View Full Version : Building an AR For Home Defense(tech branch load of questions)
What is the preferred length for an AR that is specifically for HD?
I'm just going to organize this in Q&A form like a good old tech branch letter so it will be easy to answer and also statements, which people should feel free to correct and sound off on.
1. I suspect the best length would most likely be an SBR, but I'm wondering what is the best length/gas system? I don't want something that is pretty much a PDW weapon or so short that it make getting an AR platform kind of pointless. Also for NFA SBRs who are the go to people for those upper?
2. In terms of potential hearing safety, does a suppressor make sense? I am not going to try and put on muffs in an sd situation. I could miss my wife calling, my daughter or a noise from an intruder or that could have just been my cat.
I know a can will add length, but I would think preventing hearing damage and I feel being thrown off but a shot fired inside. I always use earpro so I know it would through me off and beyond the hearing just possibly my eyes from the flash. I also want to make it so that god forbid my wife (who doesn't like guns, more in the don't waste money than any gun control reason) or one of our parents if they are watching my daughter (I will try me give people basic instructions so it won't be a total as you go along situation).
If a can is a good idea what's an economical recommendation for one with noise and flash reduction in a dwelling as the main mission? For cost reasons if I can't swing a suppressor for awhile is it better to just go with it unsupressed for the time being?
3. What type of attachments make the most sense for home protection use? The gun is only for range use or home protection. So I don't need anything (while potentially fun) that is outside that mission. Is iron sights better than optics? If not what are good, but not super high priced optics.
4. Does it make sense to get a stripped lower and have it made into a pistol so I can use a SBR upper (mostly for function and testing) while waiting for paper work? Obviously I'm not having a non pistol lower (even if its never been married to an upper) sitting around with an NFA upper. Should I just get a regular length and just use that for testing till I get a stamp? Honestly I'd rather not have to buy two uppers.
5. Is there a way some can explain what makes a good lower and upper (say noveske, bcm, DD) vs a...lesser one like rguns, polymer ones, etc? I can understand a crappy one is out of spec or damaged, but what makes the best ones the best? Is it more the QA than the actual making or materials (ignoring polymer from the equation). Same with other parts such as lpks, uppers, barrels, etc.
6. I plan to build this over time, what's the best buy order to go with one assuming an NFA build and another assuming a non NFA build? It seems parts and ar supplies are almost back to normal pricing and stockwise. Mags are definitely, and only ammo and reloading stuff being iffy.
7. Speaking of mags and ammo, what do people suggestion for something that might have to be fired in a dwelling? Also can people recommend a practice ammo? I can't afford to just practice only with defensive ammo.
8. Also I don't have a big budget to work with, so I can't go super high end. I want to be able to protect my family, and while I'm not trying to cheap out with the highpoint of ARs to protect my family, I can't go super high end either.
Some additonal facts; I'm left handed and I should add that I live in PA, so NFA weapons (with the apparently exception of explosive DD ammo) is kosher (Le chaim). Currently live in a second floor apt, my bedroom is the room furthest from the front door, our daughters bedroom is a room ahead (so hunker down is not an option in a suspected home invasion...besides I also have to make sure the cat is safe too). Guns are kept in a locked storage locker in the walk in closet. Ammo and mags on a shelf in the walk in closet. The hallway isn't narrow, but maneuverability would be hard with a full size rifle if facing against a wall. The area itself is very safe and a suburb of Philadelphia, but still why not protect yourself when you can.
Our Sheriff is NFA friendly, but I'm also a PA (and NY) licensed attorney, so I'll most likely just do a trust so I don't have to bother with the additional fingerprints. We also have a very strong castle doctrine law, so barring anything bizarre like dragging a guy back into my house and shooting him (which would be murder vs a sticky fact pattern), I'm not worried about using legally owned NFA weapons or if its taken as evidence/confiscated/PD uses it for some...if my family is safe, that's all I care about.
I shoot far better with a rifle than I do a handgun, dramatically so. Only handguns I have are 22 or a 38 S&W gun that the RHKP used to own. Only other rifles are 22lr (m&p 15-22, savage bolt) and an IBM M1 Carbine which is the current HD current and while I love and shoot great with it, its not an optimal pic for reliability and age reasons. I don't want a shotgun. I'd prefer more ammo capacity and less recoil.
Thanks in advance, and apologies if some of the questions have been asked a lot before.
If NFA weapons are within you're grasp than something like a 11.5-12.5 inch barrel with a suppressor attached will still give you a short OAL. Only things besides that for a good defensive carbine would be a RDS(EOTech or Aimpoint) a good white light(Surefire Mini Scout or the like) and a sling. Whatever you chose make sure if its going to be your go to gun you get some training and practice with it. Ideally you wanna shake the gun out to ensure its reliability, if you go with any of the known performers(Colt, BCM, DD,Lmt, Kac or Larue) you can't really go wrong with that setup.
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
Markm, are you missing Rob_s or something?
BTW sweet blaster.
Colt 6933, Aimpoint T-1, Vickers Sling, Surefire 6PX or X300, possibly a quality can(personal decision), and quality ammo. Call it good. Personally, I don't want to SBR a lower, would rather buy a SBR. An SBR from BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, or KAC would also be fine. When I say SBR, I mean b/w 11.5" and 10.3"
Perfection would be a LWRC SBR, right markm?
BTW sweet blaster.
It's an EXACT replica of what I carried in NAM! :cool:
Right down to the gunfighter grip and pmag.
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
Only thing I'd add to this is a suppressor, because even if I had time to grab my earpro, don't really think my fam would.
NoveskeFan
07-03-13, 18:20
To mirror what kest_01 stated, stay with known quality brands like Noveske, BCM, Daniel Defense, Colt, etc. Barrel no shorter than 10.3". A suppressor will definitely help save hearing indoors. Add a good light, quick optic like an Aimpoint, and a quality sling.
midSCarolina
07-03-13, 18:53
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
I'll take my chances with something that hits a little harder against someone who could have been balls deep in smack and amphetamines all day. 6.8SPC LWRC.... and it isn't loud at all.... i promise :blink: hah. It is actually incredibly loud but a badass weapon nonetheless.
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k558/thornejc23/PSD68.jpg
I would say that a can is not something to get hung up on, while they have their obvious benefits I wouldn't say they are a must. As Dave Grossman details in "On Combat" a very common reported phenomenon is auditory exclusion. Basically what this means is that in a fear induced high stress situation, such as a home invasion, the odds of you actually hearing your shots are very slim. Although not necessarily fear induced the same phenomenon happens regularly with hunters, has happened to me every time. If you have a family however you may still opt for the can, personal choice for you.
An SBR would be a good choice for maneuverability but you're gonna be waiting a while. I have a BCM 14.5 that maneuvers just fine in my house. You gotta remember you're aiming down the hall not shooting from one wall across to the next, does 4" of barrel really make or break your performance?
I would say if you have the means to get an SBR and a can and are willing to wait up to 9 months then do it. Otherwise a 14.5" with a solid light and RDS will prob suit you just fine. Irons are fine as well, but IMO a RDS is easier for my eye to pick up in low light situations even with my light. For your other questions just spend an afternoon reading various posts across the forum and you'll find your answers, good luck.
8. Also I don't have a big budget to work with, so I can't go super high end. I want to be able to protect my family, and while I'm not trying to cheap out with the highpoint of ARs to protect my family, I can't go super high end either.
The above which is attributed to you, is going to solve part of your problem. Your best option is to contact Grant at GandRTactical and get one of his Colt 6920's or BCM carbines. Add a light and a sling and then use that until you can modify your existing weapon.
You don't need a rail and the NFA option isn't practical at this point. Parts are still expensive and you still need to wait 6-8 months for BATFE approval.
https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-isr-300-blackout-integrally-suppressed-rifle-1.html
midSCarolina
07-03-13, 21:05
8. Also I don't have a big budget to work with, so I can't go super high end. I want to be able to protect my family, and while I'm not trying to cheap out with the highpoint of ARs to protect my family, I can't go super high end either.
The above which is attributed to you, is going to solve part of your problem. Your best option is to contact Grant at GandRTactical and get one of his Colt 6920's or BCM carbines. Add a light and a sling and then use that until you can modify your existing weapon.
You don't need a rail and the NFA option isn't practical at this point. Parts are still expensive and you still need to wait 6-8 months for BATFE approval.
Very true... sorry. Anyways my honest suggestion would to not worry about going the SBR route unless you really just want an SBR. The inside of a house isn't somewhat confining but it is nothing so significant that a 16" or 14.5" can't handle it easily. I don't know what your budget is, but LMT, BCM, and Colt are very dependable, high quality, and not overly expensive ARs and would be my personal top picks. If these are priced a little high for you, you can maybe look into PSA since they seem to be fairly cheap but still pretty decent. I would add a KAC RAS M4 (used for like $90-100), an Aimpoint PRO, and a good light (preferably one with the momentary on option since a light kinda gives away your position in a dark house) and that would be it. Obviously optics and rails can be different depending on your preference but this is simply what i would do.
Of course a can would be nice but if you have to deal with an intruder, i don't think the noise will bother you all that much. And a suppressor would add a significant amount of extra cost to the build. Can + SBR = automatic $400 that you are simply handing over to the gov. I had a few friends who refused to wear ear pro over in Iraq/Afghanistan and they seem to be getting along alright at the moment.
It's an EXACT replica of what I carried in NAM! :cool:
Right down to the gunfighter grip and pmag.
Alright that post and the previous "anything else is gay" comment are 2 of the most entertaining comments I've read in quite a while.
Visions of mark in my head at low ready in da jungle with Rolling Stones' Paint It Black In the background. :)
-Jax
Visions of mark in my head at low ready in da jungle with Rolling Stones' Paint It Black In the background. :)
Mix in a little Jimmy Hendrix Along the Watchtower. :cool:
Mix in a little Jimmy Hendrix Along the Watchtower. :cool:
Hey, nothin' but a thang brotha.
ennbeegunny15
07-03-13, 21:20
And a little ccr "run through the jungle" it is nam....
Seriously though OP NFA not considered my HD rifle is a 14.5" middy DD FSB pencil barrel with a BCM Comp Mod 1, & a MOE handguard.
Vltor MUR1A, BCM BCG, Aimloint T1, Surefire M600C (w/clicky tail cap) on a MOE Scout mount which is absolutely fantastic for switch manipulation.
Lower has a Vltor A5 w/a Redi-Mag attached. Very light considering I have an extra mag on board of which I consider a great plus. Normally what you grab in the middle of the night is all that you'll have with you.
-Jax
ETA: Anything else would be considered uncivilized..... or gay. ;)
justin_247
07-03-13, 21:31
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
Honestly, this is pretty much what I was thinking, as well. Even the configuration is dead-on, with the exception of the stock.
If not going the NFA route, a quality 16" carbine or middy from Colt/BCM/DD/LMT, with an Aimpoint PRO and Magpul MOE handguard with a Streamlight TLR-1 attached to it, would be the way to go. Your choice of sling, but the choices from Vickers or VTAC will both do well.
railpig314
07-03-13, 22:28
Hey,
Go to Wally World and get a Colt 6920. It's a lot easier buying a good rifle already put together. I used to think putting rifles together was cool. I just think it's a big hassle now. The Colt is the best bang for the buck IMHO.....
All BS aside, how much money are you actually able to spend on your perfect HD weapon? You're bringing in so many variables into the equation on what might happen, who might shoot it, etc. that's it's almost impossible to determine the best course of action.
gfanikf, I just went through a very similar analysis... I'm even a fellow southpaw. I'm also a total newb, so my advice is not the most valuable on the thread.
That said, the two most important things to add, IMHO, are a light and an Aimpoint.
The speed difference for me, as a newb, between using the Aimpoint and the irons at close range (under 25 yds) is very substantial, even with good lighting. And I can see the Aimpoint dot perfectly in low light. Picking up the irons in the dark is pretty much impossible for me. I looked into night sights, but they kinda suck compared to a red dot.
BCM CQB MOD 0 11.5 SBR- $1025 from G&R Tactical
Tax Stamp- $200
Surefire Mini Suppressor- $1300
Tax Stamp- $200
Wait time for paperwork from BATF- 6 months or more
Total- $2750
You could buy a good 16" carbine for about the same price as the BCM SBR and spend another $1k on an RDS, magazines, ammo, weapon light and sling and have a good house defense rifle at hand almost immediately.
It's also important to remember that good tactics and planning comes before gear. While an SBR with a suppressor may be the best choice for an HD carbine, it doesn't trump planning & tactics. It may be impractical to hole up in your room due to the location of your daughter's room, but that doesn't mean you cannot hole up in her room. It's usually better to plan your tactics around a safe room than it is to go looking for the bad guys alone and without professional room clearing training.
If you experience a break in, it's better to have an unsuppressed 16" carbine now with the risk of minor hearing loss, than to be without anything at all for 6 months or more. Get the 16" carbine first and get it set up with an RDS some mags and ammo and get some training. Once you have that in place, you can set things in motion for the suppressed SBR
Nightvisionary
07-04-13, 03:51
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
If that's a 300 Blackout Im onboard.
Gandrtactical.com Daniel Defense plus Aimpoint Pro would be a good start. Then, shoot the gun.
Eric
If that's a 300 Blackout Im onboard.
Not funny. ;)
Actually though... if you're snorting the 300 USELESS snow flake.. this wouldn't be a bad layout.
I'd go 11.5 SBR. Apparently that provides the best compromise between barrel length and dwell time.
If suppressors were legal here, I'd put one on just on general principles. I would especially want a suppressor if it was a home defense rifle (although my rifles don't play any significant role in my home defense planning). Having said that, hearing protection in a home defense scenario, assuming we're not talking about frequent, protracted firefights, is overblown if you're worried about hearing damage. If you're worried about being overly disoriented by the noise, that's different.
Thanks everyone for the excellent replies everyone. I plan on responding in detail, but I'm currently traveling for the holiday. One thing is that I can't really afford to just grab a Colt 6920 at once...I'd love to honestly, hence my thought about piecemeal purchases and PSA has some really nice upper deals (and lower packages) going on.
I guess as a quick follow up where does PSA usually rank when compared to Colt, DD, etc? I know they are generally well regarded and the barrels are made by FN. One plus with PSA is that it would make getting an optic earlier.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
if you can't afford a rifle for 1200 bucks, then all the questions about SBR's an cans are not applicable to your HD setup. And your jumping way ahead of what you really need to be looking at since your budget is below $1000.
if you can't afford a rifle for 1200 bucks, then all the questions about SBR's an cans are not applicable to your HD setup. And your jumping way ahead of what you really need to be looking at since your budget is below $1000.
Well its long term planning to an extent. I can't do it all at once, but I can over time.
It is possible that I can swing a 6920 if I sell some guns. I guess I just want to know what makes Colt/DD/LMT superior vs PSA. Not saying it isn't just trying to learn more. It makes it easier to part with guns to fund it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
So BCM upper..then save a few more bucks and get whatever lower you can afford. Shoot that, and dream about the SBR and Suppresor after your kid graduates college :smile:
If you can expand a bit on your budget, an AR pistol with a good single point sling might be ideal for you. It can fit into your eventual plans concerning eventually going SBR/suppressed.
Well its long term planning to an extent. I can't do it all at once, but I can over time.
It is possible that I can swing a 6920 if I sell some guns. I guess I just want to know what makes Colt/DD/LMT superior vs PSA. Not saying it isn't just trying to learn more. It makes it easier to part with guns to fund it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
The only valid reason to sell a gun is to fund the purchase of another, so it's OK.
Save up the money over time and sell some guns that don't get enough love.
A half built gun does you no good.
Half the money saved up for a gun can still buy beer.
What makes Porter Cable and DeWalt drills better than Task Dorce and FireStorm?
ennbeegunny15
07-04-13, 15:32
The only valid reason to sell a gun is to fund the purchase of another, so it's OK.
Save up the money over time and sell some guns that don't get enough love.
A half built gun does you no good.
Half the money saved up for a gun can still buy beer.
What makes Porter Cable and DeWalt drills better than Task Dorce and FireStorm?
Good advice. I sold some calibers that I wasn't reloading for and was able to put together a 14.5 carbine using the bcm upper and a stripped lower, psa moe lpk, b5 sopmod stock, it's a kiss rifle under 1200 bucks. Your budget can be obtained if you shop around. I'm just saving for an aimpoint now....
If you can't afford to purchase at once, then the only thing that makes sense is to purchase the components and then build it up.
The first thing I would do is locate a lower (I have seen LMT's for as low as 360.00) complete and then get the upper, etc...
At least half of any home defense budget should go into professional training. Take SouthNarc's AMIS class
(you don't even need live rds. there) or Insights Home Defense (http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=27)
Build the software right now, get the hardware later. Then, after you have you have done that, get a lower receiver and a
used upper by one of the top brands like Colt or BCM. Quality doesn't vanish after 3000 rds of use, but inferior products stay
inferior- and may go tits up in the worst possible moment.
reviews of SouthNarc's class:
http://aar.greygrouptraining.com/2012/05/24/southnarc---amis-jan-28-29-2012---pittsburgh-pa.aspx
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/armed-movement-in-structures-amis-with-southnarc/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmDLV-pB948
Thanks everyone for the excellent replies everyone. I plan on responding in detail, but I'm currently traveling for the holiday. One thing is that I can't really afford to just grab a Colt 6920 at once...I'd love to honestly, hence my thought about piecemeal purchases and PSA has some really nice upper deals (and lower packages) going on.
Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
It's an EXACT replica of what I carried in NAM! :cool:
Right down to the gunfighter grip and pmag.
Pmag in Nam?
Pmag in Nam?
That's where I invented it.
Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
Highly subjective. I'd be worried about overpenetration of walls putting other family members at risk with a shotgun for home defense. If I was to use a long gun for home defense, I'd prefer an AR15.
Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
Oh **** me...
There is not one thing the shotgun does better than the carbine for home defense.
What is the preferred length for an AR that is specifically for HD?
I'm just going to organize this in Q&A form like a good old tech branch letter so it will be easy to answer and also statements, which people should feel free to correct and sound off on.
1. I suspect the best length would most likely be an SBR, but I'm wondering what is the best length/gas system? I don't want something that is pretty much a PDW weapon or so short that it make getting an AR platform kind of pointless. Also for NFA SBRs who are the go to people for those upper?
2. In terms of potential hearing safety, does a suppressor make sense? I am not going to try and put on muffs in an sd situation. I could miss my wife calling, my daughter or a noise from an intruder or that could have just been my cat.
I know a can will add length, but I would think preventing hearing damage and I feel being thrown off but a shot fired inside. I always use earpro so I know it would through me off and beyond the hearing just possibly my eyes from the flash. I also want to make it so that god forbid my wife (who doesn't like guns, more in the don't waste money than any gun control reason) or one of our parents if they are watching my daughter (I will try me give people basic instructions so it won't be a total as you go along situation).
If a can is a good idea what's an economical recommendation for one with noise and flash reduction in a dwelling as the main mission? For cost reasons if I can't swing a suppressor for awhile is it better to just go with it unsupressed for the time being?
3. What type of attachments make the most sense for home protection use? The gun is only for range use or home protection. So I don't need anything (while potentially fun) that is outside that mission. Is iron sights better than optics? If not what are good, but not super high priced optics.
4. Does it make sense to get a stripped lower and have it made into a pistol so I can use a SBR upper (mostly for function and testing) while waiting for paper work? Obviously I'm not having a non pistol lower (even if its never been married to an upper) sitting around with an NFA upper. Should I just get a regular length and just use that for testing till I get a stamp? Honestly I'd rather not have to buy two uppers.
5. Is there a way some can explain what makes a good lower and upper (say noveske, bcm, DD) vs a...lesser one like rguns, polymer ones, etc? I can understand a crappy one is out of spec or damaged, but what makes the best ones the best? Is it more the QA than the actual making or materials (ignoring polymer from the equation). Same with other parts such as lpks, uppers, barrels, etc.
6. I plan to build this over time, what's the best buy order to go with one assuming an NFA build and another assuming a non NFA build? It seems parts and ar supplies are almost back to normal pricing and stockwise. Mags are definitely, and only ammo and reloading stuff being iffy.
7. Speaking of mags and ammo, what do people suggestion for something that might have to be fired in a dwelling? Also can people recommend a practice ammo? I can't afford to just practice only with defensive ammo.
8. Also I don't have a big budget to work with, so I can't go super high end. I want to be able to protect my family, and while I'm not trying to cheap out with the highpoint of ARs to protect my family, I can't go super high end either.
Some additonal facts; I'm left handed and I should add that I live in PA, so NFA weapons (with the apparently exception of explosive DD ammo) is kosher (Le chaim). Currently live in a second floor apt, my bedroom is the room furthest from the front door, our daughters bedroom is a room ahead (so hunker down is not an option in a suspected home invasion...besides I also have to make sure the cat is safe too). Guns are kept in a locked storage locker in the walk in closet. Ammo and mags on a shelf in the walk in closet. The hallway isn't narrow, but maneuverability would be hard with a full size rifle if facing against a wall. The area itself is very safe and a suburb of Philadelphia, but still why not protect yourself when you can.
Our Sheriff is NFA friendly, but I'm also a PA (and NY) licensed attorney, so I'll most likely just do a trust so I don't have to bother with the additional fingerprints. We also have a very strong castle doctrine law, so barring anything bizarre like dragging a guy back into my house and shooting him (which would be murder vs a sticky fact pattern), I'm not worried about using legally owned NFA weapons or if its taken as evidence/confiscated/PD uses it for some...if my family is safe, that's all I care about.
I shoot far better with a rifle than I do a handgun, dramatically so. Only handguns I have are 22 or a 38 S&W gun that the RHKP used to own. Only other rifles are 22lr (m&p 15-22, savage bolt) and an IBM M1 Carbine which is the current HD current and while I love and shoot great with it, its not an optimal pic for reliability and age reasons. I don't want a shotgun. I'd prefer more ammo capacity and less recoil.
Thanks in advance, and apologies if some of the questions have been asked a lot before.
1. The SBR is a great length for a HD gun. I would also suggest a 16" middy as well. So if you do not own an AR, get the 16" first.
The best name in the business for SBR's is Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, KAC, etc.
2. Cans are awesome and highly recommend them. My personal fav is the SF line.
3. 80% of crime happens at night. You do not see well at night. So that means get a quality RDS (Aimpoint, etc) and a weapon mounted light (SF X300 is an excellent choice).
4. Get a 16" AR first and then mess with the SBR thing later. I would also buy a FACTORY BUILT SBR so if there is any problems, the manufacturer will fix it. With a parts build, you are on the hook.
5. Following the TDP. This separates the good from the bad. So stick with the brands I mentioned earlier.
6. If you have never built an AR before. Don't do it. Buy a factory built gun.
7. For defensive ammo, look at the TSX loads put out by BH's and the SPEER GD line. These are barrier blind rounds and GREATLY increase the effective range of the AR (especially SBR's). For training ammo, we sell the Magtech 5.56 line of ammo. Some of the best I have seen on the market to date.
8. Good guns are under $1200. If you cannot swing that. Save your money until you can.
While the above advice is good, here is the best advice I am going to give you. LEARN WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW! Meaning, take pistol and carbine classes. After completing these, take a home defense class. Being in PA, there are TONS of well known, high quality instructors coming into your State (thanks to ShawnL and Alias Training). So take advantage of this FIRST!
C4
Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
Ever fired a shotgun in a shoot house? Ever watched people do it? I have. The SG is SUPER long and hard to navigate tight spaces with (even if you have extensive training on how to maneuver with one).
An auto loading shotgun is NOT more reliable than a quality AR. A pump SG is not more reliable than an AR either (as human error kicks in and causes issues with the cycling of the gun).
C4
It's an EXACT replica of what I carried in NAM! :cool:
Right down to the gunfighter grip and pmag.
Pmag in Nam?
That's where I invented it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RknidSamrRM
Hook, line & sinker :D
Sent via Tapatalk
Hook, line & sinker :D
Used to be like this on ARFcom. No matter how flagrantly sarcastic and over the top absurd a post was... there was always, without fail... someone who would take it seriously. :confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RknidSamrRM
Hook, line & sinker :D
Sent via Tapatalk
LOL...wasn't exatcly serious just laughing about it....good one though:p;)
Ever fired a shotgun in a shoot house? Ever watched people do it? I have. The SG is SUPER long and hard to navigate tight spaces with (even if you have extensive training on how to maneuver with one).
An auto loading shotgun is NOT more reliable than a quality AR. A pump SG is not more reliable than an AR either (as human error kicks in and causes issues with the cycling of the gun).
C4
Understand...was just trying to say...maybe I am wrong but a $400-500 quality SG...thinking Mossberg, Remington is more trouble free than a low grade pieced together same priced AR. Correct?...or not? You have human error in AR's too.
Nope never shot a SG in a house. But many have with an intruder coming in the door and with out exact aim have ended the intrusion. Wouldn't it take greater skill and aim with an AR than a SG?
Understand...was just trying to say...maybe I am wrong but a $400-500 quality SG...thinking Mossberg, Remington is more trouble free than a low grade pieced together same priced AR. Correct?...or not? You have human error in AR's too.
Nope never shot a SG in a house. But many have with an intruder coming in the door and with out exact aim have ended the intrusion. Wouldn't it take greater skill and aim with an AR than a SG?
General guideline (probably a bit generous) is 1" of spread per yard from the end of the barrel. Also depends upon the barrel length- presumably a 14" spreads more than an 18" etc. At typical room sized distances (maybe 9 feet?), you are looking at putting 7-9 pellets (assuming some type of buck) into 3". Your sights are typically a bead (although my Mossy 590-A1 has a cool set of actual sights). That isn't a huge margin for error. If the target is moving, partially obscured by furniture, darkness . . . a lot is working against making the shot. You also cannot make follow-up shots as quickly. Add in the risk of short stroking, reloading in the heat of action . . .
At work I get a choice of a 14" 870 or an MP-5N. I take the MP-5 any day and twice on Sunday.
I won't claim that this is an original thought, but the ubiquitiousness of the shotgun in American households does not make it an ideal fighting long arm. When you look at other engagement scenarios e.g. if you are running an 870 with buck for short range and a target appears at 25 yards, what do you do? Doing the whole transition from one round to another (buck to slug) is a cast iron bitch. Knowing how your weapon patterns with different loads at different distances- increases in complexity factor. If you are intending to fight with a shotgun, I think it is a professional's platform. I would just as soon get expert with the AR platform then work that much harder for a shotgun.
Buy a copy of Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Dynamic Shotgun. I found it an eye opener, especially when you consider the softball shotgun course my agency uses. I didn't realize how much I didn't know until I watched it.
Mossberg 590 or rem 870 $500.00 if the concern for price is a factor.
Understand...was just trying to say...maybe I am wrong but a $400-500 quality SG...thinking Mossberg, Remington is more trouble free than a low grade pieced together same priced AR. Correct?...or not? You have human error in AR's too.
Would I take a good SG over a crappy AR? Ya, probably, but it would have to be a pretty low end AR.
While there are stupid user tricks with an AR, they generally do not happen DURING the firing of the weapon (like they do with a pump SG).
Nope never shot a SG in a house. But many have with an intruder coming in the door and with out exact aim have ended the intrusion. Wouldn't it take greater skill and aim with an AR than a SG?
If it takes just one round, then yes. Once you engage multiple threats or have to make several follow up shots (with a pump), this is when the wheels of the bus come off.
I have seen people miss with a SG at close ranges. One of the reasons for this is they BELIEVE that they do not not have to aim them. This is a lie.
Quite honestly, I rank the SG THIRD on the list behind an AR and a pistol for HD use.
When selecting a HD weapon, the following thoughts SHOULD be going through ones head:
1. Familiarity with weapon (meaning rounds fired and level of training achieved).
2. Length. You do not want a long barrel leading you into every room. So short and compact weapons are a clear winner here.
3. Ability to attach a RDS and a weapon light to (easily).
C4
The more I think about the harder it becomes.
Would I love to use an AR for home defense? Heck yea!
BUT in this politic climate that is California, or for that matter, in most metropolitan areas within CONUS...a SBR M4 with suppressor would create such hell storm that you would end up looking like Zimmerman. Even if the shooting is complete righteous, I mean the media, the lawyers, the extreme groups on left and right, and worst of all, the LAW....the trouble isn't worth the use of a M4 for me PERSONALLY. I repeat personally. So my choice is based on my circumstances and my limitations, I live in a heavily populated area, I do not have acres or large area to defend.
I use a Remington 870 with rifle sights, it was made back in 1967 traded from a local PD, I bought it from a local gun shop, added a SF light and a youth stock, loaded it up with Flightcontrol buck shots, and four Winchester PDX slugs.
This is just my take on carbine vs. shotgun for home defense...of course everyone's mileage may vary...
Would I love to use an AR for home defense? Heck yea!
BUT in this politic climate that is California, or for that matter, in most metropolitan areas within CONUS...a SBR M4 with suppressor would create such hell storm that you would end up looking like Zimmerman. Even if the shooting is complete righteous, I mean the media, the lawyers, the extreme groups on left and right, and worst of all, the LAW....the trouble isn't worth the use of a M4 for me PERSONALLY. I repeat personally. So my choice is based on my circumstances and my limitations, I live in a heavily populated area, I do not have acres or large area to defend.
I use a Remington 870 with rifle sights, it was made back in 1967 traded from a local PD, I bought it from a local gun shop, added a SF light and a youth stock, loaded it up with Flightcontrol buck shots, and four Winchester PDX slugs.
This is just my take on carbine vs. shotgun for home defense...of course everyone's mileage may vary...
Your "oriental" and everyone loves you. So go ahead and use the 50 cal for HD. :D
I hear what you are saying about your commie state and what you might face.
C4
Until they invent my lightsaber, BCM middy 16 inch barrel suppressed is my HD weapon. Sadly no SBR at this time. I have electronic ear pro right next to the AR too.
I wonder sometimes if using the suppressor, ear pro SBR will cause more of a legal hassle, but I would rather hear the orders of LEO when they respond.
BUT in this politic climate that is California
Yeah... no kidding. How DARE YOU violate a criminals rights to victimize you! :lol:
Until they invent my lightsaber, BCM middy 16 inch barrel suppressed is my HD weapon. Sadly no SBR at this time. I have electronic ear pro right next to the AR too.
I wonder sometimes if using the suppressor, ear pro SBR will cause more of a legal hassle, but I would rather hear the orders of LEO when they respond.
Sorry for the off topic comment, but I laughed out loud at your profile name. Those in the know...
Yeah... no kidding. How DARE YOU violate a criminals rights to victimize you! :lol:
PDX does a pretty damn good job at violating the rights of the criminals...
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/clt2/large/photo%20_2_.JPG
I did my research....private testing session conducted by Winchester for a local LE agency.
Grant....Its Ornamental to you...LOL
Thanks for the reply...good points...
General guideline (probably a bit generous) is 1" of spread per yard from the end of the barrel. Also depends upon the barrel length- presumably a 14" spreads more than an 18" etc. At typical room sized distances (maybe 9 feet?), you are looking at putting 7-9 pellets (assuming some type of buck) into 3". Your sights are typically a bead (although my Mossy 590-A1 has a cool set of actual sights). That isn't a huge margin for error. If the target is moving, partially obscured by furniture, darkness . . . a lot is working against making the shot. You also cannot make follow-up shots as quickly. Add in the risk of short stroking, reloading in the heat of action . . .
At work I get a choice of a 14" 870 or an MP-5N. I take the MP-5 any day and twice on Sunday.
I won't claim that this is an original thought, but the ubiquitiousness of the shotgun in American households does not make it an ideal fighting long arm. When you look at other engagement scenarios e.g. if you are running an 870 with buck for short range and a target appears at 25 yards, what do you do? Doing the whole transition from one round to another (buck to slug) is a cast iron bitch. Knowing how your weapon patterns with different loads at different distances- increases in complexity factor. If you are intending to fight with a shotgun, I think it is a professional's platform. I would just as soon get expert with the AR platform then work that much harder for a shotgun.
Buy a copy of Magpul Dynamics' Art of the Dynamic Shotgun. I found it an eye opener, especially when you consider the softball shotgun course my agency uses. I didn't realize how much I didn't know until I watched it.
Thanks...I am taking this all in.
I have a Glock G17 for HD with Streamlight light/lase combo and a Colt AR with RDS and light but have been keeping it in the safe but have thought about having it for HD and Benelli M2 with some HD ammo loaded. No kids so these are easy to get to.
Would I take a good SG over a crappy AR? Ya, probably, but it would have to be a pretty low end AR.
While there are stupid user tricks with an AR, they generally do not happen DURING the firing of the weapon (like they do with a pump SG).
If it takes just one round, then yes. Once you engage multiple threats or have to make several follow up shots (with a pump), this is when the wheels of the bus come off.
I have seen people miss with a SG at close ranges. One of the reasons for this is they BELIEVE that they do not not have to aim them. This is a lie.
Quite honestly, I rank the SG THIRD on the list behind an AR and a pistol for HD use.
When selecting a HD weapon, the following thoughts SHOULD be going through ones head:
1. Familiarity with weapon (meaning rounds fired and level of training achieved).
2. Length. You do not want a long barrel leading you into every room. So short and compact weapons are a clear winner here.
3. Ability to attach a RDS and a weapon light to (easily).
C4
Sorry for the off topic comment, but I laughed out loud at your profile name. Those in the know...
I plan on keeping MY head though. ;)
One could also argue, that your legal and compliant AR is also used everyday by law enforcement to defend them and the citizens day in and day out.
More importantly the question would be was your shooting reasonable and prudent? Zimmerman looks like Zimmerman, because of other factors and the firearm was never called into question.
Would I love to use an AR for home defense? Heck yea!
BUT in this politic climate that is California, or for that matter, in most metropolitan areas within CONUS...a SBR M4 with suppressor would create such hell storm that you would end up looking like Zimmerman. Even if the shooting is complete righteous, I mean the media, the lawyers, the extreme groups on left and right, and worst of all, the LAW....the trouble isn't worth the use of a M4 for me PERSONALLY. I repeat personally. So my choice is based on my circumstances and my limitations, I live in a heavily populated area, I do not have acres or large area to defend.
I use a Remington 870 with rifle sights, it was made back in 1967 traded from a local PD, I bought it from a local gun shop, added a SF light and a youth stock, loaded it up with Flightcontrol buck shots, and four Winchester PDX slugs.
This is just my take on carbine vs. shotgun for home defense...of course everyone's mileage may vary...
Grand58742
07-05-13, 15:17
Until they invent my lightsaber
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid. :D
Probably getting ready to take the SBR plunge myself. I'm completely content and feel well protected with the DD or BCM middy, just thinking it's something that will work out better.
ClearedHot
07-05-13, 15:43
These little guys are very handy indoors. ;)
http://i7.minus.com/ibiwHMqSoasMMc.jpg
Thomas M-4
07-05-13, 16:54
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
What the hell man why do you have a red-dot I thought that was sacrilege for you.. :lol:
Honestly then why get an AR for home defense? For $400-500 you can get a high quality shot gun that would be a more reliable and better home defense weapon.
i agree with you on "something is better than nothing", but he has an M1 Carbine that is the current HD weapon. that will certainly fill the bill until he can piece together an AR.
and he doesn't want to deal with the recoil and low capacity of a shotgun.
don't build your HD gun - buy the major sub-assemblies over time (you won't need any tools other than what you likely have already).
you can buy most of these from G and R Tactical (grant spends a lot of time contributing know-how to folks like us).
IMO, the order presented is the order in which to buy.
learning, $20 (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/subscription)
quality Bolt Carrier Group (LMT, BCM, DD, etc.), $150 - $200 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3759)
charging handle, $27 (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1482)
16in BCM upper, $460 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm).
lube, $8 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SLiP-2000-p/slip2000%2060006.htm)
LMT complete lower, $300 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=L7C2)
(at least) 2 magpul pmags, $13ea (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MAG571)
thread locker, $5 (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm)
rear backup iron sight, $55 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MBUS2R)
magpul handguards, $33 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MOE-HG-MID)
HD ammo, $19/20rds (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-5-56/federal-fusion-msr-223-rem-5-56x45mm-62gr-f223msr1.html)
magpul scout mount for light, $10 (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG403/104)
surefire light, $65 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/SureFire-G2X-Tactical-Single-Output-LED-p/sf-g2x-c-bk.htm)
light ring, quick detach, $32 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Vltor-G-Series-Scout-Mount-p/vltor%20sm-g.htm)
magpul forward sling attachment, $25 (http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG504/104)
sling, $25 (http://www.redi-mag.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=26)
high volume training kit, $279 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/556567/cmmg-rimfire-conversion-kit-ar-15-with-three-26-round-magazines-22-long-rifle-stainless-steel)
ammo for training kit, $23 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/337297/cci-ar-tactical-rimfire-ammunition-22-long-rifle-40-grain-plated-round-nose-box-of-375)
aimpoint pro, $408 (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/aimpoint-patrol-rifle-optic.html)
training classes
training ammo pricing is all over the place. shop online and don't buy less than 100rds at a time. pick any well known manufacturer (yes, even wolf) (http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/). just keep in mind that many ranges restrict steel jacketed ammo use.
As much as I love my SBR, I use my 16 inch BCM for HD because chances are it will get confiscated and crushed regardless of the outcome and I don't want to go through the hassle of getting a tax stamp all over again. Of course they will probably take every weapon in the home anyway so it probably won't matter.
You might want to do a bit of research to see, in the aftermath of self defense shootings in your area, if that's actually true
Grobdriver
07-08-13, 08:07
7. Speaking of mags and ammo, what do people suggestion for something that might have to be fired in a dwelling? Also can people recommend a practice ammo? I can't afford to just practice only with defensive ammo.
For HD ammo in the AR, read up on Dynamic Research Technologies
http://drtammo.com
Frangible, highly effective, no over penetration.
Is what I keep in the mag and a spare.
Feeds fine, these are 55 gr. 5.56 loads.
First off I want to thank everyone for all the advice and help they've given me so far. It has been quite voluminous and still high quality.
JMK's build order has been tremendously helpful, but the first link to Panteao Productions has been extremely helpful and a good way to spend time on my 6hr daily roundtrip commute.
So I think I can provide an update on my finances at the moment and buy options.
Since deciding to sell my M&P 15-22 (hopefully SPF fingers crossed) and Browning Buckmark I may just be able to buy a Colt 6920 off the shelf with only a minimum amount of extra funds committed to the purchase.
That said the buy separately over time option is still attractive for a number of reasons, such as flexibility in the choosing when to get something vs when bills are due, anniversary/birthdays are coming up, or I just want to splurge and buy my daughter something....this latter one is rather easier to do and thus an important concern, I assure you. :) More so the guns I have for sale may not sell or generate enough that I would feel good about buying at once and the amount of money I need to put in.
The important part is I have a lot of options now.
You might want to do a bit of research to see, in the aftermath of self defense shootings in your area, if that's actually true
While not a totally comparable situation (http://articles.mcall.com/2012-03-23/news/mc-montgomery-county-castle-doctrine-shooting-20120323_1_castle-doctrine-montgomery-county-shooting-bats) a self defense shooting outside the home (though being in the driveway, it still is the home legally speaking in PA) against a father and son armed "only" with baseball bats was held to be proper. Granted the attackers did hit the person with a bat first, but in general the fact pattern was far less favorable than say a break in during the night into an occupied dwelling.
For HD ammo in the AR, read up on Dynamic Research Technologies
http://drtammo.com
Frangible, highly effective, no over penetration.
Is what I keep in the mag and a spare.
Feeds fine, these are 55 gr. 5.56 loads.
HUH???
No. There's a whole section on this forum with Terminal Ballistics info Hosted by DocGKR.
Although you'd likely dump an attacker with Frangibles, there are far better defensive options.
For HD ammo Doctor Gary Roberts has a terminal ballistics thread here with great suggestions. Rape the search button. Typically bonded soft point rounds like the Nosler 64gr BSB, Winchester 64gr power point, Federal Fusion 62gr and others come highly recommended as well as the excellent all copper TSX bullets from Barnes. Here are some decent loads. They are pricey and you need to buy enough to test out function and feeding as well as accuracy as well as have enough to use for their intended purpose. Factor that in to your budget
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/615622/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-50-grain-barnes-triple-shock-x-bullet-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-50
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/788183/nosler-defense-ammunition-223-remington-64-grain-bonded-solid-base-box-of-20
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winchester/20-rds-556mm-bonded-winchester-ranger-64gr-jsp-ammo-ra556b
http://www.ssarmory.com/556ammunition-70gr-leadfree.aspx
http://www.ssarmory.com/556ammunition_SSA_PPT_Bonded.aspx
As for overpenetration.... look at it this way, you typically wont have any problems if the metal meets the meat. Seek out training and practice often and efficiently to make sure that happens if god forbid you need to use your weapon in it's intended purpose.
For HD ammo Doctor Gary Roberts has a terminal ballistics thread here with great suggestions. Rape the search button.
It looks like all the Doc thread are gone. :confused:
Some forum DRAMA I missed?:eek:
It looks like all the Doc thread are gone. :confused:
Some forum DRAMA I missed?:eek:
Hmm. I don't ask those questions around here. Last time I did that J Santoro showed up outside in an RV.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdld91TMPK1qe61euo1_500.jpg
Turns out it has to do something with an AAR written by Doc that upset some of the industry Vaginas here. :lol:
****in CLASSIC high school girl drama!
Is it hosted anywhere else (someone can PM a link)? I did find some presentation he did where he recommends ditching compliance with the unsigned by the US, 1899 Hague treaty, which was interesting. Seems he really liked 6.8 SPC.
Is it hosted anywhere else (someone can PM a link)? I did find some presentation he did where he recommends ditching compliance with the unsigned by the US, 1899 Hague treaty, which was interesting. Seems he really liked 6.8 SPC.
I just googled "doctor gary roberts" and found what looks like all the threads in their original article form.
What the hell man why do you have a red-dot I thought that was sacrilege for you.. :lol:
It's experimental. I have two on my guns. C3 and a PRO.
It's experimental. I have two on my guns. C3 and a PRO.
At the same time? How do they co-witness? Do you zero them separately or align one to the other? You could lower 1/3 one of them to the other. That'd be cool! :p
Sent via Tapatalk
It's experimental. I have two on my guns. C3 and a PRO.
That is not the droid you're looking for.
At the same time?
"Guns"... plural. :p
"Guns"... plural. :p
So you do that on more than one... ahh, nevermind. :D
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So you do that on more than one... ahh, nevermind. :D
It's expensive, but having a back up red dot is worth it.
So yeah after watching part Paul Howe's Nightmare Fuel Mix Tape aka Combat Mindset I'll be placing an order for a Colt 6920 tomorrow unless someone can can recommend a substitute purchase.
Also note this isn't anything against Paul or Panteao, but that stuff just seeps in your brain and it isn't going to leave. It's a point of why you can't stop, you can't give up, you can't shut down, or you will wind up dead (and possible your friends and family too).*
I mean I've seen messed up videos, though never with the zeal that some in my generation or earlier ones with Mondo docs or Faces of Death, but I was more angry then grossed out. You know how its ending and nothing can be done to save these people, not a goddamn thing, and I dunno something about it just pisses me off. I dunno maybe its a Jewish thing. lol
Either way, I'm not going to pussyfoot around protecting my family. I mean I'm not losing site that I am lucky to live in a safe area and not Sadr City cira the mid 00s. Still I don't want to ever be stuck in some un winnable situation because I just gave up or figured I can't react in time. Watching my daughter play with her Mega Blocks and figure things out....it makes me want to ensure she keeps getting too.
*Though I don't think it would be fair to say that the victims deserved blame, I mean if your awakened in your village and some dudes beat you unconscious there may be nothing you can do , and I don't think Paul is blaming them per se.
Good choice. It's a minimalist, solid performing carbine right out of the box
Good choice. It's a minimalist, solid performing carbine right out of the box
That's why I'm aiming for, a good standard KISS carbine to start with (granted I did briefly have a DD LWV5 at one point....which I traded away like an idiot in my early gun buying days. :suicide2:
That said I did notice this as in stock at G&R
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C
So BCM or Colt?
Both are good choices. Pick the one you like most
So yeah after watching part Paul Howe's Nightmare Fuel Mix Tape aka Combat Mindset I'll be placing an order for a Colt 6920 tomorrow unless someone can can recommend a substitute purchase.
great choice.
surprisingly, the colt seems to be a bit cheaper than the bcm you ref. and it's complete, whereas the bcm still needs sight, forearm and stock (less to do).
if you can find it, try to get the 6920 that already comes with magpul furniture. it will make mounting light and sling a bunch easier. though there are plenty of non-forearm options for mounts - that's a whole different rabbit hole.
great choice.
surprisingly, the colt seems to be a bit cheaper than the bcm you ref. and it's complete, whereas the bcm still needs sight, forearm and stock (less to do).
if you can find it, try to get the 6920 that already comes with magpul furniture. it will make mounting light and sling a bunch easier. though there are plenty of non-forearm options for mounts - that's a whole different rabbit hole.
Grant has the 6920 with magpul furniture.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920MP-B
great choice.
surprisingly, the colt seems to be a bit cheaper than the bcm you ref. and it's complete, whereas the bcm still needs sight, forearm and stock (less to do).
if you can find it, try to get the 6920 that already comes with magpul furniture. it will make mounting light and sling a bunch easier. though there are plenty of non-forearm options for mounts - that's a whole different rabbit hole.
Yeah that's kind of my thought on the matter too. Its already done and complete, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a good other choice potentially.
Grant has the 6920 with magpul furniture.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LE6920MP-B
Yeah, I did notice that, but I found it for $200 less through another dealer. That said Grant still has the cheapest base 6920s I've seen offered anywhere.
Regardless the ordering might be delayed as it looks like one of the guns I was hoping to sell to fund the project had its buyer drop out (after calling first, then offering a lower price, and then never responding to PMs :suicide2:(on a different site btw, don't think I can even post in the EE yet). The other one has had any takers yet.
Have me in your prayers as I'm trying Armslist next. :lol:
Still I'm optimistic I can move things along within the next two weeks before my Birthday.
So time for an update.
I picked up a Mega Arms Lower locally and a Magpul STR LPK from PSA. Well after doing a botched lower install (lesson here is you kind of really need a vise grip especially when left handed for driving in pins), a friend helped me fix it and well not make it dangerous (long story short I tried switching the selector switch to the other side).
I then picked up a BCM 16 inch mid length upper after passing on the wait from PSA to ship (which to their credit the canceled and refunded with no issues) since BCM was super in stock and shipped right away.
After selling some other stuff I was originally planning on getting an optic (or two stage trigger), but recently BCM lowers popped up again at Rainier Arms. So I sold my blem lower (fully disclosure to the buyer of course) I figured you know if I bothered for the high end upper, get a high end complete lower (assembled by someone other than me). So I'm going to pickup a BCM Complete Lower with M4 Stock. I also had a AIM surplus BCG on order. I figured I'll sell that (it's unused) and just get the BCM BCG and the Ambi Gunfighter Charging handle.
While I'll have to pass on an optic for the moment, I figured having a good base Carbine was key. I can learn the platform and I won't have a frankenAR. In the end I could have just gotten a BCM, but there weren't mid length builds for sale and being able to spread it out made life a lot easier for me. I also picked up Magpul BUS and a Vertical Grip (for the Mid length hand guard)
Actually all you need are the correct punches and a little understanding on how it's done. Vise grip stuff is for people that want to reinvent the wheel.
So time for an update.
I picked up a Mega Arms Lower locally and a Magpul STR LPK from PSA. Well after doing a botched lower install (lesson here is you kind of really need a vise grip especially when left handed for driving in pins), a friend helped me fix it and well not make it dangerous (long story short I tried switching the selector switch to the other side).
I then picked up a BCM 16 inch mid length upper after passing on the wait from PSA to ship (which to their credit the canceled and refunded with no issues) since BCM was super in stock and shipped right away.
After selling some other stuff I was originally planning on getting an optic (or two stage trigger), but recently BCM lowers popped up again at Rainier Arms. So I sold my blem lower (fully disclosure to the buyer of course) I figured you know if I bothered for the high end upper, get a high end complete lower (assembled by someone other than me). So I'm going to pickup a BCM Complete Lower with M4 Stock. I also had a AIM surplus BCG on order. I figured I'll sell that (it's unused) and just get the BCM BCG and the Ambi Gunfighter Charging handle.
While I'll have to pass on an optic for the moment, I figured having a good base Carbine was key. I can learn the platform and I won't have a frankenAR. In the end I could have just gotten a BCM, but there weren't mid length builds for sale and being able to spread it out made life a lot easier for me. I also picked up Magpul BUS and a Vertical Grip (for the Mid length hand guard)
Actually all you need are the correct punches and a little understanding on how it's done. Vise grip stuff is for people that want to reinvent the wheel.
Oh yes.
'Gunz teaches the value of roll pin starter punches in his armorer classes.
They make a world of difference!
This is a home D gun. Anyone who suggests any different is gay.
End of thread.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/magpulstock_zpse7b42810.jpg
markm, what rear sight is that?
Thanks, NYH1.
Actually all you need are the correct punches and a little understanding on how it's done. Vise grip stuff is for people that want to reinvent the wheel.
I tried using a standard set from Amazon that was recommended to me....thank god for Amazon returns. Part of the problem was tools, but enough was just trying to told things in place. Ironically the takedown pin which is apparently a pain was easy. Also thank god for Brownells and the cheap replacement pins....I lost one down a drain...don't ask.
Oh yes.
'Gunz teaches the value of roll pin starter punches in his armorer classes.
They make a world of difference!
I cannot state enough how much I regretted not having them.
markm, what rear sight is that?
Thanks, NYH1.
I'm not markm, but I do play him on TV.
http://www.pophistorydig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/1968-Wayne-boy-270.jpg
I'm willing to bet that is a hacked off carry handle. LMT makes a factory sight like that as well. Only gays buy it from the factory though, men hack off carry handles with their bare hands.
markm, what rear sight is that?
Thanks, NYH1.
I hope you're not in a hurry for a response. Mark hasn't been on M4C awhile now.
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It's a carry handle that he cut down a la the LMT. I have a similar one as well.
My HD :
8.5 inch 300blk suppressed 220gn subs .
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/atepe6yr.jpg
With out suppress , kies muzzle device.
Thumbed from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
My HD :
8.5 inch 300blk suppressed 220gn subs .
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/10/atepe6yr.jpg
With out suppress , kies muzzle device.
Thumbed from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
That is really damn sweet.
That is really damn sweet.
Thanks :-)
Thumbed from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
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