the challenges of an entirely new import arrangement only 6 months ago and you have a tough hill to climb in getting your business ramped up without pissing off a lot of customers.
They made the pistol out stainless steel (and not a particularly good one either), simply because that are heavily invested in stainless production from thier decision to esentially drop blued revolvers a number of years ago. They then felt it was a good idea to treat the steel with a process that eliminates its "stainless" properties and had problems with rust.
While this was initially true, it is not an issue with the m&ps made within years.
The triggers more often than not are garbage when compared to other service pistols in the same price range. It is bad enough that Apex parts are treated like an essential purchase.
The triggers are not that bad. Apex, I'm sure is great, I plan on getting one. However, its not like one cannot make hits in reasonable time with the stock triggers, especially the new ones.
They chose a poor rifling twist rate simply because that was what they used on thier revolvers and they had the tooling on hand. That coupled with the fact that they seem to be incapable of consistently producing handguns with proper lock times leads to shit accuracy.
My understanding is that the twist had almost nothing to do with accuracy... but the barrel IS a major issue with the 9mm's(some)
The M&P really has little to offer over other handguns, and was never that great, which is a dissapointment to me as I habe always admired S&W and own more of.thier firearms than i do any other manufacturer. I could see no real reson to buy one over Glock or Walther products when they were first released, and that still holds true.
red = me
Better? I dont know - I would say they are all equal options for each other. S&W has also made right the messed up guns that people have had issues with and posted about.
Its basically another option for a glock. If you want .40, its preffered.
At prices I've seen for your regular citizen, its $70 more to get a 9mm m&p and a storm lake barrel, than a g19 gen4. $70 for 2x the accuracy.
Like any gun, especially g4 glock or m&p 9mms, you buy, you test, you use.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.